(Topic ID: 115360)
Linked Games
The Big Lebowski
Dutch Pinball, 2016
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Joliet, IL
Quoted from Rick432:well... euros anyway.
shucks.
I was saying guilders to be a smartass.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:Im glad you finally get my point . now relax
Go play your TBL!
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:the story doenst matter, you paid, youre in the hole, you did that with the risk in mind, now you suffer. Or... you can choose not to suffer and wait and see
Quoted from Rensh:Another point to think about. When DP came to ARA with a million+ dollar undertaking and being a startup, do you really think that ARA would just say come on in, we will worry about the money later. For sure they did their research and DP had to play it very open with open books to get it even started-going.
So ARA would only start this whole project knowing they could get paid at the end. However, than you don't held up to your end of the bargain, eg deliver the pins in 2015, but delay and delay and put other customers upfront. This makes DP look bad in our eyes but it also causes to see TBL funds slowly decrease. Still ARA doesn't act so they think they still can be paid. Than june 2016 they recalculate the figures (for a 3rd time: made price in april 2015 and again in may 2015, guessing that the production of the engineering samples in 2015 learned them this) and find out they need more money to make a profit.
They are not looking for ways to decrease costs (speed up building, buying parts in larger quantities to reduce costs, etc), take their responsibility (it's their miscalculation after all) but turn (again) to DP. DP accepts IF they get the TBLs in 2016 out of the door plus additional 50 pcs BoP3.
These Bops are paid by CT and Nitro for sure (no pre ordering after all) and generate profit in order to overcome the price increase from ARA. So DP was reasonable sure to get an income from CT and Nitro.
Than it takes Ara some time to get the invoice out of the shipment of 21 pcs TBL end july, it has a payment term and during the payment term it turns out in october that 1) production TBL is not stepped up and 2) parts for Bop3 have not been ordered (so the needed money to pay for the price-increase will not come). So ARA f*cks with DP again and leaving them hanging. DP than refuses to pay the higher invoice and here we are. Looking at the history of proven unreliability from ARA I can't really blame them. I am even getting the feeling that if they were paid for the 70-90? pcs (dependable if april batch TBL of approx 21 pcs is paid yes-no) ARA would just stop production and leaving 210 buyers without anything.
Even if DP is now short of even the Original agreed amount this is also due to the fact that TBL is overdue like over a year and 3 persons living for a year costs money. This is a year where the delay causes DP to not get fresh money in the door. Who is to blame here? ARA. People will now state DP has done design changes causes the delay and I dare them : point to me where these DESIGNchanges are? Have the ramps moved from left to right? Has the upper playfield become a bottom playfield? Yes, there have been manufactureing changes made by ARA because there original ideas for how to make a reliable rugtoy for instance were proven to be not errorfree. This is a MANUFACTURERchange responsibility ARA, not DP
And yes, we have bought our TBL with DP, not ARA. So we totally shouldnt care if DP or ARA is to blame because from a customer view its always DP. But this is not how it works unfortunately. If a small company has this kind of problems it also becomes the problem of the customer
The above is ofcourse based on stories-newsletters from DP, not on written proof or talks with ARA. So it may be worth nothing or everything.
The one interesting new tidbit, if I understand it, is that CT and Nitro are buying BOPs outright and then selling them? Is that correct?
Lennisheuvel
No, not shut up,..pressure will bring something more then no pressure.
All dudes here have the right to speak up and get as much info as they can get.
TBL is prio #1 and it should be delivered. period.
But all these talks about ARA and how and what with DP, is not going to bring anything. neither are lawsuits.
really sit back and wait is all whats left for you, it is and was your own risk.
In the end its all bout money, DP dudes are not gonna eat grass for the rest of their lives, ARE ppl eiter.
so wait and see. You can afford it..
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:really sit back and wait is all whats left for you, it is and was your own risk.
The first few to "make trouble" are likely the only ones who *may* get something (just to shut them up). Might as well light the fire. Get Universal involved! If you sit back and wait more money gets burned. You don't want to be the guy holding the bag in the end. Jump off the pyramid now any way you can!
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:You can afford it..
I can also afford to fly 1st class to The Netherlands to smack you in the back of the head, but it doesn't mean I should do it just because I can afford to do so.
