Los Angeles, CA
Quoted from TKDalumni:What was the original pre-order price? Like first people in price?
Thanks!
$8500 (plus chrome trim, Lebowski rug, and "Acheiver plaque" if you stuck with it thru Philgate)
(Topic ID: 115360)
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Dutch Pinball, 2016
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1 week later
Quoted from Dr_Spaceman:Been too afraid to get excited about this given all the other (j) flops in the pinball world lately. Dare I say my hopes are getting up now. Keep the updates coming DP. Don't break my heart. Go Dutch!
Yeah I get a little nervous every time some OTHER bad thing happens....but Dutch is keepin' it real.
1 month later
3 weeks later
Quoted from fosaisu:As I understand it you can easily boot into BOP 1.0 mode and still play the original, so you're not sacrificing anything by adding this mod (other than the $2,000 purchase price, of course).
Yup. It's 2 games in 1!
1 month later
Quoted from MiamiRedSkin:Dream theme for me but just don't have the courage to stomach the pre-ordering thing. When they are available and shipping, I'm definitely joining the club.
You have no choice anyway. Pre-orders have been closed for a while now.
2 weeks later
You guys don't quite understand. They still have the music licenses. They just can't drop the master track into the game like an MP3 player a la Metallica or ACDC. They can recompose the songs which IMO can only benefit the game as they can be tailored to gameplay with transitions and such. Think WOZ - it doesn't have the master tracks but you hear yellow brick road, over the rainbow etc - but recomposed by Chris Granner.
Quoted from iceman44:Given Philgate and the $$$ issues he raised with Barry, I think its a fair question to raise, do they have the funds left to actually build all the games?
Mr. Blindfaith Jpopper is now a Lewboski skeptic? GTFO of here....
Quoted from iceman44:Original tracks make a HUGE difference. To do what they did to Santana is a JOKE and an abortion of music!
Stop being stupid. They did nothing to Santana. Someone posted a YouTube video that has nothing to do with the game.
Quoted from zucot:All that matters now is a shipping date.
If they can't provide that because they don't have confidence in it, then give us a date by which they can announce a ship date with real confidence.
If they can't even do that, then the game is nowhere near shipping.
Jaap said that they got the first production model from the factory - and could have shipped them - but they were shit and had to make changes. The new production models will be at DPO in Nov. so - even though he wouldn't give us a date (seems to be the new MO for anyone but Stern) - it's clearly "close".
Quoted from iceman44:Who's blind faith now? That's the point. You should know better. I wish I had listened to you back then. But I got my refund last year so after Phil, I became a "skeptic", not just now. Still "hopeful".
But hey, everybody has seen the roadkill, its not like people aren't properly warned now.
I would focus on the $$$ and delivery dates, not rationalizing the lack of communication and music, been there, done that.
There's nothing blind about my faith. I own BOP 2.0. They've shipped me an awesome functional and supported product. I've played the Lebowski protos and seen the pics of the production model. Focus on $$$? Why? This isn't an egomaniac in a garage or a meth head in a basement - these are guys who have produced. "Pinball is hard" so yes there are delays and issues, but these guys have it together. All the evidence is clear...no one is blind.
Quoted from Concretehardt:Rarehero are you at expo? Just curios if you talked to Jaap in person this year and played the Proto's they brought? Also when he said the first production model was shit did he elaborate at all, what was the problem?
Yeah I'm at expo. Haven't talked to Jaap yet but just repeating what he talked about at the seminar. He literally said "It was shit" lol.
I played the protos. They're the same ones as last year but seem to have the new rug mech & some art decals so it reflects the approved art. Also newer code, but still very beta. The game "structure" is there but the modes themselves aren't present/playable. So when you start a rug mode it just plays a scene right now. I'm guessing that's due to clips still going thru the approval process.
Anyway I still think the game rules. 
1 month later
1 week later
Part of me wonders if this business about the scenes and the music is a miscommunication - the Dutch guys have been confused by the nature of U.S. licensing lingo before - perhaps they're confused about what the licensor is/isn't allowing about is just playing it safe. I'm just thinking about other games that use video clips or audio from movies...Spidey, TF, Iron Man, BDK, WOZ, Hobbit - they always scrub the existing BG music out - but they're allowed to use clips & voices.
1 week later
Quoted from MrBally:Funny how they didn't think this was important to share until now.
Why does that even mean? They told us they found electronic issues that needed correcting at the DPO - Now, they've found the solution. They've shared.
Quoted from wcbrandes:Seem very confident as well to predict "customers" will be receiving their machines in Q1.
Especially since Jaap has been reluctant to give shipping dates, even rough estimates. So - the fact that they're giving an estimate means they're confident with this latest revision from the manufacturer.
3 weeks later
2 weeks later
Amazing how you guys forget how much HAS been shown compared to other pre-orders. Remember the amazing prototype!? How about the production samples!? How about the great art and toys? How about Bride of Pinbot - shipped and working great, with multiple code updates (there was a new one last week).
Nothing is fucked here, dude!!!!
Quoted from sd_tom:It's a production line update (with a very tentative productio schedule), and invitation to see the factory on the 12th. Videos of test setups (haven't had time to watch yet)
Not a lot else, was hoping for a software update. I guess at this point it looks like software will be a surprise
I'm sure we'll see software around the 12th
2 months later
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:They told me their plan is 21 for first container.
D'oh...guess I'm in container 2 or 3 then.
Quoted from HENSBROOKER:Additionally... The quality if sound is really nice and crisp. The instrumentals are well done, although I would have personally liked the originals (with lyrics) a bit more... Nevertheless assuming more songs will be included as software comes along.
Heard from DP target is to have version 1.0 ready within the next months...
By the mine time ships, maybe it'll have 1.0 on it.
Quoted from sd_tom:Another reason for slow boating it, code maturity
If I could magically have it now - I'd still want it now 
But yeah, I can chill a few more months.
Quoted from sd_tom:Guess it's easy for me to say, I'm a first boater
I guess I *could* be...depending on how many of the games before mine are going to European or Air Delivery customers. I'll prob be boat 2, though.
1 week later
I would like to take this opportunity to complain about the production schedule. I hope my game magically appears tomorrow. I wish someone who had the game already would give us some information about the game! I don't think anyone would have an issue with that, nor would I think it would affect anyone's sanity.
1 week later
Quoted from JustLikeMe:That could be perfect timing for me! I moved Iron Man VE out to a friends place this morning so I have an empty space ready...
My IMve, Tron LE and TBL will be together - The Jeff Bridges Pinball Trilogy
Quoted from Nilroc:The instrumental music is ok. I hope they keep it open source so you can customize the music.
The Nihlist Showdown music is amazing! It sounds like their boom box music from the movie but with "We...believe....in nothing" lyrics lol. So good!
I wonder if they can come up with a better name than "Character Multiball". Maybe something clever based on which characters you have collected when you start it. For example, if you have Dude and Maude = Coitus Multiball. Donny and Walter = Out of Your Element Multiball. The combinations could get really funny.
Quoted from Mike_M:Damn... got me thinking about putting in an order. Can't possibly imagine how long I'd have to wait though.
Any idea if TBL will have a "family" mode that will cut out swearing? Of course if the code just has individual movie files I suppose I could edit them myself. No way that's going to get past the wife with 4 and 6 year olds in the house.
3 weeks later
Quoted from LadySlingshot:any luck fixing the issue?
I imagine it's just a matter of slightly adjusting or bending the ball guide. I've seen this issue on multiple games...sometimes a millimeter of adjustment makes a world of difference.
Quoted from LadySlingshot:Sounds simple enough. I'm considering a TBL but want more reviews to roll in. Any clue how many have shipped?
It's really simple. My MMr's left orbit shot would sometimes loop the ball straight down the middle. I adjusted the ball guide on the right side a little, and now always loops perfectly to the flipper.
3 weeks later
Quoted from colonel_caverne:I understand. My friends are waiting for DP reply.
One of us asked cointaker to get a shipping cost to France. Can you believe that?!! It s that why i asked here where this game is built (my friend did not know).
You're out of your element!!!!
I'm in the US, and bought mine from Dutch Pinball.
2 weeks later
Quoted from Superchicken:Where is Tron and Iron Man for the Jeff Bridges temple ?
You'll see that when I post my pics! ....but my games gonna be on the next boat.
Quoted from sd_tom:I splurged for 4 day fed ex vs 8 day freight. So hoping to have it by Tuesday! And I'm off all week! Fuckin' A
Argh, I'm on hiatus now...this would have been the perfect time for my game to ship! Maybe GB Prem will show up....
Quoted from Mr68:Got the call my game shipped. Sorry Rarehero.
For what? You're more awesome for ordering it before me! Congrats brotha !
Quoted from ToucanF16:So, is CT actually shipping TBL? I was told it will be October before they ship games.
They're receiving the original Dutch Pinball orders and distributing them to the people who bought them back in 2014. The Cointaker "new sales" games will ship later.
3 weeks later
Quoted from Rensh:Also Jaap is stating that the typical buyer is a male person age 40-45 eating hamburgers and drinking beer, can you find yourself in this description.
If not, guess you have to cancel
39, vegan, and don't drink! Jaap doesn't know me at all!!!'
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:I have new pity for you Rarehero.
Don't! I just stuffed myself at my favorite Vietnamese restaurant. Gonna take a nap now.
Quoted from Superchicken:I don't know. Milk products definitely rule out vegan. And using coffee creamer as a substitute milk product in a Caucasian would indicate the Dude isn't very picky about what he eats. In-and-Out burgers shouldn't be a problem if that's what's available.
Pretty sure The Dude lives off White Russians and weed.
Quoted from Aurich:With the price they're charging? It's limited by economics. Only so many people are going to pay that much for a pin, and then they'll have to shut the line down and move on would be my guess.
I can't see any bars buying a $10k pin. I think you owners are going to have a rare item.
Lebowski has to be thought of as an incredibly made "fan service" pinball. It's for hardcore Lebowski/Coen fans who are also pinheads. Only way you're seeing this on location is if the operator is a hardcore Lebowski fan as well. They might not get their ROI back, but it will attract attention to the location and they'll have a collectors item that should hold its value.
Quoted from netman63129:I'm not sure about that. There should be plenty of folks like me that are waiting on the sidelines to see how the game develops. You are correct, 10K is a lot and that's what I want to make sure the game is of the highest quality before purchasing. Also, don't underestimate the number of Lebowski fans. The movie has moved up to like #6 on the all-time comedy list. Finally, a lot of folks just like a quality pin and don't care about the theme. Unless you've heard something to the contrary, I would expect that this game will sell well.
I've been paid in full ($8500 pre order style) on this game since 2014. Mine will be on the next container and I'll have it soon. I hope it sells a ton more than the amount that were pre-ordered. However, $10k is a lot of money and very few people will spend that much on a theme that means nothing to them. I'm all for "quality pin despite the theme" when I'm collecting old Williams games. I don't care about the movie Congo but for $2k, I love Congo! For 10k? Fuck Congo 
I hope they sell a billion of these. I love the game and I love Dutch Pinball. Realistically - this is a niche game at a niche price. Nothing wrong with that...it's a great springboard for DP to start with, and I'm sure their follow up game will be a bit more "mainstream".
Quoted from Aurich:I can't think of way to say this that doesn't sound dickish, but I played this game nearly 2 years ago, why isn't the code further along after all this time?
Cuz pinball's hard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quoted from Manic:Does she always go into the men's restrooms to take a pic?
Also it looks like a bloodstain on the floor in one shot. Must be a tough joint!
She does what she's gotta do! 
Quoted from Bearcat:Tarantino was living in Amsterdam when he wrote the script. The stars are aligning for Bad Mother Fucker Multiball!
