(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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Topic index (key posts)

26 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20 (Show topic index)

There are 11122 posts in this topic. You are on page 94 of 223.
#4651 2 years ago
Quoted from Mike_M:

Hopefully we're not reading this wrong and the reason he got fired is because he kept on spending ARA assets/shipping without payment from DP.

Certainly a possibility as I don't know what else they are producing at the moment. But, if that was the case and DP was trying to help them get the line started again, you would think they would ship the completed games out of good faith.

Again, all we have is pure speculation. And the two parties that have communicated (DP and ARA), have proven themselves to not always be on the up and up.

So, the waiting and guessing game continues.

#4652 2 years ago

I just want my game man!

#4653 2 years ago

How many TBL's were delivered?
How many still sitting in the factory's
If I remember correctly Jaap said 40-50 games sitting on the factory floor.

105... so close!

#4654 2 years ago

This is BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Release the manufactured games. 3 hours, and not there yet.... WTF! Faith dwindling... More speculation, more nothing... This sucks.

#4655 2 years ago
Quoted from Khabbi:

Glad the update is "positive", but in reality there is no reason ARA can't just release the finished games right now if the meeting is truly about "producing TBL's" and being positive. One just requires a "here ya go" for games sitting there, the other is ramping back up the entire production process which is a whole other extreme.
A good faith, positive meeting to me would be releasing the finished games to show things are moving forward.
Anyone else feel this way?

The meeting as always is about money. How much is owed and when will it be paid? Just guessing but cash is always the sticking point.

#4656 2 years ago

Agreed, cash is king. Which is why we gave them OUR cash...to do THEIR job. This is getting ridiculous...

#4657 2 years ago

"this takes time"....heard that before. What...like 3 years? Set a deadline then!!!

#4658 2 years ago

For those of us not as lucky as the boxed game people I hope they make sure production is completed before shipping anything. Otherwise they could ship out whats there and say sorry everyone else.

18
#4659 2 years ago

So what is different about this update than the last, 3 weeks ago.......answer, nothing. They need to tell us exactly what the meeting about OUR money/game was about and why in three hours and another three weeks there is no new information. This is absolutely a bunch of bullshit and DP needs to come clean and be held accountable.

#4660 2 years ago

Sounds like its all about money, pay the extra money and get the games, dp won't pay or doesn't have the money to pay.

If it was me, I would pay the extra to get my game

#4661 2 years ago

Must be the money. And somewhere along the line somebody screwed us. Ummm...how is it possible completed machines still are NOT shipped?! Horse shit!

#4662 2 years ago

The last few years have taught me to disregard words unless they are backed up by actions. There has been so much pinball BS since the pre-order stuff started.

Go by actions, actions, actions, not words, words, words.

#4663 2 years ago

"It takes time"....it takes time...first...the already completed manufactured machines must ripen in their crates. How long? Well, after another meeting for 3 hours, we don't know. What we do know, is you paid us and your machine is built and ready in a crate, but..."it takes time." Now matter how this ends...that game still gets shipped to me...but...we can't say when. Can't even guess. SHIP THE COMPLETED MACHINES KNUCKLEHEADS!

#4664 2 years ago

Content of NSN and prior ones *could* be stalling and there's been no progress with ARA and little amelioration in the relationship.

However, I don't think it's anywhere near the stage where that is the only explanation as some of you seem to think. ARA or the new management likely have rather more duties to attend to than one small / medium sized client who *may* have been badly treated by the ex MD. It was posted here that the company didn't pay a bonus to its staff for the first time in its 40 year history. You would expect things have gone badly wrong, in that case. The management will be acting to protect their shareholders' and staff interests first, then DP, not the other way around.

Perhaps the books *are* looking alarming at DP as some suggest, but it's possible they could be at ARA too. With all the good will on both sides in the world, it may come down to a case of what each side can afford. That may take time to reach a consensus on.

If there's no substantive, concrete information by June, I think people can rightly then expect the worst. Now? Too soon.

#4665 2 years ago

I'm very bummed that a 3 hour meeting led here...nowhere...

#4666 2 years ago

The Vagueness.....ugh, I can't take the fucking vagueness. I'm sure there's some legalese they need to dance around and they don't wanna be caught in another PCB story - so that's prob why we're seeing this level of vagueness ....but man, give us SOMETHING in terms of details. Glarghghghghhhhhh....

#4667 2 years ago

Btw, did CoinTaker ever have a pre-order page for BoP 3.0 on their site? Since they were taking them at TPF, you would imagine they would?

#4668 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

The Vagueness.....ugh, I can't take the fucking vagueness. I'm sure there's some legalese they need to dance around and they don't wanna be caught in another PCB story - so that's prob why we're seeing this level of vagueness ....but man, give us SOMETHING in terms of details. Glarghghghghhhhhh....

