Oh I want to buy it. Did you have an ad listed?

Who wants #56!? Sitting there at ARA since Sept! Who wants to take the gamble? I'm over it.

how much?

I'll trade you for 161 ;-p

Rensh,

Can you investigate my question, please? Does DP have enough funds to pay for all preordered games? Other than $1k@ in dispute, do they have the money or was it spent getting them to this point? Other questions are important but I hope you can see to asking about and reporting back. You can size people up pretty good, so feel you are the best one to ask.

This is exactly how I feel. To me, it seems that DP is more worried about a stupid re-make of perfectly fine BOP, than taking care of it's customers who have paid them in full. It sounds like The only reason why we do not have our games is because ARA was delayed. (news flash: Everybody who manufacture pinball machines are delayed, again and again)

Now they are gambling with our money and moving on to the next thing in the meantime? I get that there is not a lot that DP can do for us now, after going down this road, but it was Dutch and only Dutch that decided Court was the only option here. So for me, and probably many other pre-order customers, it feels like they have neglected us and only thought about their own future. I am not sure that this was such a smart move.

1. Who will buy from them at this stage?
2. BOB 25 years sounds like a really, really bad idea in the first place. How many bop fans can there be out there who did not already buy the bop 2.0 kit and still would like to pay 12500 for new one?

Either way, this sucks, big time!!

Tough question.

Let's state this: in all my talks with mainly Barry and some Jaap I never had the feeling that they were not capable of paying the original agreed pricing.

I know next question would be if the buyers would pay the extra money would it free the TBL? Again tough question: Ara has proven to be a partner not to be trusted. So suppose they take the extra money for the already built TBLs and thus cash in on 90 machines and than start stalling again or again put in extra conditions? Now there is some pressure against ARA as they have a lot of cash invested in the 90 machines and for sure would like to see a ROI. Their shareholders can't be happy with the way their director is handling this case allthough I know they have stand by him till now. I would see this only working if everybody would agree, signed renewed contract by ARA with penalty clause of not produced within an agreed acceptable timeframe and the holding company above it, and all the extra money is given to an independent person who will only pay out to Ara AFTER delivery of ALL 300 machines. If project still fails this independent person gives money back to the buyers. Perhaps even wiser that on top a certain percentage of the original sum is also with this person. This would motivate ARA even more to really quickly produce TBL and in case it still fails there is more money to divide over the customers who didn't get a machine.

Next question could also be that DP has to cough up the extra money as after all it's their responsibility. This would be 300K+ and considering DP is a 2person company plus 1 programmer I think that's a step to far. Yes, Barry and Jaap had money at the start for sure but proto's, engineering samples, living over a year longer as the original agreed timeframe without an income, this is costly and must have eaten into this sum. I think this also because DP combined the agreement to paying extra with the condition of producing 50 BoP25. I think the profit of the 50 BoP were supposed to cover the loss on TBL.

But, for the record, I am NOT their bookkeeper and NEVER had a look at their books and saving accounts either. This is purely MY personal human feeling and (I think ) logical thinking.

Hope this helps.

1m23en (resized).jpg

But DP said they already agreed to the increase, so the $1000 is not the issue. The issue, per DP's statement, is that the production wasn't being ramped up fast enough and they had not ordered parts for BofP. This begs two questions. First, why would you want to deal with ARA for the second game given how difficult they have been to work with on the first. Unless there is some sort of exclusivity clause in the contract with ARA, you'd think DP would want nothing to do with them. This exclusivity clause with ARA seems unlikely. The second question is why the necessity of speeding up production? This second question does tend to lend credence to RareHero's assertion that the license is about to expire. And here, (obviously, pure speculation on my part), is where I can get to a reasonable basis for the lawsuit. DP needs games made by X. If not, they lose the license and suffer financial impact. Therefore, DP agrees to pay the extra $1000 with the quid pro quo being that the games must be finished by X. ARA says you need to pay the extra grand for the 40 sitting here first, then we will ramp up. DP has no confidence in ARA so they say, start the ramp up and once we are convinced you will make the date, we will give you the $. So, here we are at a stalemate. Both sides make a plausible case and the contract is ambiguous since it did not anticipate hitting the license deadline.