Yup, not from Dutch, tho 
1 week later
Quoted from Rensh:Not mine but no 58 also got the call/email
So things are still moving
Oh shit, that means mine is DONE! Just gotta wait for that container to fill up and ship! WOOO!
1 week later
Quoted from burningman:Not sure because Barry is handling this but I think in this case, there were a few guys having specific issues early on and parts are being sent to them. I don't believe parts are being sent where there isn't an issue. On my game I am not having any issues on the diverter, so I doubt I will need/get new diverter parts.
I also think various parts are being sent in bulk to Cointaker and then they are distributing them individually in the US. (But I could be wrong)...
Has it been said if the next batch of games will have this part already installed, or will we still need the replacement?
Quoted from Parsec:Anyone ready to dump theirs yet hit me up I didn't have the funds for the pre-order (Or the patience) but its at the top of my list.
I feel that it's highly unlikely that this will be a "casually dumped" game...the people who pre-ordered are most likely hardcore Coen/Lebowski fans, this is their dream theme...and we've all waited so long for it. I think this will be bolted to the ground for most owners.
3 weeks later
Quoted from bemmett:Ya would be nice to see something soon, love the game but has gotten a little old lately. Need some new life added into it.
*cries* ...at least you get to play it. 
Quoted from Roostking:Dont games on route get just tore up? How long does it take to make the $$$ back the game cost? $10,000 in quarters is A LOT of games. I seriously dont know, thats why I ask.
$8500. Sill a lot of quarters...but just sayin'
2 weeks later
Quoted from Rensh:When the last halfsize container shipped they did tell indeed next shipment would be a 42 game container. I dont think that that moment is very far away. So perhaps a christmas present for you? If not than my game arriving feb 2017 is not happening i guess
Gagrghghghhlargh....mine JUST missed the last container and now mine's just sitting there waiting for 40 more games? I really hope it ships soon...I was confident mine would finally arrive this year...if it gets bumped to '17, that'll be a bummer man!
Quoted from eggbert52:Yea, it's a shame you'll have to play one of your other 26 games...
Irrelevant. I paid for this game in 2014. It's built. Let's go!
Quoted from eggbert52:I was just messing with you. I totally get it and you were one of the people who were very excited about the game whereas I was a cynic. Now I wish I wasn't but glad I at least got in for the game. I'll keep and eye out on the boards and hopefully your game will be here very soon.
From what I'm hearing it *might* squeek in before the end of the year. We'll see! This might be my last NIB! The end of an era.... 
Quoted from Concretehardt:Hmm not sure what I am doing wrong, I'm trying to install .45 code. I downloaded the file onto a USB stick inserted it and went to USB update and nothing is happening.
Try turning it off, inserting the USB stick, then turn in on.
1 month later
Quoted from jackofdiamonds:Ops arent looking at them as an alternative to Data East(Stern).
This wasn't made for ops. It was a project BY passionate hobbyists FOR hobbyists.
Quoted from jackofdiamonds:Great where do i send my 10K.
We all paid $8500.
1 week later
Quoted from Frogman:I only put my deposit down recently, though I understand why those who committed a long time ago are antsy.
Since the purchase is being made through a distributor, I would think it would be more adventageous to express concerns or put processor on the party that is accountable for delivering the goods. The distributor is on the hook for a lot of machines and has more leverage that the individual user - in most businesses. If I end up with serious concerns or questions I'll call Melissa at Cointaker. I've purchased a total of zero new machines and this is my first experience, so I'm not claiming to be an expert, just wondering why, in general, there's so much reliance on going directly to the manufacturer (with Stern, too) instead of holding the distributor accountable.
I bought it through Dutch Pinball, but I have spoken to Cointaker. They haven't heard anything about when the next container is supposed to ship. Even if I had ordered through them - I'm not sure the answer would have been different.
Quoted from burningman:I'm here, wish I had more news....
As many of you know I have been testing the .47 code. The game was played straight through for 2 full days without any real malfunctions. I have been in contact with Koen regarding the bugs I found and I can tell you, he was heads down and working on getting it cleaned up for release.
My opinion and perception is that Koen wants to get this code update out asap. But at the same time, wants it to be as as clean as possible. I don't want to speculate on when we will see it, but I would think its going to be soon.
Wish I had more info to share but I don't. Just hoping that my fellow brothers Shamus get their games soon.
Is it possible they want the most up to date code on the just-sitting-there-built-but-not-shipping games? TALK TO US, DUTCH!!!!
Quoted from TRAMD:This delay is good for some of us as I've been purchasing a lot of pins recently but didn't have to tell my wife about The Big Lebowski just yet. Unfortunately we were watching the movie a couple nights ago and I'd had a few too many white russians and I blurted out "I can't wait for my Big Lebowski pinball!" Oops.
Well, the delay is no fun for those of us who paid in 2014.
Quoted from Who-Dey:You actually had to pay in 2014 to order one? How much?
$8500 w/ chrome trim, rug and numbered Achievers plaque. They had 3 awesome playable prototypes at Expo compared to Jpop's nothing. All signs pointed to them really having their shit together. They still do compared to some of the other clowns. But this latest delay is really bugging me. I know my game and others have been built and are just sitting there because of this "PCB situation". I just want an update with some answers.
Quoted from TRAMD:I was picking up the sarcasm you were putting down. I just played along. No emails were sent. I would actually hope this was limited to 300 as owning a really rare pin would be cool and better justify the large price tag.
Even if the ball gets rolling and they're able to make more, it's still going to be relatively rare. Let's say the cap out at 500 or 600. Anything less than 100 will be "rare" - remember, unlike Sterns there are no Pros or Premiums.
Quoted from Frogman:Congrats. When you placed the order did Melissa provide you with an estimated ship date?
LOL. I'm #56, paid for in 2014....I don't have an estimated ship date!!!
Quoted from Who-Dey:At what point does it finally become "not funny" anymore? That is ridiculous.....
It's that point. But I still want it. I know it will show up soon-ish-sorta-maybe. Just truly disappointed in the lack of transparency and communication, when that used to be their strongpoint. I mean, I think the pre-order model has been dead for a while ...but between this stuff and Stern's problems, not only is pre-order dead...NIB pinball is dead to me. This will be my last one.
Quoted from Who-Dey:Hell ya, at 10k I bet it will be your last NIB
$8500
Pay attention. I'd never pay $10k for any pinball. $8500 for absolute dream theme...I could hang with that.
Quoted from Who-Dey:As far as Sterns quality goes, I honestly believe things are getting better...I know I know...Batman66, let's not even talk about that lol. I'm talking about the playfield quality. I think it's definitely better than when GB released 6 months ago. I'm not hearing nearly the amount of complaints now as I was back then.
I've been buying Stern's since 2007. I've bought routed games and shopped them out, I've bought NIB games. Quality's always been up 'n down...generally a crapshoot, but I've been relatively lucky with my purchases. That being said, I was buying full featured Sterns for ~$4000 ...now it's double and up to $15k - and the quality is generally worse, and the code WAY worse. So...while Stern has made some advancements and has generally made better art choices (sans GOT) ...you aren't getting what you're paying for, so I'm not buying anymore.
Quoted from Nilroc:I would assume the board issue.
"waiting for solution from ARA"
Those are Barry's words not mine. Email was very vague.
No, I know...I got the vague response from Barry too. I want specifics. What exactly is the problem? Why is ARA taking so long? If the first 50 games didn't have this problem, then why, and why can't they make the boards like those 50?
2 weeks later
Quoted from chuckwurt:Well that blows that is only the 300. Was hoping it was gonna be make them until the license runs up.
It ran up.
Quoted from Gutterballs:Here's a question, would it be easy for a computer moron like me to update the code on the TBL machine? I've read posts where people talk about loading new code versions into TBL.
Yes. All pinball machines are pretty easy to update. You just need a USB flash memory stick.
I got an Email from ARA this morning...followed by Dutch's. Either ARA is lying or Dutch is. Either way, it doesn't matter, because FACT: Dutch lied about the PCB's. So, first things first:
FUCK YOU, DUTCH PINBALL!!!!!!!
Second...lets sort out the facts.
1. We know ARA has a ton of games sitting there, complete.
2. Dutch says ARA wants more money, won't pay it, threatening legal action.
3. Dutch says they're looking for a new manufacturer.
4. Would they get the finished games back from ARA, or will those be scrapped? Wouldn't it cost MORE to BUILD FROM SCRATCH vs. just fucking PAYING ARA to get this over with? They won't pay ARA 1000 more euros per game...but they'll pay someone else, probably more, to start over?
Point 4 is why this explanation seems fishy as fuck.
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:And where will the money come from for any of those options?
Exactly - that's why it sounds like bullshit.
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:This so reminds me of the guys who contacted Fox about the Predator debacle. Nicely done, sure. Nicely done.
You blaming the victims? As customers who have been fed a line of bullshit for months, we have every right to investigate to see what the fuck is going on. Brian emailed ARA. I did too. I'm sure others are as well. And I'll be even more transparent. If we don't get some satisfactory answers soon - I'm going to Universal. No "anonymous" here!
Quoted from JimB:So everyone seems ok that ARA can ask for more money midstream? Seems like that's the consensus after hearing another side. Not sure why that's okay at this point.
There's two sides to every story. We don't know what's true. Dutch claims they're asking for more. ARA claims they're asking for what's owed already.
If Dutch succesfully transfers this to another manduacturer, we believe them.
If we're still twiddling our thumbs months from now, we believe ARA.
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:I'm giving pinghetto, who happens to be a very good friend of mine who's been fed a bunch of shit for months from DP, credit for stepping up and trying to find out exactly what's been going on.
Thanks for clearing that up. I took the tone out of context...it read sarcastic.
Quoted from pinghetto:The only thing that gives me the slightest ray of hope is that Jaap is scheduled to speak at the Texas show. Why would they even bother if the ship had already sunk. .
I'm not naive. I have no hope now. I'm upset as fuck. That being said, I'm sure Dutch won't give refunds...so I'm in on this gamble whether I like it or not. Hopefully I can just chill out till March...because Jaap will HAVE to answer for EVERYTHING there, and I hope you guys there won't be meek...GRILL HIM.
Personally, I think the only way to salvage their reputation is this:
If they truly aren't having money issues...this is what they need to do.
OFFER EVERYONE A REFUND. Everyone who wants one, gets one. Everyone who still wants to stick with the game gets a partial refund, with a small bit left in as a DEPOSIT. When the games are finally truly ready to ship and they sort all this shit out, THEN we pay the balance. Currently, the Cointaker buyers only have a deposit in....AND can get refunds if requested. We should all be made "equals" in that sense.
IMO this is the only thing that can restore their reputation and a sense of trust with their buyers.
Quoted from wcbrandes:Greg can you please pm me the letter from ARA if your not willing to post here. This is far past saving this thing from what I know in business and where it really stands according to what i am hearing here
Brian and I have been on Jaap like rabid dogs....lets give him a few hours to respond. Brian said he'll post it tonite if he doesn't hear back.
Quoted from RobT:I wonder if Cointaker is in a position to give refunds to everyone who has a deposit with them? In other words, is Cointaker holding on to those deposits, or were they forwarded to DP?
DP has no CT money.
Quoted from Rensh:So you Americans have Trump as a president and this means all Americans are like him??
Yes, we're all narcissists, paint ourselves orange, have nicotine-yellow hair, put scotch tape on our ties, and are functional illiterates with mail-order brides who hate us. 
Quoted from Pinhead1982:Not a lot we can can do, just sit back and watch what happens I guess.
