Who the F is buying that stuff if they're not a TBL fan? Boggles my mind the stuff that shows up on eBay.

Wow. That's how you communicate. Long time coming, overdue frankly, but way to go guys, excellent responses.

You'd think. It's not nearly that simple though, trust me.

Nice attention to detail. I wouldn't expect anything less though, whatever drama happened I still believe this is an awesome game.

You should check out this awesome site called Pinside.

Seriously, do some searches here, everything you could possibly want to know has been discussed in depth.

For instance, just a search for tools:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/your-favorite-tool

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/complete-tool-kits

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinball-tools-parts-kit

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/what-is-in-your-tool-kit

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/post-up-your-ultimate-shopping-out-a-pin-tool

Tons of really valuable info in there for the taking.

The Zidware mess presumably.

If they have a couple of final machines at Expo that will be rad, really looking forward to seeing it. I don't regret dropping out, the price was just too high for me to justify, but I still think it's a bad ass machine.

Scott and I have both been really busy, we haven't chatted much lately, we're going to catch up at Expo. He sent me a prototype board, but I'm not sure it's quite there yet compared to the candle flicker LED. Since the games weren't close to shipping I haven't stressed it, but I'll still make sure we get it working for everyone's TBLs.

Right, I didn't have a dime down, I "dropped out" when the first payment was due and got cold feet over the price. Definitely didn't "free up any slots" or anything.

None of the collectors I talked to thought it was worth over $14k. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Someone should ask Jaap if TBL floats.

Woah.

Was my Neo voice too subtle?

Finally got to meet Melissa at Expo, she deserves all the thumbs up!

I'm on record loving DP and TBL, so no hate here. But that's just messed up man. They have your money right? I mean they'd send you a game if you didn't bail I'm assuming. So it's just bizarre that they're making you jump through BS hoops like that.

DP, you gotta get your house in order guys. Can't be treating people like that. Cut him a check and find the money yourself.

Sorry for the sour attitude, but that rubs me the wrong way when someone I know gets treated like that.

Anyways, game looks bad ass, can't wait to see the final thing, all hiccups aside.

I like to think of it as a mechanical video mode. Which is great, totally in the spirit of pinball. On the utterly ridiculous side too, but still, pretty awesome.

I had stars in my eyes after Expo 2014. Dutch Pinball was really impressive. I got cold feet when I sobered up a couple weeks later. Backed out before Phil Gate.

But man, they talked a good game. The reaction at Expo 2015 to their progress was pretty muted. But I'm still hopeful the final package will be great.

Wow, super stoked for you guys. Dropping out was the right call for me, but I still can't wait to play one of these bad boys in a home setting, instead of the Expo floor or a hotel suite.

I actually just came across my prototype the other day while digging for parts. I never got around to working with Scott to figure out where we'd tap for power, wire lengths, mounting, all that good stuff.

If I can be immodest for a moment, when I turned it on (hooked up to a 9 volt battery for testing with a switch) it looked pretty bad ass still.

With the price they're charging? It's limited by economics. Only so many people are going to pay that much for a pin, and then they'll have to shut the line down and move on would be my guess.

I can't see any bars buying a $10k pin. I think you owners are going to have a rare item.

I'm rooting for DP, I just think the audience for $10k pins is limited. We're talking twice what a Stern Pro goes for. Yes, there are big TBL fans, but if they're not pinball people I can't see them shelling out. Think about it, would you buy a $10k themed TBL ... I dunno, jukebox? Slot car track? Some other collectible hobby that doesn't have the same emotional connection we have with pins.

We're in the bubble here, we love pinball, and we're kinda used to these crazy prices. I think once you leave the appeal is pretty limited.

IMHO if you want one you should get it soon. Maybe I'm wrong! But this strikes me as the kind of thing you buy while you can.

Oh sure. It is what it is. I'm really glad it's actually being made, there was a time when it all seemed in jeopardy. And I have no crystal ball. Just have to see how it goes.

I hope they make a second game. I'll be honest though, I hope it's not $10k. These prices are just getting nuts.

JJP's top game is too expensive too!

Look, I'm not being down on Dutch Pinball, or the game. I'm just saying, if you want one you might want to get it soon, I can't see these being made for years. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, who cares. But if I'm right and you were sitting on the sidelines ... that's all I'm getting at.

Remember, WOZ, which managed to get JJP in the door, was what? $6500 if you pre-ordered? I don't know what would have happened if they came out the game with WOZ at $10k.

Licenses are cheap! Maybe there's some particular license that has crazy restrictions, but that's the exception, not the rule. Remember, companies like to make money. Licenses are great, the companies pay for a little lawyer time to look something over, and otherwise someone else does all the work and generates revenue off a property "for free". Just cash the checks.

I'm simplifying, obviously, and if you start involving music and getting rights/speech from certain actors etc it can get more tricky. But licenses being super expensive is a myth like LCDs costing huge amounts to develop for.

All of these costs are easy to roll into the price of a pin.

I can't think of way to say this that doesn't sound dickish, but I played this game nearly 2 years ago, why isn't the code further along after all this time?

Playfields are by Mirco, I expect them to be quality.

