Is that what the upvote is for? Did three other people also really shoot beer out their nose?

Well you got me!!

Actually I wonder if the delusional duo are even aware. John is probably still wondering how fancy the doodle should be on his next NDA. Kevin we are still not sure about. He might be saying "thank you sir may I have another" while being traded for a cigarette. (the suspense is off the charts)

I dont understand this BOP fascination either!!

At this point, there are basically two options for the buyers in the lurch; either trust DP, which is fraught with dubiousness (lol) because of their own unfortunate self-inflicted history, and hope, pray and wait for a pin (which may take multiple years longer because of the current feedback and since there has been no indication otherwise). Or hire a lawyer who will immediately get involved directly, both for buyer's interests and to obtain and report back the true picture. Either way, it's not pretty. In the end, it's a personal choice and from feedback so far here both may be happening.

Sorry, it's a terrible mess, and my condolences to the pre-order people caught in this. IMO, don't blame the PO'd buyers who now want out or a fast resolution. It is DP who is now reaping what they sowed.

Dzoomer - I see 3 options and think #2 is the most practical:

1. As mentioned previously in this thread, the ARA and DP lawyers find the mid-point that is not perfect for either but respects the investments of us as customers. I hate to say this but, having done business in Holland, flexibility is not a top three attribute

2. As buyers, we offer to pay the extra $1000, in an escrow count, payable upon delivery. At this point I am more than willing to do this rather than lose my entire payment. I thin this is the most practical option

3. Universal is brought into the equation by us making this a PR issue for them in such a way that they are motivated to make help resolve this. I would hope that we have someone with PR and/or social networking experience that could help to escalate this.

Interesting considerations, my quick feedback...

#1 has been attempted, appears to be still under attempt, and it may literally take years to come to fruition, if ever. And fwiw, it's basically part of either option I mentioned earlier, as it is expected to be and continue occurring either way. Thx for the feedback on the local history with that.

Imo, #3, Universal is a wild card as it will only be potentially approached by a few, and it is not subject to the two main choices I put forward. How that wild card plays out is wide-open. There have been many legal prognosticators posting here with so many assumptions... I try avoid anything beyond a high level overview. Even at that, I'd expect that such large companies and IP owners of valuable assets would have some sort of basic ethical clause(s) in their licensing contracts for use, so how that plays out could get interesting.

#2 is an option potentially, but only imo if buyers get lawyers involved. DP has already shut down that option as far as they are concerned and it appears buyers will have to force it through a lawyer, so it comes back to one of my two options.

Very sad.

It's standard process for the the CM to own sourcing of parts and funding it... to be paid (with markup) on complete sale to the customer (DP). It's no suprise at all to hear of inventory held up at the manufacturer. Logistics is part of what the CM offers the customer.

The impression I got from listening in person to DP's update at TPF this weekend is that no legal remedies are being actively pursued. Jaap said they met with a lawyer who told them a legal resolution would take many years and would only benefit the lawyers of both parties so they are not pursuing that at this time.

I keep on hearing discussion in this thread of letting DP work out a resolution via legal channels but that's not even being pursued. Am I misinterpreting that or can anyone else who sat in on the DP update at TFP confirm?

Valuable information since you received it firsthand from the company leadership. Did they elaborate beyond what is in the letter about the plan to produce TBL machines with a new contract manufacturer or was the emphasis exclusively on BOP? Thanks for sharing.

The impression I got from the talk is not that they are not going to purse legal options, but that they were advised to wait before rushing into it. Right now what we have is a standoff. Plain and simple. It's down to which party (ARA or DP) can hold out the longest. Makes sense given the push to move forward with BOP 25th.

So the push to announce BOP was a move to try and get ARA moving? Basically a "fine, if you want to sit there, we will move forward on a new project".

Here is a far out idea. I'm in this mess with you all but I was tired of being upset. My sense is that DP and ARA are emotionally pissed with each other, it is personal, and a burnt bridge has occurred. We all have heard the details and that path would likely just lead to legal efforts. My suggestion is to pursue a different pathway. We need a win win for all parties. My proposal is that we get ARA to release the 40+ games and parts through a joint effort on all three parties (ARA, DP, and Achievers). What if we turn this Shi% sandwhich into something positive by contributing cost differences for the 40+ machines to a Charity, e.g. Dutch Cancer Society, Childrens Hospital, or a choice of the CEO in conflict with DP. I would be willing to pay up money. Achievers have to pony up a bit more ($<1000) but get their games, DP ponies up a bit but gets parts for non ARA manufacturing. ARA gets positive publicity from donation effort and good will as a business and a tax write off.

I don't know, you may scoff at this thought but I was tired of being down/depressed and wanted to think of another more positive way. Take a conflict and redirect it to turn it into helping others less fortunate.

