Money scam?

55092123 (resized).jpg

Thank you, my mistake and I appreciate you pointing that out. I have amended my comment.

We should keep in mind that there are a good number of orders through Cointaker, which are deposits only - and DP doesn't have any of that money. If they were stalling on paying due to just flat out not having cash available, cash would have started to pour in their way once Cointaker started getting full payments for shipping games. Had they been able to hold off ARA long enough, they probably would have been table to pay them with the CT Lebowski money.

With all the speculation and discussion, I am curious if anyone here has read Jaap's book that was referenced in the DP seminar?

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://www.lekkerlevenhetboek.nl/

I entered the seminar towards the end, so I don't know if it might provide some perspective on his approach to working on problem resolution. For those who know Dutch, I apologize for the proactive translation to English.

Brad

That's certainly a possibility, that it's all as Dutch says and ARA is doing this as a money grab. I don't really think that's likely given:

Dutch has shown poor business dealings before with Philgate
Dutch lied to their customers previously about the ARA issue
ARA has been around for a long time as an established business whereas Dutch Pinball is a brand new startup.

I mean ARA could be a shitty business partner but they seem to be doing very serious and legit business:
ARA is 9001 certified so has had its processes independently audited.
ARA has a medium sized company partner list
ARA employs > 50 employees.

Doesn't matter what kind of business it is. As someone else mentioned, if one or more people at ARA fucked up horribly, do you think they're likely to fall on their swords and do a mea culpa, particularly if they're relatively senior?

Highly, highly unlikely. They'll do anything they can to save their job, save face, or both. Wagons will circle and they'll dig their heels in.

It's what usually happens in these scenarios.

The chances that something like this will happen increase exponentially even if it has either never or rarely happened before, doing a CM job for pinball, which they were no doubt completely unfamiliar with and it looks like inadequately prepared for.

I'm not saying this is what happened, but it is not at all unlikely.

I believe it to be unlikely. If there was evidence that ARA was trying to do a screw-job to Dutch, then Dutch would be better off getting the lawyers. If ARA is in breach of contract or specific performance requirements, then Dutch could win damages from ARA enough to have the games made elsewhere. They might even be liable for punitive damages (I am not a Dutch lawyer so...) in which case Dutch could gain MORE than they paid back to ARA.

Again, same thing applies... if I were Barry / Jaap here, and my company's existence were on the line, and I needed a lawyer to save the company, I'd take out the loan and hire the lawyer. Most of these lawyers work for damages anyways.

It's just incredibly charitable to Dutch Pinball to give them the benefit of the doubt here.

It could still take years, even if they win.

You don't need to give DP the benefit of the doubt, but you and others are being grossly naive in imagining that a one way street is the only explanation.

I think I agree.

If DP thought they had a water tight case I think they would have been more vocal at TPF.

No, you are so bent over carrying DP's water you can't see the one and only fact. It doesn't matter one damn bit if ARA screwed DP. They chose to partner with ara. They reviewed and signed the contract with ara. They touted ara as a reason people could trust them. Their responsibility it to the purchasers of tbl. All the other stuff is happy horseshit. ARA is DP's problem to figure out and news flash, waiting it out months or years as Jaap said is malfeasance of the highest order. What's naive is to continue to beat DP's drum even after they have faltered time and time again. I struggle to see how someone could be at diametric ends of the reality spectrum as you are to myself. It is then that I come to the conclusion that you will quite literally say anything needed to maintain your narrative no matter the facts to the contrary. I'm sure you're a good guy but on this matter you are simply unhinged.

More wild speculation: Just to add as far as critically looking at ARA.. if ARA was that successful of a CM, they would be wanting to free up the space in their facility for their next client. These kinds of things get scheduled out well in advance.

If It was 100% DP fault things are where they are, feels like they could of kicked DP out, siteing lack of payment as breach of contract, and moved on to next client.

