(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)

By Nilroc

5 years ago

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Topic index (key posts)

27 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #2465 Tips on removing the upper playfield Posted by sd_tom (3 years ago)

Post #2474 Photo of the updated divertor Posted by sd_tom (3 years ago)

Post #2477 Photos of new tilt graphics side art for TBL Posted by jGraffix (3 years ago)

Post #2506 Factory visit update! Posted by rubberducks (3 years ago)

Post #2926 DP's response to their issue with ARA and game manufacturing. Posted by JimB (2 years ago)

Post #2971 pinghetto contacts ARA for information regarding the delays Posted by pinghetto (2 years ago)

Post #2973 pinghetto information regarding contacting ARA Posted by pinghetto (2 years ago)

Post #3056 ARA's email response about DP's claims. Posted by CrazyLevi (2 years ago)

Post #3483 Jaap from Dutch Pinball counters the ARA story. Posted by Rarehero (2 years ago)

Post #3491 ARA counters the Jaap counter to ARA's previous communication! Posted by Rarehero (2 years ago)

Post #3650 Report from a dinner with Barry of Dutch Pinball. Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #3951 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #4259 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #5004 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #5229 DP update about an alternative manufacturer Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #5461 Details on June 19th DP Livestream Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #6420 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by KoenHeltzel (2 years ago)

Post #6684 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Concretehardt (1 year ago)

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#1788 3 years ago

hi there,
just a question: where this machine is built? in the US?

#1791 3 years ago

this is a joke?

this machine is built in netherlands and the only dealers are in the US and CA, correct? no dealer in the EU?
if you want this machine, you need to buy it to cointaker, paying an oversea shipping and customs, still correct?
dutch pinball can go to hell...

#1794 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Please take a deep breath and contact Dutch Pinball before sending anyone to hell.

I don't care about this machine. Some of my friend already asked. The answer is:

"You can order a TBL via our authorized distributors Nitro Amusements (Canada) or Cointaker (USA). At this moment these are the only two distributors that sell TBL. If we will extend and have distributors in Europe, Asia/Australia and/or Afrika we will let you know via our website, Facebook and Newsletters"

#1797 3 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Great! dont let the door hit you on the way out of this thread.

What is the problem to get information for my friend?
All comments here are from buyers?

#1798 3 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

interesting, guess they changed that. I would still doubt it would ship to USA and then back to France though, that would be ridiculous.

Exactly. I can't understand. There is obviouly a problem somewhere ( financial?)

#1799 3 years ago

What are the price here for this machine?

And do you know what are US customs charges?

#1801 3 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

10,000 USD .. there used to be a lower Euro price, but given you have to go through USA now to buy it, dunno.
Nearly everyone in this thread is indeed a pre-order buyer and not familiar with whatever the latest details about purchasing is.

I understand. My friends are waiting for DP reply.
One of us asked cointaker to get a shipping cost to France. Can you believe that?!! It s that why i asked here where this game is built (my friend did not know).

#1804 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

You're out of your element!!!!
I'm in the US, and bought mine from Dutch Pinball.

So why do they write this to my friend?

#1814 3 years ago
Quoted from Superchicken:

You're not French Kanadian are you? Obviously you're not a golfer.

Quoted from ff6735:

Over the Line!!
This is a positive thread. So unless your negativity is for a paternity test, take it elsewhere dude!

n'importe quoi.

#1815 3 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

In Europe no official distributor(s) is/are appointed (yet)

you mean MoP did not get the right to propose this pin on their website and take pre-orders?

#1822 3 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I mean DP has not appointed any distributor(s) in Europe (yet). I leave the rest to your imagination.
If I were you I would tell your friend to wait a couple of months and for sure don't order in US. See it as a positive sign that a new pinball manufacturer wants to deliver first all pre orders befor accepting new orders.
CT and Nitro I think are part of the first 300 pcs batch of which approx 200 were sold to the endusers direct. This leaves another 100 which I assume are going to CT and Nitro. When these 300 are produced than there is room and time for more distributors. DP has always stated this and is the reason they are not accepting themselves new orders.
And yep, let your friend pick up the phone if he wanna known more. Allthough I think a phone call to Hell is a true real long distance call

This is exactly What i advertised him. I sa won german forum that a guy bought it directly to DP.
It seems to have the official DP communication and what it can be negociated informaly.

1 month later
#2218 3 years ago

i would like to know what is the quality of the playfield, clear coating, mech, ramps etc? can we compare to Stern or JPP? does it feel cheap or not?

it's difficult to have a fair opinion from videos or pics. thx

i wonder if i would like to order one...when it could be possible for an european customer..

#2221 3 years ago

i suppose no european customer gets a pre-order of this one as DP has no european distributor yet?

#2226 3 years ago

what is the atmosphere on this one? sound and music? is it really great and entertaining?
on video, it looks like a bit monotonous without much variation. it's difficult to not say wrong as it depends which stage of the game you are playing etc.
can so tell me more about sound, music, callout and reassure me?

about the layout and rules, is there a game or 2 games that come quickly in mind and that look like near the same or is it unique?

1 week later
#2276 3 years ago

I would have loved preordering it now but it may not be possible as long as DP does not finish building the ones already preordered.

It is a pity, cool game. Just waiting for now the next jjp.

Good game.

#2278 3 years ago
Quoted from steigerpijp:

Nope, pre-orders closed a long time ago, no skipping the line at DP.
real achievers get 'm first, seems only fair.

Did DP plan a limited production? I don't understand why it is not possible to order anymore. This is a strange financial strategy.

