(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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#4251 2 years ago

Just a thought.... If lawyers do get involved down the line, will Phil be asked to testify?

#4252 2 years ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

Just a thought.... If lawyers do get involved down the line, will Phil be asked to testify?

Oh, hell yes he will.

-3
#4253 2 years ago

DP is dead and they know it

#4254 2 years ago

I noticed that Rensh has not posted in a couple of days.
Wonder where Rensh has gone.
He usually has lots of info to share. He lives in the Netherlands and has had sit down talks with Barry and Jaap.
Wonder if Rensh has some more insight?

#4255 2 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

I noticed that Rensh has not posted in a couple of days.
Wonder where Rensh has gone.
He usually has lots of info to share. He lives in the Netherlands and has had sit down talks with Barry and Jaap.
Wonder if Rensh has some more insight?

I assume he is tired of the negativity. He, and probably a lot of the Dutch pinball scene know Barry/Jaap personally so this is prob hard for them to watch.

However, for everyone else that don't know them personally.. that don't know them to be "good guys" we only have their track record / actions to go on.. which has their reputation in the toilet for the majority of folks.

#4256 2 years ago

RTR:
Your letter is very well written with all the legit questions and I hope for all achievers, that Jonathan gets the answers in a few days.

Best wishes
Roland

10
#4257 2 years ago
Quoted from lamihh:

DP is dead and they know it

DP is not dead dude, just in a self induced coma.

There are games in boxes, parts in boxes, working games in the field, and parties interested in getting the games into the hands of the owners. That's why we are getting the paddles out!

IMG_0746 (resized).JPG

#4258 2 years ago

image (resized).jpeg

33
#4259 2 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

I noticed that Rensh has not posted in a couple of days.
Wonder where Rensh has gone.
He usually has lots of info to share. He lives in the Netherlands and has had sit down talks with Barry and Jaap.
Wonder if Rensh has some more insight?

I am still here and following the topic(s). I have learned (the hard way) that when emotions are involved it is better to give it a few days rest and some good night sleep. Find Rarehero's f*ck here f*ck here very annoying and proof that it is better to calm down first.

What can I say what already not has been said?

Let's work with my common business sense.

I am not their bookkeeper so don't have a real insight on their financial issues just my own common sense of doing business every day. Big question for us all does DP still have money on the bank and if yes, how much?

For sure not enough to refund everybody (money is spent on parts, PR, prototype, living etc; the PR, prototypes and living was supposed to come from the TBLprofit I assume but when refunding there is no profit) so asking a 100% refund for everybody is a no go and sure way to bankruptcy. It's a three person company of which 2 are owners and 1 is programmer. Do you really think they can cough it up? Best case if you wanna go the refund route would be that they split the money what is left over the 150 achievers which didnt get a pin which will be which amount per achiever? Also dont know if thats even possible legally as what happens if ARA says suddenly they accept the original agreed price for the 90 pcs built but than the money is already divided and sent back to the achievers?

Their business-plan must have been based on ARA keeping the contract-promise and make and deliver TBL in 2015. So its like a business transaction salespeople do every day, you purchase something and sell it with a markup big enough to live from and continue your business. In ARA they thought to have found a reliable partner. Heck, when people asked me if I was not afraid doing a pre-order at a startup company like DP of just a few people I always minimized the risk pointing at the big ARA behind DP and now it is ARA is killing them

So now TBL is not generating the required profit, its even dead in the water dependable on legal action yes-no/other CM, they are switching to a backup plan like BOP3. Its either generating new income or eat in further on TBL money. Is this a good plan? Time will tell but for sure its sensitive with us achievers. For me a BOP3 is not appealing but thats just me. I also had never interest in the original BOP. I know that some people have put down a BOP3 deposit at TPF.

Also, if ARA was so sure about their financial rights, why haven't they opened a financial claim against DP? I think the oldest invoice must be sure like >6 months old. In my company invoices older than 3 months I sent to an insurance company which will chase the customer to get the money through a bailiff and force into bankruptcy if we cant work out a payment agreement. However, I have to give them the complete file showing my invoices are correct and corresponding with the contract/order..... They are not spending their time on a case where the customer can easily show the invoices dont correspond with the order. With that in the back of my mind I find it very interesting to see that ARA has not filed a financial claim against DP through a bailiff (at least not that I know of)....