Why the 3 weeks in between meetings?

A. Lawyers could be rewriting contracts and PD & ARA are negotiating the details...
B. DP is stalling while they try to come up with the money...
C. Any other suggestions?

-4
#4669 2 years ago

Could someone explain what happened here? I just clicked on the thread to see some awesome unboxing photos to find comments about lawyers etc. I don't have the time to dig through all 94 pages so if someone could summarize what happened that would be awesome. Thanks.

#4670 2 years ago
Quoted from fisherdaman:

Could someone explain what happened here? I just clicked on the thread to see some awesome unboxing photos to find comments about lawyers etc. I don't have the time to dig through all 94 pages so if someone could summarize what happened that would be awesome. Thanks.

Dutch Pinball and their manufacturer ARA are in a financial dispute, roughly 50 games shipped a while ago and 50 more are finished and ready to go, but are being held hostage by ARA until the financial dispute is settled. ARA's main guy that was handling this was fired by the company after negotiations had stalled, leading to negotiations re-starting again recently. It's he said, she said on the details of the financial dispute, but it sounds like ARA missed deadlines and upped the agreed upon price significantly and Dutch doesn't have the money or desire to pay more game.

#4671 2 years ago
Quoted from nwpinball:

ARA's main guy that was handling this was fired by the company

And who here really knows the reason why the guy was fired? All I've read is speculation/assumption that he was fired for a reason connected to the DP/Big Lebowski deal.

There may be something to this idea, as it appears ARA/DP are talking now... but that's just it. We're going 100% off what "appears to be happening."

20
#4672 2 years ago

Who cares about speculation. This is a DP issue period. So fing tell us why I can't get a refund? Duh no money! Or refund me now DP. Why does everyone stick their heads in the sand ? This is a DP issue. DP is telling us absolutely nothing. Why? Legal lol get fing real. They are stalling to find money. They owe money. They owe us money / machines. Give us the fucking answers and tell us where our money is and where our machines stand. Anything else is complete and utter bullshit. 5 weeks and not one piece of information. Get your heads out of your ass!

#4673 2 years ago

"We had a meeting to plan a meeting to plan a meeting that will be used to discuss our differences. After those 3 meetings, we will have a meeting to determine who will pay for things. At the time of this 4th meeting, we will sadly have to report that no one is willing to pay." Sorry guys.

And the only thing that's taking time at this point is the delaying of the lawsuits.

#4674 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Who cares about speculation. This is a DP issue period. So fing tell us why I can't get a refund? Duh no money! Or refund me now DP. Why does everyone stick their heads in the sand ? This is a DP issue. DP is telling us absolutely nothing. Why? Legal lol get fing real. They are stalling to find money. They owe money. They owe us money / machines. Give us the fucking answers and tell us where are money is and where our machines stand. Anything else is complete and utter bullshit. 5 weeks and not one piece of information. Get your heads out of your ass!

You know as well as anyone, that regardless of finances there's absolutely no way they're going to process refunds whilst ARA continue to hold both parts (some of which DP have paid for) and fully built games hostage. What was it, supposedly €100k plus in P-ROCs alone? Again, obviously operating on imperfect information, but if true there's no possibility of any refunds until such time as the ARA situation is resolved.

11
#4675 2 years ago

Rubberducks you obviously know everything there is to know about business. Yes right they are not allowed to refund me my money. Are you insane. My game isn't even built yet. I don't need you trying to convince other hard working hobbyists their hands are tied and DP can't pay refunds. They aren't paying because they don't have the money to pay them. That's fact. It is time they tell us exactly what is going on. 5 weeks is enough and I'm smart enough not to take advice from your legal knowledge of the situation. Is there even lawyers involved? Refund as per your own contract DP. You can't keep bullshitting the community enough is enough.

21
#4676 2 years ago

Opps Rubberducks d and f key so close together my apologies

#4677 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Opps Rubberducks d and f key so close together my apologies

There's an edit button...but it's hilarious that you wrote that & kept it for us to laugh at.

10
#4678 2 years ago

Duck the edit button

#4679 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

They aren't paying because they don't have the money to pay them. That's fact.

It's speculation. Just like everything else on here. Rest is redundant.

#4680 2 years ago

Hmm, plot twist... Apparently DP's main (or only?) software engineer (Koen) no longer works at DP according to LinkedIn...

#4681 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

It's speculation. Just like everything else on here. Rest is redundant.

No its not I have an email from them stating they can't. They don't have the money. I don't state things ever as speculation. I leave that for you.

