Got my preorder in with Nitro since Cointaker is out and no other US distributor has alottment. Confirmed no issues or import fees, etc by going through Nitro. Gonna be a bit - sounds like Q2 of 2017 but that gives me time to enjoy my Metallica a bit longer before I have to sell it to offset the cost of TBL. Super pumped about getting this game though!! All the footage thus far and feedback is very promising!

I'm in on a deposit at the moment but would really love some more open communication. I love everything I've seen and want the game very much but i don't know if it's shipping this quarter or this year....

In the meantime, can anyone with the new code update post video of some of the new car mode features?

Does this mean that if you have your order through Nitro you will get yours before anyone in the cointaker list? Assuming 60+\- have shipped and cointaker has #200-300, that must mean Nitro has #100-199 (obviously not factoring in any other European or Asian alottments...).

For those of you already in deep and paid in full, I can see why you'd be OK paying another $1000 on top to just get the game in your hands - particularly since all of you paid in full folks got it for $8500. As someone with a preorder deposit on this game but at the $10,000 current price tag - there is just no way I am going to further extend and now have to pay $11,000 for this thing. If that is the direction this is going I am going to walk away and get my refund...I hate to say that as I absolutely love this project but paying another $1000 over and above the already super high (but agreed upon) price is just not something anyone should really be comfortable with. Its bordering on extortion - especially for you paid in full guys.

On that note - I am assuming the only real reason I am paying $10,000 vs the early buyers paying $8500 is simply the markup that the distributor is taking? OR is DP actually jacking up the price per unit?

As much as I hate to say it, I just pulled the plug on my preorder to get my $ back. I am not willing to wait this out for an indefinite amount of time nor am I willing to pay more than already agreed upon to settle a manufacturing dispute. I hope this gets resolved and I would still love to have one but not under these circumstances. If and when this game comes back to life and can be ordered - with confirmed ship dates available, I will gladly jump back in.

still no word from DP after this fiasco unfolded is pretty disheartening.....

So not a peep yet from DP on any of this or in response to the various statements made by ARA? Man I really want this game and have admittedly cancelled my order and got my refund. I hope for the best but suspect the worst here....

Given the blatant lies and obvious disconnect between ARA claims and DP claims, can we even trust any statement coming out of DP at TPF?

The only REAL solid info would be a combined statement by ARA and DP that both have signed off on and agreed to. Otherwise it just continues to be "he said she said"

Well as someone who had a preorder lined up and then cancelled it for a refund when the shit hit the fan, I just walked out of Alamo Drafthouse in SF after putting twenty some odd games on it and man I am over the moon impressed. Makes this whole thing that much more depressing and at least I got my money back. Holy hell I want this game more than ever. DP knocked it out of the park. I've watched streams many times but playing it firsthand just confirmed it for me. I guess now I wait till Texas and see what they say...

Meeting mustve happened by now - its after close of business overseas...

So its been another week since the last "update". Wonder if this is going to become a scheduled weekly update (doubtful). I think they should also be explaining in one of these updates about the departure of their sole software engineer and what that means to the completion of the code...doesn't seem like this is an issue that has anything to do with ARA and as such I think its fair to expect some transparency on it.

soooooo they are either agreeing to the hostile takeover or the whole thing goes dead in the water....lets hear that update! pretty straightforward situation it seems!

While "complete" is not necessarily the right word, the current code with the rug modes is a pretty solid, fun game that I would never get sick of. If the code never goes beyond this - it's still better than a lot of sterns, or other machines.

<<slow clap>>

This post is dead on. How every other fully bought in "early achiever" does not share the same sentiment is beyond my comprehension. Why cant everyone see how plainly obviously this is a disaster?? Have we all not seen this enough? Has enough time not passed? This Stockholm syndrome-like loyalty to a company that has done nothing but lie or stretch the truth and has no logical plan moving forward and no transparency is ludicrous.

What's now almost equally fascinating is the market - directly below this thread are 3 ads - 2 for "in-hand" TBL machines at 18k and 25k (nib) and a spot for sale for 8500obo. What really and truly is the market for this? On one hand it is a great game! Super rare, dream theme for many, etc. on the other hand what is a paid spot worth? It's essentially a huge gamble and nothing else. Id LOVE to have this machine but no way in hell am I paying 18k-25k....Is a spot even really worth 8500 for the gamble? I'd say maybe closer to half that...assuming ALL the risk for what appears like an ever-worsening scenario should compel a steep discount, maybe even more than half. In fact every day this goes on the value of a paid spot further deminishes. Does that mean the value of a machine in hand goes up? I just don't know.

so what the hell happens with the completed games packed in boxes at ARA? What happens to all the parts sitting at ARA? All those go to the landfill? This new vendor starts from scratch and has to tool up for every unique part? Reproduction for all parts has to start over at zero? Given the circumstances, it seems impossible that ARA will turn over the large inventory of parts on hand much less the games in box...

so 4 weeks for the new guy to work up his quote, another 4 weeks of negotiation - assuming that goes well, then what...8 months plus for ramping up, procuring off-the-shelf parts, tooling up to fabricate custom parts, then another several months of production to actually build games, test games, etc? Best case scenario its another 18 months before a game ships...and that's assuming there is money somewhere to actually make any of this happen.

