(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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#3951 2 years ago

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#3952 2 years ago

This is unbelievable - It basically says to TBL pre-order customers - too bad - we are moving on in the meantime - Wow- Who runs a business this way. Who, in their right mind would put a deposit down for anything they do until they get this right - i don't care who did what to whom?

See the following message from DP:

Today, Jaap will give a presentation at the Texas Pinball Festival about the status of The Big Lebowski™ Pinball and the future plans of Dutch Pinball. As you know, our Contract Manufacturer ARA stopped the production of TBL because of a dispute. We will recap what happened:

April 2015
ARA and DP signed a contract that says that DP will buy 300 TBLs from ARA, delivered between April and October 2015.

May 2015
ARA informs DP that the agreed price is too low because the cost price is higher than estimated. DP agrees with the new price.

April 2016
First shipment of TBL.

June 2016
ARA informs DP that the agreed price is too low because the cost price is higher than estimated (again). This time, ARA demands over €1.000 extra per TBL. After several negotiations, DP agrees with this new price, but only under the condition that ARA seriously speeds up production and delivers 300 TBL plus 50 units of our second title: Bride of Pinbot 25th anniversary, before December 31, 2016.

October 2016
DP finds out that ARA has not ordered a single part for the 50 BoP25s. When DP confronts ARA with this, ARA insists on the higher price. DP refuses to pay this price since the condition will not be realized. ARA announces production stop of TBL.

Nov 2016 – Feb 2017
Several negotiations between ARA and DP but no solution.

March 2017
Radio silence between ARA and DP.

The production of TBL has stopped. ARA has about 40 games ready to ship. ARA still has a lot of parts in the factory to build the 300 TBLs including P3ROCs that are paid by DP (over $100.000). DP paid ARA a lot of money for engineering, prototypes and engineering samples.

We now are in the situation that our attorney talks to their attorney and this will probably take months/years. The production of TBL has stopped until the attorneys come up with a solution that both parties agree on.

We have several options:
1 – Start a legal procedure and wait.
2 – Give up.
3 – Find an alternative Contract Manufacturer to produce TBL and/or BoP25.

First of all: we won’t give up! We will not let anyone take away our dream: bring fun to the (pinball)world!

... and we want it Dude. That’s why we won’t be sitting on our hands, waiting for the attorney to do his job. We want to move on and live our dream: bring fun to the (pinball)world. That’s why we talked to several potential Contract Manufacturers and it looks like we will do business with the VDL Group. A very big Dutch company that produces a.o. BMW cars in The Netherlands. They are very interested in starting the project but they suggest to start on a smaller scale. We have planned to build a series of max.150 units of The Bride of Pinbot 25th Anniversary Super Limited Edition, 100 for the USA and 50 for the rest of the World. If all goes well, we will start building a regular version of BoP25, to be build by VDL. If in the meantime, we come to an agreement with ARA, we can start building TBL as soon as possible, time will tell.

Today we started selling BoP25 in the US and Canada via Cointaker and Nitro Amusements. The price will be $12,500 and they will not take pre-orders. If you are interested, you can reserve your spot for $250 and you will receive a translite. The rest of the payment will be right before the game ships. Please understand that DP has no down payments from Cointaker nor Nitro Amusements and we will keep it like that.

We have acquired the license from PPS and we are finalizing the artwork of the cabinet, we already have approval for the artwork of the translite and the playfield. This is how they look like:

10
#3953 2 years ago

Hey Dutch Pinball

You suck

Fondly

Your preorder customers.

#3954 2 years ago

So basically they are selling translites for $250. Unfortunately they seem useless in a regular BoP (or 2.0), else I might even be interested

#3955 2 years ago

At $12,500, VDL better have other business and activity to fall back on. I foresee crickets and paper airplanes.

#3956 2 years ago

I think they have been to too many cafes in Amsterdam and eaten all the hash cookies

#3957 2 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

At $12,500, VDL better have other business and activity to fall back on. I foresee crickets and paper airplanes.

Apparently, they also manufacture cars.

#3958 2 years ago
Quoted from Hjbondar:

That’s why we won’t be sitting on our hands, waiting for the attorney to do his job. We want to move on and live our dream: bring fun to the (pinball)world. That’s why we talked to several potential Contract Manufacturers and it looks like we will do business with the VDL Group. A very big Dutch company that produces a.o. BMW cars in The Netherlands. They are very interested in starting the project but they suggest to start on a smaller scale. We have planned to build a series of max.150 units of The Bride of Pinbot 25th Anniversary Super Limited Edition, 100 for the USA and 50 for the rest of the World. If all goes well, we will start building a regular version of BoP25, to be build by VDL. If in the meantime, we come to an agreement with ARA, we can start building TBL as soon as possible, time will tell.