#4682 2 years ago
Quoted from Compy:

Hmm, plot twist... Apparently DP's main (or only?) software engineer (Koen) no longer works at DP according to LinkedIn...

Big surprise there. Keep your heads in the sand people!

#4683 2 years ago
Quoted from Compy:

Hmm, plot twist... Apparently DP's main (or only?) software engineer (Koen) no longer works at DP according to LinkedIn...

Looks like it.

Listing shows that he has not just started a new job, but ended his period with DP in April.

Could be working on an informal basis ... but seems like rather bad news. What are the prospects of someone new taking on and (competently) finishing TBL at this stage? Probably quite low.

#4684 2 years ago
Quoted from Compy:

Hmm, plot twist... Apparently DP's main (or only?) software engineer (Koen) no longer works at DP according to LinkedIn...

Ho. Lee. Fuk.

-2
#4685 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

No its not I have an email from them stating they can't. They don't have the money. I don't state things ever as speculation. I leave that for you.

You stated that before. That they can't. Anyway, my post was not contingent on that (their financial position), as it explicitly states. I don't see how you can believe on any pragmatic basis that they would refund anyone in advance of getting potentially hundreds of thousands worth of paid product released from a 'hostage' situation.

That entire premise could be bullshit. But unless you're now going to claim that it is, and wholly fabricated, then it seems ridiculous to completely ignore it.

Nowhere do I state any certainties or claim to know exactly what's going on. You do constantly, but I'm not sure you do.

#4686 2 years ago

It is interesting how so many people treat these pinball businesses differently than basically any other businesses. If someone paid for something on Amazon, still hadn't received it years later than he was told he would and decided he wanted a refund, would you fault him expecting to be able to get his money back?

#4687 2 years ago

I rarely post, but every single person who gave DP money including myself better be furious! enough really is enough. wcbrandes has got the right feeling - everyone else who has money in this and doesnt care in hopes of it all settling should be a little more involved - because DP really isn't doing anything to help you. They are stressed out and they put themselves in that position. They spent our money on their daily nonsense and we are ok with delays and speculation and are hoping someone else will do the dirty work for us. Every owner should do something right now! These guys are screwing all of you who don't have a machine. They are literally hanging out living their lives completely helpless doing shit about it. They haven't been consistently engaged with the community bc their chicken shits, they haven't personally reached out to every single owner to apologize bc their lazy, they haven't offered possible solutions or taken surveys or requested community assistance or posted daily social media reassurances for good measure. They legit are terrible in every way. Horrible people with a great idea. They will always be awful despite "if" we get our machines - bc this kind of money being thrown around deserves respect thru out the entire process. These guys are failures. Doesnt matter the outcome - they're worthless examples of business and passion for anything. Pinball exists due part to the community and if you want to build a machine and take a dump on the community your passion lies within our money and how you wanted to spend it. I don't cater to people who don't like my opinions - read it how you want. Not getting into it with anybody.

#4688 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

It is interesting how so many people treat these pinball businesses differently than basically any other businesses. If someone paid for something on Amazon, still hadn't received it years later than he was told he would and decided he wanted a refund, would you fault him expecting to be able to get his money back?

They could be acting entirely in their own interests. But has it occurred to either you or Mr. Brandes, that with the current state of things, if talks with ARA fail, the whole thing could have to be shuttered?

They may or may not have enough money to pay for the mandated number of TBLs to be finished, but if the company is shut down, they almost certainly won't have enough cash to refund everyone in full.

If that is so, granting anyone a refund now is COMPLETELY against the interests of the vast majority of their customers with skin in this, because that would then mean that the majority of people would get less money back. It would be less fair and less equitable.

Can't blame Bill for wanting to protect his own interests, but those interests aren't necessarily conversant with everyone else's, as above.

Again, I'm not claiming this is what's happening, but some of you would do well to realise that this is potentially more complicated than you seem to think.

#4689 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

They could be acting entirely in their own interests. But has it occurred to either you or Mr. Brandes, that with the current state of things, if talks with ARA fail, the whole thing could have to be shuttered?
They may or may not have enough money to pay for the mandated number of TBLs to be finished, but if the company is shut down, they almost certainly won't have enough cash to refund everyone in full.
If that is so, granting anyone a refund now is COMPLETELY against the interests of the vast majority of their customers with skin in this, because that would then mean that the majority of people would get less money back. It would be less fair and less equitable.
Can't blame Bill for wanting to protect his own interests, but those interests aren't necessarily conversant with everyone else's, as above.
Again, I'm not claiming this is what's happening, but some of you would do well to realise that this is potentially more complicated than you seem to think.

There is also one possibility that folks need to consider as well, and I will admit it is a fiction born of my years as a detective, but the possibility does exist no matter how small.