Never mind, many great pinballs are coming.

#2292 3 years ago

this bowling alley is really a great toy. amazing!

how does it work? like in real or is it virtual?

#2294 3 years ago

you mean the software is able to calculate the falling of a pin by another pin?

how can it be possible to analyse the trajectory of the ball in all the track?

#2300 3 years ago

sorry buddy, i don't know EM games.

for me bowling is like snooker, the impact location makes the ball (the pin) going to the left, to the right etc
i think it is to much difficult to reproduce the exact moves of the pins except if all the pin is a sensitive captor that can record the impact location and so calculate the trajectory of each pin and their fall or not.

i think i am going to have a headache...

" i'm falling, so i'm taking my time on my r..."

#2339 3 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

They are making about 8ish a week (I can't remember exactly, sorry!) reported from the Vancouver Flipout seminar. Obviously this can change, and is only a half remembered number on my part. Hopefully someone was taking notes .

Well, i suppose the next preorder wave will come next summer, at least.

Some good pins will come before for preorder.

9 months later
#5922 2 years ago

Hi there,
I know about production issues.
But Did DP polish the code during this time?
Currently, do you think the code and gameplay are great? Do you consider this game has an unique layout?
Just looking to know if this could be fine for me when issues would be solved.

#5924 2 years ago

Sorry I didn't know it.
I hope all will go in the right way for everybody

#5927 2 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Or maybe the 200 CT/Nitro games would ship first (to bring in new revenue), and then the fully-paid games would ship (since they won't bring additional cash flow)? I did not watch the video but the quotes you provide seemingly could go either way. That would be a bummer for existing orders, of course, but similar to what happened with WOZ as I understand it, and perhaps the only way they could get the games made at this point.

and so possibly scam more people?

I do not try to lend them bad intentions but it seems to me that Those who have fully paid their machine and waiting their game for months must be shipped first. and then take eventually more orders if some people get faith.

Customers are not banks. This is another example of a business badly thought and badly tied.

when an european manufacturer starts their business by thinking to US market and skipping EU market that tells a lot about their reflection of the business.
certains n'ont pas la lumière à tous les étages...

#5929 2 years ago
Quoted from JimB:

We wish it were only months but sadly it's been years.

...too much time effectively.

#5935 2 years ago
Quoted from QuickSilverShelby:

I'm a custom home builder and over the past 10 years I've been building mostly 4plex' buildings.
When a customer wants to buy one of my homes they put 10% down and that money goes "In Trust" with a lawyer. They pay nothing else until the day I'm 100% finished building their new home and they take possession. Until then the deposit has to be in trust with a lawyer....... that's the law around here. It's there to protect the customer not me. If I go under the customer is protected.
On these projects I'm usually into them for $2 to 2.5 million before I see one cent. I have to either get bank funding, use my own funds or usually a combination of both to make these projects happen. If I only sell 3 of the 4 units I don't get paid until I sell that 4th unit. All the money from the first 3 units and part of the 4th unit goes to the banks, suppliers and trades that work on these buildings.
From the time I buy the land to the time I sell the last unit can sometimes take freakin years before I even get paid.
How come pinball manufacturers don't have to follow this model of payment vs delivery of a product? Because there is no industry regulation, no laws and therefore no one to watch over the industry. My industry watches me like a hawk!!
Ultimately, pinball is the wide west and every pinball manufacturer (except, perhaps Spooky) has done some crazy ass shit with their "customers". I don't think this will ever change. It's just the nature of the pinball beast.

when you go and see the banker, do you go with a financial statement (with all charges, revenues, profit), sale promises?
that seems like property development except the banker looks at your experience in the industry and if you have no experience it will be very difficult to get some funds whatever the financial statement and sale promises OR the banker will take no risk and would accept to give you funding if only sales promises cover the cost price of the production and if you bring big personal funds. Why? because the banker is financially involved as He financially guarantees the project. If the promoter does not have this financial guarantee from the bank, he will not be able to pass any notarial act with his clients and so not able to sell. this is a protection for the customer.

now, i don't know how works the pinball industry, what were ARA and DP agreements, how DP funds the projet, if a bank was financially involved in the projet to guarantee the production in the event of a company failure, but the result is some customers have fully paid and have nothing.

#5939 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Again, build on the backs of the paid customer. WTF. Why is everyone in this hobby so fing non business like? Wild west? DP, do like everyone else does in business that wants to make a living. Take your pre orders to a bank and get loans that you are responsible for! Go to your new manufacturing buddies and cut them into the company if they lend you enough to get the people who have paid years ago their machines. In other words do the fing business financing and figuring out for yourself. Be responsible for your success and or failure. Fellow hobbyists .... stop telling these supposed "business" men, and I use the term very lightly here, that it's OK to make a living on the back of customers. They have fu*ked up and so did we by giving them our money. So stop telling them it's OK to try again on the backs who have paid holy crap

personnaly, I think here the mess is An error in the financial statement of the project or an agreement failure with subcontractors...

Does someone know what is problem here?

2 months later
#6144 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

In this market, I think the numbers they can sell at current price of $10k, and probably €10k (once taxes are accounted for), are unlikely to exceed 500.
DI starts at $8k, LE at $9k. PotC starts at $8.5k, LE at $9.5k. Houdini is $7k. Plus WOZ and Hobbit still.
That's a lot of competition in the high quality, fully featured market, and we still don't know if the code's going to get finished.
If they want to continue the business and produce JJP #2 or #3 (not silly BoP SLEs), I think they need to get as much product out there as possible, and at a price that will rebuild some goodwill.
Below $8.5k with finished code, I think they could sell serious numbers, provided that there are no hitches with the new CM and machines are produced and delivered promptly. The lower they get it, the more they'll sell.

what sane person would pay here a TBL 10k€?

