(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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#4051 2 years ago

Look the BOP deal is pie in the sky.
Even if they get orders there is no way in hell they will get them out quickly.
They didn't even have a prototype. Just an 8 second video of some lights flashing.
TBL they had prototypes and it still took them 2 years to get only 50 out the door!

#4052 2 years ago
Quoted from PinSinner:

You poor buggers with a finished TBL held hostage in a warehouse somewhere should get together and plan a heist. By the sound of that update, I think that will be the only way you're getting hold of your machine in the next 12-18 months. Seriously.

DP-Slicker (resized).jpg

#4053 2 years ago
Quoted from jgentry:

Got to say the tbl talk today was such a load of horse shit. I give Jaap credit for at least coming and giving the bad news but come on. Don't fail 250 people and then harp at them for being negative. The BOP super le is rediculous.

I hope to be able to hear Jaap's presentation. Sounds like it may be infuriating though.

I can say though that it was disappointing to finally receive DP's email today and see no acknowledgement whatsoever contained within it of the support that we've provided them and TBL over the last 3 years. Not to mention the huge $ amount that each "early achiever" has at stake. Other than their version of the debacle with ARA, it was only about keeping THEIR dream alive!

Super.

#4054 2 years ago
Quoted from RyanStl:

What ever happened to Phil?

I was curious to know the same. I did confirm that he is definitely alive (and most likely well).

#4055 2 years ago

Regardless of how the TBL transpires, DP's dream is already over. They may be great at pinball, but they have proven to be shit, tone deaf and dishonest at business. I have a $1000 deposit at CT. It crushes me to give up ( why did it have to be The Dude?!?) but these guys don't deserve the business.

#4056 2 years ago

BTW, I'm glad that some of the other Early Achievers are finally speaking out in agreement on the situation. For awhile, there was only a handful of us expressing frustration and doubt.

I think it's fair to say we've been more than patient, but enough is enough. This is beyond unlawful and if you're banking on BoP to deliver your dream machine, now is the time to finally get realistic. The "it's out of my control" mentality won't fly when you're out $8500 and wondering what to do (or could have done) about it.

Suit yourself, but I think I'm done hanging out on Gilligan's Island.

11
#4057 2 years ago

Jaap just recieved my "Refund or else" letter. I'm happy to vanish and I'll even sell my BOP so they never have to worry about hearing from me ever again concerning code or support issues.

Refund and I vanish from the hobby, basically. Hold my money and game hostage and they will feel my fucking wrath.

#4058 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Refund and I vanish from the hobby

I'm sure your toilet will thank you.

10
#4059 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

they will feel my fucking wrath.

IMG_4101 (resized).JPG

#4060 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Refund and I vanish from the hobby, basically.

It would be sad if you left the hobby, but completely understandable.

#4061 2 years ago

Calls to Universal licensing honchos start this week.

I'll be happy to call Bally as well to let them know what charlatans they've allowed to license their BOP I.P.

Will be weighing my legal options as well.

I would prefer to just get a refund and be done with this garbage hobby forever.

#4062 2 years ago
Quoted from chadderack:

It would be sad if you left the hobby, but completely understandable.

I'll always love pinball but I'm absolutely done with the garbage people that sell
new games. Fuck them all. I don't need them or the drama to enjoy pinball.

#4063 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I'll always love pinball but I'm absolutely done with the garbage people that sell
new games. Fuck them all. I don't need them or the drama to enjoy pinball.

Yeah you are right buddy

#4064 2 years ago

Jaap should have reassured his loyal customers, not present a new pinball.
People have the value of a new car in this..it's no pocketchange

#4065 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

Jaap should have reassured his loyal customers, not present a new pinball.
People have the value of a new car in this..it's no pocketchange

Jaap's gonna have a full inbox and Barry's gonna be like "whaaaat the fuuuuck" when he checks his email

image (resized).jpeg

#4066 2 years ago
Quoted from chadderack:

It would be sad if you left the hobby, but completely understandable.

