(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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#3501 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I got this email from Jaap this morning:
---------------------
ARA is not telling the truth. They don’t charge us the agreed price.
In May 2015 we agreed price A. In June 2016 ARA wanted much more money per TBL: A plus €1.000+. DP agreed with this price but only under the condition that ARA would deliver 300 TBLs plus 50 units of our 2nd title before the 31st of December 2016. A few months later (October 2016) we found out that ARA didn’t order parts for the production of the 50 units of our 2nd title. We confronted ARA with this and told them the deal of June is of because they don’t deliver in accordance with the clear condition (the delivery of 300 TBLs plus 50 units of our 2nd title before the 31st of December 2016).
ARA insists on charging us A plus €1.000+. They didn’t produce a single unit of our 2nd title.
For us this is unacceptable as you probably will understand. The agreed price is price A and not A plus €1.000+.
Please feel free to share this with the pinball community.
---------------------
So, they're sticking to their "ARA blew it" story. I just hope they had this conditional contract in writing.If we are to believe this...I think an interesting tidbit is the mention of the 2nd title. If they indeed finished designing a 2nd title and wanted it built by Dec. 2016, that means DP wasn't planning on being one-and-done, and that maybe gives me a bit more confidence that they'll work this all out...as they've got another game in the can that should have been ready to go.

I don't buy their story verbatim..

1) A common sense contract would have resolutions written in for non-performance / aka missing a deadline... not "you failed, price increase off the table" and the deadlock they are in now. No way ARA would agree to a contract that simply says "perform, or you get zero". A new agreement would replace the prior agreement, not some 'fallback'.
2) This would have meant ARA agreeing to a production of 350 games in 6 months.. or > 13 games a week. They've never been anywhere near that speed.. and that's been obvious since day 1.. not some discovery about no parts for game 2 three months later

Again the truth is probably somewhere in the middle... the terms on what the two parties can change things on... and what deal is in effect when those terms are disputed. And then DP withholding payment as a bargaining chip...

#3502 2 years ago

I think they'll find a way to work it out and get at least the 300 TBLs done.

#3503 2 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

Well let's just hope DP can work it out.
I'm staying in for the long haul.
Wonder if Jaap will announce the second pin at TPF?

If Phil is to be believed, it's Back to the Future.

#3504 2 years ago

Wait so the second game, which they have taken zero preorder dollars for, is blocking production of the first game? That is pretty messed up. DP should be working to get the original games out the door pronto. Eff the second game; that's counting the chickens before they hatched.

I still contend even the best case scenario, like switching to Stern and rolling off games before the end of the year would be > $1000 per game. (no way that happens anyways, it's likely ARA has tons of parts and proprietary stuff on hand that would need to be recreated and you can bet ARA isn't going to just hand over playfields and other parts if their contract is getting cancelled)

#3505 2 years ago

Stern would never build this game. It would have to be converted to spike and stern electronics.

Quoted from Richthofen:

Wait so the second game, which they have taken zero preorder dollars for, is blocking production of the first game? That is pretty messed up. DP should be working to get the original games out the door pronto. Eff the second game; that's counting the chickens before they hatched.
I still contend even the best case scenario, like switching to Stern and rolling off games before the end of the year would be > $1000 per game. (no way that happens anyways, it's likely ARA has tons of parts and proprietary stuff on hand that would need to be recreated and you can bet ARA isn't going to just hand over playfields and other parts if their contract is getting cancelled)

#3506 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

1) A common sense contract would have resolutions written in for non-performance / aka missing a deadline... not "you failed, price increase off the table" and the deadlock they are in now. No way ARA would agree to a contract that simply says "perform, or you get zero". A new agreement would replace the prior agreement, not some 'fallback'.

I share your opinion too. ARA would/should have to legally eat any cost-up differences after production began. The news of a 2nd game shows that DP was looking to lock down manufacturing and save with larger quantities beyond TBL. Who knows? It appears that ARA doesn't need DP's business, otherwise, an agreement would have been reached by now.