Quoted from Hjbondar:

We now are in the situation that our attorney talks to their attorney and this will probably take months/years.

Wow. Unbelievable. I truly feel for tbl buyers.

#3959 2 years ago
Quoted from mgpasman:

Apparently, they also manufacture cars.

I caught that part and they will need to continue doing so. This title won't be moving the line(s).

#3960 2 years ago

This is nuts 12.5 for and BOP they really must be hurting

#3961 2 years ago

I wonder, would any of the TBL buyers be willing to pay the €1000 and free their machine?

#3962 2 years ago

I have a preorder if anybody is interested.

#3963 2 years ago

Well, they have giant Dutch balls, you gotta admit that!

#3964 2 years ago
Quoted from mgpasman:

I wonder, would any of the TBL buyers be willing to pay the €1000 and free their machine?

DP has run out of money. They should be the ones coughing up the difference to serve their customers while they work out their legal battle. How did this become our problem?

We are really f*cked if DP loses this fight in court.

#3965 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Well, they have giant Dutch balls, you gotta admit that!

Well they do, coming up there in person to tell this story in front of an audience of duped TBL buyers. And taking orders for the next title at the same time.

#3966 2 years ago

#3967 2 years ago

VDL group is a very big company wth a total turnover over the whole group over a billion dollars. They do built also the Mini's from BMW.

If they wanna do this they have the resources to make it happen.

#3968 2 years ago

My game is #62 and it is part of the group of finished machines that are being held hostage. I filled out all the paperwork to have it air shipped to Alaska. It was sooo close to making it out of the Netherlands!

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#3969 2 years ago
Quoted from LITZ:

My game is #62 and it is part of the group of finished machines that are being held hostage. I filled out all the paperwork to have it air shipped to AK. It was sooo close to making it out of the Netherlands!

I have good news my man.

They will never give up.

#3970 2 years ago
Quoted from mgpasman:

I wonder, would any of the TBL buyers be willing to pay the €1000 and free their machine?

At this point, yes. I know it's sitting there. If that gets it to me, so be it. Otherwise, I want out.

12
#3971 2 years ago
Quoted from Hjbondar:

That’s why we talked to several potential Contract Manufacturers and it looks like we will do business with the VDL Group. A very big Dutch company that produces a.o. BMW cars in The Netherlands. They are very interested in starting the project but they suggest to start on a smaller scale. We have planned to build a series of max.150 units of The Bride of Pinbot 25th Anniversary Super Limited Edition, 100 for the USA and 50 for the rest of the World. If all goes well, we will start building a regular version of BoP25, to be build by VDL. If in the meantime, we come to an agreement with ARA, we can start building TBL as soon as possible, time will tell.

This is f***ing BS. If they're going to a new mfg, the FIRST THING they should be building is Lebowski!!!!
(edited by mod team)

#3972 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

At this point, yes. I know it's sitting there. If that gets it to me, so be it. Otherwise, I want out.

Yep. I am #61. If given the option to pay the extra 1K to get it shipped I would. It wouldn't feel good, but it is not as bad as losing 8.5K.

#3973 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

This is f***ing BS. If they're going to a new mfg, the FIRST THING they should be building is Lebowski!!!!
(edited by mod team)

Does anyone know why this isnt the case? It would seem from just a logical standpoint that if they got/get a new CM the first games they would make are the games owed and not a new set of games. There may be some logical reason as to why they wouldnt make TBL and instead theyre making BoP 3.0 but i guess im just not getting it. I gotta say, ive tried to be supportive and understanding through this whole process but this is the type of money people get murdered over

#3974 2 years ago

They say they aren't taking preorders. This is just selling translights because that is all you will get. And BOP for 12.5k is ridiculous!
The whole boutique pinball business is fucked. Give me a 400 dollar EM, I could fill a whole gameroom with good used games for 12.5k!!! Easy!!! What a crock, these guys shouldn't even show there faces at TPF! I would tell them to bite me!!!

And why would I pay 12.5k for a BOP when the $2900 beater TAF is a better game anyway and the nice $1400 Space Shuttle is probably even a better game too! Shaking my Head at this whole thing!

#3975 2 years ago

They probably don't own the mechs or have access to the parts supply that they already bought to build TBLs.

This whole thing is a clusterfuck.

They should offer to suck it up and let people pay the extra 1000 euros or process refunds. Most would probably pay to get their game.

Sorry to all involved. This is going to take quite a long time to resolve.

#3976 2 years ago

I'm pretty sure that all the TBL parts still sit with ARA and it may not be possible to get them out there legally, in order to build the machines elsewhere.