What would he do with all his spare time? 15K posts on just this forum in 5 years? Rough numbers- 3000 posts/year? That's more than a hobby, it's an addiction. Between DP and wanting to leave the hobby, he may need a therapist.

#4067 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Calls to Universal licensing honchos start this week.
I'll be happy to call Bally as well to let them know what charlatans they've allowed to license their BOP I.P.
Will be weighing my legal options as well.

I think we all need to take a role in being more aggressive if we ever hope to see our money, this is a good place to start. Ive already called my lawyer to figure out my options but havent heard back from him yet. Im guessing Universal wouldnt be happy if theyre greeted to 50-100 angry callers monday morning asking, "WHERES THE MONEY LEBOWSKI?" Maybe we should get more orgainized and starting getting vocal with the people DP does business with, turn this shit into a PR shit storm.

Quoted from highdef:

BTW, I'm glad that some of the other Early Achievers are finally speaking out in agreement on the situation. For awhile, there was only a handful of us expressing frustration and doubt.
I think it's fair to say we've been more than patient, but enough is enough. This is beyond unlawful and if you're banking on BoP to deliver your dream machine, now is the time to finally get realistic. The "it's out of my control" mentality won't fly when you're out $8500 and wondering what to do (or could have done) about it.
Suit yourself, but I think I'm done hanging out on Gilligan's Island.

Tried to be cool about everything hoping that theyd [DP] have our best interest at heart, this announcement lets me know we are literally their last concern. That was a mistake, I shouldve probably been less cool about everything maybe if enough of us had we couldve avoided getting to this point. Youre right, more of us need to be clear that what DP is doing is illegal and theyre acting no different than Skit-B. Theyre literally holding our money hostage while telling us theyre not planning to make our product we paid for to have made, and that we dont get the money back until they decide to make it. I cant think of a 1st world country that this type of behavior is legal in.

#4068 2 years ago
Quoted from Khabbi:

What would he do with all his spare time? 15K posts on just this forum in 5 years? Rough numbers- 3000 posts/year? That's more than a hobby, it's an addiction. Between DP and wanting to leave the hobby, he may need a therapist.

I won't deny that forums are addicting. I think a good number of people here "suffer" from it. I could do A LOT in my spare time. I could ABSOLUTELY be far more productive in my life if I cut this element out of it. I mean, I think you're just joking or trying to take a jab at me...but you're not wrong.

#4069 2 years ago

Quite unbelievable.

Clearly money is gone.

There are far too many companies now trying to get a slice of the pinball pie.

I hope people can get refunded and/or get the 50 games released.

I will never ever pay in advance for a pinball machine as market is saturated.

BOP 2.0 isn't even that great a game - just so unbelievably hard. $12500 for an update with suspect art is just insanity.

-12
#4070 2 years ago

We all knew there would be no refunds after the game went into production. If you want to go after someone, sue ARA not DP.

#4071 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

We all knew there would be no refunds after the game went into production. If you want to go after someone, sue ARA not DP.

you dont just get to make up arbitrary rules that violate the law. Im not sure about the Netherlands specifically but this is point 52 and 53 of the EU Consumer Rights Directive http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32011L0083&qid=1403274218893