12
#3507 2 years ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

Stern would never build this game. It would have to be converted to spike and stern electronics.

That simply isn't true. MMR does not use Spike electronics. It uses beaglebone. And Stern assembled them.

#3508 2 years ago

At the first factory tour a joint presentation was made by DP and ARA showing the production ramp-up over a period of months. I believe the steady state was to be 10 units per week. Obviously that didn't happen. It sounds like ARA didn't fully understand that making pinball machines is hard.

#3509 2 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

The news of a 2nd game shows that DP was looking to lock down manufacturing and save with larger quantities beyond TBL.

The news of the existence of a 2nd game potentially ready for production in December sounds ridiculous.

#3510 2 years ago

Mongo -TBL (resized).jpg

#3511 2 years ago
Quoted from RTS:

The news of the existence of a 2nd game potentially ready for production in December sounds ridiculous.

Agree. The code for TBL still needs love.

#3512 2 years ago

So merging the 2 sides correspondence: Dutch are refusing to pay for the first shipment of already delivered games simply because ARA couldnt/wouldnt/didnt also commence production of the 2nd title. Dutch halted payments, and non payment led to ARA stopping production and holding already produced games until payment was made for the original, already delivered, shipment.

So Dutch effectively halted the whole project because they "found out" parts were not ordered for the 2nd game. Doesnt add up to me. Doesnt sound like there are any issues from ARA's side in finishing TBL, only that DP have not paid for already delivered games. Why cant Dutch simply finish TBL's production with ARA then begin looking for a new producer for game 2?

Is it slightly concerning Dutch hasn't yet, according to ARA, paid for the original shipment of games?

#3513 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Again the truth is probably somewhere in the middle...

Yes, it must be the "middle truth".

#3514 2 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Why cant Dutch simply finish TBL's production with ARA then begin looking for a new producer for game 2?
Is it slightly concerning Dutch hasn't yet, according to ARA, paid for the original shipment of games?

Very concerning... My guess is they don't have the money. If they had it, they should have just ponied up the extra money and gotten the games done and delivered to keep a shit storm from ever going public and tarnishing their reputation. Sometimes things loose money to make good to the customer and you learn from your mistakes. Didn't Gene loose a shit ton on BBB but still made good on his promise to his customers?

#3515 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

There are two sides to every story. Here's the most recent ARA letter. They claim Dutch didn't pay for the shipped containers & ~40 are ready to ship as soon as they're paid.
Who's lying? Who knows. Either they'll work it out with each other or they'll work it out in the courts.

I can't comment on the truthfulness of DP's statements regarding the dispute.

I can however comment on the truthfulness of ARA's statements:

They claimed that production was halted due to non-payment in October '16 and will only be resumed if their demands are met.

This is categorically untrue. They were still in production on November the 3rd, when 20 games were finished. About 30 of us bore witness to this. Magically, despite production ceasing before that date, the number of finished games has doubled?

DP may be at some fault in this, but if ARA are willing to 'out' the dispute to DP's customers and lie in doing so (including making up easily disproveable information) , I wouldn't trust much of what they said.

- and yes I'm aware I've made posts to this effect before, but people are still debating the veracity of ARA's statements, when they're not really debateable.

#3516 2 years ago

what a shit show this continues to be.

10
#3517 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

- and yes I'm aware I've made posts to this effect before, but people are still debating the veracity of ARA's statements, when they're not really debateable.

Your argument is flawed. ARA's "lie" is beneficial to all involved. ARA's "truth" (if it is true) of not being paid for completed production is a thousand times more significant to the issue.

Perhaps they mean that they have not started any new production, but finished the units that had started. This would be the expected behavior of a CM that was afraid of being stiffed. Unfinished goods are virtually worthless while finished goods can be liquidated to satisfy the bill should that be the final judgment of the dispute. Not only that, but a production line must be cleared out when new contract production demands the square feet. Do you think ARA will idle for 4 months while Jaap belligerently argues. This has already been addressed by others that have business experience with the Dutch.

You are using a 'gotcha' to bolster your emotional investment. I suspect what really happened is DP refused to pay for change orders once production was in process. This is really not uncommon at all in contract manufacturing.

