Jaap emphatically stated Goodman is in; always has been.

I thought the issue was they didn't have the rights to the music unless they played the accompanying video clip it is in, in its entirety. That's why they reimagined the songs that are in there to get around the license snafu. I may be remembering wrong though.

I know, I was reading thinking, maybe. Then got to the end and was like, Damn!

Agreed. They made a concerted effort to avoid using the boards as the reasoning for the delay. It may be the language barrier but an email that should have helped clarify things only resulted in clouding it further. It is a head scratcher for sure.

Thanks. There was an overlap when I posted and he did.

Well I applaud their candor. It does validate that the few who voiced doubt that the board was the issue for things screeching to a halt were right. Again I appreciate their candor but I have a feeling there is still more to the story. Surely ARA wouldn't feel validated for a cost increase without enumerating to Dutch how their actions (revisions, inefficiencies, bad design) cost them time and money justifying the increase. There goes that mantra of running lean, I guess.

So Dutch didn't come clean until ara outed them. WOW. What a crock. I'm quite sure ARA didn't come to the decision to withhold games easily. I can't imagine they did so without getting legal counsel. There is more underlying issues yet to come to light.

It seems fishy because it is fishy. If it walks like a duck...

You know the relationship between ARA and Dutch is gone when ARA was willing to go behind dutch's back and contact dutch's customers directly. Don't forget Dutch is ara's customer; not the lembowski owners. That is a serious breach of business protocol and not one many business engage in unless they feel they have no other means of recourse. I would say there is next to no chance of salvaging the Dutch/ARA relationship. While it's shitty what ARA did, how long would have Dutch continued the bad board ruse.

Oh wow. Sorry I missed that. My apologies. That paints Dutch in ever a worse light.

Don't let facts get in the way of it.

Because. You know. Bill is Canadian.

not good at all. Who knows what the contract is. There very well could be escalators in the contract and that's what ARA is trying to recoup. Without the contract it's, he said she said. What we do know is someone is lying about the boards being the cause of the stoppage. As I said, not good at all.

So they lied about that but now we're supposed to believe that ARA is extorting them for a grand more per machine? Bullshit. For all we know, this $1,000 more is to "buy more time" to try and secure additional capital.

My post clearly said "for all we know."

See, that's what happens when companies get caught lying. People start assuming the worst. It's funny. A few weeks ago appologists were shouting people down stating it was a board issue not a money issue and well, now we know that's not true.

That doesn't make sense to me. If that's the case, they should be in front of a judge ( I have zero clue how their court system works) asking to have the games released and then fight out the details of who owes what in court. I just can't wrap my head around the fact they're willing to walk away and start over. That makes ZERO business sense. I have learned in business being right doesn't always mean being right. This does not pass the sniff test at all.

Has anyone contacted ARA and asked them to clarify their stance on the money they're owed? Has anyone asked them if this $1,000 is above and beyond the negotiated amount and if so why they feel it is owed? I would be interested to see how it jives against what Dutch is saying.

I agree. That's what's so confounding about the whole sorted mess. Dutch is willing to throw the baby out with the bath water and start over. If they (Dutch) truely feel they are at an impasse why aren't they telling their customers, "hang tight. We're a 100% in the right and we are heading to court straight away to get this moving." Instead they're looking for a new manufacturer and leaving everything worked on behind. Who does that?

I'm not sure what that was supposed to mean but I am familiar with contract law (US that is) and there are most certainly remedies that can be applied by the court (whether enumerated in the contract by the two contracting parties or not) to get the project off of center and back on track. Most often with the threat of damages payable to the aggrieved party.
How many companies with a contract and believe they are in the right opt to incur the cost to go elsewhere rather than enforce the contract they already have. I mean this is really simple shit we're talking about here.

This is exactly the correct course and the logical one. Why Dutch just flat out refuses this option is what makes me question how truthfull Dutch is being about this extra $1,000. One email to ARA asking if they are seeking additional money or the original money owed from the original contract would clear everything up very quickly.

Spot on!