Alien standard is around 7500€, the same for Houdini.
Stern pro is around 6500€, premium 8800€
JJP starts at 8800€

if the TBL price is not similar to Alien and Houdini, nobody will preorder it.

#6151 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

I don't think Alien is even a consideration.
But the whole point of my post, which you appear to have missed, was that their current projected price for the CT orders (and presumably other / latter ones) will severely limit sales.
Lower costs in China may allow them to reduce the price. But it's very unlikely to be €7500 in EU, after all the losses with the ARA fiasco. That would translate to $7000 in the US ($3k lower than currently), with tax eliminated.
Maybe if they'd gone with the China option from the beginning, and avoided this whole saga, they could have come in under €7500.

new customers won't pay DP fiasco for DP

so you think DP will generate more profit with few games but pricey than large production and cheaper? do i missed the point again?

#6152 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

At this point, I seriously doubt the sanity of any person buying a game from anyone other than JJP of Stern.
Seriously. You are just asking for it.

all depends of how much and when you pay.

#6155 2 years ago

Still no EU distributor?

#6163 2 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

If anybody preorders at this point, they are either stupid rich, or just stupid.

About DP or all manufacturers?

#6169 2 years ago

This European manufacturer still do not have EU distributors. What a shame...

#6191 2 years ago
Quoted from steigerpijp:

Judging by the amount of recent posts , its seems our "Hero " is spending a lot of time on his toilet again , squeezing out every last bit of anger towards DP.
Must be a relief, good for you buddy !!

i don't know Rarehero, but if i were 10k$ down i am sure that i would use all means possible to be fully refunded, as in the same time there was no perspective of improvement of the situation coming from DP during all this time. And when you get any, you learn that you would get your pin after new pre-orders. so who would be enough courageous to order now? Price? Deposit? i think DP needs to know how many pins there are able to build a week. how many sales DP needs to redeem all previous orders?

#6193 2 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

If anybody preorders at this point, they are either stupid rich, or just stupid.

what is more stupid for an european customer, is to order to an US/canada distributors coz there is no european one while the manufacturer is european. WHO can understand this?

#6194 2 years ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

Being built in China will really reduce labour cost I reckon.
I think that taking deposits/whole payment for new games will help make the EA games. Maybe 1 full price new order will pay for EA and new order ($5000 build cost) probably less if being made in China!

from which selling price are you talking about?

Edit: You own a TBL. in hand? if yes did you order it from US or canada?

#6199 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

This thread attracts a lot of trolls and Donnies for some reason. Especially trolls with no rug, if you know what I mean.
DP has a plan, they seem to be executing on it. Its not the plan I would have chosen, but it's not my company.
Do we have concerns? Of course we have concerns Dude. But I see progress. I don't mind a Chinese TBL, if that's the proper nomenclature. Long as I get one some day.

easy to talk about trolls from comments that have nothing to do with what you say.

ok now DP has a plan: clearing the previous orders with new orders...but after new orders...and i guess if DP sells enough.
does it sound right?
now i think DP needs to communicate to the unfortunate people that are in this mess
- how many previous orders must be cleared?
- how many new orders DP needs to clear the previous orders?
- how many machine can be build a week?
- when DP would be able to start production?
- why there is only 2 distributors and in the same place in north america? i think if DP could open the ability to order worldwide it could help everybody
- which price? which guarantees for new buyers?
- what about ARA? is there a litigation in court with DP? is DP able to go on his activity?

regaining trust and its reputation will always take more time than to demolish it.

#6219 2 years ago
Quoted from TomDK:

Clever Aurich ... same with me: I bought one of the first BoP 2.0 sets and waited month for it. When I got it the software was not really bugfree, I sold the set with a full refurbished machine and never middes it. Some weeks later a final software appeared .. thats live.
TBL is exxxxxactly my pin. I love the movie and like the pin .... but from the beginning I had a bad feeling due to my experience with the BoP 2.0 kit.
i wrote to Berry and ordered a TBL *IF* available and ready for pickup in NL for me. I never got an response ....
I know Jules the "Sound guy" .. i know what amazing job he did and can do. We are still sometimes in contact, you write him and get an answer ... but for the guys selling the machines it seems somewhat complicated to write to an potecionel buyer a mail.

1- does the code need to be polished?
2- how some EU customers could have bought this pin?

#6243 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

The fact that neither company has sued the other thus far, leads me to believe they both have poor chances of prevailing or prospering with a win. The amount in question - 30 or so completed machines, parts for another 200 or so, is pretty small in the scheme of things for ARA.
Probably both parties would be better off settling in some manner. If you have ever considered suing someone that you is broke or has limited resources, you would know that winning won't mean much. Especially if you have to spend money to make it happen.

That is always the best way to find an agreement.

Now as DP is responsible of this mess, I have a suggestion about all these completed machines and stuff that ARA has in hand.
As DP has a plan to fund the previous orders with the new ones, I wonder why DP wouldn’t pay ARA for all the production currently done with the new orders and that is ready to ship? In that way, DP can end the story properly with ARA.

Anyway, Whatever the plan, DP should get again the trust of customers and give some guarantees.
This Chinese plan is exotic, I don’t say they are not serious but this plan seems to be more difficult on logistic, QC and communication points.