I think that a plan with a mediator is perhaps the best option for now. Can be quicker and cheaper as lawyers. I dont know the business experience of Jonathan and it has to be an experienced, and most of all independent, person as perhaps Jonathan Joosten offers (although I know as boardmember of the Dutch Pinball Association Jonathan can ask and keep asking critical questions so thats a good point for him ) . Independent as coming from outside the pinball-world to avoid claims of subjectivity from ARA (Jonathan is also an achiever to my knowledge). But if all parties agree to Jonathan I wish him all the success in the world and thank him for his time&effort.

I do know however mediation has been tried already (DP told already that several negotiations took place in the newsletter, mediation was 1 of them) but the 3rd person was somebody from the holding above ARA. Objectivity was just not there as this mediator turned out just to follow ARA. So I dont call that a real mediation effort.Explains also my above sentence about having somebody really independent to ALL parties. Dont think that DP didnt try in all this time to work it out with ARA. So a lot of ideas are like, been there, done that.

I also cant get my mind around ARA. What is their goal? If DP ends in bankruptcy they end with like 40-50 already delivered TBLs unpaid plus 40 hostage-pins unpaid. Also its common CM practice that the CM orders the parts, assembles, delivers and than gets paid. I know that the PROCS's have been paid by DP (info from newsletter) but a lot of the parts have been pre-paid by ARA for sure. Now they make a lot of stuff internally so no need to produce 300 pcs but looking at for instance the playfields. They have all 300 been ordered for sure, you dont make playfields per pc as its expensive to setup a robot for making the playfields. So a lot of money is at stake for ARA to. I am guessing >500-600 KUSD easily. So, whats their strategy? Very puzzling. I am afraid it has become something personal for somebody at ARA (made perhaps a big f*ck up in calculation and now wants to point finger at DP trying to safe his job perhaps?) and emotions are bad if you wanna make the right business-decisions.

Look, I understand the anger and feel also something of it myself to. Writing all the above down is like a calming exercise for me. More info is required but if lawyers are (going to be?) involved its common business practice to keep still. So even if DP is willing to share more info they might not be allowed to.

Yes, I do have more inside info as most of you but at the end it all corresponds with the info already given by DP, just more details. Have not seen the contract, not talked with ARA and am not DP bookkeeper. I can only rely on the info told by Jaap & Barry to me (and I also was told the PCB-story). Above post is thus just my PERSONAL thinking.

Regards from a fellow Dutch (so NOT Danish) dude wishing everybody (including DP) the best.