52)
In the context of sales contracts, the delivery of goods can take place in various ways, either immediately or at a later date. If the parties have not agreed on a specific delivery date, the trader should deliver the goods as soon as possible, but in any event not later than 30 days from the day of the conclusion of the contract. The rules regarding late delivery should also take into account goods to be manufactured or acquired specially for the consumer which cannot be reused by the trader without considerable loss. Therefore, a rule which grants an additional reasonable period of time to the trader in certain circumstances should be provided for in this Directive. When the trader has failed to deliver the goods within the period of time agreed with the consumer, before the consumer can terminate the contract, the consumer should call upon the trader to make the delivery within a reasonable additional period of time and be entitled to terminate the contract if the trader fails to deliver the goods even within that additional period of time. However, this rule should not apply when the trader has refused to deliver the goods in an unequivocal statement. Neither should it apply in certain circumstances where the delivery period is essential such as, for example, in the case of a wedding dress which should be delivered before the wedding. Nor should it apply in circumstances where the consumer informs the trader that delivery on a specified date is essential. For this purpose, the consumer may use the trader’s contact details given in accordance with this Directive. In these specific cases, if the trader fails to deliver the goods on time, the consumer should be entitled to terminate the contract immediately after the expiry of the delivery period initially agreed. This Directive should be without prejudice to national provisions on the way the consumer should notify the trader of his will to terminate the contract.
(53)
In addition to the consumer’s right to terminate the contract where the trader has failed to fulfil his obligations to deliver the goods in accordance with this Directive, the consumer may, in accordance with the applicable national law, have recourse to other remedies, such as granting the trader an additional period of time for delivery, enforcing the performance of the contract, withholding payment, and seeking damages.

-7
#4073 2 years ago

ARA broke the contract with DP, sue them..Suing DP is about as productive as suing yourself.

#4074 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

ARA broke the contract with DP, sue them..Suing DP is about as productive as suing yourself.

Just to be clear, the goal isnt to sue anyone. The goal is to be given the option for refunds, and to be given those refunds if we ask for them. I didnt have a sales contract with ARA, I had one with DP. Now, im asking to terminate that sales contract and be refunded my purchase price because of Dutch Pinballs inability to deliver their end of the contract. Its a basic consumer right and has nothing to do with ARA.

-1
#4075 2 years ago

if everyone wants money back from DP, what do you think will happen?

sorry but after the disaster with the BOP kits, what did you expect with TBL ?

#4076 2 years ago
Quoted from kapsreiter:

if everyone wants money back from DP, what do you think will happen?
sorry but after the disaster with the BOP kits, what did you expect with TBL ?

if everyone wants their money back from DP isnt that the exact problem? Why should we not be afforded our rights? What do i think will happen to their business? If their business strategy was to make $12,500 B list games that were 25 years old, i dont think me asking for my money back is going to be the thing that folds their business...
also at a time where people are frustrated and looking for solutions, coming in here and basically saying, "youre stupid for buying" isnt helpful constructive criticism it just makes you look like a dick. I always loved the pinball community because as a fringe group we always had a unique way of sticking by each other and helping each other. Over the years thats started to change, and its because of people allowing toxic behavior and statements to slide. Ive had pinheads help me in ways you wouldnt believe and it was one of the things that always drew me to the hobby. I dont know if insulting me makes you feel better about yourself but it certainly doesnt help the community in any way. It def doesnt make me feel good. What good does it do? Next time, instead of saying sorry preemptively, then saying something rude, maybe you could just forgo making the statement.

#4077 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

We all knew there would be no refunds after the game went into production. If you want to go after someone, sue ARA not DP.

The game is in production?

#4078 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

ARA broke the contract with DP, sue them..Suing DP is about as productive as suing yourself.

nobody knows that for sure.

#4079 2 years ago

The BoP 3.0 undoubtedly seems like a case of bad timing, optimistic pricing, and art that (having been influenced by mayuh's work) took the game far too far from its original and loved look.

Still think there are likely to be quite a few people nuts enough to pay that money, though. Even if they were proven insolvent, that wouldn't deter a lot of people ... it hasn't and continues not to with other companies. Pinball is truly a sense free zone, in many ways.

On this note, if they do show us that they've signed a contract with VDL, there's no way a company like that would not do due diligence and request tangible assurances of ability to pay. But as I understand it, they haven't yet signed a contract ...

For me, this will be the acid test.