Going the route of a new CM seems like a terrible idea - not to mention a very costly one...call me crazy but this sounds like a DP bluff to push ARA in negotiations....none of this makes any sense...starting over is going to cost a fortune no matter how good of a quote they get from the new manufacturer.

It does seem utterly rediculous to try to team with ANOTHER CM who has no background or experience in pinball. That's probably why ARA screwed up their bid so bad on this project and are now demanding more money - they had no idea what it takes to make a pinball machine....and whomever this new guy is will have again....NO relevant experience with pinball...what's that old saying about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result??

Had any existing TBL changed hands since delivery to the original owner? Does anyone believe that these games listed at 18k-25k are actual market value? At what point does the market correct itself? At the conclusion of the ARA drama? Either there are never going to be any other games built or there will be another 250+\- built and in the market - then what is the price? Best case all buyers get their games for 8500-10k NIB and then what? Prices instantly double? I just don't get the logic of the buyers looking to double their money but the fact that no one is biting proves my point I guess. That said - anyone with a game in hand that wants to sell for for 10k please PM me.

ok so just shy of $12000 USD....that sounds a bit more reasonable and realistic....these 18k-25k for sale adds are super crazy in a speculative market like this....at least with Magic Girl those guys know what they are getting...1 of 21(ish) and no chance for any more machines, etc....with Lebowski its way too big a gamble to pay insane prices...$11k-12k though....I might be on board there...anyone have one and want to talk about that price range please PM me.

on the flip side, an owner today could take my 11k now....or if things work out and all games get shipped and the market is softer since 300+ are on the market than they can only sell for 9k(ish)...so taking my 11k(ish) now is the right move....this is why the whole thing is such a dumb gamble with the current DP situation. with any other RARE high end pin all of the details are known...Magic Girl, Big Bang Bar, KingPin...whatever...theres no more risk of circumstantial changes...what is...is.....with TBL, it could all change at a moments notice which is why the crazy sales price marketplace ads are stupid...and people trying to sell a "spot" in line for a prepaid achiever is a big risk...I mean really, how much money are any one of us willing to just flush down a toilet for a gamble....an 8.5k paid in full achiever spot at this moment is in my opinion worth about $2500 cash. circumstances look TERRIBLE...all signs point to total loss. if this all works out miraculously then ok, you've got a game worth 8500+...if it stays the course...its worth ZERO. the paid in full spots are not worth anywhere near the actual paid value at this point given what we all know...but I guess it could change Monday...if DP are actually honest and forthcoming...

Are they confident that this new CM is going to come back with a bid for the project that fits within their current financial metrics??

The problem I see here on top of initial start-up logistics, tooling and timing is the fact that the original deal with ARA was made what...3+ years ago? In that time inflation has occurred, material costs / shipping costs have escalated, exchange rates have shifted.

It is without question that the price per unit will indefinitely go up compared to the initial deal they made with ARA....so aren't we back to square one? No matter how this plays out DP is going to be paying more per unit for manufacturing than their initial business plan allowed.

How does that get reconciled?

The only way to cut costs is to cut scope...in this case it would require cheaper materials, how else are you going to cut $$$ out of a project that is so hands-on labor intensive? Are we looking at cheaper cabinets? translite in lieu of glass, cheaper speakers, cheaper PC's, stripped out features? Something has got to give to make this work.

If this is legit, the $16k TBL just lost some value. I feel real bad for the sucker who supposedly paid 25k - assuming this is going to come to fruition. Too early to tell but at this point buying or selling one is a pretty big gamble...

When does the price of TBL in hand start crashing down to earth? If DP actually succeeds and gets new games flowIng out the door at the 10k price point that immediately puts to rest the 14k-16k asking prices on original games right? Particularly when the new games have been improved across the board if one is to believe all the feedback from DP thus far. The handful of originals are destined to fall to about 8k i would guess, right?

I would love a TBL! I had a deposit on one through Nitro before this thing went totally off the rails. In my opinion its a fantastic game and probably the best game on the planet that no one can have (besides the lucky first 50+/-). That said there is no way the current asking price on those originals DOESNT drop like a rock if the new version gets off the ground and are available in unlimited quantities. There is not going to be anyone willing to pay the same price, much less a premium price for an older, non-supported version of the game. They all amount to basically prototypes. Can the old ones be converted to the new ones? That's an important question. What happens when your main board dies? Are you out of luck or can the entire thing be converted to match the new Chinese model? If so, who pays for that? I would be very scared to own one of the originals at this point not only since the value is going to plummet (unless of course you are an original owner who only had to pay $8500 - youll always be ok value-wise from that perspective) but from a reliability and longevity standpoint, anything specific about the ARA version that is being upgraded, modified or otherwise changed becomes very difficult to foresee a logical path to repair. Maybe DP will send out all new playfields to original customers? We have seen lots of reports of problems with the boards...bad USB ports triggering issues, the one at Sunshine Laundromat in NYC has been down for months from what I hear with no way to fix it. If anything goes wrong on your original youll likely be in the same boat unless its something simple or standard like a coil or wiring issue. Anything with the boards - huge problem.