Mmmm....yeah, so - yeah...I don't want to "sit back and watch". I want FACTS. I want to know why my game has been held hostage for ~5 months. I want to know at what point the relationship completely broke. I want to know if there have been talks within that time period or if they were just waiting each other out. Dutch claims ARA is breaching contract...I want to know if they've lawyered up. If not, why not, and when? I want to know who they're talking to to take over from ARA. I want to know what happens to the games sitting at ARA if they find someone new.
I want to know EVERYTHING so I can make an informed decision about how to proceed further on my end.
Quoted from RTS:EVERYTHING needed to make an informed decision about pre ordering a pinball machine has been available for years on Pinside.
You just need to read through the various threads to see how it works out.
Dude - this purchase was made in 2014, before Jpop and SkitB had fallen apart. They were licensed and had playable prototypes. I don't need your lecture on my retroactive mistakes. We want to know what to do NOW with the situation as it is NOW.
Quoted from eggbert52:Licenced? Now I KNOW you've had a privileged life with obviously a top notched education to boot!
What the fuck are you talking about? The Big Lebowski pinball is licensed by Universal. This is a fact. Why are you starting shit with me based on nothing? If you have a problem with what I'm saying and have facts to back it up, let's go - otherwise, enough with the personal attacks and lies.
Quoted from Gutterballs:I do think it's all going to work out eventually.
Maybe, maybe not. I think there are actually two issues here. There are the hostage games, which could ship right now if the parties worked their shit out. Then there are the ~200 unbuilt games. Even if they work something out to release the hostage games - will ARA want to build the rest? Probably not, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual with Dutch. So then - can they find someone else to build the rest?
I got this email from Jaap this morning:
---------------------
ARA is not telling the truth. They don’t charge us the agreed price.
In May 2015 we agreed price A. In June 2016 ARA wanted much more money per TBL: A plus €1.000+. DP agreed with this price but only under the condition that ARA would deliver 300 TBLs plus 50 units of our 2nd title before the 31st of December 2016. A few months later (October 2016) we found out that ARA didn’t order parts for the production of the 50 units of our 2nd title. We confronted ARA with this and told them the deal of June is of because they don’t deliver in accordance with the clear condition (the delivery of 300 TBLs plus 50 units of our 2nd title before the 31st of December 2016).
ARA insists on charging us A plus €1.000+. They didn’t produce a single unit of our 2nd title.
For us this is unacceptable as you probably will understand. The agreed price is price A and not A plus €1.000+.
Please feel free to share this with the pinball community.
---------------------
So, they're sticking to their "ARA blew it" story. I just hope they had this conditional contract in writing.If we are to believe this...I think an interesting tidbit is the mention of the 2nd title. If they indeed finished designing a 2nd title and wanted it built by Dec. 2016, that means DP wasn't planning on being one-and-done, and that maybe gives me a bit more confidence that they'll work this all out...as they've got another game in the can that should have been ready to go.
Quoted from titanpenguin:So ARA missed the mark by 200 games and change, plus the 50 of title 2?
There are two sides to every story. Here's the most recent ARA letter. They claim Dutch didn't pay for the shipped containers & ~40 are ready to ship as soon as they're paid.
Who's lying? Who knows. Either they'll work it out with each other or they'll work it out in the courts.
Quoted from DCFAN:Rare, how much of that do you suspect is the truth? The 2nd title in 2016 never would have seemed realistic even if looking at it from January 2016.
I don't believe anyone. All I can do is look at the information I have....and I'll either get my game or I won't get my game.
1 week later
Quoted from Dkjimbo:So not a peep yet from DP on any of this or in response to the various statements made by ARA? Man I really want this game and have admittedly cancelled my order and got my refund. I hope for the best but suspect the worst here....
I was bugging DP almost daily for a bit...backed off a little...bugged them again yesterday, and they said no new news to report. I heard from someone else that they will explain everything at TPF...so, I'm just gonna hang back and see what transpires there before I decide on my next course of action.
Quoted from Rensh:Let it loose for some time pls and trust, or hope if you prefer that word, that DP is doing their best and don't need reminders.
It's hard. They lied, and while I *hope* the right thing happens in the end, I have no evidence that will be the case. If they want my trust back, they need to earn it...offer a good faith refund to their customers. Refund me back $7500, keep $1000 as a desposit...and I'll pay the rest when the game is ready to ship. Without a good faith refund, it will be hard to truly have trust in them at all.
Quoted from fastpinball:I don't think that shows needs to stream immediately, but archiving and sharing shortly afterwards would be awesome.
Seeing speakers in real time is part of the value provided by shows. If fewer people came to shows because they could see all the content online for free, shows would be less motivated to have speakers, especially when some speakers cost the show money one way or another.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
I don't have the time or or desire to travel to Texas to find out why my fucking Lebowski machine isn't in my fucking house. It's 2017. Stream the fucker so we can all know where our fucking money is!
This is the Lebowski thread...so, if I get banned for saying fuck...well, FUCK!
Quoted from bemmett:Well I know some people will take that attitude but again I like playing them, I don't buy them for value or trophy pieces, right now that is all TBL is, a trophy with a lot of drama around it. I enjoy pinball for a relaxing getaway, not drama...... I guess we'll see
How do I put this nicely.....if you were fortunate enough to get your game already....how should I say this....um.....SHUT THE FUCK UP. 
Send it to me if you're sick of it already. My game is being held hostage. Wanna trade places!? 
Quoted from TRAMD:I don't understand the early achievers that aren't more upset with DP.
I'm absolutely upset. But what am I supposed to do? I don't want to give myself ulcers over it. Suggestions about how to properly be upset?
Quoted from Superchicken:If you want direct communication, pickup the phone and call Jaap. Any email sent from DP must be considered public communication as it ends up here in a matter of minutes.
How about Jaap call every one of us?
Quoted from highdef:Right. Because we should kiss DP's ass to get a status update on our $8500 investment. Makes perfect sense!
It wasn't an investment. It was a purchase. Give us the product we paid for, or a refund. Simple.
Quoted from rubberducks:Also more likelihood of more than 300 being produced
The license has expired. They'll have to renew it...I don't see that happening.
Quoted from Rensh:Not true. Why are you saying this? The usual badmouthing I assume?
The usual badmouthing? I've supported this project since its inception. I've supported Dutch since day 1. I was order #1 of BOP 2.0. Sorry if I'm not playing the part of company ambassador.
Pinball licenses last 3 years. 3 years is up. Can't imagine Universal would renew it after how things have gone...I wonder if Universal knows how their license is being handled at the moment. Do they know of the hostage games and this whole situation? I'm biting my tongue until after Texas - if I don't like what Jaap has to say, I'll be contacting the licensing people at Universal the following week.
Quoted from Rensh:Yep, you are very supporting now
They say you know who truely your friends are when times are bad ......
So just the idea you have that licenses go for three years made you state that the TBL license has ended? No fact checking, just shouting things to stir the masses. Pinside at his best
What in heavens name you wanna gain with contacting Universal? Just, very hypothetically, suppose your action will get the license revoked, how does this help your case?? I truely don't think the license is at stake but just the fact you wanna go to Universal to create trouble really p*sses me off. This is not a Kevin situation or do you think Roger Sharpe also f*cked up to use the word you like so much?
Flame suit on.
Rench, this is beyond "friends". I considered Barry and Jaap friends, until it was clear they were lying to us. Friends don't lie to friends. So, now they're guys running a business I bought a product from. I want the product I bought.
As for the license being done - I have a trusted source who I believe 100%. That source would know. That source has never lied to me. Don't believe me? That's on you. I don't throw bombs to throw bombs.
As for Universal- Buyers are currently at the whim of Dutch's "truth"...and we have no idea if that truth IS the truth. Universal is a powerful party who could possibly help get to the bottom of all this.
Quoted from unigroove:Here's what I suggest: DP are working on a solution. Let them handle it, they are plenty capable to do so.
They need to prove this. Silence and lies don't give me confidence. Like I said, I'm chilling till Texas. Then we'll see.
Quoted from unigroove:Yeah, that's what we need. Turn a movie studio against DP so not only you but everybody else won't get their game. Fuck it up for everybody, because you may not like what Jaap has to say
See now you're getting into Predator witch hunt territory. Blame the victims, not the source of the problems. DP is 100% the problem here. They fucked this up. If I go digging for answers, sorry, I'm not the problem.
If everyone sees me as the enemy, here's the solution: Convince DP to give me a refund. I'll sign an NDA or a restraining order or whatever. I'll disappear. You'll never hear from me again. I honestly don't even care anymore. If I need a Lebowski fix I'll just watch the movie. Pinball sucks.
Quoted from unigroove:No they don't. You expect them to show you the contract? All they need to do is deliver you your game or refund you.
They've refused to refund me and my game is hostage. So - yeah. After the PCB lie, all burdens are on them, and silence and "no info to give" emails don't cut it. Show us all contracts and paperwork or I won't believe a word. Only way I trust them again is refund or game.
Quoted from unigroove:e clearly a problem for everyone in line behind you. Got a text from both Barry and Jaap this morning saying that the license has not expired, so that's not even an issue
Why do you believe them? They haven't earned our trust back yet.
Quoted from unigroove:So why are hanging out here so much?
Kills time while on the shitter.
Quoted from bemmett:Hey whatever guys I knew I would get some "boo hoo" comments but little over the top, it's a forum I posted a feeling about it all, I'm entitled just as much as everyone.
Hey for the record my STFU comment to you was supposed to be a bit tongue in cheek. It was really more a "c'mon, man!" ....I didn't mean for it to come off personal. My beef is with Dutch, not anyone who bought the game. I'm just splattering my emotions out here cuz what else can I really do in this situation. I'm really mostly Dude about it all - if I was "full Walter" I'd have gotten way deeper angry about all this. I'm mostly just in a state of disbelief how ridiculous this has gotten.
Also I've been getting so much joy from the new Zelda I barely care about pinball anymore....I just wanna know if I'll ever see a box or my cash, I sorta don't care which one at this point.
Quoted from jayhawkai:14,908 posts in 4 years. I think you need to see your gastroenterologist.
I won't deny being a forum addict over the years. Lately not so much. I'm poppin' a squat right now! That's my Pinside check in time.
Quoted from Khabbi:I have a system- I poop once a week for an hour and half, and I wear a headband that's soaked when I'm done.
Quoted from Pimp77:I hope it's not a dream theme of mine as I'd never own it.
Too many dream themes have been crushed....Transformers, Ghostbusters, Lebowski ....we'll always have ACDC! From now on, I can relive my "dream themes" by just watching the movie. I don't need a pin for it anymore.
Quoted from pinghetto:I'm thinking it's Pulp Fiction.
What about the rumor that Stern got it?
I dunno, either way ...I've got my PF Blu-Ray. Done.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I feel as though you are mistaken. They've been through this before with refundgate, and I think they know how ridiculously easy it is to handle a pinball PR crisis. Announce some kind of believable "progress" update on the lebowski front, and then dangle a shiny new title/preorder on the next game, and boom, you've bought yourself some time and probably a whole bunch of pre-order cash on the next one.
Pre-order is dead, especially with Dutch. No one will give them money for a new game unless Lebowskis are flowing out again - even then, I don't think people would do it. Too much has happened since 2014.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Pre-order will never die. I except at least two out of three of AFMr, AP and Dutch to be soliciting pre-orders this weekend.
We have different definition of pre-order then. AFM is going into production in May. If you buy one now, you're buying it. Not really a pre-order. Pre-order means paying now even though it's not finished & years away. That's dead.
Quoted from dannylite:Beetlejuice!
Quoted from dannylite:Beetlejuice!
Quoted from dannylite:Beetlejuice!