ARA supposedly has several machines built, but they cannot sell them themselves due to the licensing. Now mind you, this is pure and absolute speculation, and if this were to happen, then DP would be a pile of crap......but what is to stop them from agreeing in the negotiations to have DP sell the completed machines to completely new buyers, therefore raising new capital to pay ARA what they are owed plus a few extra bucks for DP, and then the two walk away leaving all pre-paid investors holding the bag? ARA doesn't want machines in their warehouse they cant do anything with, and DP supposedly doesn't have money to get them out of hock. Barring any influx of outside cash, someone has to generate money somewhere, and the only thing that no one wants to keep are the games themselves. Even if they were to get the 50 completed games to the pre-paid customers, I don't think they would satisfy all of the debt, so whether you default on 1 or 50 is still a default. I am not trying to stir anything here, but there is always that possibility these guys are going to take the money and run....it has happened before.

I have no idea of international law, but if this were happening in the US, I would strongly advise those involved to seek a court order that bars the parties from disposing of any property until the whole matter is settled.

#4690 2 years ago
Quoted from Compy:

Hmm, plot twist... Apparently DP's main (or only?) software engineer (Koen) no longer works at DP according to LinkedIn...

That sucks to hear. He was just a paid employee, so do the math.

#4691 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

That sucks to hear. He was just a paid employee, so do the math.

Pay may not have anything to do with it, I'm fairly sure Koen wasn't all that happy being the sole programmer at DP (based on past conversations), hacking away on just pinball code by himself. He may have just left out of dissatisfaction, nevermind any other issues.

#4692 2 years ago

I'm surprised some of you expected unicorns and rainbows after yesterday's "meeting."

Let's not be naive. DP doesn't have cash, otherwise the 40-50 hostage games would've been released and shipped by now. The "we can't refund you" BS solidifies my point. I'd like to see them tell a judge this line of crap.

#4693 2 years ago
Quoted from Compy:

Hmm, plot twist... Apparently DP's main (or only?) software engineer (Koen) no longer works at DP according to LinkedIn...

Good thing they were working on the TBL code and improving it over the last ~9 months of being at a standstill and lying about the board issues.

#4694 2 years ago
Quoted from Compy:

Hmm, plot twist... Apparently DP's main (or only?) software engineer (Koen) no longer works at DP according to LinkedIn...

It's pretty ridiculous that you guys have to get news like this from here. Shouldn't Jaap be mentioning this in the updates, instead of the same vauge statements?

#4695 2 years ago
Quoted from Compy:

Hmm, plot twist... Apparently DP's main (or only?) software engineer (Koen) no longer works at DP according to LinkedIn...

Wow. Checked his linked-in and it says indeed this. News for me to

#4696 2 years ago

puuuh, that Koen´s left is really bad news, even for those of us who already have their TBL....

#4697 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

That sucks to hear. He was just a paid employee, so do the math.

He was a lot more than just a paid employee. Take a walk down memory lane over on the pinballcontrollers forums. I don't think it's overstated to say that he was essential to DP ever existing as a pinball company. He was there from the start and made BoP2.0 a reality. He's really a seriously talented software engineer and has been a valuable member of the p-roc community for a long while now.

Even if he's transitioned to only part time status with DP this is an enormous loss.

Sad times.

#4698 2 years ago
Quoted from Mocean:

He was a lot more than just a paid employee. Take a walk down memory lane over on the pinballcontrollers forums. I don't think it's overstated to say that he was essential to DP ever existing as a pinball company. He was there from the start and made BoP2.0 a reality. He's really a seriously talented software engineer and has been a valuable member of the p-roc community for a long while now.
Even if he's transitioned to only part time status with DP this is an enormous loss.
Sad times.

Seeing that DP was always more "a few dudes" than a real company - is this really a surprise? They don't have any product going out like a company would need if it were to have full time employees. I guarantee he was never getting anything resembling a salary. Makes sense that he's gotta find "real" work. The real question is - is he the type of guy to "pull a Lyman"...work on the game on his own time or has he completely distanced himself from the project?

#4699 2 years ago

Just checked Koen's LinkedIn page and it looks like he started with a new job last month. Good for him. I don't think DP had enough for him to work on fulltime at the moment, so I don't see a problem. TBL code can also be finished by him as a freelancer. Congrats on his new job!

#4700 2 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

Just checked Koen's LinkedIn page and it looks like he started with a new job last month. Good for him. I don't think DP had enough for him to work on fulltime at the moment, so I don't see a problem. TBL code can also be finished by him as a freelancer. Congrats on his new job!

That may be but DP will still need to account for it and they don't need to wait on ARA for an explanation.

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