Every buyer who can buy the Chinese one for 10k and have one that's NIB, fully supported from a warranty and parts perspective is going to take that option over an original unless they were really hard up for the novelty aspect of owning one of the long lost ARA versions. Can anyone explain any other reason that anyone would want an original at the same or higher price than a NIB, improved version?

Yes - now. at this moment. totally agree. However the whole goal of all this optimism in this thread and the work DP is apparently doing will result in that figment of imagination becoming a reality. It wont have to, as you say, "flood the globe" all it has to do is become real, become available to purchase and legitimately ship to anyone who wants one. That might be 100 people that might be 1000, numbers and geography are irrelevant. The point of my question is what happens when/if the Chinese remake becomes a reality? Anyone who thinks the handful of originals don't take a dip are fooling themselves.

Thanks for "taking it easy on me" since I'm a newbie apparently. I am fully aware of and familiar with P-ROC thank you. I understand you have a TBL so this train of thought is upsetting to you so lets get specific since you cant grasp the conversation at a higher level and resort to insults and so forth. Here's a specific example. Main Street Amusements TBL went down and sat dormant for many weeks...why? They couldn't figure it out, DP tech support was useless. Then they figured out it was a bad USB socket and had to replace it - game is back in business. This is all well documented on "this flippin podcast" about a year ago". So an end-user needed to do soldering work on a board and self-diagnose the issue. Thankfully those guys obviously know their shit and can handle such repairs. I expect to have to troubleshoot and repair machines myself each time I buy one. I have the tools and resources to do so. But if I'm buying a brand new game? Unacceptable. On a brand new game failures of that nature are inexcusable and should be taken care of immediately by the manufacturer/distributor...not end users...see Stern's node board replacement program for an example of that playing out the right way in reality...this isn't rocket science.

End users of brand new highly complex games, I don't care if the format is some open source format like P-ROC, should NOT have to deal with problems and repairs like that on their own. Period. Others then reported here on Pinside similar issues any symptoms. It's all out there if you take a look.

As far as Sunshine is concerned a local guy in the pinball community here was up there within the last 2 weeks and apparently spoke to the owner or at least one of the staff and got that feedback as to why and how long TBL has been down. Sure, that's second (third?) hand info but if its false then let Sunshine Laundromat come in here and explain in more detail.

And the playfield comment - I guess sarcasm is lost on you...again I get this is touchy as an owner but lets try to keep it real. If your big main board loses function in any way - then what? Do you expect DP to stock replacements of defunct and discontinued boards to replace yours? OR are you expecting them to have some sort of retrofit kit available to take that board out and replace it with the new series of smaller boards? What sort of holistic wiring changes might be involved in that? Likely a few...I don't know for sure but I doubt this is all "plug and play" replacements.

Relax man, it could be worse, you could own a Magic Girl that will plummet in value if Deep Root gets off the ground and delivers their "Cadillac machine for Kia prices"

I am still waiting for anyone to explain the position of how they would argue their ARA TBL is worth $15k when and if this Chinese model does become reality. The "collectors" looking to spend top dollar just for exclusivity on an outdated version are harder and harder to find....anyone see AFM and MB prices lately? Hell MBr isn't even "official" and they are selling like hotcakes well under 10k now...

You already know....

"we are hard at work!......lots of progress!.....we are "ramping up" to production!....parts have long lead times....taking longer than expected.....additional delays....we will provide more details as soon as we can....there is another enormous European holiday coming up so we will be off for several weeks...

Have you not seen the movie? It’s a direct quote.

This is just getting embarrassing...now a go fund me? Embarrasing...who are these seven people willing to go deeper in the hole here? Wow....i guess it’s true...a fool and his money are soon parted.

Handing these clowns money to “fight” a legal battle when we have no exposure to exactly what the details of the case are is just asinine. It could be (and likely is) an unwinnable case.

Go fund me....unbelievable.

It’s called double entendre

Here is an explaination. He absolutely says “bar”. What he means by it can be seen in multiple ways. Either way DP didn’t quite grasp it...

https://www.quora.com/The-Big-Lebowski-1998-movie-What-does-the-quote-Sometimes-you-eat-the-bar-and-sometimes-the-bar-eats-you-mean

Will anyone admit to being in the “Seattle Seven” and explain the logic? There’s no doubt most of all of them are on pinside and likely read and post in this thread...

https://www.gofundme.com/seattle-seven

Well there’s this....

Only a half million euros? Well at least we know roughly how bad the financial picture is.

Does anyone else think this is DP themselves setting this up? So the whole go fund me is basically just a raffle to raise half a million euros. Ok, got it.

So $583,634 US dollars. That’s 68 early achiever machines right there at 8500. The magnitude of how much money must have been squandered is wild. But imagine how many games would have to be sold at $10k to cover those costs and scrape up enough to cover cost to build the hundred plus machines for early achievers who got screwed. The math just doesn’t add up...lawsuit or not, how do they build and sell enough games to hope to be able to supply games to early achievers? And at what price? They would have to nearly double the price but no one would pay those prices for a game when the exclusivity is gone. The 20k price now is driven by scarcity. These things go back into production in earnest and that value plummets as well as the prospective price ceiling for the new production games. Can anyone describe a truly viable path forward short of an angel investor who doesn’t care if he just throws money away with no return just for the love of the game?