TBL is a cool theme and I would like to be in but not unconditional. I will never fully paid a game without my local distributor gets it in hand. I only agree with a deposit up to 1000$ and the left on delivery and the price range should be around 7500-8500$. DP should also hire a programmer to polish the code.

#6246 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

Cooked - DP never stated they have no money left. They said they didn't have all the funds to complete the project. Whatever is left most likely is going to the new CM to get the project started. If ARA completed the contract on time and on budget we wouldn't be here - I can only blame ARA.

which company is committed to a delivery date (for customers) with possible delay penalties?
And I guess DP finds this situation (further behind) more enjoyable and helpful?

#6247 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

You did miss the point again, yes.
No, the opposite. But it's rather in doubt as to whether they make a profit, net of all the money they lost, anyway.
I'm saying it's now a very crowded market for high quality, fully featured machines, with 4 JJP machines and Houdini, all of which except the 2 JJP CLEs are cheaper than currently quoted price for TBL in the US (via CT).
They will sell far more machines at a significantly lower price ... but that may or may not be feasible, depending on how much the new bill of materials costs and xytech are charging them for service and assembly.
Also, obviously, if they get more product out there, by selling lower, then there's likely to be more foundation for future machines, as they will finally have proved they can deliver product.
I guess we'll hear detailed final plans in November at DPO ... if not, then I guess no machines will be produced this year.

So we agree.
Why do not open orders to worldwide distributors? That can only help them.

#6257 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

The issue isn't just games already built... there are parts, and future revenue too. And of course a running bill of past activities. ARA made a big commitment- beyond just the inventory they have now.
Iamagine I entered a contract for you to build me 300 of something... you set your price based on knowing the whole run... what it will cost you, what margin you need, you ramp yourself up to build those pieces, etc. now after 50, I say... no, can I just pay for that 50 at the previous price and say we are done?.. would you take that deal?

I see your point and already thought about that.
But at one moment, you need to find an agreement with lowering losses for each party and go further properly.
Ok nobody knows exactly who is at fault and who is injured. It seems to me that DP is at fault. What could happen if ARA sues DP? Could DP go on its activity if lawsuit is opened?

#6259 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Assuming the agreement with Xytech is legit, I highly doubt they'd waste their time with DP if they thought that there was unlikely to be some kind of future revenue stream, or that legal deadlock would ensue due to ARA. There's no way they don't know the background.
With that in mind, and ARA (or their ex-MD)'s actions, I think them suing is pretty unlikely - except perhaps as a fig leaf to deflect attention from the problems they currently have.
Also, assuming things work out with Xytech, you'd expect DP to just want to move on and not waste any more time on ARA, or legal action pursuing them.

If ARA is injured, there is few chance they do not commit a case against DP. Maybe it is in progress. Who knows?
But If ARA don’t initiate this case it is because there is a legal loophole in the contract.

#6261 2 years ago
Quoted from Draegermeister:

It's a fun game. I shot a 360 video of it at Chicago Pinball Expo.
» YouTube video
The I probably needed the camera pointed down into the bowling alley, but this is a fun game. I like the warm orange colors on it.

Thanks for the video.
I hope the sound and music will be improved. I have the feeling you were playing to candy crush at one moment!

#6263 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

Sound and video is fine. As a matter of fact, I still think it's the absolute best LCD display of any modern game available. It's just the video and the background noise that make it sound like it needs to be improved.

Ok. he just seemed to hear at the beginning sounds that looked like candy crush. Sorry

#6277 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

How is it even possible that these guys are still surviving?
Are BOP sales enough to keep rice and beans on the table after all these years?
So new sales and profits thereon are going to fund the remaining 300 build?
Math doesn't add up to me but whatever

Well, I think some TBL games are missing to be delivered..
Anyway, all this new plan depends on how many new preorders DP will have or how many folks trust in this new plan.

#6279 2 years ago

Hi rensh,
I don’t know what kind of production DP is planing. Small 200-300, medium up to 1000 or larger?
I don’t think only 2 distributors can buy a small production without getting preorders. So trust is shared with final customers.
What are conditions of buying?
As I said, at my level, I would only accept a deposit up to 1000$ and the left when my distributor has the pin in hand.
How works the business between distributors and DP?
In my mind, DP should use the preorders (and eventually small deposit) to loan money from banks (if needed) to pay subcontractors. when ready to ship, make funding appeal to distributors for fully payment. and then refund banks.
I will never replace the role of a bank
Anyway, nothing will be possible if there is no trust.

#6284 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

My understanding of the distro role at this point:
They take and hold a $1,000 deposit. They let DP know another TBL is on order. DP sees no money until a unit is delivered to the distributor.
Unit is paid for by end client when it is in the possession of the distributor. Then DP gets paid.
No trust necessary in this scenario. I mean, you have to trust that the distributors are not spending your deposits, but that's about it.

You says as it is or as it should be in your mind?

#6285 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

My understanding of the distro role at this point:
They take and hold a $1,000 deposit. They let DP know another TBL is on order. DP sees no money until a unit is delivered to the distributor.
Unit is paid for by end client when it is in the possession of the distributor. Then DP gets paid.
No trust necessary in this scenario. I mean, you have to trust that the distributors are not spending your deposits, but that's about it.