Quoted from SunKing:Your definition of pre-order is a lot more loose than mine. If I pay for something, I expect to get it NOW - a fair exchange of $$ for a product. If I pay now, but don't get my product until later - that's pre-ordering. In your example, if I pay now and it goes into production in May - I may not get it 'till June...maybe July.....maybe even August. I most certainly consider that pre-ordering.
You can't just walk into a Best Buy, buy a pinball machine, and walk out. There's always going to be a slight delay in purchase and delivery with pinball.
IMO situations like these = Pre-order:
-Jpop showing NOTHING, taking money
-JJP announcing their company and WOZ without a game to show yet, taking money
-Heighway announcing aAien, showing a wireframe playfield CAD drawing, taking money
-Dutch announcing Lebowski, bringing protos to shows, taking money
-Homepin announcing Thunderbirds, showing nothing, taking money
-Multimorphic showing the P3 protos, taking money
-PPS announcing MMr in 2013, taking money
Basically...people taking money for something that's at the very baby stages of development = pre-order. I think this model is pretty dead in 2017
IMO, the following are not really pre-orders:
-Stern announcing game, taking money as it is going into production soon
-PPS revealing AFMr, taking money as it's going into production soon
Sure, there are situations that could be on either side of the fence, like Spooky...but at least they have a trusted reputation. I don't think anyone without a trusted reputation will ever get enough money to "kickstart" a project ever again. If Dutch is expecting pre-order money for game 2 to bail them out of game 1...I don't see it happening.
Quoted from Rensh:Sorry. no beetle juice no mad max no pulp fiction
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reveal-dutch-pinball-title-2#post-3670797
I heard 25 LE's @ $12,500. Total desperation cash grab...probably to pay off ARA or lawyers. Are there 25 suckers who'd buy a new BOP for $12,500? I can't imagine...but hey, if that helps get Lebowskis back on track then who am I to judge.
Quoted from rubberducks:I doubt you heard that.
Don't accuse me of making things up. You want a pic of the text?
We'll find out tomorrow, won't we? If I'm wrong, my source was wrong...I don't lie. If I'm right, I'll look forward to your apology.
Quoted from rubberducks:It makes absolutely no sense. Hence the scepticism.
Your righteous indignation does potentially hint at its own story, though.
How does it not make sense? Stern just made 80 SLEs for $15,000. JJP offered Dialed in Collectors Editions for $12,500. Pinball makers know low number LE/high prices can move.
I heard this news on Wednesday. Rench shows the poster reveal today. My source isn't proven wrong yet....
Here's the text with names redacted to protect the innocent. The green is my response. But yeah, I'm making it up....
Quoted from rubberducks:Because 25 machines at a vastly lower profit margin??
Let's assume that for this tiny run they somehow get ALL costs within $7,500 per unit (unlikely). They sell all 25 units, and thus make $125,000 gross. The extra bill to finish all 300 TBLs with ARA that you and others still keep suggesting can happen is likely to be an EXTRA $300,000 - 400,000.
It could turn out true. Stranger things have happened. But the price and number are utterly bizarre if so. Not to mention being a PR disaster.
No use speculating back and forth about it. I know what I know....Saturday will prove that information wrong or right. I'm not trying to fuck with you.
Quoted from rubberducks:We'll see. But as I say, it makes absolutely no financial sense whatsoever ... not to mention everything else.
What does make sense about Dutch Pinball these days?
Quoted from Rensh:No worry Rubberducks. I agree that 25 pcs make no financial sense and is incorrect for sure
So you're not disputing the $12,500 part?
Quoted from PinBalt:That is a great question about the license window.
License is over. That doesn't affect those who have paid already...if we ever get our games that's on DP, not the license. If they want to sell anymore they have to renew.
Quoted from Hjbondar:That’s why we talked to several potential Contract Manufacturers and it looks like we will do business with the VDL Group. A very big Dutch company that produces a.o. BMW cars in The Netherlands. They are very interested in starting the project but they suggest to start on a smaller scale. We have planned to build a series of max.150 units of The Bride of Pinbot 25th Anniversary Super Limited Edition, 100 for the USA and 50 for the rest of the World. If all goes well, we will start building a regular version of BoP25, to be build by VDL. If in the meantime, we come to an agreement with ARA, we can start building TBL as soon as possible, time will tell.
This is f***ing BS. If they're going to a new mfg, the FIRST THING they should be building is Lebowski!!!!
(edited by mod team)
Quoted from foxtj24:how much?
I just want $8500, what I have into it.
Jaap just recieved my "Refund or else" letter. I'm happy to vanish and I'll even sell my BOP so they never have to worry about hearing from me ever again concerning code or support issues.
Refund and I vanish from the hobby, basically. Hold my money and game hostage and they will feel my fucking wrath.
Calls to Universal licensing honchos start this week.
I'll be happy to call Bally as well to let them know what charlatans they've allowed to license their BOP I.P.
Will be weighing my legal options as well.
I would prefer to just get a refund and be done with this garbage hobby forever.
Quoted from chadderack:It would be sad if you left the hobby, but completely understandable.
I'll always love pinball but I'm absolutely done with the garbage people that sell
new games. Fuck them all. I don't need them or the drama to enjoy pinball.
Quoted from pinballrockstar:Jaap should have reassured his loyal customers, not present a new pinball.
People have the value of a new car in this..it's no pocketchange
Jaap's gonna have a full inbox and Barry's gonna be like "whaaaat the fuuuuck" when he checks his email
Quoted from Khabbi:What would he do with all his spare time? 15K posts on just this forum in 5 years? Rough numbers- 3000 posts/year? That's more than a hobby, it's an addiction. Between DP and wanting to leave the hobby, he may need a therapist.
I won't deny that forums are addicting. I think a good number of people here "suffer" from it. I could do A LOT in my spare time. I could ABSOLUTELY be far more productive in my life if I cut this element out of it. I mean, I think you're just joking or trying to take a jab at me...but you're not wrong.
Quoted from EternalLife:ARA broke the contract with DP, sue them..Suing DP is about as productive as suing yourself.
We don't know that as a truth. Without evidence, we can chalk it up to another Dutch lie.
Quoted from RTR:Not sure "burning the house down" is the best option, even in the Post-Dude era of TBL.
They burned their own house down. I'm just looking for the truth and help.
Quoted from jackofdiamonds:You wont quit the hobby,which is good.Youre a lifer.
-I'd like to quit this game.
-Due to this situation (and Stern's insanity), I'm absolutely quitting buying new games forever.
-Once the Dutch fiasco is solved, I'd like to vanish from this forum & just enjoy pinball privately.
I'm already done with collecting. I don't search out games to restore anymore. I have the games I like and am happy with them. I won't mind whittling them down at some point, either. As far as my current nerdy hobby focuses go - I'm way more interested in video games at the moment. I've been playing Zelda Breath of the Wild any chance I can....haven't fired up pinball much at all.
Quoted from beauimpala:Said the guy who is creating more drama than anybody else in here. Just calm the fuck down. We are all in line waiting for our games. It's out of our control. I don't believe any of this Dutch wanted either but it is what it is. I trust that they will get me my game someday I hope. It's just a terrible set of circumstances and I appreciate you not fucking it up for everybody else.
Dutch created the drama.
Dutch fucked it up.
Maybe it feels good to skapegoat me - that doesn't change the fact that Dutch Pinball are fuck ups and liars.
Quoted from EternalLife:Information? We have it all. Dispute between ARA and DP, being worked out in court.
No proof of this being true. ARA could just be waiting for payment. Dutch may not even have lawyers. Until we see a firm's name our documents showing legal actions, we cannot assume this is true just because Jaap said so.
Quoted from Rick432:I wouldn't scapegoat you ever. This is frustrating for all of us.
On another note, what does a director for a cartoon like Family Guy do, exactly?
Do you get to fly to Seoul to stand behind a bunch of animators telling them to draw it again, but better this time?
Or do you just have to convince McFarlane to lay off the coke in exchange for some Mel Torme records?
I ask because I'm considering a career change...
Somewhere in between. not sure if you really want to know or are just being a snark. PM me if you're interested.
Quoted from wcbrandes:Can someone please pm me the exact part where Dutch pinball directly mislead us and lied about the boards being the issue and why we sat around. Lawyer wants this exact wording and proof and if their was an admission from Jaap if you could pm me this as well cheers Bill
Check your emails from Dutch. It's all in there. There's a NSN about board problems, then the email after the ARA email that says it was a cover.
Quoted from PinBalt:Here is a far out idea. I'm in this mess with you all but I was tired of being upset. My sense is that DP and ARA are emotionally pissed with each other, it is personal, and a burnt bridge has occurred. We all have heard the details and that path would likely just lead to legal efforts. My suggestion is to pursue a different pathway. We need a win win for all parties. My proposal is that we get ARA to release the 40+ games and parts through a joint effort on all three parties (ARA, DP, and Achievers). What if we turn this Shi% sandwhich into something positive by contributing cost differences for the 40+ machines to a Charity, e.g. Dutch Cancer Society, Childrens Hospital, or a choice of the CEO in conflict with DP. I would be willing to pay up money. Achievers have to pony up a bit more ($<1000) but get their games, DP ponies up a bit but gets parts for non ARA manufacturing. ARA gets positive publicity from donation effort and good will as a business and a tax write off.
I don't know, you may scoff at this thought but I was tired of being down/depressed and wanted to think of another more positive way. Take a conflict and redirect it to turn it into helping others less fortunate.
I think that's a fantastic idea. Would
It be possible to organize that many people to get on board with it and present the idea to ARA?
Quoted from PinBalt:Thanks Rarehero. I did email Jaap/Barry about this idea as well since it would have to involve all parties. I can see how they repsonnd first. I think a fund could be created somehow to donate to. That would be a detail post and agreement on DP and ARA ends. I did not think through details enough but wanted to pitch it if this even had legs. I think turning it to something positive can make all parties feel good, even if not fully satisfied, plus we help people/children that are in bad health.
Yeah I think it's a great idea. Maybe all parties are human enough that a cause helping children would give everyone enough perspective to bury the hatchet and move forward.
Quoted from EternalLife:This thread is becoming very undudelike. Let's try and help DP deliver TBL, not ruin them in the process.
Try to help? I paid them $8500. I've helped. GTFO if you're gonna be a sycophant. That gains us nothing.
Quoted from RTR:I definitely agree but DP pushed us into the post-Dude era of this project. Keeping them afloat and the dream alive is why I'm pushing for the outside party route first. They could get this figured out, but they gotta start acting more like the dude and a lot less like Mr. Lebowski first.
They're the nihilists and we're Walter ....except they do have hostages lol
Quoted from EternalLife:Rarehero, you need to calm the f*ck down.
Calmer than you are.
Eternal Life is playing the part of The Dude. I'm playing the part of Walter:
Quoted from EternalLife:RTR, being a hothead accomplishes nothing.
Being a kiss ass accomplishes nothing.
Quoted from EternalLife:I'm only saying lets work with DP to solve whatever issue there is to get this back on track
What does "work with DP mean? Continue to believe their stories and kiss their asses? No. It's not my job to get this "back on track" I'm a customer. I bought their shit. I want my shit! It's THEIR JOB to get it back on track.
Quoted from EternalLife:Code's not finished, want a half coded game?
Is that my fault, too? They've had a proto since 2014 ...why the fuck is the code not done? That has nothing to do with ARA.
Quoted from EternalLife:I want to work with the guys to make this dream a reality
So what are you doing to "work" with them, besides dangling from their ballbags?
Quoted from EternalLife:You're not playing a part, you're a real life jerk
Yeah, and you're a fucking cunt. Neither of our personality deficiencies has anything to do with getting us our games.