100% agree - whether you like their games or not, their business model was and is spot on. Slow and steady wins the race. And they have been nimble and adaptable...taking on contract work like Dominos, the super success that is TNA and the relationship with Scott Danisi. It’s not rocket science! How many ostentatious parties did spooky throw?

Agreed. The slapsticky attempt at humor is frankly an insult to those effected by this scandal. If they want any chance of getting anywhere near their goal, there is only one way. Full transparency, all cards in the table, all books exposed, every detail out there. This is all just more of the same laughable nonsense. The people in the hobby in positions to buy this game are not idiots or bumbling clowns laughing at these poor attempts at jokes. Lay out a business case. How does half million euros solve the problem? What’s the result? What assurances are in place?

I think we already know the answers to all of these though which is exactly what is predicating the secretive jokey foolishness presently laid before us.

Jesus Christ!!! These European holidays are absolutely absurd!!! No one can be bothered to work until August 29th due to “holiday”? It’s July 24th for the love of all things holy! How does anything get done over there?

Is there any real update Since the EAs went underground? Any more newsletters?

Post the update here, it’s not like it’s somehow confidential or under an NDA

So basically...

"first meeting went absolutely nowhere. We are at an impasse but our attorneys convinced us to meet again and see if anything changes. They are going to spend the next 2-3 weeks milking us, attending high dollar lunches together on our dime laughing all the way through before setting a subsequent meeting date for us to again express how our feelings are hurt and probably get absolutely nowhere since we have no means to cough up anything to the table toward a meaningful mutual resolution to the issues."

Have the lawyers gone out for their lunch again yet after meeting once with no outcome other than agreeing to meet again?

So so sad. I have said it before and ill say it again, this is one of the best games every designed and built and easily among top 3 of the last 10 years. I am an immediate buyer if this ever becomes real again but most certainly not at the unobtainium collector prices now (20k+) If the game was a shit show like some of the other games that have crashed and burned, this wouldnt hurt so much but being that its such a fantastic game just makes this more painful and frustrating for all. All the stars were aligned....except for actual business and fiscal management. And all of the lies along the way sure didnt help credibility...I look forward to a day when this actually comes back alive but i have absolutely no faith that it will.

But therein lies the problem.

There are 2 parties financially exposed right now on this deal and 1 party is GREATLY more exposed than the other and only one of whom is actually attempting to pursue the debtor legally at this point in time.

Party 1 is the individual buyer who is exposed to the tune of $8000 each and sitting on their hands with hopes and prayers of a future for this game. Party 2 is ARA who heavily invested in time, resources and materials to build many machines and have yet to be paid. They are likely exposed well into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. The current legal proceedings are between ARA and DP. ARA is owed a ton of money and likely has a slam dunk open and shut case. Howver DP has no money so the only resolution to the inevitable judgement against DP is to liquidate the existing boxed up games with all proceeds going to ARA.

Giving those games to the "rightful owners" does nothing to solve the actual case at hand. Until the Early Acheivers step up and go after DP themselves, they have nothing to gain and stand no chance (ok, maybe a tiny chance?) of a positive outcome on this situation unless somehow miraculously whatever deal can be reached between ARA and DP allows for production to start up again, albeit very unlikely.

Early Achievers are collateral damage in this situation.

Aren’t the court records public records? If the case was heard and concluded where are the records?

Perhaps the greatest feat of DP at this point is to have totally screwed hundreds of people out of thousands of dollars and somehow convince then hope is still alive and its in their best interest NOT to join forces and sue. Why do the beleivers actually beleive this project is somehow still alive? What scenario has been made up in your minds or by the clowns at DP that convinces you that there is hope? Particularly when they have proven to be liars along the way and ANYTHING but transparent.

lawsuit update soon? whats the scoop? When can Spooky or Chicago Gaming jump in and take over production here in the US and start pumping these things out for a reasonable price? If they were smart they would be teeing this up now...

Wow, who knew the Dutch Legal system has all the sophistication and wherewithal of a parent trying to calm down two squabbling toddlers. How much longer are people going to pretend this isn’t over? Dutch Pinball may simply need to be taken down by force if the won’t admit it themselves and won’t share ANY facts. If they were in the USA the savvy pinside members would have already found a way to unearth records and details to expose this charade and take it down. It’s like somehow they have a smokescreen or level of protection by existing where they do. Clearly there legal system is incapable of efficient process, critical thinking or decisiveness. How have they convinced all of the people screwed over that there is actually a way out and not to join and pursue legal action? The continuation of this nonsense is about as much the fault of the victimized customers as it it DP themselves at this point.

No one HAS to face the EA's. The EA's cant even be inspired to stand up for themselves and FACE DP with a lawsuit to clear this ridiculous log-jam of lies, delays and avoidance by DP.

If this thing ever gets settled between ARA and DP, guess what...the EA's are merely collateral damage and get nothing. Until they stand up for whats right and what's theirs, they are not even involved in the discussion. DP has somehow masterfully continued to string them along and kept them huddled around a dim candle of hope. If someone actually exposed the facts I suspect the EA's would not remain so docile and patient...with Zidware, Skit-B, Heighway, all the truth came out and the Band-Aid was ripped off...its long overdue for that to happen here.