We are the country which is second after Amerika ( see

starting at 40 seconds )
Denmark was 3rd I think

#4260 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I am still here and following the topic(s). I have learned (the hard way) that when emotions are involved it is better to give it a few days rest and some good night sleep. Find Rarehero's f*ck here f*ck here very annoying and proof that it is better to calm down first.
What can I say what already not has been said?
Let's work with my common business sense.
I am not their bookkeeper so don't have a real insight on their financial issues just my own common sense of doing business every day. Big question for us all does DP still have money on the bank and if yes, how much?
For sure not enough to refund everybody (money is spent on parts, PR, prototype, living etc; the PR, prototypes and living was supposed to come from the TBLprofit I assume but when refunding there is no profit) so asking a 100% refund for everybody is a no go and sure way to bankruptcy. It's a three person company of which 2 are owners and 1 is programmer. Do you really think they can cough it up? Best case if you wanna go the refund route would be that they split the money what is left over the 150 achievers which didnt get a pin which will be which amount per achiever? Also dont know if thats even possible legally as what happens if ARA says suddenly they accept the original agreed price for the 90 pcs built but than the money is already divided and sent back to the achievers?
Their business-plan must have been based on ARA keeping the contract-promise and make and deliver TBL in 2015. So its like a business transaction salespeople do every day, you purchase something and sell it with a markup big enough to live from and continue your business. In ARA they thought to have found a reliable partner. Heck, when people asked me if I was not afraid doing a pre-order at a startup company like DP of just a few people I always minimized the risk pointing at the big ARA behind DP and now it is ARA is killing them
So now TBL is not generating the required profit, its even dead in the water dependable on legal action yes-no/other CM, they are switching to a backup plan like BOP3. Its either generating new income or eat in further on TBL money. Is this a good plan? Time will tell but for sure its sensitive with us achievers. For me a BOP3 is not appealing but thats just me. I also had never interest in the original BOP. I know that some people have put down a BOP3 deposit at TPF.
Also, if ARA was so sure about their financial rights, why haven't they opened a financial claim against DP? I think the oldest invoice must be sure like >6 months old. In my company invoices older than 3 months I sent to an insurance company which will chase the customer to get the money through a bailiff and force into bankruptcy if we cant work out a payment agreement. However, I have to give them the complete file showing my invoices are correct and corresponding with the contract/order..... They are not spending their time on a case where the customer can easily show the invoices dont correspond with the order. With that in the back of my mind I find it very interesting to see that ARA has not filed a financial claim against DP through a bailiff (at least not that I know of)....
I think that a plan with a mediator is perhaps the best option for now. Can be quicker and cheaper as lawyers. I dont know the business experience of Jonathan and it has to be an experienced, and most of all independent, person as perhaps Jonathan Joosten offers (although I know as boardmember of the Dutch Pinball Association Jonathan can ask and keep asking critical questions so thats a good point for him ) . Independent as coming from outside the pinball-world to avoid claims of subjectivity from ARA (Jonathan is also an achiever to my knowledge). But if all parties agree to Jonathan I wish him all the success in the world and thank him for his time&effort.
I do know however mediation has been tried already (DP told already that several negotiations took place in the newsletter, mediation was 1 of them) but the 3rd person was somebody from the holding above ARA. Objectivity was just not there as this mediator turned out just to follow ARA. So I dont call that a real mediation effort.Explains also my above sentence about having somebody really independent to ALL parties. Dont think that DP didnt try in all this time to work it out with ARA. So a lot of ideas are like, been there, done that.
I also cant get my mind around ARA. What is their goal? If DP ends in bankruptcy they end with like 40-50 already delivered TBLs unpaid plus 40 hostage-pins unpaid. Also its common CM practice that the CM orders the parts, assembles, delivers and than gets paid. I know that the PROCS's have been paid by DP (info from newsletter) but a lot of the parts have been pre-paid by ARA for sure. Now they make a lot of stuff internally so no need to produce 300 pcs but looking at for instance the playfields. They have all 300 been ordered for sure, you dont make playfields per pc as its expensive to setup a robot for making the playfields. So a lot of money is at stake for ARA to. I am guessing >500-600 KUSD easily. So, whats their strategy? Very puzzling. I am afraid it has become something personal for somebody at ARA (made perhaps a big f*ck up in calculation and now wants to point finger at DP trying to safe his job perhaps?) and emotions are bad if you wanna make the right business-decisions.
Look, I understand the anger and feel also something of it myself to. Writing all the above down is like a calming exercise for me. More info is required but if lawyers are (going to be?) involved its common business practice to keep still. So even if DP is willing to share more info they might not be allowed to.
Yes, I do have more inside info as most of you but at the end it all corresponds with the info already given by DP, just more details. Have not seen the contract, not talked with ARA and am not DP bookkeeper. I can only rely on the info told by Jaap & Barry to me (and I also was told the PCB-story). Above post is thus just my PERSONAL thinking.
Regards from a fellow Dutch (so NOT Danish) dude wishing everybody (including DP) the best.
We are the country which is second after Amerika ( see » YouTube video starting at 40 seconds )
Denmark was 3rd I think

An arbitrator may be a good choice between ARA and Dutch but that only would be worthwhile if Dutch actually has money left to pay what they will owe.
Confidence that Dutch has enough money to pay the manufacturer for the pre-ordered games even at the original manufacturing price is not high in the pinball community.

#4261 2 years ago

Rensh. That is a great insight into the inner workings of Dutch law, thank you.

Everybody needs to remember Rensh is NOT DP, although he is obviously close to them. With that in mind, please don't take your emotions out on him.

#4262 2 years ago

Thanks Rensch. You Danes aren't all that bad.

#4263 2 years ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

Thanks Rensch. You Danes aren't all that bad.

agreed.

Given this insight, and knowing the required time frame for ARA to deliver both all TBL and 50 BOP25th, and that additional TBL funds from non-achievers deposits/not paid in full were locked out from DP until the games were ready to ship, it seems what we are seeing is a perfect sh!t storm.

