The high volume Stern Pros are likely closer to $1500 BOM and assembly costs than $3000. But I'd say given the issues with ARA $6k is probably conservative.

If the new CM works out, and they are indeed larger and can produce the games more quickly and efficiently, that probably also means cheaper too. Also more likelihood of more than 300 being produced. So possibility of some silver lining. We'll see.

The license has expired. They'll have to renew it...I don't see that happening.

I get your point, but a lot of us don't care about DP's profitability at this point. When it comes down to brass tacks, their problems/woes shouldn't be our ours. Unfortunately, it's the cost/risk of doing business.

I would not feel so strongly if we didn't have to contend with the drama with Phil, music licensing, delays, lack of transparency, and fibs.

If ARA is getting $6k (and wants more) then everything is fucked here Dude.

I try to only worry about things I can influence or have control over.

That's new information? When was that disclosed?

As I mentioned earlier if people think building a pin like TBL in small volume can be done with profits far bigger than usd 1000 keep on dreaming.

Ara demanding this kind of money extra is pushing the markup in the red or close by and than we have not even touched the topic of license costs, marketing, shows, salaries for Jaap, Koen and Barry.

Yep, you can state rightfully that this is DP problem not yours (Rarehero says a lot of things I disagree with, his tone is very not dude (he has the role of Walter ) but his remark that we are customers and not investors is a correct one allthough it feels different ) but you are talking here of a startup company. So their problem is also our problem. Like it or not but it's a fact in pinball life.

Like P3 said in a special K podcast, there are only few ways to fund a startup and preorder model is likely most achievable or you have to be rich yourself ...... can tell you Barry and Jaap are no millionaires or at least don't live like it

So hang on tight and reread Rubberducks earlier true words.

Got to play a captain Nemo further today, sn 3. Ordered 5 years ago and delivered some weeks ago. So it proofs it can still happen !!

LOL. People aren't asking for that; quit changing the premise.

It doesn't take PhD to provide some basic communication while also avoiding jeopardizing or weakening their position.

Not true. Why are you saying this? The usual badmouthing I assume?

The usual badmouthing? I've supported this project since its inception. I've supported Dutch since day 1. I was order #1 of BOP 2.0. Sorry if I'm not playing the part of company ambassador.

Pinball licenses last 3 years. 3 years is up. Can't imagine Universal would renew it after how things have gone...I wonder if Universal knows how their license is being handled at the moment. Do they know of the hostage games and this whole situation? I'm biting my tongue until after Texas - if I don't like what Jaap has to say, I'll be contacting the licensing people at Universal the following week.

They tend to get shifted forwards until production date begins, often with a date by which production must start.

Given that this is neither a blue ribband IP for Universal, nor have DP ever made any claims of high production (and thus any real revenue for Universal) for the title, I doubt they wouldn't have been flexible.

Jaap stated in November that licensing was not the issue behind no announcement about a further run beyond the 300, but that contract negotiations with ARA would be necessary to extend further than 300. Could be untrue. But it certainly makes sense in light of recent events.

Yep, you are very supporting now

They say you know who truely your friends are when times are bad ......

So just the idea you have that licenses go for three years made you state that the TBL license has ended? No fact checking, just shouting things to stir the masses. Pinside at his best

What in heavens name you wanna gain with contacting Universal? Just, very hypothetically, suppose your action will get the license revoked, how does this help your case??

I truely don't think the license is at stake but just the fact you wanna go to Universal to create trouble really p*sses me off. This is not a Kevin situation or do you think Roger Sharpe also f*cked up to use the word you like so much?

Flame suit on.

Stern does 3 year timeframes on their licenses IIRC, but I bet others can be different if they tried.

Rench, this is beyond "friends". I considered Barry and Jaap friends, until it was clear they were lying to us. Friends don't lie to friends. So, now they're guys running a business I bought a product from. I want the product I bought.

As for the license being done - I have a trusted source who I believe 100%. That source would know. That source has never lied to me. Don't believe me? That's on you. I don't throw bombs to throw bombs.

As for Universal- Buyers are currently at the whim of Dutch's "truth"...and we have no idea if that truth IS the truth. Universal is a powerful party who could possibly help get to the bottom of all this.

Really @Rensh? I'm super thankful for the info you provided us, but I can't agree with your statement. This isn't a "friendship." They have our money and we have nothing after 2-3 years of patiently waiting. DP has been super shady on the communication and clarity. Not very friend-like right?