Man, this sucks, I was really hopeful that this project had managed to escape all the drama, still thought I'd get to visit Rarehero's machine sometime in the nearish future.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you all, and if these games every actually do ship I'll try and make up a batch of those joint mods for everyone to celebrate. Not gonna hold my breath though. Still, best of luck, hang in there as best you can, you've come this far, and I guess a lot of you don't really have a choice anyways ...

Huh, I must be imagining him telling me that the other night then.

He doesn't need to do anything mom, good lord.

So what you're saying is that anyone who gets a TBL should check it carefully with a black light?

blacklight (resized).png

At this rate Charlie at Spooky is going to be the only original owner left in pinball by the end of 2017. Tough business.

Just watching like anyone else. I'm a civilian these days. Back to my own projects. Like my title says, mods and opinions.

Have you revealed or shipped a game? I haven't paid attention since you got all butt hurt about not selling to Americans or something. Never quite understood it, but it seemed like holding a gun to your own head so I tuned out. Is that still the case?

Sounds good, glad to hear that no US games thing wasn't a real thing.

Can confirm that European pinball companies seem to take a lot of holidays.

Rarehero is my friend, so I'm not going to even pretend I'm not biased here, but it's not his fault you don't have your games, this is 100% on DP and their broken promises and poor management. Don't tear each other down over it.

I've been out for a long time, got cold feet when they wanted money and things weren't feeling right (lucky me), but I don't think anyone needs special permission to post in this thread. And no one needs to be nice about how they're feeling.

Facebook just did their "check out your memory!" crap on me, look at this thing:

10710863_10205387394552798_18717632551995562_n (resized).jpg

That was 3 freaking years ago, end of the TBL launch party at Expo. That's me and Rarehero in the middle with @fattrain. Was something like 4 in the morning, before the hotel kicked us out of the suite for being too loud. We were all in on the DP train, drank gallons of the Kool-Aid. I had nothing but good things to say about the company. That's Phil on the left.

Different era. Boy did it go to shit after that.

Frankly anyone who's been in this long has the right to be angry. They have the right to tell DP to go fuck themselves. They have the right to call them out on this latest nonsense, if you think building in China with this new pyramid scheme is a real solution I'd suggest thinking about it more. I know a little bit now about pinball building from the inside, not a lot mind you, but enough to know how hard it is with people who ostensibly understand pinball. Going to China is the last thing that makes sense to me, even if they had the money sorted, which they clearly don't.

I get that people want this to succeed, and you might resent anyone who's saying negative things if you think it's going to hurt the chances of that happening, but that ship sailed a long time ago, nothing needs to be said for people to think twice about giving these guys more money.

If you're mad you missed out on Greg's DP shirt you can have mine, I'm sure as hell not going to wear it.

The difference between Alien and TBL is there are some 100-200 Aliens out in the wild, as opposed to the handful of TBLs, so there's simply more scale to the resources.

Alien also has a team of people still around able to offer little bits of assistance where possible. It's probably much more finished code wise too for that matter, but I honestly have no idea what the state of TBL code really is anymore.

Still, it's proof that a lot of things are possible where there's desire and a will to solve problems.

Sure, I didn't mean scale like "let's make a profit selling fixes to people", but scale helps in two ways:

1) You just get a larger pool of people to have a chance of those motivated individuals, who also have the skills needed

2) When you want to do a run of PCBs, LED light boards or something, it's helpful to know there's a pool of owners who need them, often times there are just minimum viable run numbers to deal wtih

All I'm really getting at is if you can get enough TBL out into the wild the chances of people figuring out how to keep them running go up. Look at Alien as a test case for that notion.

It's a shit show, I dunno what to tell people. I bailed before sending in my first payment, just couldn't stomach what felt like a risk. Sorry that I was right, but it at least helps me imagine being in people's shoes. But my personal feeling is this:

- Anyone who lost money, it sucks, but these things are gambles and you gotta accept a certain about of risk. You're not getting a fridge from Best Buy

- Whatever personal feelings and emotions anyone has, the world is better off with games out being played than sitting in a factory

So I hope they get in people's hands. Someone is gonna get screwed on this, no doubt. But that ship sailed a long time ago.

And yet, Spooky has made over 1000 games. American Pinball might not be pumping them out, but I'm sure everyone in this thread wishes there were as many TBLs made as Houdini and Oktoberfest. One is a scrappy story of just doing the work, and being persistent, one is a story of investors footing the bill. Big spectrum there, but they both made it work.

Oh, I'm definitely sure of it. But it's been a pretty drama free factory, so that's nice.

This is why someone, anyone, just making this game again makes no sense to me. You either fuck everyone who was invested already, and the shit storm and probably lawsuits that brings. Or you start off some million dollars, give or take, in the hole. Which is a not awesome way to start making a product.

I'm no crystal ball reader, but the future of TBL seems over to me, this is it, move on.

Just out of curiosity, how would CT have done that? Just logistically speaking. Are they supposed to have some kind of list? Why would they? If you didn't order through them what would they know about it?

It's not like there were enough machines to satisfy all the EA people. No matter what a lot were going to be left in the cold with hurt feelings. I just don't see a winning move here. CT got offered this deal, apparently with almost no publicity they sold out practically instantly, and they're moving forward.

I get the desire to do something for the EA, but the fact is DP screwed all of them, and there's no magic band aid for it. Being mad at CT seems misplaced, be mad at DP.