I'm having the hardest time understanding why universal would care about any of this. One would assume they've already been paid.
Quoted from highdef:I can also afford to fly 1st class to The Netherlands to smack you in the back of the head, but it doesn't mean I should do it just because I can afford to do so.
first of all, do you have any deposit in here?
second, did and do you still have some common sense in your vains?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I'm having the hardest time understanding why universal would care about any of this. One would assume they've already been paid.
I can confirm that they care.
Quoted from PinBackpacker:How long before people start contacting ARA trying to buy TBLs directly?
We've already tried. They haven't bit....yet.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I'm having the hardest time understanding why universal would care about any of this.
They may only care when it comes to licensing any of their properties in the future. DP may need to travel "Back to the Future" to make amends for TBL should they choose to go after another Universal license.
Quoted from Skins:No, you are so bent over carrying DP's water you can't see the one and only fact. It doesn't matter one damn bit if ARA screwed DP. They chose to partner with ara. They reviewed and signed the contract with ara. They touted ara as a reason people could trust them. Their responsibility it to the purchasers of tbl. All the other stuff is happy horseshit. ARA is DP's problem to figure out and news flash, waiting it out months or years as Jaap said is malfeasance of the highest order. What's naive is to continue to beat DP's drum even after they have faltered time and time again. I struggle to see how someone could be at diametric ends of the reality spectrum as you are to myself. It is then that I come to the conclusion that you will quite literally say anything needed to maintain your narrative no matter the facts to the contrary. I'm sure you're a good guy but on this matter you are simply unhinged.
Again, per the post I was responding to, you can't see beyond the end of your own nose and see everything as absolute.
The reason I'm making the arguments I am is because of the circlejerk here. There are no shades of grey as far as either you or 90% of the other posters are concerned. There are many.
It was exactly the same with AP, on both ends of the spectrum, when they first appeared and now, and indeed DP when they were apparently heroes and now villains.
Facts? People, including you, are constantly claiming completely made up or inferred narrative as fact.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:first of all, do you have any deposit in here?
second, did and do you still have some common sense in your vains?
Deposit? I'm paid in FULL.
You do have a point on the common sense. After all, I AM guilty of still believing in / trusting DP even after the meltdown with Phil. I suppose that's why I'm here looking at options with my fellow flippers so that we're not holding our sausages if/when DP doesn't pull through this mess. If you go back, you'll see how I've been one of DP's biggest proponents.
Quoted from eggbert52:For those of you saying the profits from BOP 3.0 aren't enough to get the rest of the TBL made, what makes you think so? 25 BOP, $12,500 per machine = $312,500.
250 remaining TBL with $1,000 increase = $250,000. The cost of each BOP to make is probably $2.5K so that's your remaining $62,500. Totally feasible.
Nobody has made mention that the PPS Standard Fee for licensing is 20% (which most likely is also in play here)
$12500 less 20 % = $10,000
Also, one can assume Cointaker and Nitro Also profitting $500-$700 per game
So roughly Gross Income to DP would be $9300-$9500 which is right around the same cost as TBL was I believe?
once more...and goodnight..
forget about lawsuits, ARA, businessmodels, contracts beteen CM and DP, you will never know.Its none of your business. You all are in the same boat. Wait and see and maybe you get your machine. Dudes like us who are on the boat, it may sink or not. Dudes like me and you will not make a difference, it is and was our own risk.
Standing by DP is all whats left, so try to be possitive and keep supporting them is all you can do.
BTW I do have a TBL at home.
Quoted from rubberducks:People, including you, are constantly claiming completely made up or inferred narrative as fact.
While I generally don't engage people that resort to the "I know you are but what am I" retort, I'll humor you for one more post. Please direct me to one item in my post you quoted where I, in your words, "completely made up or inferred narrative as fact".
I'm waiting...
Quoted from NeilMcRae:sorry ducks but do you think holding the machines to hostage, having the pitchforks and torches and publicity generated by doing this is saving face or their job?! I don't think so! I doubt this is a one way dispute, but possession is nine tenths of the law. ARA are chilling out drinking wine and eating cheese. DP are sitting on the shitter dumping all over their customers and ruining their own future.
The whole thing clearly got way out of hand long ago on both ends.