The flip side to that. One could argue that ARA put Dutch on notice in October but continued into November on good faith hoping for resolution while amassing 20 more completed games for a total of 40. I'm not entirely sold that ARA continuing production past the October stop date is somehow indicative of them not being forthcoming. As I have stated before, it's all conjecture on my part. The one concrete piece of evidence we do have is Dutch willfully and deliberately deceived their customers with the lie about the boards.

There isn't a board issue. ARA stated there wasn't and Dutch confirmed they made up and used the board issue as an excuse to buy time. Again, no board issue, Dutch lied that there was a board issue.

This is a question of who do you believe. Dutch says that ARA is holding the games hostage for and additional, above and beyond negotiated cost of $1000.00 ARA states Dutch isn't paying them. The devil is in that detail. Is ARA saying dutch isn't paying the contracted amount or not paying the $1000 vig. A pinsider has sent an email to ARA asking for clarification of what they feel is owed by Dutch.

Well I had a response that disappeared. Not worth cutting, pasting and quoting again.

Synopsis: Flynn, suffice to say you're suddenly wacko in this thread

Holy shit man. Condense your thoughts. Blah blah blah. My post that got deleted was the fact you tell me you weren't talking about boards but you quoted someone's statement about boards. It's funny you mention money. Apologist were screaming it wasn't about money; that it was bad boards yet here we are and yep, you guessed it. It is about money. Dutch fucked up. Period. They lied. Period. Everything else is semantics. The fact that this has festered for months while deceiving people is bad.

So it was a continuation or riff on the narrative that the boards are the hang up, gotcha. Like I said...

As for people filling in the blanks, bully on Dutch. They can rectify that but yet more silence. The last I checked, this is a message board that is filled with literally 50% speculation. Speculation on prices, game releases and you guessed it, the health and viability of the industry in a broad sense and a manufacturer in the narrow sense. If Dutch doesn't like people speculating, they can resolve it.

I'm not sure where the disconnect is here. It is about money. End of story. You will not find anywhere where I said that it was a valid claim or not a valid claim. In fact, I said everything is speculation. Don't get it twisted though. It is about money, valid claim or not. Dutch's email specifically stated the production stopped over a dispute about, you guessed it, money. The relationship is in such disrepair, over disputed money, they are seeking out another vendor to build the games. People can continue to conflate the issue and try to absolve Dutch but in the end, they are the stewards of the money collected and they alone allowed the situation to degrade to this point. Dutch sourced ARA, Dutch, I would hope, vetted ARA. Dutch, I would hope, entered into a solid contract. Dutch, I would hope, had a lawyer review and revise said contract.

I sign many many contracts every year and without exception, there is literally zero gray area in the contracts I sign. Claims of additional costs are addressed and remedies are enumerated. Default of contracts are addressed and remedies enumerated. Scopes of work and responsibilities are detailed, addressed and remedies enumerated. The fact Dutch seems to be willing to walk suggests the contract on this issue isn't in their favor. When I have a dispute, the first place I consult is the contract. If I'm in the right I press, if I'm in the wrong I shut up and take my lumps.

Wow, sorry. I just busted Flynn' balls about condensing thought and then I ramble on.

Ok, so semantics it is. You win. Add me to the list of people not willing to engage you in the future. I figure I should throw in some head banging emoticons to show how frustrated I am too.

Of course you can try to twist contracts to reflect however you want to inturpret them. If not there wouldn't be a need for contract law. The fact you reference case law is precisely my point. Contracts are built on 100's of years of case law president. Like is said, the language is black and white. Period. That is why I very clearly stated (no less than 3 times) contracts have remedies for disputes and misunderstanding written into them such as binding mediation. I was never suggesting black and white contract language means two parties can't and won't interpret the same contract differently. If Dutch signed a poorly worded contract or didn't have a lawyer review it, that's on them. And yes, I sign $4-7 million dollars of contracts yearly for the last 25 years. In fact, I just signed one for $429,000 the other day. You know damn well what I meant and want to argue minutia like Flynn, gotcha. Add another one to the non-engagement group.