So they're going to play chicken with ara? Yeah, that will work out well. This has all the markings of exactly how they handled Phil. They thought they were going to ignore him until they got it completed. It was only after Phil blew it up and forced their hand that he got resolution. Unbelievable.

I am still liking the 3rd party option. Especially if DP and ARA are involved in a pissing contest. So who is Mr. Joosten and how can he help us?

I PM'd DerRoland and asked about Mr. Joosten. I will report back.

Next, I think it might be a good idea to contact ARA. Anyone here speak Dutch?

Lastly, it might not be a bad idea if these things fail, to pony up a few bucks between us all and have a Dutch attorney write a letter for us to both parties.

Again, just my interpretation of what Jaap said (he was talking off of same very basic bullet point slides)

- Build a small amount of (SLE) BOP3.0 machines with the new contract manufacturer
- If that's successful build a larger run of BOP3.0 machines with the same new contract manufacturer
- If that's successful build the TBLs with the same new contract manufacturer

The whole BOP 3.0 thing is pure insanity in my opinion. $12.5 for a BOP? Come on.

That is about the dumbest plan I have ever heard. The part he left out was he will take the loot from the BOP25 scheme and pay ARA what owes so that he CAN take the parts and pay the new CM. Even if this plan worked, it is over year away at best.

I would really appreaciate it if Jaap would stop spending our money on plane tickets to Texas and dumbass personal pinball fantasy projects and redirect it to the project we hired him to do in the first place.

BOP3.0 is a non-starter. The market is so thin that the buyers for this machine are already waiting for resolution from other boutique failures. Pinball is hard, manufacturing is hard and finding solutions to business disagreements is hard. I think the pinball market has run out of 12 grand plus sycophants.

Well, Mr. Jonathan Joosten is the managing editor of the Pinball-Magazine.

He stays in the netherlands, can travel to ARA and DP and understand Dutch.

He earned $$ from all of us for his magazine. Now he can challenge this in the position as a public, well known person.

Would be very nice, if he bring effort and his knowledge in and save the boat.

Is BOP super popular in the Netherlands?

Can someone please pm me the exact part where Dutch pinball directly mislead us and lied about the boards being the issue and why we sat around. Lawyer wants this exact wording and proof and if their was an admission from Jaap if you could pm me this as well cheers Bill

Sorry these Dutch pricks are not going to get away with this no different than jpop or ap. pinball is hard is a cop out. Running a good sound business is not hard and if you think pinball is hard gets you off business is easy then you have another thing coming. Tell the law pinball is hard and see if they care. If you cant run a business properly then don't manufacture anything. If you have to lie to run business then you should never have gone into business in the first place.

I was at the talk at TPF and I'm in on TBL (1,000 with Nitro that I'm asking for a refund for) What I think I heard is the same as a previous poster.

- Jaap said he talked to a lawyer and the lawyer advised him that the only ones who win in situations like these are the lawyers and he advised them to wait it out. So I think Dutch is waiting it out to see if ARA softens their position.

- Jaap said the new company wants to see how they do with a small batch run of BOP and then they will work together to produce more games...more BOP and TBLs.

I'm guessing the BOP price is what it is because Dutch wants to me able to use that to offset the cost of getting the TBLs out and not ask for any more money from people that are paid in full. I hope it works out and they sell enough BOP 3.0s to make it all happen. I think it's a long shot.

Check your emails from Dutch. It's all in there. There's a NSN about board problems, then the email after the ARA email that says it was a cover.

I think that's a fantastic idea. Would
It be possible to organize that many people to get on board with it and present the idea to ARA?

Thanks Rarehero. I did email Jaap/Barry about this idea as well since it would have to involve all parties. I can see how they repsonnd first. I think a fund could be created somehow to donate to. That would be a detail post and agreement on DP and ARA ends. I did not think through details enough but wanted to pitch it if this even had legs. I think turning it to something positive can make all parties feel good, even if not fully satisfied, plus we help people/children that are in bad health.

Yeah I think it's a great idea. Maybe all parties are human enough that a cause helping children would give everyone enough perspective to bury the hatchet and move forward.

We have all seen how JPop & Kevin Kulek have played out(so far anyway), suggesting Jonathon Joosten to act as a neutral party "ambassador" to talk to both sides is an excellent idea. It's a mediation with no lawyers, unconfrontational to both parties involved. It would also be a hell of a story for his next magazine.

I am not part of the this deal, however, as a businessman this is an EXCELLENT idea.

Yeah it's a great idea. In reality a dispute over tens of thousands of dollars probably isn't going to be settled by both parties agreeing to just forget about it and give a bunch of money to charity.

Binding arbitration can only happen if both parties agree to it. At this point, it doesn't seem likely.

I have to agree with you on this one. Never going to happen.

