If your paid in full and worried you can always put your spot up for sale, a few have lately and have seemed to sell. Plus your still in a better boat then us predator people, i'm paid in full and i'll never see my game.

Sending daily mails will not help, will only work on your own nerves. This matter takes time and sending daily mails only reminds you again again and again on this situation. Let it loose for some time pls and trust, or hope if you prefer that word, that DP is doing their best and don't need reminders. They are not forgetting us

So don't drive yourself crazy !!

It's hard. They lied, and while I *hope* the right thing happens in the end, I have no evidence that will be the case. If they want my trust back, they need to earn it...offer a good faith refund to their customers. Refund me back $7500, keep $1000 as a desposit...and I'll pay the rest when the game is ready to ship. Without a good faith refund, it will be hard to truly have trust in them at all.

@Rensh, thanks for the info. If this is only a financial / contract issue, would it be ridiculous to suggest DP push for an agreement -> ARA to ship the already made games at the contracted price, DP to pay monies owed from first container of delivered pins, DP to put funds into escrow for the 40 built pins to be shipped and ARA initiate lawsuit for what they feel is unpaid and a path forward? This would be in everybody's best interest and the games won't be held hostage.. a win-win-win-win! Oh well. .. someone mixed my medicine, I don't know what I'm on.

There's just no way this is going to end without legal arbitration unless ARA suddenly back down. Even then, it seems unlikely. From what I've heard through the grapevine, there is little doubt that ARA definitely are asking for significantly more than the contractually agreed price ... whether they have any case for it or not, I have no clue.

Either way, there's no chance of DP cooperating in the way you suggest or any other.

This is a divorce, not an argument and someone sleeping on the sofa for a few weeks.

As with any divorce, all parties should hope for the cleanest, quickest break possible. As is often the case though, those hopes may mean very little and it could become very messy.

@Rensh, wish you'd have asked Barry if funds were available to pay for these and the other preordered games not yet made. Because if that was not true, it could be a cause of further concern to many. I'm sure you got a good read and could judge his sincerity. If true, my paradigm would shift on this matter and make DP 100% in the right. If it was only a disagreement over what's owed and there is no question of having 100% of funds available, I'd be overjoyed to learn. So wish you'd have thought to ask Barry.

Yeah, this is the tough part that having dinner with Barry won't really give you a clear picture on. I'm sure they thought they were in the clear with all the licensing too.. even arguing as much when Philgate happened.. and it wasn't until Sharpe got involved that all was ultimately settled, and changes did have to be made. So no matter if they thought they were right.. they weren't.

Rensh's post makes me wonder if they will instead try to sell game 2 before resolving TBL. Get the cashflow going with game 2, work on TBL's legal wranglings, and then come back to TBL backlog when either ARA is resolved.. or with your new CM after new contractor is proven and you have some fresh cash from game2 sales.

<sigh>
Well....on a related good news front, Goodman finally got his well-deserved star on the Hollywood Walk Of Fame today.

TBL (resized).jpg

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/jeff-bridges-dude-big-lebowski-john-goodman-walk-of-fame-1202006543/

He should have brought a coffee can of ashes to throw out over the star and have it blow over the crowd!

Was checking the thread to see if they delivered any good news at TPF. Cancelling seems like bad news. Anyone know anything different?

DP is still on the TPF schedule for 3 PM on Saturday the 25th.

Only 12 days, 17 hrs, and 33 minutes ...

Not that I'm anxiously awaiting this or anything.

Last week Barry confirmed me in person that Jaap is going to TPF so where the cancellation story comes from ??? No idea.

Legal talk or new contract manufacturer don't happen overnight

This thing takes time to solve but more info would be great. Also ofcourse as soon as legal issues are envolved people are extra careful with mentioning things

torch (resized).png

Crowd greeting Jaap @ TPF

All great to hear...but (and please refrain from throwing rotten tomatoes at me) I need to be devil's advocate...

That's one side of basically saying the other side is wrong, and providing it by third party. I feel like they need to come and make a post on here, and we also don't have anything official from ARA. I don't think there was ever any doubt that DP has a great passion for this, but it's a matter of what the real situation is beyond "it's their fault" and what steps are being taken. From both sides.