Quoted from rubberducks:

No, DP would be paid when machines are delivered.
The distributors are buying the machines and then selling them to their customers.
Also, some CT (and maybe Nitro) customers decided to pay in full ages ago ... why I don't know, when it wasn't required. Maybe they thought prices could go up further.
Either way, I'd strongly recommend that people do not pay in full, for any machine, until it is verifiably in stock with the distributor and awaiting final payment before delivery.

So why all who have asked refund have not been refunded? If all depends on the distributors about refund coz they still have money buyers, it should be easy to refund them. Correct?

#6293 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

You seem to have been following the thread long enough so you should know.
DP have refused to refund EAs as they don't have enough money to refund everybody. EAs are the first 200 machines, and the money was paid to DP directly. There are ~144 left to deliver. A small number of those (we don't know how many) aren't paid in full, so DP will receive some money directly from the EAs, on completion. All EAs are DP's customers, and have nothing to do with CT or Nitro.
CT / Nitro absolutely should be refunding anyone who requests it that either put a deposit down or was paid in full with them, since they claim not to have paid DP a penny of it, and they now have more than the initial 100 on their lists.

That is clear now. I didn’t know the 200 first were ordered directly to the manufacturer as there were 2 officials distributors. So effectively my comment has no sense. Sorry.
These unfortunate buyers are all overseas or there are some European?

#6298 2 years ago

One more

Quoted from RTR:

There are so many Donnies on this thread, that it needs to be really clear that there is ZERO risk in laying down a deposit with a distributor for a new TBL. DP will not see that money until your TBL hits your distributor's floor.
If something goes wrong and the TBL is never built, CT or NITRO sends your deposit back.

We don’t care who pay first, distributor or end buyer, as long as the payment is done after the pins are in distributor hands

#6301 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

No there is NOT zero risk, at all. That has been established.
The buyer's risk lies with the distributor, though, not DP. CoinTaker refused several Alien customers refunds, when the excrement began to hit the fan. Were it not for the takeover and bail out, there would have been no machines delivered. We do not know if CT would have had the money to pay back the buyers - as they'd sent it off to HW already (having assured at least a couple of buyers that their money was safe and they would only pay HW on receipt of goods).

And the manufacturer could not see also a penny (or dollar)
Business is only trust. What EA’s did...

#6308 2 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

You do realize that Nitro's post suggests the opposite, at least with respect to Heighway. Nitro says they HAD sent the deposit money. They do not say anything about when deposit money is being sent to DP.
All of that is really irrelevant given the crux of the post (and I assume the intent of your post) is that one can feel 100% safe with giving Nitro a deposit. Nitro ate the loss with Heighway and would presumably do the same with DP. For this, Nitro needs to be commended.

NITRO didnt' say what he did with Heighway he also did it with DP. he didn't.

this is my understanding of Nitro's comment. i guess Nitro is taking deposit from buyers to confirm order.
anyway, it's easier to trust in reliable companies as Nitro or CT then new one that has no experience and we don't know if it masters all the stages of the business

#6310 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

He was just making clear his position as distinct from the CT one, given what went on with them over HW / Alien, and that some CT customers said they'd paid in full for TBL.

ok no problem.

i hope CT did not send the money to DP and had been able to refund those who asked for it.

#6312 2 years ago

Well, DP seems to be very optimistic in my opinion if they plan to start the production at the end of the year.
Are new preorders already opened? If no new preorders, no production?

#6314 2 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

First off, people need to stop attacking rarehero
Much like you and I, he helped fund this project. Don't forget that he also had a BoP 2.0. That should prove his loyalty and vested interest.
Either way, he deserves more respect from those who are/were casting judgment.
Secondly, CoinTaker is legally on the hook when I go to recoup my $8500. They collected my last and final TBL payment. I don't care where the money went; I just know my check was made out to CoinTaker and tendered by them. According to Pennsylvania law, we're still within the statute of limitations. I don't care how DP and CT work it out, but I am coming after CT if I don't receive my game in the next few months (January '18). I apologize for the tone, but I am stating this to document my advance warning. Nothing personal -- strictly business. I am not going to get played.

Frankly, who could blame you? Everybody would do the same.
Wish you the best.

#6320 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

And BTW - DP has a huge pile of potential money (deposits and future payment) available once they execute their plan, but only when they do. This is not f*cked dude!

the situation is not really clear for me from a DP side.

it has been said here DP needed new preorders to fund EA's games. my understanding of what TWIP said is DP needed preorders to fund SOME of EA's games not whole of them. i don't know if i'm correct. that would say that DP would launch production whatever they have new preorders or not. So, EA's owners would get their game quicker as thought first.

assuming DP would be able to follow the plan, was there any information or communication about the code?

#6323 2 years ago
Quoted from bemmett:

While I 100% agree the code could be so much better it really isn't horrible, especially if you compare it to a Stern or something and their BS effort at getting good code on machines lately

Has DP talked about the code? Who is going to finish it?
I think The question need to be answered if DP wants to fill the new preorders list.

#6335 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

They have made it pretty clear that TBL is till in active development. It's pretty low on the list for people to worry about, IMO.

Sorry but I do think it is for new preorders.
But if DP said that the code was still in development it is a good thing to know or say again.

#6336 2 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

I'd rather put my money into a new AFM Remake or Total Annihilation because I have confidence in these US-based manufacturers and I know my game will show up.


Most of them, yes.