I sincerely doubt there isn't significant anxiety, anger and regret on both sides.
To claim that "ARA are chilling out drinking wine and eating cheese" is ridiculous.
Regardless of whether either party is ultimately exonerated, doubt will always remain for some, and it's appalling PR and business for both.
Obviously for DP in such a small, incestuous industry. ARA are to some extent insulated given that this is firmly non-core business, but word travels quickly in a country as small as NL ... and all these newly google cached mentions of their trading name.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:BTW I do have a TBL at home.
Having said that twice now, are you just here to jack off in front of everyone? Is that a dutch thing or something?
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:once more...and goodnight..
forget about lawsuits, ARA, businessmodels, contracts beteen CM and DP, you will never know.Its none of your business. You all are in the same boat. Wait and see and maybe you get your machine. Dudes like us who are on the boat, it may sink or not. Dudes like me and you will not make a difference, it is and was our own risk.
Standing by DP is all whats left, so try to be possitive and keep supporting them is all you can do.
BTW I do have a TBL at home.
GTFO 
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:you will never know.Its none of your business.
It IS our business Foolio! It is OUR money at stake. You have your game so stop telling us how to feel or act.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:Wait and see and maybe you get your machine. Standing by DP is all whats left, so try to be possitive and keep supporting them is all you can do
We've been waiting since 2014. How much longer should we kick it?
You seem to be the unofficial company spokesman. Please relay to DP that BoP 3.0 is a TERRIBLE idea.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:once more...and goodnight..
forget about lawsuits, ARA, businessmodels, contracts beteen CM and DP, you will never know.Its none of your business. You all are in the same boat. Wait and see and maybe you get your machine. Dudes like us who are on the boat, it may sink or not. Dudes like me and you will not make a difference, it is and was our own risk.
Standing by DP is all whats left, so try to be possitive and keep supporting them is all you can do.
BTW I do have a TBL at home.
I've thumbs downed you so much I got a potential "abuse" message. LOL! 
Quoted from Skins:While I generally don't engage people that resort to the "I know you are but what am I" retort, I'll humor you for for one more post. Please direct me to one item in my post you quoted where I, in your words, "completely made up or inferred narrative as fact".
I'm waiting...
You even claim in your prior posts that all contracts (you deal with - and imply others by extension) are black and white with no grey area.
Seriously? I guess that's why so many disputes take so long to go through the courts, and cost so much money, pinging back and forth to courts of appeal, judgement going in one party's favour, then the other. Many of those clients were no doubt assured by their lawyers that their contracts were ironclad, and sure of it.
In the event of disputes there's no such thing as black and white until courts have delivered their verdicts and the appeals process has been exhausted, or they are resolved or withdrawn. You may try to make things as explicit as possible, as much as anything to deter other parties from acting in poor faith or taking legal action, but there's no such thing as a surety.
I wasn't beating DP's drum in the post that got you so riled up. Merely pointing out that if ARA either organisationally or on the part of individual staff had made significant mistakes, there could be every reason why they'd dig their heels in, whilst others were claiming there was no conceivable reason why they would.
Quoted from Pimp77:I've thumbs downed you so much I got a potential "abuse" message. LOL!
Am I gonna get a warning for thumbs upping you so much, Pimp!? Take my upright thumb! TAKE IT!!!!!!
Guys, none of you have your TBLs, but let's stand by DP because doing otherwise might hurt my chances at getting polished code. 
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:once more...and goodnight..
forget about lawsuits, ARA, businessmodels, contracts beteen CM and DP, you will never know.Its none of your business. You all are in the same boat. Wait and see and maybe you get your machine. Dudes like us who are on the boat, it may sink or not. Dudes like me and you will not make a difference, it is and was our own risk.
Standing by DP is all whats left, so try to be possitive and keep supporting them is all you can do.
BTW I do have a TBL at home.
And maybe you are speculating it will increase in value if the rest of the dudes don't get theirs? lol In cases like this, one should never just shut up and wait things out.....that is a good way to be at the end of the line when/if there is anything to recover. Buyers should be doing everything they can to protect their interests at this point. If DP could be trusted, it might be different, but the only known facts are really who has money in this game, and the fact they were lied to by their supplier.