#4264 2 years ago
Quoted from titanpenguin:

agreed.
Given this insight, and knowing the required time frame for ARA to deliver both all TBL and 50 BOP25th, and that additional TBL funds from non-achievers deposits/not paid in full were locked out from DP until the games were ready to ship, it seems what we are seeing is a perfect sh!t storm.

The only shit storm here is the one DP is trying to drop on ARA. ARA built and delivered fifty games and has since built forty more games that are ready to go, yet can't get their invoices paid. It seems DP has been dodging that portion of their obligation. Why ARA took so long before stopping work might be a bigger mystery. DP has known this day was coming, well it's here now and the smoke is beginning to clear.

#4265 2 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Why ARA took so long before stopping work is a bigger mystery

Bingo

#4266 2 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

The only shit storm here is the one DP is trying to drop on ARA. ARA built and delivered fifty games and has since built forty more games that are ready to go, yet can't get their invoices paid. It seems DP has been dodging that portion of their obligation. Why ARA took so long before stopping work might be a bigger mystery. DP has known this day was coming, well it's here now and the smoke is beginning to clear.

Nice to see we both agree that DP is short on funds based upon expected timetables. Budgeting only goes as far as revenue incoming. After that it becomes debt.

#4267 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

Regards from a fellow Dutch (so NOT Danish) dude wishing everybody (including DP) the best.
We are the country which is second after Amerika ( see » YouTube video starting at 40 seconds )
Denmark was 3rd I think

Good info regarding DP & ARA and great video too! Thanks for sharing Rens.

#4268 2 years ago

Does anyone know if their are any more entities to Dutch Pinball either in the US or the Netherlands? Currently not when Phil was around. Also has anyone have contact info for Phil?

#4269 2 years ago

So where is the link to the seminar? The one that explains how a company can just keep finished goods, inventory and other property like the BoP proto?

#4270 2 years ago

Well I'm just hanging in hoping it turns out like JJP and WOZ .
Everyone gets their games in 5 years.

-2
#4271 2 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

Well I'm just hanging in hoping it turns out like JJP and WOZ .
Everyone gets their games in 5 years.

While I hope everyone gets theirs sooner, I actually feel like this might be worse than jpop and kulek, as these guys are overseas. Just unbelievable.

#4272 2 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

While I hope everyone gets theirs sooner, I actually feel like this might be worse than jpop and kulek, as these guys are overseas. Just unbelievable.

Hard to compare this as Kulek did not have a license, DP does, and JPOP did not have a working game, DP does. Point is each situation is totally different. Again only half a year ago DP had it in the bag, a good 'killer' title, games shipping, and ramping up production. Then money issues with their only and needed partner. The overseas part is in my eyes no issues. I do a lot of work with overseas US, India, all different places. The issue is still communication. Although I live in the Netherlands, that does not mean I can knock each day on their doors. I think that last new letter told the story and there is just no news right now.

#4273 2 years ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

Thanks Rensch. You Danes aren't all that bad.

It's nice to see a Canadian showing some love for the Swedes!

#4274 2 years ago

Thanks Rensh. I don't see the guys walking around in Armani suits with Rolex watches. We do see enough expensive parts to make the games so we have to believe DP is heavily invested in TBL. And it's more logical to understand the BOP SLE was created to leverage the unexpected price increases from ARA. You want a price increase? help me get there by making 50 of these to offset the increase in TBL. Evidence of this is the working prototype ARA is holding. You're not paying your bills on the first game, would someone make a second game? I would say no. So we have indirect proof TBL bills were being paid.
ARA not meeting the production schedule has a lot to do with what is happening now. Look at some of the old video from ARA and see for yourself if they met their own production schedule, or not.
I get the frustration, but lets not let our emotions take over. Let's be logical and find a solution to help DP assemble the parts into 300 games.
And for the record, I did offer to pay extra $ in February since our game is one of the completed games being held at ARA and Jaap turned it down. If this is a money scam, they're bad at it.
DP wants their customers to have their games at the agreed price, and not more. I'm still willing to pay more, let's see what happens. Posting "angry" is not logical, not helping, and works against your own interests at ever getting your game or your money back.
Suing would probably send the project into bankruptcy. You would only get a fraction of your investment and no finished code for the people that already have games.