#6339 2 years ago
Quoted from MPRAMONE:

"well this is like , your opinion man.."
IMO the game is already in a top 15 as it is ( PF flow, shots , art , quotes, lightings , overall fun ,built quality ) so it ties any pin collection together anytime anywhere and anyhow too...(ask some second hand buyers)and the music in the game is no issue at all, it fits well and really appropriate + it makes a change from the original. "the Eagles suck man"
Only problem is it's not available for everyone who ordered one yet.
IMO ARA woud get their ass whipped big time in court as they broke the contract, not DP . "Am I wrong?!! Am I wrong ??!!"
I think DP are commited to genuinly satisfy all customers with their purchase , but shit happens right when you don't want/need it.
Pinball is hard...
If you buy one , you'll get to keep it I think as the game is really something despite the code isn't what it will be in the future ( hope I'm right on this one) and the story that goes with it will make it special to you , like you went through much to get it.
This game's story so far is as epic as the movie itself , DP team sweat every day I guess to make it a happy ending too.
I play 10/15 games per month on purpose and there's always some new stuff to discover everytime...so code complete is not absolutely needed yet ( I'm an average player ).
Hope your next white russian is not that far away..

you know, many pinheads don't like Medieval. it is all about apple and orange.
Maybe you are currently satisfy with code (and this pin in general) but i think that if it need to be polished with tweaked or coz it is not 100% coded, it should be done. the most important to me was to confirm that the code was still in development. it is. great.
i also hope there will be an happy end for everyone.

assuming DP could execute the plan with no issue, i think the only problem is there are only 2 north america distributors and so not available for everybody. Can Nitro or CT explain how shipping work for EU customers? did they have EU orders? does the pin ship twice overseas, that would be a big nonsense with shipping and customs extras?

#6362 2 years ago
Quoted from RTS:

And how is cash flow going to start up again? That's the problem.
They can only sell the promise of a game. Fuck that.

That won’t help their plan if they are not able to do « better ».
Let them work some weeks and we will see if any updates

#6369 2 years ago
Quoted from Waldo:

I’m on the cointaker list. Cointaker isn’t even taking deposits though. Guess we aren’t gonna pay until they have games in hand.

what is the current price?

#6372 2 years ago
Quoted from TRAMD:

I was in with Nitro about a year ago and then got out about 8 months ago and then went back in about 4 months ago. I have a $1000 deposit and the total cost is $10,000. I believe I was like 297 the first time, I don't know what number I am now. I'm ready to send my check when Tommy tells me my game is there!
There is very little risk reserving a spot right now and if they opened up another 100 pre-orders, I think they could probably fund the whole thing better. While I understand EAs being upset about getting their games last when they paid first, there may be some kinks that need to be worked out and they should get more polished and complete games when they do.

It is not cheaper to build in China?

I was on the fence to buy one if price were in relation with the market but if it is 10k€ I am out for sure.

#6374 2 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

No idea, but Euro price might be different than USD price?

I think you don’t know the honor and the privilege to pay 20% tva taxes ( and also currency change is no longer in favor of euro).
For exemple, AS pro is 6500-6600€ here. What is the price in US?
About TBL, my dead line is 8000€.

#6376 2 years ago
Quoted from TRAMD:

That's actually $10,000 USD so I don't know what the Euro price would be. I'm paying $9500 for my JJPOTC LE and this is a far more limited product and a dream theme for me so it's worth it.

It was already the same price 10k$ for EA games. Correct?

#6404 2 years ago

I guess they don’t have any update about EU distributor(s)?

1 week later
#6459 2 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Quick update....
I didn't see the glass off once for any adjustments or stuck balls. After playing it and giving it a pretty serious going over, I couldn't see any place where a corner was cut. I would say build quality is the same as the ARA games.
Only difference I could tell was the additional power to make the Walter ramp. I will be playing it much more today and will post later on.
Besides TBL playing well, this show is over the top. I will be back.

You played the machine with last upgrade code? DP should share it shortly.

1 month later
#6565 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I think the question in regard to European distribution is now answered: Freddie’s pinball paradise.
Only question is now will they be the only one?

Is it confirmed?

1 month later
#6686 1 year ago

who are the europeans dealers please?

#6694 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

At this moment Freddies Pinball Paradise Germany and Pinball Heaven UK.

None is pricing it!
What is the price of this game?

#6696 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

If they had set a price, then you would know.

They are supposed to sell it but did not put in shop yet. So no price.

3 weeks later
#6774 1 year ago

i really appreciate the weekly DP's communication about TLB production.

4 weeks later
#6862 1 year ago
Quoted from Rockytop:

Good update. I hope it's true.

he is playing with words.
Next week or the following he could order parts which take some time. and when he receives them he is able to start production, the real start production.
anyway the more time passes and the closer start production seems to be

1 month later
#7196 1 year ago

Seriously, is it really a surprise? it was sure that the dispute between ARA and DP would resurface because there are some who have been prejudiced in the history. And apparently this is ARA. it will not comfort the people who lost their money but at least we will be able to know the bottom of the problem between the 2 companies.

1 month later
#8000 1 year ago

I hadn’t followed this thread for a while...didn’t think the situation could fall any lower...gofundme, I can’t believe my eyes.

#8017 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Don't get distracted by the shiny lights. It doesn't matter who was right. The whole reason why -
1) first container of games wasn't paid
2) why $1k cost increase wasn't paid
3) 49/51 deal with ARA didn't work
4) why a restart deal with ARA didn't work
5) why litigation wasn't started by DP a year ago
6) why license renewal won't take place
6) why production by xytech won't commence
Dutch Pinball is out of money. Now that wasn't so hard to say.