Of course, this is wild speculation on my part so I'm sure I'm way off base.

whoops, confusion post so i edit

DP-Slicker (resized).jpg

Man,this is derailing fast..
I bought an old getaway2 yesterday with battery damage for 700 bucks.
It felt great to buy a cheapo again to tinker with..like i always used to.
Been soldering lm339's today and was smiling through the entire process..
All that stress for a pinball machine at crazy prices..
It's not funny anymore.

I am far from impressed!

We, the early achievers who's money helped start DP, and now we are told that they are moving CM, but not putting TBL first! Instead moving to a second game..

I know ARA is apparently holding parts to ransom and so to remake all parts would be costly.. but to just let us sit here with no option to get our games... poor business decision

Without knowing DP's financial position, their decision might have been ok. If they have all preorder funds, they could and should await legal arbitration. Once the matter is settled, get those games shipping. In the meantime they SHOULD continue coding and fixing mechanical issues with TBL.

My common sense tells me otherwise, they don't have the preorder money and have eaten a hole of about $300k - $400k. That is why the push to sell BOP2 @ 2 x $value. A Ponzi scheme, no matter how well intentioned is never the right answer. Dutch Pinball had burned through TBL cash for BOP2 project, according to Phil, immediately preceding phil-gate. So there might be another $100k - $200k needed to fill that hole. Presuming Dutch Pinball doesn't have the money, there is no TBL. They are bankrupted / insolvent.

Unless Barry / Japp come forward with some documentation of money sitting in the bank, not many will believe anything they say. I don't mean to be stirring things but I see no hope of anyone else receiving their games. Everything is f@cked, Dude! Sorry to those with money lost. BTW if DP is someday outed as being $400k - $600k in the hole, that is gross mismanagement and deception. I have no direct knowledge of any misdoings, but am putting the pieces in place.

Good luck.

IMG_0042 (resized).JPG

You poor buggers with a finished TBL held hostage in a warehouse somewhere should get together and plan a heist. By the sound of that update, I think that will be the only way you're getting hold of your machine in the next 12-18 months. Seriously.

So DP "Do get the money" when the distributor forwards it to them. Fuck DP.

if DP made a deal with ARA that was exclusive; then they really have no clue about business at all. if they didn't and they have decided to make another machine before TBL is delivered to those who have paid up - then they really have no clue about business at all. Only a total loon would give these jokers any money.

I can support this statement. My last (4th) payment actually went to Cointaker, which was then forwarded onto DP.

wonder if Phil was hinting at a remake of BOP when he said the next game would be "back to the future"
I'm still behind DP, sounds like they tried everything to work it out. Hopefully, the case will go our way and the games will be released soon.

I think he was literally speaking of the movies, because he commented about his idea to track the speed of the ball to hit 88 miles per hour or something. Possibly a license they chased but didn't get, or maybe they do have it.

Are you suggesting there has been preferential transfers while the company was insolvent? That would suggest an involuntary BK proceeding initiated by DP's creditor pre-buyers.

Oh, wait, this is Denmark, not the US. What have the Danish attorneys suggested?

its holland.

Shh, I'm with Sadsack, let's hear from the Danish lawyers!

I just want $8500, what I have into it.

Ug, this was the exact opposite of what I needed to hear. So they are going to make and ship a brand new game before they make and ship the other 250 games that are basically paid for? Great plan.

It took 3 years to get 50 out, how long for the next 250?

I was SO excited to get in on this, but finally requested a refund from CT. For all you dudes playing the long game, another spot should be opening up shortly. Hang in there early achievers, I'm sure it will be worth it in the end.

Sad face.

Don't be so sure.

Thanks - you bet and will do!

(Stated while wondering if I realistically have any other choice.)

Looks like DP is takin a page out of the JPop playbook. Tease a lil, drag feet, oh look at this other machine, pinball is hard.........

So much drama, so sorry to hear guys.

250$ for a 20$ translite whoo pee!!

BOP stands for Big Labowski Outta Production

Those BOP games will never be made.

I see two choices. Everyone in cough up the extra dough get your games. Or waste much more on the lawyers and get little to nothing but make a couple jackoffs lives hard.

Should be a poll vote. ??

Or ... you guys are not thinking outside the box enough. Texas the land of very strict laws and full gun racks!!

Actually, that would be "BLOP".