Quoted from rubberducks:You even claim in your prior posts that all contracts (you deal with - and imply others by extension) are black and white with no grey area.
Seriously? I guess that's why so many disputes take so long to go through the courts, and cost so much money, pinging back and forth to courts of appeal, judgement going in one party's favour, then the other. Many of those clients were no doubt assured by their lawyers that their contracts were ironclad, and sure of it.
In the event of disputes there's no such thing as black and white until courts have delivered their verdicts and the appeals process has been exhausted, or they are resolved or withdrawn. You may try to make things as explicit as possible, as much as anything to deter other parties from acting in poor faith or taking legal action, but there's no such thing as a surety.
I wasn't beating DP's drum in the post that got you so riled up. Merely pointing out that if ARA either organisationally or on the part of individual staff had made significant mistakes, there could be every reason why they'd dig their heels in, whilst others were claiming there was no conceivable reason why they would.
So I asked you to point out one thing in my post you quoted where I, "completely made up or inferred as fact" something and you didn't/couldn't do it. Just as I suspected. Instead you speak in hyperbole and change the argument. Riled up? Hardly. People who make poorly framed straw man arguments aren't worthy of eliciting such a response. You pointed to a post where I said contracts are black and white. I stand by that statement. How a contract is interpreted can be misconstrued and thus gray area. That is the failings of the parties involved but the framework of the contract is what it is.
Dutch...you say you are in the right....post the contract then....if everything is truthful now and you are 100% in the right....POST THE PROOF....well unless it's in dutch.....this dude can't read it.
.....F---K it LEBOWSKI!!!,,,,post it anyway!
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:noo! cmon I never said that or wish for that. I want all dudes to get their machines, it just doesnt make any difference whether you come up with ''good ideas'' or not
You can help at least one Achiever relax! Yes you! Just send them your machine and take their waiting spot. The other benefit of this is that you won't be worrying about complete code anymore. Two birds, right?
Quoted from Mr68:On this we can agree to disagree. I realize I'm in the minority here but I believe Phill was mean spirited in manipulating Pinside with partial and out of context emails while trying to sabotage his partners. Any internal problems DP had should have been handled privately with a lawyer and not paraded in public.
Hm, have to disagree. This is how I see it:
Phil wanted nothing but out. DP was demonstrating games and distributing flyers that directly violated their agreement with the studio, and Phil knew that. DP was spending lots of money on parties and promotion. Phil was receiving and responsible for all US deposits, possibly personally. Phil had cancer and was fearful for his family's finances if TBL project went south. DP *wouldn't let him out* because it would be difficult to create a new US presence, so he forced the issue and escaped by refunding all the money in his account. His account, not DP's. Most importantly, as soon as that was all done, he disappeared from the hobby, which is exactly what I'd expect if all the preceding was true.
The fact that the DP folks could stand there at Expo and Terry's and take our money and say everything was fine, when obviously it wasn't... when they knew the game they were showing wasn't close to being approved (hey, where's those 20 licensed songs?)
And now we have this latest round of dishonesty... "bad boards" etc..
I do not blame Phil.
Quoted from metallik:Hm, have to disagree. This is how I see it:
Phil wanted nothing but out. DP was demonstrating games and distributing flyers that directly violated their agreement with the studio, and Phil knew that. DP was spending lots of money on parties and promotion. Phil was receiving and responsible for all US deposits, possibly personally. Phil had cancer and was fearful for his family's finances if TBL project went south. DP *wouldn't let him out* because it would be difficult to create a new US presence, so he forced the issue and escaped by refunding all the money in his account. His account, not DP's. Most importantly, as soon as that was all done, he disappeared from the hobby, which is exactly what I'd expect if all the preceding was true.
The fact that the DP folks could look stand there at Expo and Terry's and take our money and say everything was fine, when obviously it wasn't... when they knew the game they were showing wasn't close to being approved (hey, where's those 20 licensed songs?)
And now we have this latest round of dishonesty... "bad boards" etc..
I do not blame Phil.
Cool. I wish you had posted my entire quote but no matter, we can agree to disagree.
I was just informed that ARA fired their Managing Director, who I was actually supposed to talk to next week. This could actually be a good thing for TBL as things now may move forward. It could also indicate the problem was at ARA and not at DP. Will post more news when I have any.
