shit, phone call? id be happy if he just responded to an email every now and again

Does anyone know why this isnt the case? It would seem from just a logical standpoint that if they got/get a new CM the first games they would make are the games owed and not a new set of games. There may be some logical reason as to why they wouldnt make TBL and instead theyre making BoP 3.0 but i guess im just not getting it. I gotta say, ive tried to be supportive and understanding through this whole process but this is the type of money people get murdered over

At this point maybe the remaining 250 TBL buyers need to think about ponying up some money for legal counsel and starting a class action ala magic girl. If i remember correctly there were about 20 of them and it cost them about 8k a piece or so (if any of the MG guys are in myabe they could chime in) Seems like a lot, but i believe hiring lawyers is what finally got them their game. If theyre unwilling to make our game, and unwilling to give refunds, i dont see another solution. Waiting for some indeterminate amount of time while being force to pay in full for a item that may or may not come, while simultaniously being told its not currently being worked and no refunds on isnt really a viable solution

This makes a lot of sense, didnt think of that, thank you for clarifying

I'll trade you for 161 ;-p

The more I think about everything that transpired today, the more mad i get. When all of this ARA stuff was uncovered, Jaap and Barry said "trust us." Well I dont trust DP anymore after this announcement and if they refuse to refund me my money, was there ever any reason to "trust" them in the first place? I did trust them, the first time when i sent them over 8k, 3 years later the trust is gone. Theyve lied to us and only been transparent when they absolutely had to be. What reason after all this do we have to "trust" them any longer? How much more stuff is going on that we dont know about? Im going to call DLA Piper first thing monday morning and find out exactly what "early achiever" consumer rights are in Holland, and after that, if we are in a good place legally, it may be a good idea to have them send out a letter threatening legal action if we arent given an option of refunds.

I think we all need to take a role in being more aggressive if we ever hope to see our money, this is a good place to start. Ive already called my lawyer to figure out my options but havent heard back from him yet. Im guessing Universal wouldnt be happy if theyre greeted to 50-100 angry callers monday morning asking, "WHERES THE MONEY LEBOWSKI?" Maybe we should get more orgainized and starting getting vocal with the people DP does business with, turn this shit into a PR shit storm.

Tried to be cool about everything hoping that theyd [DP] have our best interest at heart, this announcement lets me know we are literally their last concern. That was a mistake, I shouldve probably been less cool about everything maybe if enough of us had we couldve avoided getting to this point. Youre right, more of us need to be clear that what DP is doing is illegal and theyre acting no different than Skit-B. Theyre literally holding our money hostage while telling us theyre not planning to make our product we paid for to have made, and that we dont get the money back until they decide to make it. I cant think of a 1st world country that this type of behavior is legal in.

you dont just get to make up arbitrary rules that violate the law. Im not sure about the Netherlands specifically but this is point 52 and 53 of the EU Consumer Rights Directive http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32011L0083&qid=1403274218893

52)
In the context of sales contracts, the delivery of goods can take place in various ways, either immediately or at a later date. If the parties have not agreed on a specific delivery date, the trader should deliver the goods as soon as possible, but in any event not later than 30 days from the day of the conclusion of the contract. The rules regarding late delivery should also take into account goods to be manufactured or acquired specially for the consumer which cannot be reused by the trader without considerable loss. Therefore, a rule which grants an additional reasonable period of time to the trader in certain circumstances should be provided for in this Directive. When the trader has failed to deliver the goods within the period of time agreed with the consumer, before the consumer can terminate the contract, the consumer should call upon the trader to make the delivery within a reasonable additional period of time and be entitled to terminate the contract if the trader fails to deliver the goods even within that additional period of time. However, this rule should not apply when the trader has refused to deliver the goods in an unequivocal statement. Neither should it apply in certain circumstances where the delivery period is essential such as, for example, in the case of a wedding dress which should be delivered before the wedding. Nor should it apply in circumstances where the consumer informs the trader that delivery on a specified date is essential. For this purpose, the consumer may use the trader’s contact details given in accordance with this Directive. In these specific cases, if the trader fails to deliver the goods on time, the consumer should be entitled to terminate the contract immediately after the expiry of the delivery period initially agreed. This Directive should be without prejudice to national provisions on the way the consumer should notify the trader of his will to terminate the contract.
(53)
In addition to the consumer’s right to terminate the contract where the trader has failed to fulfil his obligations to deliver the goods in accordance with this Directive, the consumer may, in accordance with the applicable national law, have recourse to other remedies, such as granting the trader an additional period of time for delivery, enforcing the performance of the contract, withholding payment, and seeking damages.

Just to be clear, the goal isnt to sue anyone. The goal is to be given the option for refunds, and to be given those refunds if we ask for them. I didnt have a sales contract with ARA, I had one with DP. Now, im asking to terminate that sales contract and be refunded my purchase price because of Dutch Pinballs inability to deliver their end of the contract. Its a basic consumer right and has nothing to do with ARA.

if everyone wants their money back from DP isnt that the exact problem? Why should we not be afforded our rights? What do i think will happen to their business? If their business strategy was to make $12,500 B list games that were 25 years old, i dont think me asking for my money back is going to be the thing that folds their business...
also at a time where people are frustrated and looking for solutions, coming in here and basically saying, "youre stupid for buying" isnt helpful constructive criticism it just makes you look like a dick. I always loved the pinball community because as a fringe group we always had a unique way of sticking by each other and helping each other. Over the years thats started to change, and its because of people allowing toxic behavior and statements to slide. Ive had pinheads help me in ways you wouldnt believe and it was one of the things that always drew me to the hobby. I dont know if insulting me makes you feel better about yourself but it certainly doesnt help the community in any way. It def doesnt make me feel good. What good does it do? Next time, instead of saying sorry preemptively, then saying something rude, maybe you could just forgo making the statement.

100 percent this, we need information guys. Right now the only real information weve gotten in the last 6-8 months about games was a statement about board problems which ended up being a lie. If someone had not contacted ARA we would likely STILL think this was all a board issue. I do see why people would be hesitant to communicate with VDL/Bally/Universal/ARA in fear of "fucking" something up. But we need to know the truth about whats going on and DP has proven time and time again that they will only be honest when their hand is forced. Philgate, licensegate, ARAgate, at some point we just have to accept that they have a pattern and history of dishonesty, all of which couldve been avoided had they been communicative and forthright. Will calling VDL solve anything? Maybe, maybe not...I for one, would like to know whos paying for this BoP 3.0. Is VDL funding it? If so, why didnt they fund TBL instead? It would be really helpful if every Lebowski owner who wanted a refund called these companies on monday to get some info, maybe with enough info we can piece together the truth. Should we class action? Should we wait? I dont know yet, Im trying to get us the information to make that determination. The point is with more information we can make the most informed decision possible as a community. If DP wont be forthcoming with the truth its up to us to fish it out where we can.

this very well may be the truth, I for one, would just feel better if someone other than jaap or barry was the one telling me this stuff. If its being worked out in court then ill call ARA tomorrow, they'll respond with, "we cant speak about that matter, its currently being worked out through the courts/arbritration" and ill have wasted like 5 minutes of my day but ill know its actually gone to court. I may call ARA and they may say, "all good faith communications have broken down and DP is not responding to us." I dont know what I expect to hear, I just havent had ARA lie to me directly yet so I have more of a reason to trust them than DP. The point is knowing more information cant possibly be a bad thing and if the truth is dire its best to know now as opposed to 6 months from now. Like I said before, if people hadnt called ARA frustrated about the lack of progress about their games wed all still be waiting for this "board issue" to get worked out.