Where are the internet sleuths who exposed Heighway, Zidware and the rest?

Totally understand that but lets be honest here - DP has broke the law. They have taken your money and many others and squandered it and not delivered the product you are contractually owed. There is no "grey area" here. Its pretty friggin clear. They have committed fraud. Period. They fraudulently obtained your money and you have a slam dunk case against them. Frankly the case of the EA's vs DP is even stronger and more slam dunk than whatever ARA's suit suggests!

I know nothing of the Dutch legal system but any legal system in any developed and civilized country must have a way to file a complaint without a major heavy lift or heavy expense. Filing a complaint (or whatever they call it in their system) would initiate a process and FORCE DP to have to start to come clean here. Why do you think ARA sued them? They had to force their hand. Is there not some method in their legal system where you can file a complaint and get a judge to issue a subpoena for documents and/or in person appearance? To simply get that far can't be that much an expense. Especially when hundreds of thousands of dollars have been STOLEN. This is so black and white in terms of the EA's being victimized here there should be absolutely no objection.

Ok so enlighten us. It might help to get other points of view and bring in other resources to the cause but go ahead and enlighten us. How is it not that simple? They purported to have a product ready for manufacture and delivery and accepted payments from hundreds of folks in full for said product. They engaged in a written legally binding contract with you to provide that product at a date in the future from time of payment in lieu of providing the product on the spot. They - for a variety of circumstances that really don't matter in the end - have not provided you the product nor have they provided a refund. Lets look at the textbook definition of Fraud.

"wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain."

They may chose to argue that this wasn't deception but that is a very weak position... the facts show how they repeatedly erroneously spent money, LIED TO YOUR FACE REPEATEDLY TO HIDE FACTS, and ultimately didn't even pay their vendors. it seems your case is far stronger than theirs...

i hope you are right. there is a shit ton of money left on the table for anyone who can unravel this mess and get it going. The game is 100% done as far as R+D/mechanics/testing?etc.. The code is already a blast and some minor polish would go a long way. DP shit the bed in a colossal way and seemingly have no positive way out. Sadly there are virtually no scenarios where the EA's get taken care of here short of a Deeproot-style "olive branch" but for anyone still interested in buying this game, any company with manufacturing capacity (I'm looking at you spooky, american pinball, deeproot) who is willing to work through all the red tape of the license and unraveling the ARA dispute could easily start back up production on these at 10k-12k and sell them like hotcakes. Again - this in all likelihood means the EA's get absolutely nothing unless the "angel manufacturer" was to offer something.

I had a deposit with Nitro for awhile and remain a day-one buyer if this gets back of the ground.

Holy shit if this is real this is an amazing and unexpected news item! I’m day one buyer if i can get from a distributor in box!

And the price can finally come back down to reality. Maybe this explains the recent listing of several for sale...if true no one is getting over 10k for their original run games since NIB from distributors is 10k...

I would imagine those have to go to the rest of the early achievers. Unless they need to sell those to new buyers to raise funds to make more...but if this is true they will sell a ton. I am sending my deposit back to nitro tomorrow!

Until there is an official statement from DP and or ARA, this is all speculation, we all know Renesh is connected to those guys personally and has covered for them and lied (or at least misdirected) on their behalf before over the years...

Frankly it’s been years since there has been any real open honest communication about this game from any party involved or on the peripheral.

Good question...can anyone actually confirm this went to court? I mean we are dealing with proven liars...nothing is out of the realm of possibility

Are we ready to admit this is as dead and illegitimate as Andrew Heighway and Skit-B? The only difference here is the victims have yet to legally pursue a rightful judgment against these guys. Why are they allowed to remain silent as though there is any hope? Why is there no rationalization of the obvious demise of this project? How much longer are victims willing to wait? And what happens at that point in time?

The 1k$ deposits with nitro and cointaker ARE fully refundable.

These transactions now showing up are for paid in full spots. A year ago EAs were floating their spots for sale for $4k - $5k. Now that the whole project is even more dead than ever, the spots are trading hands for $1k

Wrong.

Even if DP "wins" the lawsuit, they have not paid ARA ANYTHING...or at least nothing near what they owe. They have squandered all the money. So this lawsuit about the cost escalation from initial contract with ARA to the disputed cost per unit is sort of irrelevant when DP has no money to even pay the originally agreed upon price. They wasted whatever they had left exploring some hair-brained idea of a Chinese company building the games.

If ARA wins, they will absolutely NOT release them to the EA's. They will either be sold off or destroyed (if licensing requires it). ARA owes the EA's nothing. ARA has their own money tied up in those assets and thus ARA (unless obligated to destroy them) can sell them off to new buyers.

Every solution to this mess that gets buyers their games requires DP to cough up a boat load of money...of which we know DP has none.

It's interesting in some ways that DP has not found an investor or something. They now have proof (via pinside and elsewhere) that the machines they designed CAN sell for significantly more than the $8500 original price. Why not convince an angel investor to pay off their debts to ARA to free up this insane log-jam and them start over manufacturing them in China or the US and selling them for $12,500. They would still sell like hot-cakes and at a massive premium over build cost at that point which would hopefully help make a business case to an investor.