Show websites aren't constantly updated with the current info... as someone that deals with one, I think it's pretty damn optimistic to think they are

We're expected to "hold our water" until they figure it out.

None of us have anything in writing in terms of a sales agreement with DP (or Cointaker). We also don't have the backing of a credit card company to support our payments to DP/Cointaker. I don't know the law in The Netherlands, but DP would get annihilated here in the US if it came down to legal action. I don't think a Dutch judge would be keen with DP holding customer funds hostage until they worked out a solution with their contract manufacturer. Too much time has elapsed and there's a lack of transparency/communication from DP. Game over. Not our problem!

If a performer cancels and/or reschedules their event, Ticketmaster doesn't hold your money until the performer reschedules or returns to that venue/city. They immediately refund your money and it's up to the consumer to re-purchase should the performer return. DP should do the same (sans $1,000 preorder deposits). That's more than fair.

To put it bluntly, I've got 99 problems but DP and ARA's issues "ain't" one.

Well then, that's PROOF POSITIVE for me..... Just like it was going to be at Pinball Expo in Chicago last October.

He wasn't in Chicago cause he had a busted up hand and underwent surgery on it. There were photos of him in hospital on Facebook site. I'm not happy about the situation but I wanted to point out facts.

Interesting that no one from Expo said anything about a medical or injury reason for the seminar cancelation. Again the cancelation was revealed at the last minute.

Did this injury occur in the States? If not, wasn't anyone else available to represent DP?

I picked up one of the last games from cointaker, played it today I'd be really bummed if I didn't get the game .come on guys work it out

Come on man. I fully realize and understand that DP needs to re-earn your trust but this pushing it to hard.

And yes, there were people representing DP. They are called distributor Cointaker.

IMG_1594 (resized).PNG

It was said weeks before that he couldn't travel.

From what I've now heard, Rensh's post is broadly representative of what's going on, and indeed there has been significant progress since then on moving forwards.

Guess we'll see if Jaap can say anything publicly at TPF.

Considering MOST of their existing customers will not be at TPF, I'd suggest to DP to schedule an email blast with the same information timed as they take the stage. Otherwise the same complaints that came out of Expo will happen, where non-customers will have more information than those with money and pre-orders on the line.

What would be nicer is if TPF (and other shows) finally started recording all the seminars and posting them to YouTube immediately .. it's so easy technically and logistically to do these days, and ideally live stream them.

I agree on the ability to watch seminar streams, but preorders shouldn't have to watch a seminar stream (or logon to Pinside) to get an update on their purchase. As Frolic mentioned, DP has a history of informing us AFTER public announcements.

I don't think that shows needs to stream immediately, but archiving and sharing shortly afterwards would be awesome.

Seeing speakers in real time is part of the value provided by shows. If fewer people came to shows because they could see all the content online for free, shows would be less motivated to have speakers, especially when some speakers cost the show money one way or another.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

It's like saying no one would go to an Apple product launch because it's online for free and no effort.

There is a bit of competing objectives between show organizers (sell tickets to show) and pinball companies (promote and sell their product), but it seems the idea of debuting new products or breaking information to a room of however many people and not consider the greater world outside the doors (Pinside gets what 3000-4000 per day) extremely small thinking and not how to run a successful company.

I think it would encourage more people to go. Not recording and archiving content just seems like lack of effort and organisation to me and many others. It doesn't convey a good impression to people who've not attended these shows before.

This analogy doesn't fit. Apple product launches are launching Apple products. These are events primarily for the press. Speakers at pinball shows are primarily for the enjoyment of show patrons.

Now if a pinball company only used pinball shows to announce products or engage with customers, then sure, this is very small thinking on their part.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

Yeah, I think we're in agreement here and this is what I'm getting at. There seems to be an outdated philosophy with debuting games and news at shows, where all the effort is put into traveling to the show and no consideration to the internet waiting for the news. So we're left with poor cellphone photos and videos, and second hand reports of what was said.