I had understood games were fully paid. So:
What is finally the cost price of this game?
What is usually the benefit per game that 1k charge more prevents to come into production or solve issue with ARA?
How DP made his balance business sheet?
Does DP know their multiplication tables?
Obviously, DP missed something.

#8052 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I am totally in agreement with this. We are finally in sync
But why was dP running out of money? The units were supposed to be built in 2015 by ARA !! Summer 2016 it still wasn’t done and 2 years running a company (1 Yr more as calculated at that moment) costs money and no new income was generated. And than ARA rose the price substantially which dP even agreed to IF they would make them all in 2016 plus 50 pcs BoP. These extra sales were needed to cover the losses caused by ARA in the first place. And guess what, in October 2016 it showed ARA hadn’t even ordered the parts for the BoP. So than DP terminated the new agreement. So much for reliable ARA. And remember, Ara had full access to the DP books. So they knew exactly in ewhich financial state DP was in when they promised delivery 2016 incl 50 pcs. BoP. They knew they had to make the extra units to cover the losses they caused but still didn’t do it. So their whining on we didn’t get paid was all their own doing !!
If I am accusing DP of anything is that they didn’t waterproof the contract against delayed deliveries. But must also admit that the behavior of ARA is unusual in Dutch business and certainly of a bigger company.

Why have they not been built in 2015? Why ARA has raise the production price? When DP was supposed to pay ARA?
I can’t believe all these questions and others were not contractualized.

#8053 1 year ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

Why did it take so long? They had problems with the license, they could not get the music or images right, They had problems with the parts. Hard for ARA to build machines that were not ready to be built. DP did not have their shit together, leaving the contract manufacturer helpless. Remember they had to have Roger sharp come in and help with some of those things. Why would they order parts for BOP when they were not getting paid for what they did? I would not spend more money out of pocket if bills were not getting paid.

So the DP business is to get preorders money without knowing what could be the final product?

#8153 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

DP's goal appears to be raise an unsecured $600k based on people's charity. This money will not be used to pay for 40 hostage games. No the money is for legal fees, and remember in Dutch courts the loser pays for winners legal fees, so they need will need twice as much money. If DP used the funds to buy the games from ARA, they would need to ship them to EA's, not resell them a second time. That is what they should do. I don't know if shipping this number of units will allow them to satisfy all preorders, but it might be close.
DP would need another $600k to $1M to start production imo, there are lots of upfront costs and production to be floated until new sales can be collected. For that kind of capital they need to win any lawsuits and collect the judgements. Part of that ruling might include the judge telling ARA to go fu@k themselves and to destroy the games. DP doesn't want those games shipped, and they are not your friend. They want those games gone so their new venture can produce them. DP would never voluntarily strike a deal with ARA based on their history. But without new investment or a judgement against ARA, production at Xytech won't be starting anytime soon. So if Xytech appears to be starting up, remember it is only a ruse.

All this story is nice but What about EA that are waiting for their games? They are still taken in hostage and are all bankers.
If the money was used to pay ARA ( I don’t know if ARA is contractually clean or not), there will have more donations to finish the EA story properly...and THEN find a solution to go into production.

1 week later
#8232 1 year ago

Can someone tell me what is the current situation? Is it getting into production or not?

#8237 1 year ago
Quoted from RTR:

Seriously though, if you are an EA, let pinhead1982 know so you can get in. But be patient - I don't think this is his full time job.
There is really nothing new to offer now, we are just getting organized, getting some thoughts out there.

I was wondering why the few EA machine for sale are sold for 20k. Nobody thinks in a positive denouement or is it because even if everything was fine the China building is a letdown quality factor that depreciates the machine?
Currently, does the game need a big code update to enjoy TBL experience?
And why ARA and/or DP have waited so long to bring the case to court?

2 weeks later
#8268 1 year ago
Quoted from adol75:

I finally found a place in San Francisco that has the Big Lebowski (Number 9), and ended spending my afternoon playing it. No wonder this game is so sought after as it went straight to my top 5 of all time favorites. I don't know much about the business side of it with Dutch Pinball problems, but what an incredible game they've made, I hope it can get sorted out and mass production can start as I would definitely buy one.

I’m sure it has been already said so sorry to ask again but Is the code completed?

#8272 1 year ago
Quoted from BigLebowski:

The code is kind of complete except the "Dude Abides" mode which is the final and is not implemented yet. But there´s also a lot that could be done to make the game even more interesting because currently the points you can achieve are pretty much linear to your ball time. No really big shots that give you big points. Only one way to get an extra ball. But certainly more complete than some Stern games when they first come out.

I have never understood why they do not complete the code...unless the programmer is not paid or no longer part of the company.

#8289 1 year ago

Berry is an imaginary character.
Any resemblance to real and actual names is purely coincidental.

#8292 1 year ago
Quoted from Londonpinball:

My Berry is a royal A-hole who stole everyones deposit money.
Your buddy “Barry” on the other hand can be described as open, honest, trustworthy, capable, forthcoming, god like, who only temporarily miss placed your money.
I am sure if Barry looks really hard in his checking account over the last 2 years he will find it and finsih the games.
Please please please tell your Barry he has taken to much responsibility, ownership of the fraud and thats not fair to him. [quoted image]

« Your buddy Barry »?
I don’t know him and you missed totally the point of my comment!
So who is Berry?

1 week later
#8309 1 year ago
Quoted from mcbPalisade:

I'd like to agree with you, but I think the timeframe is at least 5 years out and will have to be made in the USA vs. the EU.