The lawsuit was supposed to have an update weeks ago but we have not heard a thing.

Speaking of which, is there not public record in their Country? How is this all still under lock and key? Its not like it was some confidential arbitration hearing...

Why not different twist on this “EA buyout program” instead of $1000+ for a spot, how about $500 cash now buys first right of refusal on the spot at the original $8500 full price cost. If the games actually come out, the buyer can decide to pay the original EA the additional $8000 and get the game or pass and lose the $500 and the EA gets their game. By taking the non-refundable $500 the EA gives up the right to take the game but would get their full investment back. Essentially just selling the game for face value...

As others have said, this only works if ARA is paid off first... How does Barry get several hundred thousand dollars to make that happen? Credit is likely destroyed by this mess. Angel investor? selling BOP 3.0 for a couple years? The profit per game to close out the debt they owe would have to be substantial. If not it will take years to payoff the ARA debt.

DP is not getting $500k out of this sale.

Who is paying for shipping these machines? If they are really going to be here in 5-7 days after the paperwork is done, thats air freight, a ship takes WEEKS to get here and get through customs, etc. That airfreight for 40 boxes that each weigh 300lbs and take up 10 sf on a plane is going to be expensive.

That doesnt include shipping direct to your door...thats another 300-500 per unit.

Also, CT and Nitro are absolutely getting a cut here, they arent doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. The distro markup is probably at least 10%.

DP/ARA are probably getting closer to 8500-9000 per unit and the other funds are absorbed to markup and shipping and logistics.

The biggest question here that has zero clarity is who the hell builds these other hypothetical 100 machines from parts? What factory and what set of tools and what humans? When was the last time Barry built a pinball machine personally by himself if ever? What is the cost to hire people and buy tools and equipment to actually build these and what do those realities do to the price, timing or likelihood that any game beyond the ARA games is ever made?

Does anyone actually see a mathematical way forward to fulfill the EA buyers who have been screwed? What is the ACTUAL cost to produce a game now and who is going to produce them? Even if the parts are "paid for", the labor to build, the tools to build, the space to build, palettes and boxes, none of that exists or is accounted for! And what about the shipping costs? just a direct pass-through to the buyers I suppose?

Surely they do not have all parts on hand. And what about the cut that CT or nitro take? So lets play the game - if it costs $5000 to build one of these new machines with parts on hand for all the extra costs, they sell for $12,500, CT takes what, $2000? So they need to sell how many to start to build a war chest to actually pay out of pocket to build the EA games and send them out for free? Is that realistic at all???

There are DEFINATELY folks on this forum with all of the factors to be the "angel investor"

Cash on hand
love of pinball
love of the big Lebowski theme
understanding of business metrics and business viability

Why is no one jumping in?? Because there is no financial model that suggests its viable. It needs to be like the DeepRoot Jpop thing....the EA's are an anchor now to this project ever getting back off the ground. I mean that with no disrespect and I fully sympathize with the loss of $8500 to crooks who have now sold the same game twice...HOWEVER, its true, the EA's are a liability to any investor that wants to get in on this. Unless someone is willing to literally give away money to the EA's to get them to commit to not suing like Deep Root did, this is stuck in neutral...

This has been said many times before:

WHY are the EA's doing NOTHING about any of this? Their window of opportunity is continuing to close shut...frankly it may be already too late.

What is it about this bunch of people that differs from the poor souls on the JPOP/ZIDWARE or Kulek (predator) side that is precluding them from seeking legal action? Those victims teamed up, filed lawsuits and forced the issue.

The nature that this is overseas? What is it??

JPOP victims ended up getting something...either a shitty broken Magic Girl, free money from Deep Root or a free game from Deep Root. If EA's were to band together, things could happen....

But you CAN get something from nothing!! See the deep root / JPOP saga for proof. Those victims are getting something albeit indirectly. Forcing the issue with a lawsuit cements that any angel investor has to address the victims of this fraud. If the EA’s do nothing then an investor could come in and just move forward without addressing that issue.

This constant vacation is dispicable. How do people in the middle of something so damnjng and controversial find the peace of mind to take a god damn vacation...for three weeks!?! Unbelievable. This is the the second or third time some layer of this saga happen to fall on the ludicrous Dutch holiday season.

Which code is on the boxed machines? The code that was on machines released and boxed back then is likely not the most current. I don’t have dates in front of me but there was a Pretty sizable code release that included the car modes and other things that are likely not included in the code on these games that have been sitting in limbo. Is that code update still available??