Any one have a video of Jaap's seminar at TPF? Other then the 3 minute clip of BOP (Big Over Priced)

Did anyone listen to DP at TPF? I caught the tail end and swore he said he has no replacement parts available and no parts to build more TBL's...

The more I think about everything that transpired today, the more mad i get. When all of this ARA stuff was uncovered, Jaap and Barry said "trust us." Well I dont trust DP anymore after this announcement and if they refuse to refund me my money, was there ever any reason to "trust" them in the first place? I did trust them, the first time when i sent them over 8k, 3 years later the trust is gone. Theyve lied to us and only been transparent when they absolutely had to be. What reason after all this do we have to "trust" them any longer? How much more stuff is going on that we dont know about? Im going to call DLA Piper first thing monday morning and find out exactly what "early achiever" consumer rights are in Holland, and after that, if we are in a good place legally, it may be a good idea to have them send out a letter threatening legal action if we arent given an option of refunds.

I'm an early achiever.

I in one hand get paying the extra 1k to get games going and also understand how that could come up to bite us in the end too.

Personally, I'm not willing to expend another 1k+ to get the game I have, not because I can't, but because I won't.

Sure I'm displeased with the situation overall (no production planned yet a new game release).

Am I the only one who thinks if you are not in on the game (early achiever or atleast a deposit with CT) maybe you should keep you opinion/suggestion to yourself as to whether WE buyers should fork over an extra 1k? You really have no skin in the game here.

No, but I'm sure the next big update will be announced at Expo in October. We should sign each other's yearbook now and write "see you next year."

You are ignoring the high probability that ... the money's gone, Lebowski. What if statements by ARA are true and they are owed for previous games shipped plus these AND there are no funds? Now you would be one lucky Irishman to get yours shipped for $1k additional. The reality is more close to - $6k still owed for a prebuilt game plus the extra $1k plus $7k for someone else's game that shipped and which ARA wasn't paid. That's right, your share comes out to $14k to receive your game. I can see a lot of people balking at that price. Those pre-built games will likely never ship, imho. Put a fork in TBL, they're done.

Well fuck, looks like I got the ringer dude.

ringer (resized).jpg

What ever happened to Phil?

All I see is lots of hyperbole and again, do you have any skin in this process? If not, save your .02 man

The $12,500 USD BOP is a Hail Mary. A $6500-8000 BOP might have been taken seriously given the pricing of the MMr and AFMr. But this is total bullshit.

I don't care who they signed a tentative contract with and what the fuck they make. I don't care if they make fucking space shuttles. There won't be 50 dumb motherfuckers that buy a $12,500, 1991, 26th ranked, BOP to bail DP out on TBL. You could buy virtually any top ten HEP restored pin for that kind of money. And get it tomorrow. Don't get me wrong. I hope 50 people line up and buy this pipe dream so that I can get delivery of my TBL, but it ain't gonna happen.

Rensh and others, who are good pinsiders, but are acting as apologists for DP, please reconsider your stance on this unless you have some actual information to share. Actual information would be a copy of the fucking ARA contract or emails that show ARA actually acted in the manner that DP has described. I would LOVE to change my mind about this based on actual information.

So far all we have been hearing is what DP has been saying about ARA. I am sure ARA has a side to this story as well and I bet that ARA is probably pretty sure they will prevail. They have been a CM for a while and this was DP's first real go at it.

DP left out a couple of important milestones in their last newsletter - the part about them lying about the board issue while we were getting FUCKED would be a pretty important part of the fucking timeline. They have never been straight up about their delays and have flat out lied several times. We (especially me) have given them multiple passes. So someone, anyone, tell me why I should give a FUCK about how they describe the current situation?

The best thing DP could do at this juncture is to sell 100% of their interests/IP in the BOP and TBL projects to a company that can take the ball over the goal line and get this shit done. And they should get the fuck out of pinball manufacturing.

There might be in Denmark...Umm The Netherlands.

Got to say the tbl talk today was such a load of horse shit. I give Jaap credit for at least coming and giving the bad news but come on. Don't fail 250 people and then harp at them for being negative. The BOP super le is rediculous. Anyone that pays that much money for an old game that's not even that great from a company that might be bankrupt at any minute deserves a soccer kick to the nuts. That game should be $6500 tops. It's complete desperation at this point and even if they do get some made it doesn't mean tbl ever will be completed. What a complete dumpster fire. Terribly sorry for all of the people without games.