Most of their customer base is US-based. It's not like we could enjoy the fruits of a party or factory tour like you and other UK/European locals. They had no business celebrating until all games shipped out the door.

Rarehero has every right to push for answers. I'm glad someone is digging, otherwise we'd have zero idea of where this project stands.

IMG_3890 (resized).JPG

Communication (resized).jpg

It was a short notice replacement for the lack of Dutch Pinball Open (not DP the company) last year, and people paid a modest sum to attend and cover the costs.

They are crooks, plain & simple. Without them contacting buyers after another delay & broken promises offering a refund or partial refund, it is obvious they cannot fund refunds.

If you don't want to believe me, tough titty.

Unless I'm missing something, all communication I received called it a "VIP Factory Tour." They were celebrating the beginning of production.

The first games shipped 2 months later in April 2016. You must be referring to the other factory tour in November 2016. Even then, by that time, they had barely shipped any games!

dutch schedule (resized).png

#106. You?

212 & 213

Well no need to fret then. CT has your deposit.

They aren't crooks, plain and simply Mr. Bally. They've delivered 51 pins, plain and simple. This isn't a jpop scrap together some games to not get sued. It's another philgate. A tree in the road if you will. They delivered 51 pins that are of high quality, fully functioning and very fun to play. If it wasn't for ARA holding the 40 or so games they would have shipped them already. Going to Universal is ridiculous, totally undudelike and like Rensh said it wont get you your game in the end. There is no way DP can refund early achievers at this point, so as hard and frustrating as it is just hang in there. They've been on this quest for over 5 years now and have probably dealt with thousands of problems that nobody even knew about. For Christ Sake let them work it out. I'm sure we will know by TPF.

Moderation notice:
I understand this is a sensitive topic.
But try to keep this discussion civil, thanks.

Cool! Welcome to the Nemo's owner club (all 3 posted in this thread!).

It happened because Antonio accepted to lose some money and a lot of time. By assembling his games (at least the ones for Europe) himself in his garage he kept overheads to a minimum. The model works for very small production runs, but can't be viable for 300.

Jim, to avoid further confusion. I stated I played it, I don't own it unfortunately

So not in Nemo owners club, it is Ad Jonker's Nemo I played.

Most pinball manufacturers start off with good intentions but don't realize how much cash is needed to get to full production and beyond.

But I have always been pretty disappointed with the way these guys communicate and sold my BOP 2.0 without a single regret ages ago. Whatever happened to the code update that was supposedly done months ago?

Anyway hope Texas brings good news.

When one puts a deposit down on say a car and the order is delayed, purchaser's ( note, I did not say "investors or early adopters") are not told that the only person who can answer the reason for the delay will be making a presentation to explain everything at the Chicago, New York or LA Auto Show (always the farthest location).

I will be there at TPF.

I usually just contact the vendor or if it's outside the timeframe of when I need it, cancel and buy it somewhere else.

Pinball licenses last whatever you negotiate. Just because Stern usually goes for a 3-year deal doesn't mean DP did. Aside from that you can always negotiate extensions and renewals. Shouldn't be a big deal at all, especially not when the right people negotiate that (if needed in the first place).

The license isn't treated in any way. Just because you're waiting for your game (as am I) doesn't affect the license at all. Only your perception of certain aspects.

Yeah, that's what we need. Turn a movie studio against DP so not only you but everybody else won't get their game. Fuck it up for everybody, because you may not like what Jaap has to say. Very undudelike. Plus your game is already build. Whenever this goes to court chances are those games will be ordered to be delivered straight away, so you'll get yours in time. But you can still fuck it up for those who's game still has to be build. So how will your actions benefit the process? And if your actions result in the rest of the games not being build, how do you think I (and others) will appreciate that?

Here's what I suggest: DP are working on a solution. Let them handle it, they are plenty capable to do so. It may not go as fast as you like, as there are now lawyers involved who prefer to stretch things as long as they can in order to write more hours. Last thing this situation needs is people assuming thing ruining it for everybody else. Most startup companies need 4-5 years to deliver their first game. DP was already quicker with a quality product. So there's a new bump in the road. Too bad, but once you get your game you don't care anymore. Then it was just part of the waiting process and all water under the bridge. I waited years for my BBB. Once I got it I didn't look back, I just enjoyed the game.

They need to prove this. Silence and lies don't give me confidence. Like I said, I'm chilling till Texas. Then we'll see.

See now you're getting into Predator witch hunt territory. Blame the victims, not the source of the problems. DP is 100% the problem here. They fucked this up. If I go digging for answers, sorry, I'm not the problem.