If I was an EA I would welcome a conclusion where I get shipped a box of all the parts required to build my own game minus the cabinet. If that’s a viable path, it’s better than nothing, right? The most sickening thing here is these guys are never going to be made to actually account for this fraud and are seemingly masters of deception that have created a Stockholm syndrome type effect with the EAs where they are not taking action in spite of a pretty straightforward, arguable in court, fraud. Do other criminals get this insane benefit of the doubt? (Just keep hanging on, investors!! We SWEAR this will all work out in the end and we have a plan!! Look this obvious ponzi sale of your machines will actually HELP you...trust us!!). If it’s wasnt a niche hobby and a highly sought after item, would the reactions and tolerance be the same? If this was a dishwasher company and you prepaid for an amazing new state of the art dishwasher and then this bullshit happened, would the reaction (and inaction) be the same? How much of the EA lack of response is tied to emotional investment in this product?

but its not "sinking the ship your on".....anyone with a brain and a basic calculator can see the ship is already sunk. Legal action can force further resolution. this inaction is just a sad resignation and a false hope. Again - the Zidware ship had sunk...now look....all of those people are getting cash or free games from Deeproot. It doesn't hurt to TRY!! so what gives? again I say, what is this sad Stockholm syndrome like behavior that leaves blind faith in the hand of known liars, cheats and criminals?? If watching YOUR game get sold off to someone else at a premium price doesn't call you to action or inspire some sort of engagement...nothing will....its a really interesting study on human psychology really. very very hard to explain rationally what is going on here. Some people are OVERJOYED at the moment unboxing new games and boasting to the world, others are deeper and deeper in the hole but seemingly unwilling or uninspired to do anything about it.

This is 100% correct and where DP sank their own ship. This was a horrible decision on their part not to proceed with renegotiating with ARA and asking the EA's to cover the cost. I don't know if it was ego or just lack of intelligence or what.....but that was the decision they completely bungled.

Somebody post the newsletter please

Ok, so the deal was not court mandated. This is not much of a revalation, assuming you are still beleiving all of the information Barry shares, because the last NSNL suggested that the courts had indeed NOT reached an agreement and told ARA / DP to "work it out" or something along those lines. SO...this deal, literally done in secret and in the middle of the night (USA time - where most buyers are and secured their games in the middle of the night) completely screwed the EA's without any remorse or consequence.

The other comment about freinds and family. What is that telling us? The (40x$12,500) was not the only monies paid to ARA

It was of course 40x$12,500 MINUS commission to CT MINUS shipping and any other logistical costs and taxes PLUS either a loan or donation from "freinds and family".

If it was a loan or a series of loans? holy hell this just got way more complicated. If it was donations?? does anyone think there were donations??? I'll leave that alone for now.

Ok so the last batch is shipping next week. Sounds good. The second phase of "operation screw the EA's" is near complete.

Boy oh boy, it sure is complicated and time consuming to move and catalog all those parts! guess what folks, its going be another 3 months minimum of no communication and no progress. The proverbial can gets kicked down the road another mile when this should have just gone to bankruptcy already.

Prepping things for production ehh?? new facility selection, binned and inventoried parts, tooling...wow that all sounds fantastic....and WHO the hell is paying for that? WHO the hell is providing all this labor? Is that coming out of the loan / donation from freinds and family???? And its so comforting that there are a couple of production facilities in mind.....seriously...WTF has his guy been doing for the last 6-12 months. All of this could have been arranged and decided months ago!

are we seeing the trend yet? delay....false hope....delay....keep waiting...keep hoping....delay....dont worry I got this!!....delay...false hope...rinse...repeat

The licensing renewal? That was probably secured to facilitate the sale of the 40 games in limbo. Lord knows he couldnt risk a licensing issue when selling these games to CT. Perhaps CT insisted on clarification that license was still intact....I would have if I were them. CT doesnt want to get caught up in a lawsuit with FOX for selling unlicensed product...

At the rate this has gone does anyone think anything else other than further false hope and misleading information will come out of this mess by 12/31/2020???

Right!! and Spooky has a full time staff, multiple build stations and a fully baked facility with all of the organization and workflow sorted out....Barry has a storage unit full of random boxed parts.

Spooky - with the resources and experience and staff is doing about what....30 games a month?

Anyone heard Barry’s interview yet!? He’s personally building games and needs to sell 500 @ $12.5k before starting to make the EA’s whole!?

This lunacy just gets better all the time.

So I am guessing Cointaker already has a list going for these hypothetical next set 400-500 of games. Does anyone know how long that list currently is? What sort of deposit (if any) is required?

Very Few- as far as new pins are concerned the list is:

JJP Dialed In LE
JJP POTC LE
JJP Wonka LE
Stern Batman 66 Super LE

Some games have crested that mark that are not new but just rare including but not limited to:

Kingpin
Big Bang Bar
Cactus Canyon
King Kong

So how long is the CoinTaker list currently of people lined up ready to pay the $12.5k as these machines get made (assuming they actually get made)?

I have to imagine that CoinTaker is in constant contact with DP as the length of this "list" will serve as a barometer of actual interest and viability of continuing the business, yes?

If the list is 25 people long, this project is DOA. If the list is 500 people long, DP should be looking for contract manufacturer to do the work for them and expedite before people change their minds.

I heard that too. I cant believe anyone would have backed out considering they can easily sell at a HUGE margin. It is a zero-risk / huge reward situation for those who can stomach the bad press of being a flipper on the machine under the circumstances. You cant get that kind of return with zero risk anywhere else!