TBL on the other hand, I think people are being very unrealistic about. *IF* the situation as described by DP is somewhat representative of what has transpired, there's really no easy way out and they and people with money down just have to wait for the legal meanderings to play out.

#4080 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Calls to Universal licensing honchos start this week.
I'll be happy to call Bally as well to let them know what charlatans they've allowed to license their BOP I.P.
Will be weighing my legal options as well.
I would prefer to just get a refund and be done with this garbage hobby forever.

Not sure "burning the house down" is the best option, even in the Post-Dude era of TBL.

#4081 2 years ago

Better Options Part 1

Any better options out there need to start with Jaap and Barry washing down a truth pill with a big glass of truth serum while bathing in a truth fountain and getting a truth enema.

We don't know if ARA broke the contact. We don't know if there is a big unpaid bill at ARA, if DP is out of money (I suspect this is the case, but how bad is it?), we have no idea what the Universal contract looks like, and we sure as hell don't know if DP is even suing ARA or the other way around. So what if they sign a new contract with a new manufacturer? It means NOTHING. You just can't believe anything Jaap says now.

So any possible solutions would need to begin with a trusted 3rd party, preferably someone in the pinball community with an accounting and/or legal background to review DP's books and contracts and then reporting back. Sort of a legal/accounting version of their "Roger Sharpe" moment.

#4082 2 years ago
Quoted from Damon:

... I cant think of a 1st world country that this type of behavior is legal in.

... Denmark! f@ck'em Dude.

ps - I love Denmark, it's probably those Dutch you have to watch for.

PPS - The Dutch are awesome too. I'm eyeballing those Canuks next.

#4083 2 years ago

So I don't know where people think the refund money is going to come from. If they're so broke they can't pony up an additional $1000 per game then they have no money to refund.

It sounds like game #2 revenue was expected to fund game #1 production and that's the real beef; that they can't finish the games with the original collected money.

I am not surprised. Phil indicated that DP had revenue issues. And also they did crazy things like throw big parties and hire lebowski girls etc. for comparison; how many parties and girls did Spooky pinball hire? Oh, none? They just hauled a game to shows and busted their ass to bootstrap a pinball company. Meanwhile DP took a huge amount of preorder money and mismanaged it.

#4084 2 years ago

Let's just be honest.
We all should have gotten out when Phil refunded our money.
Looking back it's truthfully what we should have done.

#4085 2 years ago

Better Options - Part 2

So, assuming DP decides to have a third party come in and verify things for the Early Aggrieved (have to keep a little sense of humor), there could be a couple of options:

Option 1 - Cough up an extra $1000, get the production line rolling again, and receive your game. I am not even sure this is a real option and I would never send a damn dime unless they went through with Part 1.

Option 2 - The findings in Part 1 show that $1000 won't help, but there are enough assets in the company (hostage games, unused parts, BOP project, IP) that another company could purchase DP's assets and make enough money on the unbuilt games to make it worth their while. It gets DP out of the picture and gets a game (that by all accounts, is pretty awesome) into the hands of a real pinball manufacturer. PPS could do it.

#4086 2 years ago

You mean Chicago Gaming or Stern.

#4087 2 years ago

I am pisssed!
BUT.. calling Universal and starting legal proceedings whilst DP are challenging ARA will only lead to bankruptcy.... leaving all of the people half paid and paid in full out of pocket

If ARA hold what Jaap is saying then no DP cannot afford to reproduce the parts/playfields etc.. to make the games.
Then they would have excess stuff if/when they win the court case. With only 300 agreed if everyone complains to universal then of course they will not agree to extend/renew the licence

#4088 2 years ago

DP whilst still alive/ producing gives us a chance of seeing TBL.

Take TBL away, BOP 3.0 and more financial stress WILL only lead to DP's end.

#4089 2 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

You mean Chicago Gaming or Stern.

Yes.