It is question to build in China, with lower production cost (and then support the local economy).
Now I hope the Netherlands justice is way faster then in France, unless it will last 2-3 years at least
Now the DP/ARA dispute is submitted to the court, I think EA’s owners should assert their creditor status with a joint complaint.

#8316 1 year ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

They should take out a loan, pay off area for the games sitting in boxes, ship them to the ea's and close shop. This trying to build games with new Money to eventually satisfy their obligations will never work. Game over.

Take a loan? which bank will lend money to insolvent people?
Except investors I can’t see how DP can inject money into the engine.

1 month later
#8368 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

It’s over...but I’m sure everyone is still optimistic in that private group!!!

Whatever the outcome, there are several machines built at ARA. So, what will become of them?
They are not going to be destroyed or will not be resold knowing that they are the property of the buyers

#8370 1 year ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

They are ARA property and can do what they like with them as they own them and haven't been paid for them
They are not yours nor do they owe them to you, they didn't take money from your DP did

No, it seems to me precisely that it is up to justice to say to whom they belong
The final customer is the person who has preordered it.
I think that anyone who has pre-ordered this game with committed money should come together to file a common complaint and claim their right as a creditor

#8372 1 year ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

You are a dp creditor not Ara you have no claim with them, would be like saying you paid the guy who made sterns cabinets and they sold it to Stern who sold the complete game to someone else. You only have claim over the person you paid, any other case would be dismissed.
Sorry but they are the facts, it's like homepin sold all the Aussie preorder buyers their games to Canada.

Where I said TLB buyers were creditors of ARA?
Justice needs to say who is right and who is wrong.
However, there is a commercial chain and the final customer is buyer. If these games were the ARA property why didn’t they sell them, take the cash and go ahead?

#8378 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

^ .... just kidding, I would never advocate violence against machines. TBL's will most likely being liquidated through a handful of distributors. These will then be sold to individuals with cash. So if you expect to buy one, start putting aside money now and save up between $10k to $15k. If you are willing to pay, you will get one imo.

They can’t be liquidated to any distributors. Some particular distributors gets some orders with DP.
If ARA is right but DP insolvent I think the best solution is that distributors that have orders and direct buyers to DP find an agreement with ARA.
everything must be done so that those who have paid receive their game

#8382 1 year ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

But therein lies the problem.
There are 2 parties financially exposed right now on this deal and 1 party is GREATLY more exposed than the other and only one of whom is actually attempting to pursue the debtor legally at this point in time.
Party 1 is the individual buyer who is exposed to the tune of $8000 each and sitting on their hands with hopes and prayers of a future for this game. Party 2 is ARA who heavily invested in time, resources and materials to build many machines and have yet to be paid. They are likely exposed well into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. The current legal proceedings are between ARA and DP. ARA is owed a ton of money and likely has a slam dunk open and shut case. Howver DP has no money so the only resolution to the inevitable judgement against DP is to liquidate the existing boxed up games with all proceeds going to ARA.
Giving those games to the "rightful owners" does nothing to solve the actual case at hand. Until the Early Acheivers step up and go after DP themselves, they have nothing to gain and stand no chance (ok, maybe a tiny chance?) of a positive outcome on this situation unless somehow miraculously whatever deal can be reached between ARA and DP allows for production to start up again, albeit very unlikely.
Early Achievers are collateral damage in this situation.

So do you agree with that?

Quoted from colonel_caverne:

I think that anyone who has pre-ordered this game with committed money should come together to file a common complaint and claim their right as a creditor

#8385 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

Yeah, the thoughts that ARA would ‘give’ the built TBLs to an EA are just phantasy. Will never happen. In case ARA gets the right to sell them (don’t forget not only UA has something to say on this but the software to run a TBL is IP from DP !) they will sell them, not give them away.
EA has a claim to DP, not ARA.
By the way, This has been covered several times already. Guess this helps to pass time

You mean ARA has not received a single euro/dollar from DP?
What/who is IP?

1 month later
#8450 1 year ago

Well, still some postings here, is there something new?

#8454 1 year ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

so you know for sure that ARA fucked DP over? can you share why you think that Dave? To me having read the docs posted here so far I don't think thats the case, although that might be moot when the court ruling comes in anyway!

Does we know when the court gives his judgement?

#8459 1 year ago
Quoted from Londonpinball:

What “new manufracture ” would do a deal with bankrupt DP ??? That’s ridiculous

Bankruptcy, divorce, death are the best drama situations to make the best deals.

Le malheur des uns font le bonheur des autres. Rien de plus vrai.

#8467 1 year ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

Perhaps the greatest feat of DP at this point is to have totally screwed hundreds of people out of thousands of dollars and somehow convince then hope is still alive and its in their best interest NOT to join forces and sue. Why do the beleivers actually beleive this project is somehow still alive? What scenario has been made up in your minds or by the clowns at DP that convinces you that there is hope? Particularly when they have proven to be liars along the way and ANYTHING but transparent.

You mean all the story with xytech is just hot air? Wow!
Btw, I always said all pinball fellows that were scammed should submitted a common complaint.

#8473 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

It's shameful that they'd go that route instead of working things out with ARA. Even if the terms weren't ideal for Barry & Jaap, they would have been better served to do right by their customers, then leave ARA after TBL & try to do something else with the lessons they had learned.

Ok but how can you start a « new business » without closing properly the previous one and so on crappy foundations?

2 weeks later
#8494 1 year ago
Quoted from Toucanf16:

yelobird , I just bought a set of TBL pins. Thanks out to you and the guy who commissioned it!

Can you sell me one?

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