So there are 67 weeks between now and the end of 2020. We know the Dutch take an exorbitant amount of vacation so let’s say 60 weeks. He’s got parts to make 200 games supposedly. That’s 3.3 games per week starting next week to meet the goal. That number per week obviously goes up every week. It’s taken Spooky 5 years to ramp up to 10-15 per week.

Can someone explain a viable path forward? Seriously. Not even talking about money. Just simple logistics.

How long is the coin taker list now for new games as they get built (if they get built)?

Seems strange they won’t share where people’s spots are on the list. What is the motivation? More secrecy is not what this quagmire needs.

You all recall on Kaneda when he spoke to the big Lebowski flipper, he was a late add to the list and snagged one of the 40 due to others backing out in front of him.

The “private thread” should be closed and open to public to read. The private thread for EAs is completely irrelevant and frankly at this point counter productive. Considering the EA’s ONLY hope now is new money and new buyers, and they refuse to join together and sue, there is no good that comes from any of their “private” conversations.

If EAs want their games to ever materialize and are unwilling to force the issue against this fraud through the legal system then they are at the mercy of new buyers and new money, period.

If you want to make new buyers with new money comfortable with the prospect of handing over $12.5k in a situation that has been littered with lies and deception and intentional misdirection or no information at all for years, the way to do that would obviously be transparency and honesty.

I private thread is completely counter to that reality. Pretty simple.

If there are “facts” and photos that show more positivity in this situation, it is MEANINGLESS to the EAs to have that information since they are sitting on their hands doing nothing. The new buyers need to see and hear that information. Or the new buyers are far less likely to materialize..pretty simple.

Let me clarify, this is coming from someone who had a deposit years ago and cancelled when this all went downhill. This is also coming from someone who is 100% still interested in buying one of these games for my collection but only with a timeline and communication and assurances of some reality to this situation.

That is a fair statement but you failed to address the reality that I pointed out. You need me (and many others) to want and to buy this game ahead of you. Why would it help your cause to hide facts from me and other interested parties at this point??

Honestly the only people who benefit from information not being public are the people flipping games for 18k-20k... if there are facts that suggest the runway is clear and this is going to pick up steam then the current market premium over the purchase price evaporates.

Nearly another month gone and no additional games out the door, no additional updates, no additional clarity, no communication....what's going on?

To who? Where? Where is the list? Who is facilitating the sales? European direct sale or overseas thru cointaker?

does anyone have any actual proof of these new 10 games? All of this is apparently happening under some ridiculous cloak of secrecy.

If I want to sell a bunch of products to an enthusiastic but skeptical audience ( due to my own missteps) I would be OVER communicative in every conceivable way....this is just more nonsense.

Show proof of production
Show proof of a facility
Show proof of a production staff (if there is one...)
Show proof of new owners receiving games
Show progress of the business model in action

Anything? Anything???

It is far MORE important to release an update to the NON-EA general pinball buying pubic considering that the only path forward for this company and this game is NEW money from NEW buyers...an update to EA's is pointless as unless they are willing to cough up another $12.5k to get in line for a game now, they still have very little chance of ever getting the game.

This whole strategy is so ass-backwards...

Don't get me wrong, I am glad to see that photo but seriously....get a clue!! Barry needs new buyers, like me, to gain confidence and understanding in this whole thing, not continue to blow smoke up the EA's asses..

Great question....at $8500 it was a slam dunk. then it was $10000 and there I think was the sweet spot. Now that its $12500, its at a ultra high end collector edition price but is a mass produced inaugural game from an unproven company with no (obvious) business plan moving forward...

And what are the new code features?

At $12.5k for a rare novelty, sure that makes sense. As a run of 500 it starts to lose a little luster at that price. The business model should support mass production at a lower price if they can actually pull off a viable business model. Agreed a low price option with no bowling alley (back at 8500 perhaps?) becomes compelling.

Was this the Kaneda game? Hadn’t seen any information in quite awhile of any new machines coming out of DP...

That pic is from ARA facilities 5 years ago if you keep reading that Facebook thread.

Why wouldn't Cointaker just be up front and transparent?

How long is the list currently?

How many orders have been fulfilled since the 40 "ARA Hostage Games" hit the market (I am only talking about NEW game delivery)?

What pace is DP delivering games per month at this point?

I have said it so many times it just makes no sense for DP (and now Cointaker) to be so secretive about whats going on?? IF DP were smart they would have a god damn 24 hour live webcam in the "factory" where people could watch their games getting built. If they want to get games sold, they need to validate what's actually going on.

so whats the answer? how far back are you and how long currently is the queue?

how many people on this thread are currently invoiced or paid in full for their delivery? Seems like the backup is with DHL but I wonder how many boxed games DP is sitting on at the moment waiting for DHL - the whole 4 per month thing sounds more like this month could be a lot more than that? Any other EAs confirmed as part of this allotment? #53 and #54 perhaps?

There are at least 4 people in the last 2 pages of comments on this thread that are either invoiced or paid in full.

flipping one to balance the cost on the one you keep? you wouldn't dare put one of these on location would ya?!

buy 2 at $25k total, sell one for $16k, end up with a $9k TBL for the win!

Literally one post above you is a guy with two machines paid in full and likely to flip one and keep one. Make him an offer and you’ll probably have a game in a week or two!