Instead they have an entire building idle with TBLs, and parts, sitting there hostage and a stalemate.. which to me anyway, feel like ARA could have no more work coming in anyway so they can afford to screw around and have their own financial issue they are trying to squeeze DP for (which, is exactly what DP side of story supports)

So, can speculate either way.. it def was unprofessional for ARA to email DPs customers anyway.. can't imagine that was run by ARA lawyers. And DP lied about the boards.. so plenty of blame to go around.

You're 100% correct. Thank god Jaap's attorney advised him, in spite of all the evidence you proffered, to just wait it out. Who needs, nay who wants, resolution this year. I think 2018 is a better year for tbl. Even numbered year and all, you know.

Based on the other Dutch info releases including the video at the CM facility, ARA ramped up a specific team to assemble the games. I don't know if they have space constraints; but I would imagine they were running TBL alongside their regular customers and processes. I don't think TBL held back their traditional business.

If they believe DP is broke, they can hold the games hostage and force them to raise additional capital in order to pay them for work already done. They probably believe more money can come from DP's customers. They might not be able to sell the existing games to recoup losses so just cutting DP off isn't going to net them any of the sunk costs back.

Agree, but pinsiders were probably calling / emailing / otherwise wasting ARA people's time. They could have communicated that info directly to customers in order to either stop unneeded contact or because they felt DP misrepresenting the 'boards' issue provided some sort of negative PR about their firm.

On this we can agree to disagree. I realize I'm in the minority here but I believe Phill was mean spirited in manipulating Pinside with partial and out of context emails while trying to sabotage his partners. Any internal problems DP had should have been handled privately with a lawyer and not paraded in public.

Although Pinside loves trash like this, it was completely unprofessional of him to bring those issues here. On top of that, I believe many of the things he said were untrue and/or exaggerations. I will admit that Phill was very clever in presenting his skewed evidence but a keen eye could tell many things just didn't add up. Even present day I am shaking my head at what Phill did.

This is ancient history and my opinion. I have no intent to argue this point or go off topic. And I am not defending DP for this current round of problems.

They are in dangerous potential legal waters and attempting to negotiate a deal. They have to be careful and limited in what they say. I'm surprised they've said as much as they have so far.

Your kidding right? So lie instead?

There is no excuse for telling lies. That isn't what I said or implied.

Trawling through all these posts just going round and round and round ‍♂️.

Moderation... please lock thread until ARA representative has got back to Johnathan

I am still having trouble believing DP's story/timeline.

Were they renegotiating FOB every 50 units (or 3 months)? How did the cost go up after the first 50 units were built and then again (after the 2nd round of 40)? It does not make sense. They would have calculated costs prior to tooling or procurement of parts and negotiated (with labor) based on the 300 or so units. ARA knew where the ceiling stood from the get-go, otherwise they would not have taken on this project.

Supposedly, Jaap's background and expertise is Project Management. How do you let 4 months (June-October) go by without knowing parts weren't ordered? Why isn't the BoP prototype further along? If they were trying to get the pin out by December, why wouldn't they have a more complete/"finished" working prototype available in time for Expo in Chicago (how/where else would they have announced this new game)? Dialed In and Batman 66 were announced in September/October. How would DP have known or foreseen the market for $12,500 pins back in June? I don't buy this story.

I'm also having a very hard time believing that ARA would be hush and standstill on a price increase, especially in the beginning of production. I work with Chinese CMs and they have no problem or difficulty communicating cost-ups BEFORE manufacturing begins. You don't want to tie up your lines, so you're not going to pout and halt everything to make a point instead of building other products.

June 2016
ARA informs DP that the agreed price is too low because the cost price is higher than estimated (again). This time, ARA demands over €1.000 extra per TBL. After several negotiations, DP agrees with this new price, but only under the condition that ARA seriously speeds up production and delivers 300 TBL plus 50 units of our second title: Bride of Pinbot 25th anniversary, before December 31, 2016.

October 2016
DP finds out that ARA has not ordered a single part for the 50 BoP25s. When DP confronts ARA with this, ARA insists on the higher price. DP refuses to pay this price since the condition will not be realized. ARA announces production stop of TBL.

Are you kidding? Never. Don't like the thread? BYE! Drain it.

