You can't just walk into a Best Buy, buy a pinball machine, and walk out. There's always going to be a slight delay in purchase and delivery with pinball.

IMO situations like these = Pre-order:
-Jpop showing NOTHING, taking money
-JJP announcing their company and WOZ without a game to show yet, taking money
-Heighway announcing aAien, showing a wireframe playfield CAD drawing, taking money
-Dutch announcing Lebowski, bringing protos to shows, taking money
-Homepin announcing Thunderbirds, showing nothing, taking money
-Multimorphic showing the P3 protos, taking money
-PPS announcing MMr in 2013, taking money

Basically...people taking money for something that's at the very baby stages of development = pre-order. I think this model is pretty dead in 2017

IMO, the following are not really pre-orders:

-Stern announcing game, taking money as it is going into production soon
-PPS revealing AFMr, taking money as it's going into production soon

Sure, there are situations that could be on either side of the fence, like Spooky...but at least they have a trusted reputation. I don't think anyone without a trusted reputation will ever get enough money to "kickstart" a project ever again. If Dutch is expecting pre-order money for game 2 to bail them out of game 1...I don't see it happening.

This sounds like "ordering." You order a meal and it's delivered to you when it's prepared. You order new countertops and they are prepared, delivered and installed.

In the case of "ordering," you are are not paying for it to be conceived and have manufacturing and production figured out. You are paying for something and getting what you paid for in an acceptable time period.

I think pinball "pre-ordering" is dead. I expect "ordering" to stick around for those who don't abuse it.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

Say it once, say it twice, three times' a charm.

Ok, wonder how Kickstarter did 2 billion last year - https://www.kickstarter.com/help/stats
In my eyes the same, you make a product get money for showing it, most of these items then get dissembled to see how they can ramp up production. A lot of kickstarter projects are way to late, or even never get happen. There is a risk to be early adapter.

A lot of persons can make a great machine, look at the HEP and Homebrew community. Only few will succeed in building a business. But that is not only with pinball.

If dutch shows a new great game, complete with code and all and will tell you they have these ready to order and will be build by some one else than ARA. A lot of people will get an order in. Wonder how many persons know about the issues with TBL.

They are going to be at Texas? Seminar?? Speech??? Unveil of #2???

Hope someone records this!

Yes-yes-yes-yes-I hope so to

Obviously people are not afraid to continue to pre order #2, even as game #1 Is having serious delivery issues. I think it's quite ballsy to announce #2 when DP has not communicated with owners what the problem with #1 Is.

Sorry. no beetle juice no mad max no pulp fiction

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reveal-dutch-pinball-title-2#post-3670797

HUGE balls. Need a hammock to carry those things

I heard 25 LE's @ $12,500. Total desperation cash grab...probably to pay off ARA or lawyers. Are there 25 suckers who'd buy a new BOP for $12,500? I can't imagine...but hey, if that helps get Lebowskis back on track then who am I to judge.

I doubt you heard that.

Also, even if true, do you really think that would be enough to ameliorate their position if it's as dire as you seem to think? It really wouldn't be.

I do know the reason why Mayuh's excellent 2.0 decals had to be stopped being distributed is because they wanted to sell Barry's design for 2.0 decals themselves (which he has on his own machine) ... that idea may have morphed into making full BoPR 2.0s. So there will have been some foreshadowing, if that's what it is.

Don't accuse me of making things up. You want a pic of the text?

We'll find out tomorrow, won't we? If I'm wrong, my source was wrong...I don't lie. If I'm right, I'll look forward to your apology.

It makes absolutely no sense. Hence the scepticism.

Your righteous indignation does potentially hint at its own story, though.

How does it not make sense? Stern just made 80 SLEs for $15,000. JJP offered Dialed in Collectors Editions for $12,500. Pinball makers know low number LE/high prices can move.

I heard this news on Wednesday. Rench shows the poster reveal today. My source isn't proven wrong yet....

Here's the text with names redacted to protect the innocent. The green is my response. But yeah, I'm making it up....

BOP_text (resized).jpg

Because 25 machines at a vastly lower profit margin??

Let's assume that for this tiny run they somehow get ALL costs within $7,500 per unit (unlikely). They sell all 25 units, and thus make $125,000 gross. The extra bill to finish all 300 TBLs with ARA that you and others still keep suggesting can happen is likely to be an EXTRA $300,000 - 400,000.