Quoted from chadderack:Give him a break. Apparently he's constantly on the john.
Quoted from eggbert52:If a non working Magic Girl can be sold for $25K then anything is possible. We are only talking about 25 people.
A non working MG at least physically exists. BOP SLE does not. Just as no one would ever order a game from Jpop again, no one is going to order this.
Quoted from rubberducks:I wish everyone would stop pretending that money is the only issue here.
ARA stood beside DP a year ago and laid out a production schedule that they immediately fell behind on, and got progressively more behind with ... seemingly whilst asking for more money.
Assuming the DP representative who spoke was not an imposter, there is clearly more at play than you or others are willing to acknowledge.
We should keep in mind that there are a good number of orders through Cointaker, which are deposits only - and DP doesn't have any of that money. If they were stalling on paying due to just flat out not having cash available, cash would have started to pour in their way once Cointaker started getting full payments for shipping games. Had they been able to hold off ARA long enough, they probably would have been table to pay them with the CT Lebowski money.
Quoted from Pinhead1982:Trawling through all these posts just going round and round and round ♂️.
Moderation... please lock thread until ARA representative has got back to Johnathan
Are you kidding? Never. Don't like the thread? BYE! Drain it.
As long as we're all F'D IN THE ASS (Lebowski quote, don't boot me), all discussion about Dutch remains open.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:Oh stop all these comments... dudes!
legal action, going to universal, each individual's opinion on how to run a proper business..getting mediators in?
Its time to look into the mirror, plain and simple, all dudes like me who pre-ordered did this (probably) in full
consciousness. The moment you paid, you were aware that it might have been a non-smart thing to do.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:BTW, I got my TBL delivered, it plays well, fun but some small issues which i can address myself. now im waiting on decent code.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:exactly.dudes that enter such a project stand there with their legs wide, they may get kicked.
You're a real piece of work. And by work, I mean something else.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:and they should not whine when it hurts, thats what i try to say
You got yours, to hell with the rest of us, eh?
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:the story doenst matter, you paid, youre in the hole, you did that with the risk in mind, now you suffer. Or... you can choose not to suffer and wait and see
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I'm having the hardest time understanding why universal would care about any of this. One would assume they've already been paid.
I can confirm that they care.
Quoted from PinBackpacker:How long before people start contacting ARA trying to buy TBLs directly?
We've already tried. They haven't bit....yet.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:once more...and goodnight..
forget about lawsuits, ARA, businessmodels, contracts beteen CM and DP, you will never know.Its none of your business. You all are in the same boat. Wait and see and maybe you get your machine. Dudes like us who are on the boat, it may sink or not. Dudes like me and you will not make a difference, it is and was our own risk.
Standing by DP is all whats left, so try to be possitive and keep supporting them is all you can do.
BTW I do have a TBL at home.
GTFO
Quoted from Pimp77:I've thumbs downed you so much I got a potential "abuse" message. LOL!
Am I gonna get a warning for thumbs upping you so much, Pimp!? Take my upright thumb! TAKE IT!!!!!!
Quoted from Rensh:The above is correct. The manager called Rene was fired on the spot and this was yesterday publically announced in the canteen in front of all the employees by 2 commissioners from ARA holding
Dang - and I can confirm that Renee was the point person at ARA in regards Lebowski. This could def lead to good news. Maybe. Who the F knows, the ins/outs/whathaveyou are getting crazier than the movie.
Quoted from Rensh:I think we should all go and play a rollercoaster Tycoon. This as a practice for the last week and coming weeks
Definitely this feels like a roller coaster. Jumping every direction and changing it by the second.
We should watch The Big Lebowski. I feel like we're in a real life version of the movie. Lots of ins, outs, whathaveyou...nihilists, ringers....the dude just wanted his rug.
I just had a nice chat with Barry....and as bonkers as I've been lately, I have to say - I'm feeling pretty positive. With the firing of Rene from ARA...it truly seems like things have the possibility of moving forward. I've heard about Rene from a few different people - and none of it was positive. So, I'm starting to now believe the Dutch extortion story and that Rene was the villain...after all, Rene was just fired! Barry said he didn't mind me posting this, but communication with ARA is happening again and they're meeting with them next week with high hopes to get things back on track.
This information is enough for me to back off from my anger over the situation...new shit has come to light, and I want to see how it plays out.
My apologies to those I have raged on in these heated and emotional times...and if all goes well, I will repeatedly and humbly apologize to DP. Sometimes it's really tough to balance hobbyist friendships when there are customer/seller relationships involved.
So....anyway....here's to the next chapter and hopefully happy ending to this saga.
Quoted from chadderack:Well, I for one am glad that you're shitting and not all backed up today
Quoted from sed6:Heighway got my money!
...and we'll have your back when another year or so goes by and you don't have your Alien.
Quoted from Astropin:Care to wager?
No, but to drop Heighway's name in this thread as some sort of good purchase alternative in 2017 is silly. The game was supposed to be out April 2015. Heighway's original business plan was 4 games a year. A few Alien "sample" games have trickled out, but there's no evidence of mass production. Buying a Heighway game right now is as much of a leap of faith risk as anything.
Vague, but to be expected. I didn't think everything would be solved today. Hopefully things will continue to go well and they can both agree to terms that make all parties happy.
Quoted from JimB:In the next two weeks, we will review and work on a new plan, contract and terms.
1 week later
Quoted from titanpenguin:Let's be honest, we all really kept coming back to see rarehero's rants.
Give me to the end of next week....
Quoted from eggbert52:I'm gonna go ahead and start the "Rarehero rant against Houdini" thread.
Nah, zero interest.
Quoted from jayhawkai:Triggering Rarehero...
Is that one of those things you squint at and eventually see a sailboat?
Quoted from Gutterballs:I've looked but can't find it in this string. Can anyone Direct me to a good summary of what DP announced about TBL at that recent pinball expo? thanks.
It's all in here.
Short version: They announced nothing about TBL, but then tried to sell a new $12,500 BOP.
A week later, the director at ARA was fired & a week or so ago talks resumed between ARA & Dutch. So - right now we're just sitting on our hands waiting for new information based on these new talks. We should have new info this week, and if things go silent again, everyone resumes going "Full Walter"
Quoted from ToucanF16:Wonder who will be the first to go "Full Walter"?
Wanna volunteer?
1 week later
Quoted from rubberducks:I'd be surprised if there was anything absolutely definitive from today, unless it ended up with fisticuffs and the two parties having to be dragged off each other.
In a situation where the MD of a reasonably sized company is summarily fired, over mishandling of not just this case but allegedly rather more, and a caretaker manager (or managers) are brought in from the holding company not just to clear up the mess but establish exactly what has gone on, things are unlikely to happen very quickly.
Who knows what the previous MD did to warrant that kind of dismissal. The DP case could be the most significant or the least significant thing he breached protocol on.
But then again, maybe I'm wrong. Guess we'll see.
IMO they've both had ample time to get their houses in order and today should have been the day to finalize plans to move forward. NSN's tend to drop in the middle of the night (PST) - so hoping for info when I wake up tomorrow.
The Vagueness.....ugh, I can't take the fucking vagueness. I'm sure there's some legalese they need to dance around and they don't wanna be caught in another PCB story - so that's prob why we're seeing this level of vagueness ....but man, give us SOMETHING in terms of details. Glarghghghghhhhhh....
Quoted from wcbrandes:Opps Rubberducks d and f key so close together my apologies
There's an edit button...but it's hilarious that you wrote that & kept it for us to laugh at.
Quoted from Mocean:He was a lot more than just a paid employee. Take a walk down memory lane over on the pinballcontrollers forums. I don't think it's overstated to say that he was essential to DP ever existing as a pinball company. He was there from the start and made BoP2.0 a reality. He's really a seriously talented software engineer and has been a valuable member of the p-roc community for a long while now.
Even if he's transitioned to only part time status with DP this is an enormous loss.
Sad times.
Seeing that DP was always more "a few dudes" than a real company - is this really a surprise? They don't have any product going out like a company would need if it were to have full time employees. I guarantee he was never getting anything resembling a salary. Makes sense that he's gotta find "real" work. The real question is - is he the type of guy to "pull a Lyman"...work on the game on his own time or has he completely distanced himself from the project?
Quoted from Pinhead1982:Think it is the 2nd machines sales that will help DP make a small profit and pay ARA.
No ones gonna buy that thing for $12.5k, so that plan is out.
Quoted from MPRAMONE:for 9/10 K$ average price for one TBL dream in the US adding 2.5 K$ to actually make the game a reality would have people do it I think
We're talking about BOP 2.0 for $12.5k, not raising the price of TBL.
My email to Dutch:
Pros: Games go out, games get made, Dutch Pinball continues. Gary Stern & Jack are now minority holders in their companies and they've all been better for it.
Cons: None. In my opinion, not doing this deal results in 0% for you, your buyers and the future of DP. At the end of the day - Stern and JJP had their own factories and still needed help. Without a factory - being partners with ARA is without a doubt the best and only course. Maybe this wasn't the ideal from the start - bit this is where we are now. It's the only solution. I don't see another investor swooping in to save this thing. It's a blessing that ARA wants to continue!
Please go for it!
Quoted from flynnibus:Con: DP is no longer DP
Think about it... the reason you all bought into these games is the direction and 'difference' these guys picked for their games and themes. When they are no longer in control, who is to say the new boss aligns with their risk tolerance or creative choices??
If they can't manufacture or ship games, none is that matters. What they started and who they were in 2013 is irrelevant. It's 2017, the train is off the tracks. Egos and pride have to be cast aside here. Stern did it, they live. JJP did it, they live. You know who stuck to their pride and ego? John Popadiuk. Kevin Kulek.
The historical lesson is there. DP has been offered with a choice to save them, their games, their customers, their reputation, their future. If they think they can do it better without ARA, that's pride, arrogance and greed winning over sound logic. Without ARA, they will fail, and we're all fucked.
Quoted from flynnibus:It does matter - to think it doesn't would mean saying "any business leader is the same as any other" which is clearly false.
DP aren't business leaders. They're guys who made a cool game, had someone else build it...and now are at the mercy of those building it.
Quoted from flynnibus:You are only looking at those 40 games or these existing orders... that's just cleaning up the past. What good is a company that has no future?
Wrong. In this theoretical deal, ARA is going to build the rest of the Lebowski orders ...and if they can right this ship and make all pre-orderers whole, that gives new buyers confidence - they can sell MORE Lebowskis after that (given they want to renew the license) - also, BOP 3.0...they have the Proto, if this deal goes through, they'll be building those. And again, once this ship gets righted and DP/ARA have customer confidence - there CAN be a future. The entire future of DP hangs on this deal.
Quoted from flynnibus:That's a ruined DP - maybe they shipped TBL and some or all of them.. but DP would still be done.
DP is done NOW. They can't ship shit, they can't sell future shit. No factory. No customer confidence. This deal gets them back on track. It's the only way.
Quoted from flynnibus:So yes... there is a Con to the path... the Con being you have new leadership that is not the same as the old... if you valued the old.
We like DP's designs. We like their creative ideas. Do we like their leadership? F*CK NO! They NEEEED leadership. Then Barry & Jaap can do what they do best - design games.
Quoted from flynnibus:If people think it's just money holding up the deal... which people keep postulating it is... Money can come from other places besides ARA.
Where? There are no pinball angel investors willing to dip into this muck. Made sense with Stern - they had a factory, employees and a history. Made sense with JJP, they had a factory, employees and a history...just needed some oversight and a new gameplan (and money). DP is 2 dudes. That's it. At this point, partnering with ARA is the only option that gives them a shot at being a legit pinball company and not a massive failure.