As long as we're all F'D IN THE ASS (Lebowski quote, don't boot me), all discussion about Dutch remains open.

Usually payment is delivered in milestones for contract work. So N delivery target is met, pay $100K. When M delivery target is met, pay $200K. etc. I don't see any issue with their timeline. In fact, I think it's totally probable that ARA asked them for a larger payment per game for the next set of games. The questions that arise from that are:

Did the contract signed originally allow for increases in cost based on supply chain issues, labor issues, time issues, etc etc?
Did Dutch Pinball budget this game appropriately? Assuming there was profit in the game after BOM is paid and CM is paid per game, what happened with the profits? New businesses should keep retained earnings in case shit goes sideways like unforeseen expenses such as this.

Payment and FOB pricing are two different things. You negotiate FOB based on the largest volume you can forecast in order to get the best price possible. What would cause the price to increase after 50 units and then again after a 2nd round of 40? All parts should have been procured by then. There weren't any drastic changes in the currency exchange/labor market to warrant such an increase. Why would Dutch agree to the first price increase if there were milestones set for TBL?
Poor negotiation either way.

sorry ducks but do you think holding the machines to hostage, having the pitchforks and torches and publicity generated by doing this is saving face or their job?! I don't think so! I doubt this is a one way dispute, but possession is nine tenths of the law. ARA are chilling out drinking wine and eating cheese. DP are sitting on the shitter dumping all over their customers and ruining their own future.

Is it possible this is a currency exchange issue? That one party expected to be paid in one currency but the other expected to pay in another? That agreements were made when exchange rate between guilders and dollars were significantly different? It would explain some stalling we see on both ARA's and DP's ends...

No.

And the Dutch don't use guilders any more.

So, one part I'm missing by all the arguing....

In the 2nd letter from ARA that Greg posted, it says that the last container that was sent to the US has also not yet been paid for by Dutch Pinball. That is what triggered the stoppage of shipping more games and the production of additional units. Unless I read this incorrectly.

Again, assuming APA is stating facts, hostage game owners are going to have to pong up much more than $1100 USD to get things rolling again.

I am really hoping Jonathan gets more info and a resolution can be found. This game needs to become more than just a collector show piece. It was manufactured and designed far to good for that. This thing needs to be played and enjoyed by pinheads all over.

Time for the truth folks, so the pinball community can step in where shitty management (one place or the other) left off.

All faults aside (and I know this is only a bunch of words), but I just really hope this thing gets fixed. There are so many people (besides Jaap and Barry) that put a ton of effort into making this thing work. People that are God damn proud of this project and the work they did. And, just some plain old good people. People that take it to heart that pinheads, like themselves, are concerned about the loss of hard earned money. Like I said... GOOD F'ING PEOPLE.

Time for the bull shit! on either side to stop. If in fact the project is dead, stick a fork in it and put it to rest. Otherwise, rally the troops, DP. Keep it simple, whatever (if there's litigation). Just rally the troops. Grabbing at $12.5k is bullsh!T. And you know it.

I only said that because of there is going to be lawsuits pending. Cant imagine the headache it is going to be for American based buyers to work through the court system, if it comes to that.

Oh stop all these comments... dudes!
legal action, going to universal, each individual's opinion on how to run a proper business..getting mediators in?
Its time to look into the mirror, plain and simple, all dudes like me who pre-ordered did this (probably) in full
consciousness. The moment you paid, you were aware that it might have been a non-smart thing to do. (like me)
Now, there is nothing you can do. It is the nature of ''crowd funding''
When money is involved, even the coolest dudes act differently, that is my experience, I never felt I had any rights after my payment. it was ''on the line''
these DP dudes did and do whatever is possible to deliver what they had promised, Im sure.

So please sit back and try to ''relax'' as there is noting else left for all of you.
Going into a law thing makes you only look stupid. it is how it is at this moment and you did take the risk.

BTW, I got my TBL delivered, it plays well, fun but some small issues which i can address myself. now im waiting on decent code.

Please stop all the crap. You may get it one day maybe not, you knew that 3 yrs ago

Aaaandd queue the down-votes.