I said I wasn't going to engage you any longer, however, I will admit I took a potshot at you about the dbag thing. In my defense, that was only after you diminished my experience handling contracts; several times. If you want to play the victim, so be it. I am man enough to admit it was a potshot and I didn't need to add it to make my point so for that, I apologize.

They did show off the wire form making robot.

I believe he was being facetious.

Wow. Unbelievable. I truly feel for tbl buyers.

So they're going to play chicken with ara? Yeah, that will work out well. This has all the markings of exactly how they handled Phil. They thought they were going to ignore him until they got it completed. It was only after Phil blew it up and forced their hand that he got resolution. Unbelievable.

No, you are so bent over carrying DP's water you can't see the one and only fact. It doesn't matter one damn bit if ARA screwed DP. They chose to partner with ara. They reviewed and signed the contract with ara. They touted ara as a reason people could trust them. Their responsibility it to the purchasers of tbl. All the other stuff is happy horseshit. ARA is DP's problem to figure out and news flash, waiting it out months or years as Jaap said is malfeasance of the highest order. What's naive is to continue to beat DP's drum even after they have faltered time and time again. I struggle to see how someone could be at diametric ends of the reality spectrum as you are to myself. It is then that I come to the conclusion that you will quite literally say anything needed to maintain your narrative no matter the facts to the contrary. I'm sure you're a good guy but on this matter you are simply unhinged.

You're 100% correct. Thank god Jaap's attorney advised him, in spite of all the evidence you proffered, to just wait it out. Who needs, nay who wants, resolution this year. I think 2018 is a better year for tbl. Even numbered year and all, you know.

LOL.

I see a commonality of some of the ardent DP supporters. I'll leave it to pinside to draw their own conclusion as to what I think it is...

While I generally don't engage people that resort to the "I know you are but what am I" retort, I'll humor you for one more post. Please direct me to one item in my post you quoted where I, in your words, "completely made up or inferred narrative as fact".

I'm waiting...

So I asked you to point out one thing in my post you quoted where I, "completely made up or inferred as fact" something and you didn't/couldn't do it. Just as I suspected. Instead you speak in hyperbole and change the argument. Riled up? Hardly. People who make poorly framed straw man arguments aren't worthy of eliciting such a response. You pointed to a post where I said contracts are black and white. I stand by that statement. How a contract is interpreted can be misconstrued and thus gray area. That is the failings of the parties involved but the framework of the contract is what it is.

As opposed to what? Cheering against good news? I find myself agreeing with a lot your posts but on matters you are emotionally intimate with, not so much. I would guess those who have been vocal and skeptical are quiet because this could be (hopefully) a positive development and until it plays out further are taking a wait and see approach. I for one hope it is what it is being billed as. Anyone rooting for failure and by extension pinsiders getting screwed deserve a hard swift kick to the nuts. Repeatedly.

I had a pithy response. Decided it wasn't worth it.

What a crock of shit. To think people thought that the firing of that dude signaled DP was being mistreated. These new guys seem worse. Only a couple guys want their game at all costs? I find that hard to believe. Then again, the truth never seemed to be DP's friend.

Shocker, DP might not be telling the truth...again.

That is a peculiar thing isn't it. Why would a company and now we're being told the parent company be willing to to forgo resolution and instead play hardball. As Spock would say, there is only one logical conclusion. Ara believes they have the law/contract on their side.
We had apologist on here saying "Rene was a rogue employee out to hurt DP." In the end, that was wrong. It appears across two entities, ARA and now their parent company, they both see it the same way, there is no path forward with the current DP arraignement. That speaks volumes. They would rather risk loosing all money tied to their partnership with DP than acquiesce to completing the games as is.

What DP needs to do is come clean. Their laze-faire attitude towards the whole thing is bullshit. If they don't/can't lay out their position to their customers, then they need to lawyer up and tell everyone they believe they're right and feel the courts will see it their way. They are out of time and don't understand they are no longer in control of the ship. Someone is going to force their hand and they shouldn't be surprised when it happens. I'm curious, when is BOP 3.0 shipping?