#3977 2 years ago

They are probably hoping to iron it out through lawyers with ARA.
ARA has them by the balls because they have the machines and all the parts to build the machines.
Would seem the easier route. The infrastructure is in place with ARA.
Whether that ever happens?

#3978 2 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

They are probably hoping to iron it out through lawyers with ARA.
ARA has them by the balls because they have the machines and all the parts to build the machines.
Would seem the easier route. The infrastructure is in place with ARA.
Whether that ever happens?

Or this could all be a scam setting buyers up to pay the extra $$$ all the while making them feel lucky to do so!

#3979 2 years ago
Quoted from homebrood:

Or this could all be a scam setting buyers up to pay the extra $$$ all the while making them feel lucky to do so!

Really?? Man, the phantasy of some people, unbelievable.

#3980 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I have good news my man.
They will never give up.

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#3981 2 years ago

They really believe there are 150 people that are going to pay 12,500 for a bride of pinbot? Yeah I mean that just doesn't make sense to me from what I know of the market. I mean you probably couldn't get one of the existing built lebowskis for that much and there are only like 50 of those.

They are in deep shit.

#3982 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

Really?? Man, the phantasy of some people, unbelievable.

Did you follow Magic Girl-gate? Of dichter bij huis, MMR-gate?

#3983 2 years ago

At this point maybe the remaining 250 TBL buyers need to think about ponying up some money for legal counsel and starting a class action ala magic girl. If i remember correctly there were about 20 of them and it cost them about 8k a piece or so (if any of the MG guys are in myabe they could chime in) Seems like a lot, but i believe hiring lawyers is what finally got them their game. If theyre unwilling to make our game, and unwilling to give refunds, i dont see another solution. Waiting for some indeterminate amount of time while being force to pay in full for a item that may or may not come, while simultaniously being told its not currently being worked and no refunds on isnt really a viable solution

#3984 2 years ago

So if I have this right. If the new CM ends up building the TBL.
We will get this:
A Mini Big Lebowski!

image (resized).jpeg

#3985 2 years ago
Quoted from mgpasman:

Did you follow Magic Girl-gate? Of dichter bij huis, MMR-gate?

Yeah, I would make myself an outcast in the pinball community, destroying a lot goodwill (needed for startups more than else), upsetting everybody, stopping production and thus not getting the money from the TBLs ordered by CT and Nitro, etc to make a usd 1000 extra. Yeah, you are right, I see it now

Come on Maurice, you know Barry and Jaap. If you really think they are capable of doing such a scam I suggest you sell your BoP2.0. I would at least not wanna be associated with people doing something like this.

#3986 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

This is f***ing BS. If they're going to a new mfg, the FIRST THING they should be building is Lebowski!!!!
(edited by mod team)

You know as well as anyone that simply isn't possible, or would risk their total ruination if they don't have a legal end in sight, either by agreement reached between the two parties' lawyers (ARA / DP) or a court judgement.

Quoted from Hjbondar:

This is unbelievable - It basically says to TBL pre-order customers - too bad - we are moving on in the meantime - Wow- Who runs a business this way.

Anyone of sound mind. It could take another 2 weeks or 2 years for the legal wrangling to shake out.

Quoted from mgpasman:

I wonder, would any of the TBL buyers be willing to pay the €1000 and free their machine?

This has been gone over many times. It just isn't going to happen. Either DP paying or customers paying.

-----

The situation sucks, and I'd never consider paying $12,500 for a pinball machine, let alone what it'll cost after tax in EU. Many will though, I'm sure. But let's not continue to pretend there are fantasy land solutions to this.

VDL, if they do sign a contract, is definitely good news. They're a big, capable company.

They produce various BMW Mini cars on contract, at a former Mitsubishi factory which they acquired, and will probably exceed the production of the Oxford plant, in a few years time.

Previously they were primarily makers of buses.

From Wikipedia:

"The bus and coach division consists of coaches, public transport buses, chassis modules, second-hand buses and mini & midi buses. The finished products sector is extensive: suspension systems for the automotive industry, production automation systems, heating, cooling and air-technical systems, systems for the oil, gas and petrochemical industry, sunbeds and roof boxes, container handling equipment, systems for the agricultural sector, cigar-making and packaging machines, production systems for optical media and medical systems."

They had revenue of €2.54Bn in 2014, and over 10,000 employees.

#3987 2 years ago

If the 7-11 on the NE corner of Parkwood & Gaylord runs out of eggs, There's a Target about a block further East that has plenty.

#3988 2 years ago
Quoted from Damon:

Does anyone know why this isnt the case? It would seem from just a logical standpoint that if they got/get a new CM the first games they would make are the games owed and not a new set of games. There may be some logical reason as to why they wouldnt make TBL and instead theyre making BoP 3.0 but i guess im just not getting it. I gotta say, ive tried to be supportive and understanding through this whole process but this is the type of money people get murdered over

They can't just tear up the contract with ARA. There needs to be an agreement after arbitration or court judgement.