It could turn out true. Stranger things have happened. But the price and number are utterly bizarre if so. Not to mention being a PR disaster.

No use speculating back and forth about it. I know what I know....Saturday will prove that information wrong or right. I'm not trying to fuck with you.

We'll see. But as I say, it makes absolutely no financial sense whatsoever ... not to mention everything else.

What does make sense about Dutch Pinball these days?

No worry Rubberducks. I agree that 25 pcs make no financial sense and is incorrect for sure

So you're not disputing the $12,500 part?

I don't know pricing so not disputing that part as I just don't know.

Honestly speaking I do expect low volume (but >>25) so USD 12500 doesn't sound that strange because of low(er) numbers

Wished we had more Futurama or a pin.

Huh, I must be imagining him telling me that the other night then.

Seems like he did hear that!

rbrdks seems to make things up as he goes. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/attack-from-mars-remake-has-landed-in-dallas-texas-with-pics/page/19#post-3671016

He either doesn't understand my post or is playing purposely ignorant. Neither do you.

Hi. If you are interested in a new BOP then there will be good news. If you are looking for an update on when your TBL will be delivered then you will not be happy.

BOP is the only thing that makes sense really. And in a way it makes sense from a delivery standpoint. All the parts are there, programming done, just get the license and make 25 special ones. Even fits that weird part of the ARA story where they were gonna have 50 of game 2 made.

If game 2 were a brand new theme/game, this would start feeling jpopish. If they announced Pulp Fiction or Trailer Park Boys and wanted full pay pre-order money it would sound like a Hail Mary plan or Jpop scheme. Trying to generate extra cash from a special BOP is at least less stupid than a second brand new pin. I guess.

Im.glad my deposit is with coin taker, A bride of pinball for 12,500 ? A standard remake of AFM at 6599 ? Theses prices are all over the map, the bubble is gonna burst ! I'm almost completely out of room now ,prices are getting ridiculous. My limit was 10k
On CC, TAF gold HUO, and TBL, that's it !

I'm glad my deposit is with Highway.

Found these laying around somewhere...

IMG_1873 (resized).JPG

IMG_1874 (resized).JPG

LOL, your entire premise is predicated on a non-existent condition, a massive GDP plunge. GIGO, and an obvious argument from ignorance fallacy. You are ever-entertaining though.

Again, you're either trolling or grossly ignorant. All that graph does is underline a small part of what I said. No possible interpretation of it runs counter to anything I said or which could be implied from what I said.

There, I fixed it for you

As gossip continues to flow in, it is suggested the initiative for ready-to-run BoP 3.0 machines came from Cointaker. Maybe Dutch has not much to do with the project except possibly some small modifications to the already existing software. I doubt they will have a big part in the funding or the fabrication and as such, I doubt it was meant as a way to fund ARA-gate.

(yes, many suggestions, maybe's and doubts in this message, but you get my drift)

Parallel to the seminar there should be a newsletter I was told.

Don't get your hopes to high on TBL is my personal feeling. If it is in legal hands these things take (a ton of) time and during legal actions it is common lawyer advise to keep your mouth shut in NL (the enemy is listening to after all)

But we will see, I really really hope I am in the wrong here.

Based on my conversation do not expect any good news on TBL. Lawyers are involved and DP is focusing on BOP 3 with new CM. Want your deposit back ... sorry can't do that. Want ARA to give you your game sitting in the wharehouse for extra $ ... sorry they don't have rights to do that only DP does. Based on what I was told it truly is a clusterfrack.

Is anyone else here at Pinside from the Achievers and attending the 3pm talk? Prepping followup questions.

If no-one appears to be recording it, can you try with your phone?

image (resized).jpeg

I will have my phone with me and do my best. I have to reality that I may never see this pin. That sucks but if it does then I will only be surprised.

Perhaps they will have another update for us at Expo in October. I'm sure this is when/how they will tell BoP 3.0 preorders what features got dropped or went missing between now and then.

That is a great question about the license window.

License is over. That doesn't affect those who have paid already...if we ever get our games that's on DP, not the license. If they want to sell anymore they have to renew.

I'm sure the games are grandfathered in even if the license has expired but how do you know? Is there some searchable license database somewhere?