#4090 2 years ago

I'm not on board with the Universal thing either.
I have contacted Barry and asked for a refund.
I just don't understand why they focused their efforts on BOP and not just coming to some agreement with ARA and get the games made. ARA has all parts,boards and cabinets.

#4091 2 years ago

SAy what you will JJP took 5 +years to deliver on WOZ. Jack was in financial trouble until a wealthy backer was found.. if they weren't then jack would be gone aswell with WOZ & Hobbit money.. which was released 2 years AFTER they said it would

#4092 2 years ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

DP whilst still alive/ producing gives us a chance of seeing TBL.
Take TBL away, BOP 3.0 and more financial stress WILL only lead to DP's end.

Suing DP, DP suing ARA, DP having to spend money fighting Universal, etc are all recipes for no TBL. They don't have the money for any of that stuff. They need to work this out with ARA ASAP and without going to court.

Jaap talking about a months or years long legal battle is bullshit. They don't have the money for it and probably don't have the case for it either. They just need to suck it up and work it out, even if they don't like it or they wind up with nothing and become Pinball Pariahs.

#4093 2 years ago

You all have a right to feel upset. There isn't a pile of money laying around for refunds though, as Jaap said.. they have already bought the OEM parts for 300 games.. $100k in PROCs alone sitting at ARA, that they say they can't get at. Which is also why they cant move production elsewhere. So TBL is completely seized up.

So, I know everyone wants different things right now and feelings are raw but feels like the pressure is best applied in getting the situation with ARA moving again.

Agree totally the bop3.0 is totally tone deaf

#4094 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

They just need to suck it up and work it out

That's not how these things work. You can't just say stuff like that and have it magically happen.

If what they say about events that transpired is true, then they clearly were very accommodating and tried to work things out with ARA.

That time is long past.

There's not going to be anything useful that comes of this without legal negotiations and perhaps ultimately a court case. There wouldn't be a situation where ARA are holding games and parts hostage, and DP refusing to pay them if the two parties hadn't completely fallen out.

#4095 2 years ago

DP has to sit down with ARA and hammer out a deal and get TBL finished and out the door!
Why spend time and money on a old game theme. They are basically starting over.
Ordering parts,Building prototypes etc etc.
Easiest road is work it out with ARA !

#4096 2 years ago

Another happy ending

#4097 2 years ago

OH believe me it's not over.

#4098 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

That's not how these things work. You can't just say stuff like that and have it magically happen.
If what they say about events that transpired is true, then they clearly were very accommodating and tried to work things out with ARA.
That time is long past.
There's not going to be anything useful that comes of this without legal negotiations and perhaps ultimately a court case. There wouldn't be a situation where ARA are holding games and parts hostage, and DP refusing to pay them if the two parties hadn't completely fallen out.

This is exactly how these things work out. Businesses, on advice from their attorneys or not, frequently work out things out without going to court. 99.9% of the time. There isn't enough money on the line for either entity for a court battle.

The major problem with your post is this phrase:

"If what they say about events that transpired is true, then they clearly were very accommodating and tried to work things out with ARA."

#4099 2 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

You all have a right to feel upset. There isn't a pile of money laying around for refunds though, as Jaap said.. they have already bought the OEM parts for 300 games.. $100k in PROCs alone sitting at ARA, that they say they can't get at. Which is also why they cant move production elsewhere. So TBL is completely seized up.
So, I know everyone wants different things right now and feelings are raw but feels like the pressure is best applied in getting the situation with ARA moving again.
Agree totally the bop3.0 is totally tone deaf

I am not sure they bought OEM parts for all 300 games, can't go on what Jaap says. I believe they are seized up though and that ARA holds all the cards.

#4100 2 years ago

By "suck it up and work it out" I mean DP will not get everything they want out of the deal, will have to take some lumps, will have to come clean to it's customers, and may even have to sell all or part of their company. They should do this anyway and just stay in the design side. Let others handle 100% of the business side.

But I believe this is salvageable if they start doing the right things.

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