As a Pinside guy who doesn't get to out to shows, I've seen this play out time and time again.

That's why I made my comment with advice for DP, they've already made this mistake before at the last Expo and there was serious negative blow back from their existing customer base and they are at a critical time of managing their customers carefully.

Right on. For FAST, shows act as a rallying point. Something we assign some certain goals we would like to achieve by, and then spend time with friends, old and new, in person.

There is a level of engagement that you get from a show that you will never get from an online stream, but again, that isn't the point. Information to the masses is important. Which reminds me, I really need to update our website!

Aaron
FAST Pinball

I don't have the time or or desire to travel to Texas to find out why my fucking Lebowski machine isn't in my fucking house. It's 2017. Stream the fucker so we can all know where our fucking money is!

This is the Lebowski thread...so, if I get banned for saying fuck...well, FUCK!

While I agree that shows don't need to live stream, it's neat when they do. We live stream all the speakers at the Northwest Pinball & Arcade Show and make them available on YouTube later--it's never hurt our attendance, which grows every year. I think the quality of our speakers and streaming and archiving them has helped build our national reputation.

Dutch Pinball have 140+ fully paid customers who have games in limbo at the moment. Honest and direct communication to this very small and captive audience should be their one and only goal. I'm not sure that any pinball show is the right forum for what they need to convey to these people. With nothing but misinformation being fed to them, I am certain that some of them have questioned DP's financial standing. For those, Sending a representative half way around the world to address a tiny fraction of them will probably be viewed nothing more than another waste of funds. An email blast to the customers in limbo followed up with an individual phone or e-mail conversation with those who desire more information seems like a better pathway to direct communication; but that has never been DP's strong suit.

.. and then less reason to goto said show.. and now you know why they are hesitant to do so.

Apple Launches are media events - not self-sustaining commercial ventures whose survival relies upon getting people there for revenue and to entice vendors and other sponsors.

Well as someone who had a preorder lined up and then cancelled it for a refund when the shit hit the fan, I just walked out of Alamo Drafthouse in SF after putting twenty some odd games on it and man I am over the moon impressed. Makes this whole thing that much more depressing and at least I got my money back. Holy hell I want this game more than ever. DP knocked it out of the park. I've watched streams many times but playing it firsthand just confirmed it for me. I guess now I wait till Texas and see what they say...

140 games paid in full @ $8.5K is some serious cheese. The people with cheese on the line should know well before those who have no cheese in the game IMHO.

Imagine if you did have the time and desire and paid to travel there and paid to attend the show and then DP cancels their "No Shit Seminar"; Talk about feeling fucked in the [censored]...

Your censorship policy seems inCONsistent.

I hope nobody is going to TPF for the DP seminar. Hey they'll have hundreds of pins there. That's like buying Playboy for the "articles." Of course now that they don't have naked women anymore maybe you do buy Playboy for the articles.

You must not be following along, playboy brought back naked women

Yeah. My subscription ran out in the 80's.

What could DP possibly be talking about at the show, other than the TBL fiasco? And if that's all they have to talk about, why not do it through email?? Surely they aren't trying to sell the game to new customers(until everything is straightened out)

I'm kind of getting burnt out on this whole thing, I'm not enjoying having my game right now(I know boo hoo poor me, I really do feel for those that have money in and nothing to show for it). I'm not playing it much anymore as the code is only a shell of a game still. I have such high expectations and this was a dream theme for me and I love the layout and think it can be a phenomenal game if ever finished but it just isn't fun right now.

Has anyone sold one on here yet that actually had the game in possession, kind of stopped paying attention? Not saying I will sell it but I might consider it strongly without any good news coming out soon or at TPF. Not even sure what it might be worth to anyone to be honest, obviously someone with money in with DP has little interest in paying for another one.

You've got 20 games to play and you're sitting around worrying about the code for one of them? Not being patient NEVER pays off. Just hang tight and let the chips fall where they will. Trust me, the value of your game is only going to go up. And those that say it won't, want one, don't own one, and are hoping to get one. Just remember that.

Now go play some pinball.