Its a taxable write off for ARA so almost as valuable financially. Dutch doesn't pay into or loose money the stupid over achievers do and who benefits....children that NEED the money. The one caveat I would throw in is Dutch never runs a pinball business again.

Most of the scenarios being discussed are being done under the assumption that DP was being 100% truthful in that presentation. Given past history I wouldn't be so inclined to give them that benefit.

I'm no expert on international tax law. I just don't see how ARA / Dutch can possibly write off tens of thousands of dollars in dispute, and then donate another shitload of money "to the children" and then everything will just work out in the books and everybody will be smiling and 50 Lebowskis will be on the way to their new owners. And this in socialist europe where businesses actually have to pay taxes.

If I buy you all rocket tickets back to planet earth/reality can I write that off as an act of charity and it'll all be a wash?

Thanks for your input Levi. I do not 100% believe that it is a possibility am just trying to make suggestions that might lead to a positive outcome for those actually with a vested interest. I personally don't see BOP 3.0 working out and I don't want to wait 3-5 yrs for lawyers to figure it out. I don't know if you are in on a TBL. Are you? More than willing to hear some other ideas that could actually create a positive outcome.

I'm not in on Lebowski. I have friends who are.

I have no ideas that could actually create a positive outcome. So...good luck my man.

My gut feeling is that eventually this will shake out. It's unlikely 50 finished games are just gonna sit there and rot. But it might be a long time and they might end up asking you for more money. Clearly DutchPB has absolutely zero shame and getting you your game is not their top priority right now.

Now if you'll excuse me I have Bride of Pinbot 3.0 deposit to mail in...

Please tell me whats owing? This is something I don't know. I am under the assumption that a third party would negotiate whats really owing and what it takes to complete and get the games shipped. If Dutch is willing to sign they are never going to operate in this field again for obvious reasons, and ARA receives no cash, part cash, and the tax benefits which would be paid by all those who still need to get their machines then this could possibly speed up the process which you already say will eventually work its way out. In other words get Dutch Pinball the &%$#@%$# out of there. ARA receives most its money in an indirect way (I have used this method before) and they also receive great exposure for doing the right thing and donating to a worthy cause. The people who have to buck up like me, because of the idiots at Dutch pinball, can then choose to sue Dutch Pinball for the money we lost because of their lies and inability to do business and protect their clients while at least feeling good that most or some of the money went to charity. I have no doubt where the issue lies. This also means, and make no mistake about it, most of us over idiot achievers will have to pay far more than 1k, however better than waiting three years and having to pay anyway. I think worth a shot and I will continue on the process suing Dutch pinball. its going to have to happen one way or the other.

Its been brought to my attention Jaap had apologized for the lies and learnt a big life lesson, or something like this, at a conference and during a speech but not in writing. Please if anyone attended and can send me a recording it would be greatly appreciated

Pinball News usually records these seminars and puts them on the web site under the appropriate article. I just checked and they are not up yet. Martin often needs time to post them and complete the articles but eventually they do get posted so keep checking back.

http://www.pinballnews.com/shows/tpf2017/index.html

Good thinking, but you're overlooking some math. Your suggestion requires the 3 parties involved to come up with double the amount to get the games done. The extra costs still need to be paid, plus you are adding the charity funds -> essentially doubling the money required to get everything resolved and donate.

There's not enough money to go around. Adding a charity to the mix, as heartwarming as it sounds, makes no sense.

just stop please

One of us is being rational, and it's not the guy asking Dutch to sign a consent decree that they'll never operate in the pinball industry.

Well if anybody can broker this mega deal to save Lebowski and get some needy Dutch kids some new clogs, it's you. You have my full support!

The Netherlands has universal health coverage. They don't have to hold bake sales or depend on charity to take care of sick children.

Write offs don't offset cash loss/expense on a 1 basis, so they aren't as valuable as the cash itself. ARA is owed money that DP hasn't paid, maybe doesn't have. If we decided to pay it on their behalf in some manner to free the 40 built machines and parts, I am not sure it makes any sense for ARA to be in the Pinball Charity business. This is a neat idea, but not our best idea maybe.

Lastly, tying this into a prevention of DP from engaging in pinball business - however deserving that idea sounds to us all - ain't gonna work. Let your future dollars take care of that one.

I like the ideas of getting Joosten to intervene and see what he can do - the most friendly and least costly. Does he have a business/financial background?

If Joosten doesn't work out, we can pool some resources and find a Dutch lawyer maybe to help sort this out.

Really don't need to, as who would buy from people who lie to your face anyway.

AP hasn't "gotten away" with anything; in fact, they've even helped Magic Girl owners get their units (for better or for worse). AP needs to be left out of the "companies that are fucking up" conversation post haste, especially with their strong showing at TPF.

I think the concept has gone over your head. And please for all those that are in the know,