Quoted from flynnibus:The idea ARA wants to own a pinball company partnership doesn't make sense to me. Want a bigger piece of the pie? Sure... own and direct? Doesn't add up...
They're looking at Stern - making millions, doing it right. They see the situation they're in, and they see the possibility of where it can go if done right. Barry & Jaap have the creative talent. ARA has the manufacturing infrastructure. Clearly shit didn't work when they were each in their own bubbles. They need to join forces to function!
Quoted from frolic:Begins and ends with lack of refunds for anyone who wants out.
Boom.
...and also, should we define "broke" in this situation? When people say "DP is broke", sure, none of us know what's in their bank accounts...but do they have the financial ability to make games themselves? No. Do they have the financial ability to take TBL away and make it elsewhere? No. So.......yeah.
Quoted from fosaisu:Agree with everything else you're saying, but your train derailment metaphor in a Big Lebowski thread will not stand. Goddamn planes and mountains, on the other hand ...
I love you.
Quoted from flynnibus:I think you have some seriously tinted glasses. The Stern making millions gave me a good chuckle.
I think you have some seriously math adverse glasses. Let's do a little conservative math. I'm even gonna round down the numbers to take into account distrib margins, and I'm prob rounding down too much...but, just to prove a point:
One game, lets say Ghostbusters.
500 LE x $7000 = $3,500,000
1000 Prem x $6000 = $6,000,000
1000 Pro x $4500 = $4,500,000
Total $14,000,000
OK, lets assume they mark up the games 50%...that's $7,000,000 in the door
Stern says it costs $1,000,000 to develop a game...$6,000,000
...and I'm sure they've sold more Ghostbusters than in my example. PLUS, all the other titles they sell. Take out money for salaries.....Stern's still making millions.
Quoted from flynnibus:And what makes ARA any better of a leader of a pinball design company? That's my point... there are negatives to letting just anyone become your new majority owner.
A pinball design company is useless without a factory. Period. DP ceases to exist, and we're all fucked without ARA.
Quoted from flynnibus:One pinball title does not make a pinball company with a future. ARA can build TBLs.. and then what? You still need the rest of the company to be a success... and leadership to get SUCCESSFUL designs to market. That is not a given. While DP have not proven themselves business managers - they have proven themselves good game designers/directors. Bad management can ruin that.
DP has already ruined themselves with bad management. ARA is the last hope. They have more leverage than DP in this situation. Period. ARA doesn't need Dutch Pinball...they have other shit going on. Dutch Pinball needs ARA.
Quoted from flynnibus:This is yet another leap based on little. DP needs ARA because of how far in they are with them on this project... not because ARA is the only possible way to have a business.
Leap based on little!? Have you no concept of what has happened!?!?! No, ARA *is* the only possible way to have a business (for Dutch Pinball). Without Lebowski being finished, DP has nothing. Period. The games and parts will not be freed. They'll have zero customer confidence in their efforts to make a 2nd game before the first is resolved.
Quoted from flynnibus:Remember why Jack and other split from Stern?? Because they didn't like what management was forcing the games to be. There is no automatic save that says ARA equals DP building their dreams.
The story of the market in 2010 is irrelevant to the story of DP in 2017. Who gives a fuck about DP "building their dreams"...we're no longer in dreamland, we're in realityland. Reality = 300 customers want their fucking games. Reality = DP doesn't have a factory. ARA does.
Quoted from flynnibus:Your logic fails in that it doesn't even explain how ARA would get involved with DP to start with...
DP came to them and said "Build this for $$$". ARA said yes.
Quoted from flynnibus:Yet you all ordered TBL without DP having a factory...
You're the King of All Irrelevance. What we did with what we knew in 2014 vs. what's happening now is IRRELEVANT.
Quoted from flynnibus:You didn't even know who ARA was, or what they could do before DP introduced them... nor could you name any of their peers. So I'd caution against the 'ara is the only way this works'. ARA wants money, not games. Money can come from alot of places.
Again, what we did in 2014 is irrelevant. In 2017, ARA has 40 games and 100's of games worth of parts. DP has expended their cash on these parts. Humor us. Where's the fucking money, Lebowski!?!?!?
Quoted from flynnibus:f they had games ready to buy.. and people wanted them.. they'd buy them. The pinball community has no real 'black list' and no matter how hard these buyers get fisted... if the next game is ready and is what they want, they'll buy.
Again, this is 2017. We're post Predator, post Jpop's ponzi scheme, and in the midst of Lebowski-gate.
Quoted from flynnibus:Yes... which is why your theory of who will get involved or not is bunkus. ARA didn't care DP didn't have a factory, or didn't have a history.. They looked at the business, not pinside history.
Then school me, FFS!!!! Where does the money come from if DP doesn't continue with ARA!?!?!?
Quoted from flynnibus:Step back and listen to yourself.
STFU and listen to other people.
Quoted from flynnibus:... and generally just focus on Gross Margin and think that is even comparable to actual net profit. That was pretty cute.
Oh spare me the condescension...and Holy F you are THICK. I posted ONE game's low estimates...it was in many millions...couple that with ALL THEIR TITLES, I said you could remove ALL OTHER COSTS involved in business...and they'd still be making millions.
Quoted from flynnibus:The lesson learned is the only thing that matters in Rarehero's world is the last 24hrs... No wonder you flip out when a week or so goes by and not to your liking.
I'm flipping out at your inane assessment of things, not so much the situation itself. You've managed to become worse than DP in a DP thread. Congrats.
Quoted from Ballypinball:remember they didn't even have a license to begin with
That's a lie.
There was a point where they were showing things before they had art approval from the licensor - but, they had the license.
They also has the music license but didn't realize that didn't give them the rights to the master tracks.
This is why they brought Roger Sharpe in - to help with all the ins, outs and whathaveyous.
Quoted from Ballypinball:Really like predator ha?
Have you seen the contract date and number of games and deadline, expiry date?
Normal license is 2 years
Look, we all have our beef with Dutch. Legit beef based on legit problems. Don't add bullshit and lies to the mix. GTFO if you're gonna be like that.
They have the license. Don't you think Universal would have said "the fuck you talkin about, man"? when I contacted them if DP didn't have it? Do you think Roger Sharpe is a liar?
It's really rich seeing this type of slander coming from you, Wayne....the guy who had people's money for almost a decade and couldn't succesfully remake MM. Should we dip back into that sack of lies? GTFO.
Quoted from highdef:I guess the plaque serves as your serial #?
Yeah I guess that was the whole "True serial number" thing. They weee being made in order of purchase - or randomly assigned a plaque like Stern LE's. Not sure what the serial plan for the post-achiever versions is.
Quoted from rvdv:I say forget this and watch the movie instead Dudes.
Yup, I barely care about this game anymore...of course I still want it on principal...I paid for it...but honestly, I'd rather just watch my Blu-Ray and that's all I need in Lebowski-land.
Quoted from Mike_M:ARA don't roll on shabbos!
ARA don't roll on (insert day of the week).
Quoted from rlslick:This is definitely dragging out longer than I expected! It's been over a month since they started having meetings behind closed doors to settle their business relationship and still nothing to show for it. I'm really wondering if either party gives a shit at this point?? Has anyone talked with DP or ARA recently? Any news to share with anxious pre-owners like myself as to what progress has been made this week/last? UHG
They better give a shit unless they want about 300 enemies, a few of which are ready to start lawsuits.
I've sorta half-joked about selling my spot before...but I'm serious now. It's not that I've lost faith (I talked to Barry this morning and he was still positive about everything) ...but I've lost interest. I'm emotionally disinvested now. I don't even care about the game anymore. The entire experience has ruined any possible joy that may come with this game. If I actually get mine, I'm most likely just going to sell it.
Anyone interested in buying my spot for #56, which has been sitting at ARA since September '16, it's for sale. I just want the $8500 I paid for it. If I actually take delivery, I'll be selling it for $10k+
Have patience or a gambling spirit and wanna take it off my...well, not my hands...take it off my conscience? Hit me up.
Quoted from mgpasman:You make it sound like a great deal, but chances are slimming down by the minute, shouldn't you be selling your spot for (a lot) less than what you paid? I have seen people selling RAZA or AIW spots for under half of what they paid for it.
RAZA and AIW don't exist and never will. My game has existed since last September.
Just you have some context - I don't need the money. This isn't a "fire sale". If I'm going to take the route of losing money, it'll be as part of a lawsuit. I just literally don't care about the game anymore. Some wants to buy my spot - it's available. If not, I'll wait and whatever happens, happens. I'm just not excited for it anymore. I won't lose sleep if I never play it. In my life, The Big Lebowski is merely a great movie, it's no longer something I care to own in pinball form.
Quoted from rubberducks:If Barry is "positive" about everything, then presumably Jaap wrote that update? Maybe he shouldn't do that again ... difficult to construe any of either the tone or content as remotely positive.
Here's what was misleading IMO - the letter sounds like shit is over with ARA again since they talk about exploring other options. But it's not - they're just waiting for a response.
I guess their play is by letting ARA know they're not the only option, they're hoping they'll continue to negotiate without asking for 51% of the company.
So - it's still an active situation. I think most of us read the letter as though ts back to the pre-Rene situation again.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Based on the sleazy manner in which Nivoge slipped onto the scene and demanded 51%, rather than trying to be a 50/50 partner, indicates they probably would have taken steps to screw DP out of any money.
If DP hasn't paid ARA for shipped games - then who's trying to screw who out of money, and what's the likelyhood DP has any capital to keep this whole thing going? That's why most of us thought the 51% deal made sense...it's the "bail out" DP most likely needs. Not sure how this continues otherwise.
Quoted from EternalLife:If ARA said there are only 10 completed games when there are clearly many more - how do we believe anything from ARA?
We can't believe anything from anyone at this point. Major problem. Look at Heighway and his lies and where that company is right now. All of these dreamers are a bunch of living nightmares.
Thanks for destroying pinball, you bastards!!!!
Quoted from wcbrandes:Thanks for destroying pinball, you bastards!!!!
I thought you were Family Guy, not South Park!
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:I opened a dispute with PayPal on another pin and payment was made 200 days prior. I submitted it and went to open disputes queue and found it empty. Went to closed disputes list and saw the one I just entered had been closed with a note stating charge occurred more than 180 days and case was being closed. Pffft! F that, PayPal guarantee did nothing for me.
Greg, did you get around that roadblock yet?
Oh gaddammit, you're right - it instantly closed all of them. Glargh! I wonder if I can get someone from Paypal on the phone...
Quoted from TigerLaw:Try with your credit card company if you run your pay pal payments through a credit card. They usually have a longer window for disputes (a year in the US, some can be up to two years like Amex in some cases...Canadians usually only have six months even with their credit card company...even for same card).
Nope, my PayPal was linked to my bank. I set up a dispute with my bank, and they're sending me all sortsa paperwork and shit...but if they then go and dispute it with PayPal, PayPal will probably just tell them to F off as well.
I still have one card to play - getting back in touch with Universal again! Dutch thought I was bluffing...I wasn't...and they were NOT happy last time I went to Universal and begged me to diffuse the situation (which I did, as that's when the Rene firing went down so it seemed like shit was gonna work out). So - they know I'll do it.
Quoted from TigerLaw:How long does the license allow them to manufacture games? If you or anyone know...of course. Seems like at some point the license must expire and then it doesn't matter what deal is cut with ARA (absent a costly renewal and more legal fees)...
When Roger Sharpe was on K's podcast, he said he got the license extended for them. Not sure for how long or what any of the details are...but Roger made it sound like it was no prob.