Quoted from unigroove:I was just informed that ARA fired their Managing Director, who I was actually supposed to talk to next week. This could actually be a good thing for TBL as things now may move forward. It could also indicate the problem was at ARA and not at DP. Will post more news when I have any.
You beat me to it 
The above is correct. The manager called Rene was fired on the spot and this was yesterday publically announced in the canteen in front of all the employees by 2 commissioners from ARA holding
Firing on the spot is very unusual in NL and only done in cases like theft, sexual misabuse or gross mismanagement. I suspect the latter is the case.
This opens possibilities for sure and deserves a White Russian to celebrate this. Let's all take a stand now in wait what kind of news this brings next week or the week after
I just find it hard to believe that any company like ARA would just stop manufacturing a product and be OK having valuable factory space sit idle because it's full of parts and completed products. That costs money.
Fingers crossed that this new development is the catalyst for a return to manufacturing so we can focus on the fun aspects of pinball.
Especially for guys like me who have never owned a pin before, but it was this theme that got them to jump in.
Quoted from Rensh:Firing on the spot is very unusual in NL and only done in cases like theft, sexual misabuse or gross mismanagement. I suspect the latter is the case.
Probably sexual abuse - Rene may have fucked a bunch of strangers in the ass....
Quoted from RTR:Probably sexual abuse - Rene may have fucked a bunch of strangers in the ass....
...while in the Alps.
Quoted from Rensh:You beat me to it
The above is correct. The manager called Rene was fired on the spot and this was yesterday publically announced in the canteen in front of all the employees by 2 commissioners from ARA holding
Firing on the spot is very unusual in NL and only done in cases like theft, sexual misabuse or gross mismanagement. I suspect the latter is the case.
This opens possibilities for sure and deserves a White Russian to celebrate this. Let's all take a stand now in wait what kind of news this brings next week or the week after
Thanks for the additional info.
Quoted from RTR:Probably sexual abuse - Rene may have fucked a bunch of strangers in the ass....
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:BTW I do have a TBL at home
Good for you...What an asshole...best thing you can do is play your TBL and stop posting in this thread...
Quoted from unigroove:I was just informed that ARA fired their Managing Director, who I was actually supposed to talk to next week. This could actually be a good thing for TBL as things now may move forward. It could also indicate the problem was at ARA and not at DP. Will post more news when I have any.
Quoted from Rensh:You beat me to it
The above is correct. The manager called Rene was fired on the spot and this was yesterday publically announced in the canteen in front of all the employees by 2 commissioners from ARA holding
Firing on the spot is very unusual in NL and only done in cases like theft, sexual misabuse or gross mismanagement. I suspect the latter is the case.
This opens possibilities for sure and deserves a White Russian to celebrate this. Let's all take a stand now in wait what kind of news this brings next week or the week after
Now THIS is news I wanted to hear. Not some $12.5 BOP.
I hate to get ahead of things but right now I'm feeling optimistic again.
Well something is moving, hope the manager was fired because of the problem, not that he was fired because he proposed the solution. I hope Jonathan is going on with his pursuit to get some answers.
Quoted from Rensh:The above is correct. The manager called Rene was fired on the spot and this was yesterday publically announced in the canteen in front of all the employees by 2 commissioners from ARA holding
Dang - and I can confirm that Renee was the point person at ARA in regards Lebowski. This could def lead to good news. Maybe. Who the F knows, the ins/outs/whathaveyou are getting crazier than the movie.
I think we should all go and play a rollercoaster Tycoon. This as a practice for the last week and coming weeks 
Definitely this feels like a roller coaster. Jumping every direction and changing it by the second.
Quoted from Rensh:I think we should all go and play a rollercoaster Tycoon. This as a practice for the last week and coming weeks
Definitely this feels like a roller coaster. Jumping every direction and changing it by the second.
We should watch The Big Lebowski. I feel like we're in a real life version of the movie. Lots of ins, outs, whathaveyou...nihilists, ringers....the dude just wanted his rug.
Quoted from Rarehero:We should watch The Big Lebowski. I feel like we're in a real life version of the movie. Lots of ins, outs, whathaveyou...nihilists, ringers....the dude just wanted his rug.
I think I'll just go bowling instead for the time being.
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