20
#4275 2 years ago

In the other thread I mentioned I contacted ARA earlier today as my name came up as a potential mediator. Not sure whether I want to be that, and don't think I accepted that role, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to hear ARA's side of the story. Well, I was asked to call again next week as the person I should be talking to is out of his office all week. So I'll call again next week. Apparently patience is key

#4276 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Does anyone know if their are any more entities to Dutch Pinball either in the US or the Netherlands? Currently not when Phil was around. Also has anyone have contact info for Phil?

"Dutch Pinball USA, Inc." was incorporated in Philip Weinberg in the State of Wyoming on 12/31/2013, but the filing status changed from "Active" to "Inactive - Administratively Dissolved (Tax)" on 02/08/2016.

https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?eFNum=141190084199124060157201028180106126092020171249

#4277 2 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

this might be worse than jpop and kulek, as these guys are overseas

I felt that too being dutch and a Jpop aiw buyer.
But to tell you the truth,the ocean inbetween does not matter.
You lose your money regardless of the ocean.
It's not like anybody beat the shit out of Jpop right?

#4278 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

If this is a money scam, they're bad at it.

I don't think anyone is arguing this is a money scam. I think the argument is they severely underestimated the manufacturing costs and/or they mismanaged the pre-order money. Either one is pretty fatal.

I remember reading back in a thread about Classic Playfield Reproductions, how when their business hit a really rocky time, they asked all the principles in the business to plop down their credit cards and take advances/pay using their cards to ride out the storm. I have to believe if the shortfall was simply $1000 per game, that Jaap and Barry could just get a $50K personal loan apiece just to get the games done. I think the future of their business relies on these games shipping in a reasonable amount of time. That they are going to take a "wait and see" approach while more people cancel orders and the relationship continues to sour with the CM is not the approach I would take.

The fact that they announced 150 games at 12,500 apiece leads me to believe the issue is larger than $1000 per game remaining. Obviously, I am speculating, but if they are taking preorders for up to 1.8 million USD on game 2, that, to me, implies that they did not have enough to finish the games at ARA even with NO additional price increase. Couple that with the emphasis on game 2 parts not ordered in their email, and it sounds like they very much were counting on new preorder revenue to finish TBL.

-1
#4279 2 years ago

For those of you saying the profits from BOP 3.0 aren't enough to get the rest of the TBL made, what makes you think so? 25 BOP, $12,500 per machine = $312,500.

250 remaining TBL with $1,000 increase = $250,000. The cost of each BOP to make is probably $2.5K so that's your remaining $62,500. Totally feasible.

11
#4280 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

For those of you saying the profits from BOP 3.0 aren't enough to get the rest of the TBL made, what makes you think so? 25 BOP, $12,500 per machine = $312,500.
250 remaining TBL with $1,000 increase = $250,000. Cointaker and DP split the remaining $62,500 and call it a day. Totally feasible.

The infeasible part is selling that many $12.5k BOP3s.

#4281 2 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

The infeasible part is selling that many $12.5k BOP3s.

If a non working Magic Girl can be sold for $25K then anything is possible. We are only talking about 25 people.

13
#4282 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

For those of you saying the profits from BOP 3.0 aren't enough to get the rest of the TBL made, what makes you think so? 25 BOP, $12,500 per machine = $312,500.

Wow, 100% profit margin. That must be some deal they have with the new CM.

#4283 2 years ago

If someone could possibly make a super bad ass pin like say despicable me with the minions I think a game like that could save TBL or possibly even the world. Just my two cents and still keeping hope alive for my TBL.

#4284 2 years ago
Quoted from boustrophedonic:

Wow, 100% profit margin. That must be some deal they have with the new CM.

It's since been corrected. Totally doable.

#4285 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

For those of you saying the profits from BOP 3.0 aren't enough to get the rest of the TBL made, what makes you think so? 25 BOP, $12,500 per machine = $312,500.
250 remaining TBL with $1,000 increase = $250,000. The cost of each BOP to make is probably $2.5K so that's your remaining $62,500. Totally feasible.

Not sure where you come up with $2.5 K to build BOP 3.0. Good luck with that!

#4286 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

For those of you saying the profits from BOP 3.0 aren't enough to get the rest of the TBL made, what makes you think so? 25 BOP, $12,500 per machine = $312,500.
250 remaining TBL with $1,000 increase = $250,000. The cost of each BOP to make is probably $2.5K so that's your remaining $62,500. Totally feasible.