Quoted from MrBally:The girls prancing around Expo before the reveal of the machine. Then the Expo "private" party. With more girls who were paid well. Then the New York City party. The flights back & fourth to other shows for people & machines. The travel expenses. They were living large when the money was flowing.
Not sure if they have any more travel plans at this point - but IMO they should be BANNED from any more Pinball Shows/Events until things are worked out. As it stands, too many pinball customers are sitting here screwed. Same goes for Andrew Heighway, John Popadiuk, and Kevin Kulek....none should be allowed at pinball shows. If they show their faces, I think there's cause to call the police...as it stands, they've all stolen from us.
Quoted from Rensh:Here we go again.
If you truely think DP is lying on a Fiji island beach doing nothing besides enjoying the good life and needs pressure to start working on TBL again, pls fee free to contact Universal. In all other cases I just don't see how this helps our case. Universal has no control over ARA, worse case they revoke the license from DP which leaves us with ??
I understand you are angry and need to blow off steam but this is just not helping.
But hey, this is just my opinion man.
What's with this Fiji thing? I never said anything about Fiji. Here are some facts:
-DP claims there isn't a money problem on their end.
-DP claims they're going to go to another manufacturer. That implies they have money.
-I asked DP for a refund multiple times. I was refused or ignored. I told them in my desperation for facts, I would be contacting Universal. They also ignored this - perhaps guessing I was bluffing.
-I wasn't bluffing.
-DP hated last time I talked to Universal, they asked me to contact them again and tell them I was cool with everything. I did and squashed it.
-I've had patience waiting for them to work shit out, I think they blew it with ARA by refusing the deal.
-Going back to my first point - if money's not an issue, they should refund me.
If I go to Universal again, DP's not going to like it again - they know I'll do it. Isn't it worth it to them to refund me so I'll go away? If they can afford to take this all to a new manufacturer, they can afford to refund me.
They called my bluff, I'm calling theirs. What other power do I have as a customer right now? I chose to wield it.
Two things can stop me:
1. Refund. I vanish.
2. ABSOULUTE IRREFUTABLE FACTS about how his gaddamn situation. They trust us to know the whole truth, I can trust them again, and I shut up.
Without facts and trust, this thing is a clusterfucker free for all. That's on DP. Don't use me as your skapegoat, Rens!
Feel free to go tattle on me again.
Quoted from Skins:What DP needs to do is come clean. Their laze-faire attitude towards the whole thing is bullshit. If they don't/can't lay out their position to their customers, then they need to lawyer up and tell everyone they believe they're right and feel the courts will see it their way. They are out of time and don't understand they are no longer in control of the ship. Someone is going to force their hand and they shouldn't be surprised when it happens. I'm curious, when is BOP 3.0 shipping?
Bingo bingo bingo.
They claim they're doing what they're doing to save their company/brand. They're in denial if they don't understand how toxic their brand is becoming day after day. Are they completely unaware of Jpop, Skit-B ...and now even Heighway!? They're lumped in with these guys. They're are the villains of pinball. There's almost certainly no coming back from this. Even if the Lebowskis eventually go out - No one would ever pre-order a game from them again, and I don't think they have the capital to run their company any other way.
Quoted from Dkjimbo:This Stockholm syndrome-like loyalty to a company that has done nothing but lie or stretch the truth and has no logical plan moving forward and no transparency is ludicrous.
The saddest thing about this whole debacle is that they weren't liars. Not like Jpop & skit-B were from day 1. Not like Andrew. They successfully created, licensed, produced and shipped BOP 2.0. They brought those beautiful awesome TBL protos around the world. They made the deal with ARA, they started shipping games. There was no weirdness until quasi recently, but talk about a balloon popping. It's just sad.
Quoted from PismoArcade:Didn't they lie about having board issues when the ARA mess started or am I mixing them up with Heighway?
Yes, that was the lie that snowballed is to where we are now.
Quoted from Sonny_Jim:I thought there was a big stink last year when one of their American employees (Phil?) got cold feet/thought that something was amiss and started refunding everybody he could?
Yes, Philgate was a red flag of what was to come - but after Philgate, they still delivered BOP 2.0 & started shipping TBL. So, it seemed like a bump in the road - but in retrospect was a deeper event than some of us believed.
Quoted from Sonny_Jim:That was just a kit though, wasn't it? A world of difference between ordering a handful of COTS parts (and getting some DMD fascias made) and building 300 games.
True - but as we've seen with pinball, code/sound/animation is a HUGE part of making a game. They accomplished that, arguably better than what Stern or others had done as well - full color animation, 2.1 high quality audio...it's a polished piece of pinball work.
Quoted from metallik:If Phil had such little faith in DP, why should anyone else have had more?
I've witnessed these boutique companies sometimes inspiring a zealotry and cult-like following....and perhaps some of us, me included, were caught in that phenomenon with Dutch.
I've remained friends with Phil throughout this all...I think he's a good guy, he did the right thing back then.
Quoted from EternalLife:If they refund one person, they would possibly have to refund everyone and there's realistically not enough money to do that at this time. They are heavily invested in materials and IP which they could leverage in a deal with a new CM if a better deal with ARA can not be negotiated. A money stream is great to have, but not essential for creating a new deal with a new CM.
If they have confidence in their side of things, refunding $8500 on a game they know they can sell for $10k once the problems are solved shouldn't be a problem.
Quoted from unigroove:They still aren't. Just because you (and others) don't have all the inside info, and rather go by assumptions and speculations, doesn't mean DP are lying. DP share what they can, but ARA is reading Pinside too and why would DP let them look into their cards? Would you?
So I noticed you offered your game for sale. If Pinside was a stock market the value of TBL would have dropped significantly due to all the speculation and assumptions in this thread. That's all fine, but it doesn't make any sense that you're trying to sell your spot for $8500. I get that you want your money back. It's fine that's you're willing to get out and sell your spot, but the 8500 number is way off. Partly due to your own participation in this thread the value of delivered games on the Pinside market may have gone up, but the value of games being held hostage, or not even build, on the Pinside market simply dropped as they may never be released or build. That's simply how stockmarkets work. DP also indicated they aren't refunding anyone once production started and parts had to be bought. No exceptions for anyone, including you, which actually seems fair. It woudn't be fair if they would refund you, but no-one else.
So that $8500 game you bought simply isn't worth $8500 at the moment. So what is it worth? Well, that just depends on how much people are willing to pay for an uncertainty. If you want to speculate, that's what this is. I'm willing to offer you $3000 USD for your game. If it ever gets released, it goes straight to me. If it doesn't, I lost 3K. Yes, that means you lose $5500, but at least you get some of your money back. It will be my risk whether your game will be released or not, but as things stand right now that game doesn't appear to be moving anytime soon. So you can take 3K now, leave the conversation and start living a happy life, or stay in which isn't likely to make you (and others) very happy. PM me if interested. We'll draw up some paperwork, I'll send you a paypal payment and off you go.
(contents edited by Mod team)
You're friends with Barry & Jaap, you probably DO have the inside info, while giving US shit for speculating...what else can we do when we're dealing with this mess!?!?! For all we know, you know things are about to get resolved and you're trying to get my game on the cheap. If you really want my game, give $8500 to Barry and Jaap, then they can formally issue me a refund and give you my game.
Stop lashing out on fucked over customers. All responsibility lies with those who sold us a game and haven't delivered.
Quoted from unigroove:what else you can do? there's nothing you can do that will solve the situation, so you might as well do nothing, sit back and wait for DP to work out a solution.
I can call you out on your fuckery, is what I can do. No one TRUSTS that they're able to work out a solution with the lack of transparency going on here. We will NOT sit here and do nothing while we've had our money/games held hostage. I can go back to Universal for help in uncovering the truth. DP didn't like it the first time I did it...all it takes is a refund, I vanish. Now go away unless you care to share the information about DP/ARA you most likely know.
Quoted from unigroove:Heck, you probably know even more since you're talking to Barry more often than I do.
Creeper stalker. Pretend I'm a woman and STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM ME.
Quoted from unigroove:yet here you are stirring up a mess.
Victim blamer. Not a shock.
Quoted from PismoArcade:Trying to figure out why Unigroove would want to risk losing the good will that he's built with his magazine by appearing to be a DP apologist/ sycophant.
He feels it's more important to insult me and skapegoat me instead of revealing the truth of the situation.
Quoted from titanpenguin:What amazes me the most in this thread is the number of supposed pinheads who seem to want DP to fail.
Who wants them to fail? Wanting truth and accountability isn't the same as wanting failure. This game was the dream of its creators and buyers. No one wants failure.
Quoted from titanpenguin:DP counted on ARA to build games at a specific rate that would open new revenue streams to them. Whether it be intentional or by chance, ARA has created this perfect storm through failure to "abide" by the contract.
...and ARA counted on DP to pay them, and claims they didn't. It's a they said/they said situation, but I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.
1 week later
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:On a side note, he who shall not be named (on Pinside) has reported in his latest podcast that Rarehero has sold his TBL interest to someone else. If true, congrats to Greg and I hope that he was able to recover as much of his investment as possible! For the rest of us above #51 +/-, the long anxious wait for our TBL continues ...
Not sure I should post anymore since I'm not a member....but I got 100% of my $8500.
Now I'm trying to decide if I should sell my entire BOP w/ 2.0 or just remove the kit & sell that.
Then I will truly be free of "all this".
I wish everyone the best. I hope everyone gets their money or games.
Peace & Love.
3 months later
Quoted from Skins:Jaap: New orders will have to be filled first to fund previous preorders build.
Wow. There's the proof that they're out of cash.
What if there are not enough new buyers? Who would pre-order AGAIN!? This is basically a pre-order crowdfunding deal now...$10k for a Chinese game!?!?
I'm sorry guys. Oooph. What a slap to those who's games are still hostage at ARA. Speaking of ARA - they're not gonna just disappear. That's still a thing.
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:They did apologize for that and even split ways with the guy who said it.
He split ways with them. Strange things were already afoot back then in 2014.
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:Not all EAs got a t-shirt. Regardless, the ultimate slap in the face will be if some later buyers get a TBL and some or all EAs don't get their game.
Any EA's want my shirt? I was gonna toss it in a can with my VIP party badge and burn it - but if someone wants it, hit me up.
Quoted from Rensh:Haven’t listened yet but can guess what he has to say...
Psychic Rench, everyone!
Quoted from Rensh:... he breaks first his own promise about no more posting if he gets a refund and now uses a podcast to air his opinion?
I can talk about my opinion and the facts of what I went through with anyone. I didn't sign an NDA. No one told me not to talk about it. I have no problem talking to my friends about my Dutch journey. In 2014 who ever thought I'd be done with this project and friends with Chris? Pinball is a funny world.
Quoted from Rensh:I think Kaneda is also worried. He promised after all at a podcast to wear a DPshirt at expo if DP has the TBL ready in October. He even skipped expo this year for this
Worried about what? Expo's over.
Quoted from Rensh:Having a good feeling a first preproduction is truely ready in October. So which show shall we select than were Kaneda has to wear the DPshirt? I saw rarehero I has one leftover
I already gave it away.
Quoted from RTR:So did you get a refund from DP with your Universal blackmail scheme or did you sell your spot?
I had no blackmail scheme. I was looking for information from the licensor of the product that I paid $8500 for, hadn't received, and wasn't receiving reliable information about.
Listen to the podcast if you actually wanna know.
Quoted from RTR:So, I assume you took the refund and then didn't call Universal?
Don't make me listen to the podcast. I was going on previous posts that made it look like you sold your spot.
Don't make me type out what I've already explained in convenient audio form. Instead of continuing false assumptions and accusations, my story is there for anyone to listen to on Kornado's Panbool Pordcast.