#3989 2 years ago

I'd think that at some point, ARA would want this resolved because they've spent money on parts and the assembled machines that are being held hostage. Both sides should be motivated to resolve. Key word, should.

#3990 2 years ago

"months or years" for a solution ?

#3991 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

Yeah, I would make myself an outcast in the pinball community, destroying a lot goodwill (needed for startups more than else), upsetting everybody, stopping production and thus not getting the money from the TBLs ordered by CT and Nitro, etc to make a usd 1000 extra. Yeah, you are right, I see it now
Come on Maurice, you know Barry and Jaap. If you really think they are capable of doing such a scam I suggest you sell your BoP2.0. I would at least not wanna be associated with people doing something like this.

Hey Rens, don't get me wrong. I most certainly don't think Barry and Jaap are setting this up, neither am I selling my BoP 2.0

I do however understand that people who have money in, have fears. I do not call that a rich fantasy, given recent history. I understand their sentiment.

#3992 2 years ago

I'm looking at the bright side...my TBL (should it ever be built) at the rate we're going, will be shipped to a house that currently exists on paper that my wife and I are several years away from building. At least I won't have to move it.

/Sarcasm off/

#3993 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

This is f***ing BS. If they're going to a new mfg, the FIRST THING they should be building is Lebowski!!!!
(edited by mod team)

All this anger while on the toilet, be carefull.

The contract with ARA probably states that they are the sole manufacturer allowed to build. If DP builds them (and they want to), elsewhere, then they would be breaching the contract too, and then it really could be over .. DP wants to carry on, hold on to the delivery, not bleed dry before their first 300 games are delivered..

The wait has been killing, but it looks like it could still be longer..

So , kill it now, no one gets Jack.. or try to keep it alive.. what would you do?

#3994 2 years ago
Quoted from steigerpijp:

The contract with ARA probably states that they are the sole manufacturer allowed to build. If DP builds them (and they want to), elsewhere, then they would be breaching the contract too, and then it really could be over .. DP wants to carry on, hold on to the delivery,

This makes a lot of sense, didnt think of that, thank you for clarifying

#3995 2 years ago

Guys...I'm on the preorder myself, noted my game destroyed before delivery as the freight truck was involved in an accident totaling my game. I may be naive here, but if ARA is holding 40 games hostage from being shipped...I would think all of the parts for building the remaining games are also being held hostage. It's not like they can move the parts and have VDL complete the remaining games. From what I just read from Jaap's email...there is hundreds of thousands of dollars ARA had taken from DP along with holding 100's of thousands in built games, parts etc,...until DP hands over ransom money to start production again. As I know DP hasn't resolved nor been transparent with the truth up till now as they should have, but with the truth now coming out it seems ARA is really the one screwing us all.

I hope when Jaap speaks, tough questions will be answered. Obviously having to wait years for a dispute to be settled would'nt be acceptable by any means. But if that is the case i would hope that DP would notify pre order buyers with the option: to be refunded in full or pay ARA the ransom amount they're asking for to have their game built and shipped. If DP see's a resolution in the next few months...and it's a positive one, I'll be patient and wait for that time to come.

Someone please transcribe new light on anything new from the presentation today. Thanks!

#3996 2 years ago
Quoted from Hjbondar:

June 2016
ARA informs DP that the agreed price is too low because the cost price is higher than estimated (again). This time, ARA demands over €1.000 extra per TBL. After several negotiations, DP agrees with this new price, but only under the condition that ARA seriously speeds up production and delivers 300 TBL plus 50 units of our second title: Bride of Pinbot 25th anniversary, before December 31, 2016.
October 2016
DP finds out that ARA has not ordered a single part for the 50 BoP25s. When DP confronts ARA with this, ARA insists on the higher price. DP refuses to pay this price since the condition will not be realized. ARA announces production stop of TBL.

??
So DP agrees to the new price but then decides to pursue legal action because either (or both) ARA did not speed up production and/or ARA has not ordered parts for BoP? Why not just get the TBL's made since you agreed to the price (albeit at a slower pace than you would like) and then go somewhere else to make the BoP's? I am confused

#3997 2 years ago

I'm sure Barry's email inbox is full !

#3998 2 years ago

is this what happens when you fukk a stranger in the ass?

#3999 2 years ago
Quoted from Fishbeadtwo:

is this what happens when you fukk a stranger in the ass?

Or find a stranger in the alps?

#4000 2 years ago

I cannot believe nobody wants to buy my spot!
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