I did upvote you

There is so much wrong in his post, it doesn't even merit the time it would take to spell it out and reply.

You telling people to chill out about this is like hearing a eunuch tell somebody they shouldn't worry about being kicked in the balls.

image (resized).png

exactly.dudes that enter such a project stand there with their legs wide, they may get kicked.

and they should not whine when it hurts, thats what i try to say

You're a real piece of work. And by work, I mean something else.

like?

You got yours, to hell with the rest of us, eh?

I'm hoping what he is trying to say is getting lost in translation.

noo! cmon I never said that or wish for that. I want all dudes to get their machines, it just doesnt make any difference whether you come up with ''good ideas'' or not

Not worth your energy Greg.

LOL.

I see a commonality of some of the ardent DP supporters. I'll leave it to pinside to draw their own conclusion as to what I think it is...

I think you are mis-reading what I said. I am agreeing with you....as I said multiple times, there is a lot more to this story than any of us know at this point.

the story doenst matter, you paid, youre in the hole, you did that with the risk in mind, now you suffer. Or... you can choose not to suffer and wait and see

Thank you Captain Wisdom. I can't wait for next week's session.

because...after all you and me are so privileged to be able to

Another point to think about. When DP came to ARA with a million+ dollar undertaking and being a startup, do you really think that ARA would just say come on in, we will worry about the money later. For sure they did their research and DP had to play it very open with open books to get it even started-going. 
 
So ARA would only start this whole project knowing they could get paid at the end. However, than you don't held up to your end of the bargain, eg deliver the pins in 2015, but delay and delay and put other customers upfront. This makes DP look bad in our eyes but it also causes to see TBL funds slowly decrease. Still ARA doesn't act so they think they still can be paid. Than june 2016 they recalculate the figures (for a 3rd time: made price in april 2015 and again in may 2015, guessing that the production of the engineering samples in 2015 learned them this) and find out they need more money to make a profit. 
 
They are not looking for ways to decrease costs (speed up building, buying parts in larger quantities to reduce costs, etc), take their responsibility (it's their miscalculation after all) but turn (again) to DP. DP accepts IF they get the TBLs in 2016 out of the door plus additional 50 pcs BoP3. 
 
These Bops are paid by CT and Nitro for sure (no pre ordering after all) and generate profit in order to overcome the price increase from ARA. So DP was reasonable sure to get an income from CT and Nitro. 
 
Than it takes Ara some time to get the invoice out of the shipment of 21 pcs TBL end july, it has a payment term and during the payment term it turns out in october that 1) production TBL is not stepped up and 2) parts for Bop3 have not been ordered (so the needed money to pay for the price-increase will not come). So ARA f*cks with DP again and leaving them hanging. DP than refuses to pay the higher invoice and here we are. Looking at the history of proven unreliability from ARA I can't really blame them. I am even getting the feeling that if they were paid for the 70-90? pcs (dependable if april batch TBL of approx 21 pcs is paid yes-no) ARA would just stop production and leaving 210 buyers without anything. 
 
Even if DP is now short of even the Original agreed amount this is also due to the fact that TBL is overdue like over a year and 3 persons living for a year costs money. This is a year where the delay causes DP to not get fresh money in the door. Who is to blame here? ARA. People will now state DP has done design changes causes the delay and I dare them : point to me where these DESIGNchanges are? Have the ramps moved from left to right? Has the upper playfield become a bottom playfield? Yes, there have been manufactureing changes made by ARA because there original ideas for how to make a reliable rugtoy for instance were proven to be not errorfree. This is a MANUFACTURERchange responsibility ARA, not DP

And yes, we have bought our TBL with DP, not ARA. So we totally shouldnt care if DP or ARA is to blame because from a customer view its always DP. But this is not how it works unfortunately. If a small company has this kind of problems it also becomes the problem of the customer

The above is ofcourse based on stories-newsletters from DP, not on written proof or talks with ARA. So it may be worth nothing or everything.

then rather listen to the above, another one..hope it helps

Hmm . Captain wisdom, sounds great

Im glad you finally get my point . now relax