Hey guys, let's stop the personal attacks. I'm on my way to work and won't be able to wade through the last few pages of this thread right now but just in passing I see a lot of mean spirited posting that should not be happening.

I or another mod will look at these posts today but in the mean time can we stop attacking each other? Thanks.

Hey gang, please refer to rubberducks as rubberducks and not any intentional/vulgar modification of his name. Thank you and have a good evening.

I'm sure they want to negotiate the best terms for themselves as possible. No change of ownership with retained employees/management is ever easy or fast. There will be a lot of reps and warranties on the transfer and new employment agreement that will need to be entered into.

I'm sure they don't want to publicly announce they are leaping at the first set of documents generated because they are so desperate. No upside for them personally in doing that. It's a process, who knows where or when the process will end.

Wow! That's basically the end of the line for many if ARA is telling the truth.

I envision ARA eventually auctioning off their hostage games, just my personal prediction, but I don't see them shipping them out to the next ten on the list. Not sure what the law in that country is or how that would work from a liability standpoint. I'm so sorry for those caught in this.

Try with your credit card company if you run your pay pal payments through a credit card. They usually have a longer window for disputes (a year in the US, some can be up to two years like Amex in some cases...Canadians usually only have six months even with their credit card company...even for same card).

How long does the license allow them to manufacture games? If you or anyone know...of course. Seems like at some point the license must expire and then it doesn't matter what deal is cut with ARA (absent a costly renewal and more legal fees)...

As I read his post he says someone bought a spot (so if the hostages are released this guy would get one if there are enough hostages for his number), not ARA sold a hostage game to a new buyer and delivered it.

My interpretation anyway.

I get what your saying and you are not being illogical certainly.

I think what the paid in full achievers would like is some sort of accounting. The feel I'm getting is there is an undertone that DP is simply out of money...like totally out of money. If so, it doesn't matter what deal is cut, DP won't be able to build any more games as it won't have money for parts.

Many seem to feel that DP is using ARA as a smoke screen. Sure, ARA has some hostage games (in an unknown number) but even if those games get released is there money left for more parts and assembly? If the answer to that question from DP is simply "nope, we already know we do not have the cash on hand to manufacture the balance of the ordered games under the old contract" then people want to move on to being paid back whatever they can.

If it is a payback but less than all of what was paid (which it would have to be if they can't pay to build the games) then people have to make their own decisions on how to go about collecting what they can however they can.

Are the DP guys drawing a salary out of the pre-owners money still? Paying for business expenses out of the pre-owners money? Paying for personal expenses? How much is left and what is the monthly cash burn and what is the projected cash burn in the future if DP is going to "lawyer up"? Why are the achievers paying for DP to "lawyer up" out of their preorder money (if that is the case) instead of being repaid whatever is left right now (even if substantially less than what was paid initially)?

I don't think all the customers are necessarily in the same boat as one another, even among the ones paid in full. If I was a fully paid in customer AND thought one of the hostage games was my game, I'd certainly evaluate filing a derivative or agency theory based suit of some sort (against ARA) in my home state to force shipment of my game.

They could try and fight venue and pay an attorney to show up for them and contest it. It isn't loser pays on a venue issue (at least not in my state) so if I lost on venue I'd only be out my time and filing fees.

No European company wants to have default legal judgements against them...so ARA wouldn't likely "do nothing" if service was made on them...they would either fight it or resolve it.

Anyway, im not giving anyone legal advice, just noting there is a second party (ARA) that some could potentially make a run at to get their hostage released. ARA looks like a decent sized company; they are not bankrupting over this matter so going after them to get your game (if you're one of the hostage game prospective owners) might be a possible consideration...if so, a single person (or maybe two) would likely have more success than a large group.

That's huge and good news. I had no idea.

I love the idea. Have a voting trust control the 2% and have the Coin Taker guy speak on behalf of the 2%, everyone would trust him to represent the desires for the games to be made.

I wish I could answer that for you, but there are too many unknowns for me to make an educated guess. The concern a new CM would have (if ARA had an exclusive agreement) if we were talking about a company here in the States is whether they would get an intentional interference with a contract claim and C&D from ARA.

Some companies bring an intentional interference with a contract claim to intimidate a competitor to leaving a negotiation - I've seen that frequently with supplier type deals. I'm not sure what the law is over the pond, so this may not be a concern for them at all.

Have they said Rarehero's spot was sold to someone else and that's why he alone got the refund? That seems like it would be a pretty large coincidence...to say the least...

Are Barry and Jaap still drawing a salary? Is it true that Cointaker has deposit money not remitted to DP held in a type of escrow or something? Sorry to be behind on the status of things...fast moving thread.

40,000 Euros a year...each?

Yep, talk about not having interests aligned (at all, under that rule) with the pre-owners. Have they disclosed that to anyone?

Well, ARA and DP are going to of course just keep pointing the finger at each other...

No doubt. And they are not all similarly situated. The ones "next in line" with games actually made but held hostage by ARA are in a totally different situation than those "last in line" with different possible remedies and even possibly different liable parties.

I'm glad RH found a way to get his hard earned money returned to him. Good for him. I hope the others find their own path to a result that is satisfactory to them (be that their money being returned or their game being delivered/made).

Not correct. The guys that succeed in ripping people off for thousands (or millions) exude confidence and poise in the face of (literally) impossible odds...it's part of their base line skill set. The con in con stands for confidence...it's how the con works.

I'm not saying DP is a con necessarily, but just because they are acting poised and confident has zero relevance in reading their true intentions or deciphering their plan (if they have one).

Angel investors want to see a return on investment (they are really no different from other types of private equity). What chance of return on investment would an angel see in this environment?

Andrew got a bailout from investors who were already invested and he had a factory (vs contract manufacturing). JPop did something to get AP to pay for and assemble the 22 MGs...but details are unknown and AP doesn't seem to want to be associated with JPop anymore (so they at least apparently weren't happy with the bail out they did for whatever reason). JJP got a cash infusion because they had built over 2,500 games and had a great platform and large staff and factory.

I personally don't see how DP is going to attract sophisticated angels or private equity with the legal issues and needing to find a new CM.

This is 100% correct. While I don't disagree that people who are working hard deserve to be paid, there is also a threshold where DP may know they lack the funds to build all the remaining games. Once that threshold is realized they need to either consider other viable funding sources (if any) or fold the tent and refund what they can in some fair manner rather than keep paying themselves till the money runs out ala JPop.

Customers are entirely right to question how much money is left and what the monthly cash burn for DP may be...both are reasonable questions in a crowd funded situation like this.

That is really really wonderful news. Good luck everyone, I hope this works out on the financing side and you all get what you paid for.

I have not kept up with this thread. The 40 games sold out instantly?

What was the asking price for them from the distributors? If they sold out that fast they were under priced...