If everyone sees me as the enemy, here's the solution: Convince DP to give me a refund. I'll sign an NDA or a restraining order or whatever. I'll disappear. You'll never hear from me again. I honestly don't even care anymore. If I need a Lebowski fix I'll just watch the movie. Pinball sucks.

We get it. You're cool as a cucumber. You don't sweat the small stuff and you're OK waiting in limbo on a long overdue $8,500 purchase because it's "out of your control." Keep in mind we are talking about a cash purchase here. This isn't something we can easily cancel.

MrBally made a valid point. Just because you and few others are OK with being left in the dark, doesn't mean the rest of us share the same philosophy. I think it's clear that some of us are tired of the drama and lack of transparency.

I feel like a broken record, but the fact that we need to beg DP for updates is complete BS! I also shouldn't need a trade show to get them either. This is the point MrBally was making, which has been supported by a few others, including myself.

We are not being dickheads. You may be content with radio silence and getting your product status updates from tradeshows, but not everyone has to agree with you.

ALSO-
Keep in mind that @rarehero's efforts helped us learn how the "board issues" were a cover-up. We'd still be sitting here speculating about them if he and others had not done any due diligence. Where's the appreciation?

I've been working Product Development for more than 15 years, so I know what it takes to get a product out the door. This isn't cool nor fun anymore. I'm sure most of us would be OK with the truth vs. the "hide the wienie" game DP has been playing for quite some time (music licensing, the apron, production start dates).

No they don't. You expect them to show you the contract? All they need to do is deliver you your game or refund you. Delivering you your game is just a matter of time as it is already build, but I rather see them refund you. Heck, I'll take your number in line over my own, so I get my game sooner and someone else can move up a spot.

Just be cause you feel you're a "victim" doesn't mean that entitles you to cause more problems and blow it up for everybody. You do that you're clearly a problem for everyone in line behind you. Got a text from both Barry and Jaap this morning saying that the license has not expired, so that's not even an issue. Yet you're trying to create one based on incorrect assumptions and apparently unreliable sources. Over the line! Since you're so confident: where is your proof that the license expired? You have copies of contracts? If you don't I suggest you sit back, relax and stop stirring up a pot for no reason other than your own insecurity about the situation.

So why are hanging out here so much?

They've refused to refund me and my game is hostage. So - yeah. After the PCB lie, all burdens are on them, and silence and "no info to give" emails don't cut it. Show us all contracts and paperwork or I won't believe a word. Only way I trust them again is refund or game.

Why do you believe them? They haven't earned our trust back yet.

Kills time while on the shitter.

That's really not fair to say considering @rarehero's money helped kickstart this project in the first place.

Fortunately, you guys (Rensh included) have the inside scoop. We don't have it like that.

I don't think anyone here believes Barry and Jaap are bad guys. It's obvious we love their work. We just need them to be straightforward and forthright so that we aren't speculating and going at each other. If it takes a threat or kick in the ass, so be it. We all bought into TBL and helped make this thing happen. At the end of the day, we DO have some common ground (besides a fondness for pinball).

Hey for the record my STFU comment to you was supposed to be a bit tongue in cheek. It was really more a "c'mon, man!" ....I didn't mean for it to come off personal. My beef is with Dutch, not anyone who bought the game. I'm just splattering my emotions out here cuz what else can I really do in this situation. I'm really mostly Dude about it all - if I was "full Walter" I'd have gotten way deeper angry about all this. I'm mostly just in a state of disbelief how ridiculous this has gotten.

Also I've been getting so much joy from the new Zelda I barely care about pinball anymore....I just wanna know if I'll ever see a box or my cash, I sorta don't care which one at this point.

14,908 posts in 4 years. I think you need to see your gastroenterologist.

I did not know a Human being could be full with so much shit..

Fox Studios - Good morning thank you for contacting Fox Studios how can we help you

Rarehero - Hi my name is Rarehero

Fox Studios - *click*

I wouldn't really worry about what Rarehero does.....

For sure, time for somebody to get a life!

Right. Rarehero is such a loser. He doesn't have any other interests or hobbies. His job probably sucks too!

I won't deny being a forum addict over the years. Lately not so much. I'm poppin' a squat right now! That's my Pinside check in time.

Yes. There are many of us that spend too much time here. Some pointing fingers.

I believe he was being facetious.

Off topic.
I love that my wife hates that I love Family Guy.