#4287 2 years ago
Quoted from Toucanf16:

Not sure we can come up with $2.5 K to build BOP 3.0. Good luck with that.

Per machine bro, totally doable.

#4288 2 years ago

If someone can give me the winning lottery numbers I would be glad to step in and save DP and pinball.

#4289 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

Per machine bro, totally doable.

You are assuming 1000 usd per machine frees them.

Also the remaining unbuilt/hostage machines are 240.

#4290 2 years ago

I don't think they would sell 25 of these. Is sounds more like wishful thinking.

Quoted from eggbert52:

For those of you saying the profits from BOP 3.0 aren't enough to get the rest of the TBL made, what makes you think so? 25 BOP, $12,500 per machine = $312,500.
250 remaining TBL with $1,000 increase = $250,000. The cost of each BOP to make is probably $2.5K so that's your remaining $62,500. Totally feasible.

#4291 2 years ago

Just my opinion, but I think BOP 3.0 is kick ass! Maybe not $12.5K fantastic and maybe not for everyone, but I think the graphics are over the top! .
I've already have a Mayuh pimped out BOP 2.0. I hope they sell out ASAP so we can get this show moving!

#4292 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

You are assuming 1000 usd per machine frees them.
Also the remaining unbuilt/hostage machines are 240.

Yes, definitely going on those numbers.

#4293 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

If a non working Magic Girl can be sold for $25K then anything is possible. We are only talking about 25 people.

A non working MG at least physically exists. BOP SLE does not. Just as no one would ever order a game from Jpop again, no one is going to order this.

#4294 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

For those of you saying the profits from BOP 3.0 aren't enough to get the rest of the TBL made, what makes you think so? 25 BOP, $12,500 per machine = $312,500.
250 remaining TBL with $1,000 increase = $250,000. The cost of each BOP to make is probably $2.5K so that's your remaining $62,500. Totally feasible.

And if the amount needed to get this moving again were just 1K per machine, the buyers would have already been hit up for the cash...especially for those already completed. The 1K figure is what DP originally said, but they have also shown they can't be trusted. There is a lot more to this story, and my guess is there is a lot more owed. ARA probably delivered a lot of machines on faith and a promise of money that never came.

#4295 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

A non working MG at least physically exists. BOP SLE does not. Just as no one would ever order a game from Jpop again, no one is going to order this.

Yea, and we've had a non working Magic Girl for what all of a month now?

#4296 2 years ago
Quoted from Manimal:

And if the amount needed to get this moving again were just 1K per machine, the buyers would have already been hit up for the cash

That is 100% pure speculation on your part and you know it.

#4297 2 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

I think the argument is they severely underestimated the manufacturing costs and/or they mismanaged the pre-order money.

Those are they only two scenarios you see? I think you're overlooking the ARA hostage argument.

#4298 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

That is 100% pure speculation on your part and you know it.

Sure it is....I will willingly admit that with no argument. Pretty much this whole thread is speculation. But stand back and look at this from a distance and it makes perfect sense. 1K will not bail these machines out or either ARA or DP would have already went down that road. There is a lot more to this story and you are only hearing one side of this from folks that have already been caught lying to you. How can you trust anything they say?

#4299 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I'll argue that. Money scam indicates a crime is being committed and you have no proof of it. It is complete Pinside speculation how monies are being spent. Comments of such certainty as yours, are simply inflammatory.

I believe he was arguing that this is not a money scam. That it was mismanagement of the money or underestimating the real costs to build.

#4300 2 years ago
Quoted from Manimal:

Sure it is....I will willingly admit that with no argument. Pretty much this whole thread is speculation. But stand back and look at this from a distance and it makes perfect sense. 1K will not bail these machines out or either ARA or DP would have already went down that road. There is a lot more to this story and you are only hearing one side of this from folks that have already been caught lying to you. How can you trust anything they say?

I wish everyone would stop pretending that money is the only issue here.

ARA stood beside DP a year ago and laid out a production schedule that they immediately fell behind on, and got progressively more behind with ... seemingly whilst asking for more money.

Assuming the ARA representative who spoke was not an imposter, there is clearly more at play than you or others are willing to acknowledge.

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