You just can't make this stuff up. It has got to keystone cops level, FFS.

Why would you hear from them you simpletons. They have the high ground. They gave you a take it or leave it offer. DP can't be that niave or think we are.
Translation: after researching everything legally, we realize we have no leg to stand on and we refuse to accept their 51% terms so we are going to start all over and completely reinvent the wheel with a new guy. It will be different, we promise.

What happens with the supposed proprietary parts designed in house by ara. They will have to be made again somewhere differently? Is there intellectual property right on the ara parts? If so, then the new guy has to design similiar but different parts performing the same task. What about parts compatibility between the games shipped and the ones made by the new guy. What a cluster F!

Why bother with contracts or gasp, CONTRACT manufacturing. Let's just wing it. I mean, contracts are for when there is a minsundersranding, not when times are good.

So, to get this straight, the plan is: Take the finite remaining money and completely start over with a new CM. From that, the hope is a bank will lend them the money to build games that they have already been paid to build once before. Am I getting that right? To further clarify, they need to borrow (guessing a generous bom) $5000x150 units totaling $750,000.00. That is just to complete the already committed and spent money? So the bank is going to be thrilled to lend money on the hope of profit from the remaining 100 CT/Nitro games expanded sales beyond the 300. Without even factoring in interest on the loaned money, and giving a generous $4000 profit (not happening but for shits and giggles) give $4000x100 Ct/nitro games equals $400,000. That leaves a deficit of $350,000. So $350,000 / $4,000 per machine means they have to sell at least another 88 games. That is just to repay the bank note without interest and without accounting for any overruns in costs that would eat into the profit margin. I bet banks will be lining up in droves to take on that risk.

Your definition of broke my differ to mine but Rensh has pretty close ties to DP. I doubt he said this for no reason:

Again, broke is relative but when you can't build nearly 2/3rds of paid for machines, you are imo, broke.

It was good to put a human face to things. I question some historical accuracy (DP sold expo that the new designed main board was more elegant and didn't look like crap with all the wire) and doubt his interpretation of the ip "sharing" (I noticed an edit in the video too) but in the end, I believed his sincerity. Please tell me the Richard "I'm Not A Crook" Nixon picture was an attempt as self-deprecating humor.

I'm aware of the correlation. The irony of a "everything is fine video" with a picture of tricky Dick square in the frame remains.

Either way, as I said, a good video nonetheless.

That’s how I took it as well. He didn’t specify all or blocks of say 10 new 10 old alternating though so there maybe a glimmer or hope for ea’s to not be dead last.

They stated the amount though the exact number escapes me. I want to say 130 remaining but I very well could be wrong. I do remember him stating 55 were delivered.

Someone asked what if there’s not enough new orders to cover the old orders. They said, “there is enough. Ask Nitro.” They said, “there are people that canceled that told Nitro once DP starts building again I want back in.” Jaaap said new orders wont be an issue, they will have more than enough.

I sat in the seminar about 6 rows back. I heard Jaap very clearly and directly say (before the quote you posted) that new orders will have to be built before old. What he didn’t say was how many new before old. He then went on to say he knows it is not the best solution but unless someone has a better idea, it’s their only solution.

That’s fair. I understand your point. I wasn’t making a judgement, I was simply reporting what was said for those who couldn’t be there. I wish I would have asked if they had a breaking point of how many new they had to run to cover old and what the staging of new versus old would estimated to be. Another question I thought of was what percentage of bom savings do they hope to realize by going to China and how many new games needed could be reduced by doing so.

DP definitely handled a lot of things poorly but I don’t get any malicious intent from them in the seminar. I get that they are humbled and desperate for a solution. I still wonder if abandoning ara was the move but as the kids say now, it is what it is. They were frank with the state of affairs. In fact, the story of how the new contract manufactuer got involved was telling of how desperate and really at the end of the rope they were. This new cm was quite literally the only thing that saved this whole thing from going tits up imo.