Quoted from RTR:So DP gave you the money and you didn't call Universal?
If you are happy with what you did, just say yes. I typed it all out for you.
FWIW, you type a lot anyway.
You're promoting a false narrative. Stop it. If you want to be lazy and not listen to the facts, that's on you. Stop slandering me.
Quoted from RTR:Slander, lol. Pushing for a refund in exchange for NOT contacting Universal is all you talked about 4 months ago. So just tell us - Did you get a refund from DP in exchange for not contacting Universal or not?
You've posted 4 times already. You could have answered this an hour ago. I'm really just curious. Heck, I might want in on it.
Also curious as to why you are promoting Kaneda's pinball podcast so hard. He got kicked out of here for continuous shit stirring, I genuinely want to know why you guys hooked up.
Literally everything you keep repeating is wrong.
You keep typing falsehoods when you could have listened to 10 minutes of a podcast to hear the true story.
There's zero truth to this narrative that I'm a villain in this situation.
I'm not promoting anything. I discussed my story with a friend. It's available for you to listen to. Unless you're deaf...are you deaf?
Quoted from RTR:This is a sample post of where I derived my questions from. Pretty clear you were publicly pushing for a refund in exchange for not contacting Universal. It's really the only reason I am asking. Just remain calm dude!
Calmer than you are....
It's all there in that post...so not sure why you think I didn't go to Universal. Here's the short version:
-My refund requests were denied.
-I did contact Universal.
-They contacted Dutch.
-Rene was fired from ARA.
-Dutch contacted me and asked me to tell Universal shit was cool.
-I told Universal shit was cool. (I thought it was - this is when they were in talks with ARA again).
-Shit blew up again between ARA & Dutch.
-I told Dutch I wanted out for the 100th time.
-They wired me back my money, claimed they had found someone to buy my spot.
The end.
Quoted from RTR:I mean, that's not exactly a summary of the entire post. That just covered your two calls to Universal. You did infer that you would call Universal a third time in that post. It was an "or else" statement. I clipped it out for clarity above. This was the time I was referring to that you didn't call Universal and it appeared to = refund.
At the time, you downplayed it as someone (magically) bought your spot. And you vanished for a while. The timing was weird, but what the heck I didn't care. I only got interested in it today because you referred to it as a refund, which made more sense to me.
But cool, thanks for clearing that up. Peace.
I never claimed someonebought my spot. After I posted that I was out, a bunch of people made that assumption.
I also have no idea if my contact with Universal was DP's motivation to refund me. They claim they don't read Pinside...although Rensh was probably sending them my rants, as he's a known tattle rat. My final refund request email before they agreed had no mention of Universal at all. They had told me that if I sold my spot they'd transfer the ownership in their system - I said "if you can easily transfer ownership, why can't you just easily refund me" - almost as a joke - I didn't think they'd say yes.
Quoted from TKDalumni:Where? Well?
Quarterworld in Portland. Amazing barcade btw - I think they have 35 pins, tons of amazing vids too. Their Lebowski #35 has a slight delay on the right flipper when lowering, and the upper playfield flipper sometimes didn't work. But overall it was still an amazing machine...just a shame how it all went down. I'd prob still like one down the road, but I won't pay scalper prices for an existing one and I wouldn't pre-order until there is proof that this China experiment isn't bullshit. So, if all goes well and everyone gets their games, that means 2nd hand prices won't be bonkers and I'll grab one in a few years when people sell 'em off.
6 months later
Quoted from Pinhead1982:I said that with Heighways liquidation it is a concern and that I hoped DP would be more forthcoming in an event like that.
I told Barry they needed to be more transparent after the Skit-B & Jpop debacles exploded. Yet, here we still are. You’ve all seen how the dominos are falling. Is everyone still going to just “wait and hope for the best” still? In 2018? If Dutch looks in the mirror, the reflection they see is Heighway.
...and before the sycophants attack me for not having skin in the game, good friends of mine DO have fully paid orders in and I feel protective of them. A good friend of mine who’s not in the hobby bought one, partially off of my excitement for the product. He’s asked multiple times for a refund and has been refused. He will go check in with Universal licensing soon if he’s not refunded. That’s what ended up working for me. I suggest others who want out let DP know that they will do the same.
Quoted from titanpenguin:Only on pinside can the demise of one pinball company be considered an issue for the overall business health of another. Heighway’s failure was due to a completely separate set of issues. I don’t see the guys at DP living high off the hog and starting a boat company.
My bad, everything seems great. While I was gone, did the 200-300 people who ordered games 3-4 years ago all get their games? 
Only on Pinside is there neverending trust for those who haven’t earned it.
Quoted from gliebig:Is the plan to keep the same number of limited pins or are they planning to open up production and sell as many as possible?
This was never sold or marketed as a limited pin.
Quoted from foxtj24:Since they are out of money and new order profits are funding the preorders. How many at 10K do they need to sell to raise enough for build the 150 pre-paid orders? 300? 400? Is it possible that many people will buy a 10k machine from a failing company?
That is THE question that DP has dodged and pre-orderers should be pushing HARD to get an answer to.
Yet, this reality seems to be relatively ignored.
Baffling.
Quoted from wcbrandes:posting again for you Rare!
You and I ask these questions...but we're not even getting the game anymore. I don't get why people with years-ago paid deposits aren't asking these questions.
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:Not to mention throwing good money after bad by incurring attorney fees.
For some people, principal is more important than the money. That’s why the group that took Jpop to court stuck to their guns....they could afford to make the statement they wanted to make to the person who dared take them for a ride.
Quoted from titanpenguin:I really hope many of you are ready to eat crow. While many of you have been trash talking, DP has been learning the art of pinball.
Proof to back up this statement?
Quoted from Mr68:Today, armed with that hindsight, you armchair quarterbacks fly in and basically tell everyone how stupid they were and the implication is how superior you are to them.
Kim is right. It was a different time back then. We didn’t know what we know now, and DP seemed to be legit at the time. They had 3 gorgeous and playable prototypes, they made and eventually shipped BOP 2.0.
That was then, this is now. No one should shame pre-orderers...however, just like Heighway had his Hilton, DP has their sycophants and shills who refuse to hold them accountable and scoff at those who are asking very basic & realistic questions about this whole thing. It’s NORMAL to be skeptical and if you have money in on it, it’s NORMAL to be worried. DP hasn’t earned trust yet or given people the specific and detailed information they deserve about where this goes from here. Until they do that, it’s NORMAL to assume this conmaony will go the way of Heighway and Jpop. The burden of proof is on DP right now, and they refuse to engage and deliver much needed facts, not to mention GAMES.
Don’t rip on the victims, but keep asking questions. DP must be held accountable. They owe people truth & games.
Now that Farsight’s Pinball Arcade app has lost all the B/W tables, they’re prob desperate for content. Maybe Dutch should approach Farsight & license Lebowski to them. As much as I have disdain for this whole situation, if Lebowski pinball was on Nintendo Switch for $10, I’d buy it. They’d prob sell a ton on iOS, Steam, PS4, etc....could help financial problems & put out free advertising for the game.
You’re welcome, DP.
Quoted from Rick432:Brilliant flipping idear./not sarcasm
Wouldn't there be licensing issues, however?
It would really just come down to Universal saying yes/no and how much it would cost. Farsight has done digital versions of a bunch of Stern licensed games so far - GB, AC/DC, Trek, LAH, Harley, Starship Troopers....and they did a lot of licensed B/W games, but some they had to do Kickstarters to afford the license.
Quoted from highdef:You say that DP isn't taking new deposits or payments, but yet, we have to wait until they figure out their "pyramid plan" to get our games. I'm almost 100 games back, which means I'm never going to see this game in 2018. I'm having serious doubts about 2019 too. You would think they'd want to take new orders so that they could forecast and land better pricing on parts and materials. They definitely have money issues if they're seeking financial investment, which means that their projected SOP in May or June is/was fluff. These are small quantities, so what is the holdup on parts?
Part of this mystery is: Why would Xytec agree to build this game, knowing what happened with ARA, and knowing DP doesn't have the money to fund all these games being built? I imagine Xytec agreed if they could keep most of the profits to cover their initial investment...and if that's the case, why would there need to be new investor money? The fact that we still don't have concrete answers as to what really is going on financially between all the parties makes the whole thing to be continually shady. DP owes buyers a FACT SHEET and a SPECIFIC endgame plan. "Silence because there is no news" is B.S.
Quoted from fosaisu:It would be surprising if XYTECH answers (other than to put you back in contact with DP), part of the benefit of being a contract manufacturer is not having to deal with end-users directly.
Well, that's how we finally got answers about the PCB-delay lie...a few of us started to email ARA - and we got responses that were different than the DP story.
Since DP has gone silent, it's the right of anyone with money in on this project to contact Xytech and/or Unviersal Studios licensing division to get information.
Quoted from MPRAMONE:what good thing to happen after that ? games coming out faster ?
I guess like Rensh wrote earlier that DP do what they can right now and they struggle hard despite what some of us think of the situation.
DP is in a mess of their own creation. People think what they think because there's nothing else they can do without information from DP. No one here is obligated to "wait/see/hope", especially after what we've seen happen to Heighway. All that matters now is transparency, communication, and facts. Anything else is irrelevant.
Quoted from RTR:I have never seen the angle of Universal Contact = EA's receiving machines. I see the opposite.
It's about getting to the truth, when DP refuses to be transparent and speak to their customers.
When I contacted Universal, they had no idea shit had gone south - but were very concerned about making things right. They got in touch with DP about it right away, and Barry called me and asked me to tell the Universal people things were going to be cool. Now - this was right after ARA's director was fired, talks were starting again and things looked like they were going to work out. So I told the Universal peeps I was satisfied with how things were going at the moment, and they were happy with that. Of course then everything went to hell...and I was going to let them know what was going on - but that's when DP refunded me....and I honored my refund by letting it go.
Now, just because I let it go, doesn't mean you guys can't make your own inquiries.
...and before you ask why I'm back and yammering about it:
1.) I'm yammering amongst hobbyists, nothing wrong with that. I'm not in contact with Universal or Dutch anymore.
2.) I have friends with full pre-payments in on this game & I'm concerned for them. I want them to get refunds or games.
Quoted from Rensh:This is one I didn’t see coming. Didn’t expect a claim from ÄRA anymore after such a long time
That’s incredibly naive. I’ve been saying for years that ARA was not going to just walk away. They've spent a lot of money on this project, allegedly weren’t paid, and are sitting on 40-50 games for years, plus 100’s of games worth of parts.
DP’s best option was always to take ARA’s 51/49 deal. That was the only way these were gonna get finished. They let ego get in the way of a tough but rational business decision. Starting from scratch was always another money pit & putting their head in the sand about ARA was never going to end well.
Quoted from bounoun:Wouw, horrible news.
I wonder how long this will delay the production, months if not years?
Delay? You chalk this up to a DELAY!?
It's over.
Quoted from highdef:Hey eternallife -
You downvote anyone that posts something "negative" (but true) about DP, yet you never voice your opinion on why you disagree.
Do you know something we don't know? If so, stop hiding in the shadows and tell us your thoughts on this mess so that we can better understand your optimistic viewpoint.
When do YOU expect to see resolution and/or games back on the assembly line?
Should EAs just sit back and wait another few years for this to work itself out?
He's the last sycophant standing. Even Rensh isn't taking DP's side on this one.
Quoted from highdef:I KNEW he'd downvote you for that.
What a troll/puss!
He downvotes everything I post. He used to engage, but just downvotes now. I used to do that too...it’s easier than replying to people you don’t like....but at that point I just started putting people on ignore if I didn’t want to read their posts or engage with them. Poof. Gone. Life is better.
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