It doesn't matter who is publicly most honest. What matters is how DP idled construction for over 4 months because a financial dispute. They take the blame from me for two reasons. First, they chose their counter-party and entered into an obviously non-succinct agreement. Second, it's extremely unlikely the dispute will work itself out by waiting longer.

Reading between the lines, this is clearly an engineering/manufacturing change order dispute having to do with the bad boards. If DP is trying to stick their CM with the costs of engineering errors and changes, this will not be resolved. Look for a 2 year delay while courts settle the dispute between DP and ARA.

In the meantime, we can expect DP to search for the Holy Grail of a CM who will do work for an under-capitalized company that has already spent the revenue that was generated by selling the yet-to-be-produced product - a CM that will start a program to be paid for in "love of the game". Good luck!

It's really simple to me. A financial dispute has arisen that DP is incapable of solving in the short term for certain. And the long term solution is only solved by first catching a Leprechaun.

This does not look good.

#3518 2 years ago
Quoted from SadSack:

Your argument is flawed. ARA's "lie" is beneficial to all involved. ARA's "truth" (if it is true) of not being paid for completed production is a thousand times more significant to the issue.
Perhaps they mean that they have not started any new production, but finished the units that had started.
You are using a 'gotcha' to bolster your emotional investment. I suspect what really happened is DP refused to pay for change orders once production was in process. This is really not uncommon at all in contract manufacturing.
It doesn't matter who is publicly most honest. What matters is how DP idled construction for over 4 months because a financial dispute. They take the blame from me for two reasons. First, they chose their counter-party and entered into an obviously non-succinct agreement. Second, it's extremely unlikely the dispute will work itself out by waiting longer.
Reading between the lines, this is clearly an engineering/manufacturing change order dispute having to do with the bad boards. If DP is trying to stick their CM with the costs of engineering errors and changes, this will not be resolved. Look for a 2 year delay while courts settle the dispute between DP and ARA.
In the meantime, we can expect DP to search for the Holy Grail of a CM who will do work for an under-capitalized company that has already spent the revenue that was generated by selling the product - a CM that will start a program to be paid for in "love of the game". Good luck!
It's really simple to me. A financial dispute has arisen that DP is incapable of solving in the short term for certain. And the long term solution is only solved by first catching a Leprechaun.
This does not look good.

They made specific claims. Which are categorically not true.

#3519 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

They made specific claims. Which are categorically not true.

So does that get you your game more quickly? And further, why are you so sure that DP hasn't told more significant lies?

#3520 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

They claimed that production was halted due to non-payment in October '16 and will only be resumed if their demands are met.
This is categorically untrue. They were still in production on November the 3rd, when 20 games were finished. About 30 of us bore witness to this. Magically, despite production ceasing before that date, the number of finished games has doubled?

Perhaps they meant new game production/parts procurement was halted in October, but they had to finish the 20 already on the line.

#3521 2 years ago

It's official, this thread is actually now boring.

#3522 2 years ago

Maybe DP lied about lying about the board issues.

pasted_image (resized).png

#3523 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

They made specific claims. Which are categorically not true.

How can you know ? You saw some people working there. Did they know you were coming ? Ever heard of keeping up appearances ??

It is not even an issue. It has nothing to do with anything (legally). If anything it would be positive for ARA if they kept working despite non payments.

What bothers me most is that Dutch has still not said anything. All we have is an alledged e-mail saying that the message can be used in the forums.

Ara puts their statements on paper with their letterhead on it. Legally not very wise if they are not being honest (legally honest, I do not say what they say is the whole story as they can be juggling with dates and stuff reading that letter).

#3524 2 years ago
Quoted from ronaldvg:

How can you know ? You saw some people working there. Did they know you were coming ? Ever heard of keeping up appearances ??
It is not even an issue. It has nothing to do with anything (legally). If anything it would be positive for ARA if they kept working despite non payments.
What bothers me most is that Dutch has still not said anything. All we have is an alledged e-mail saying that the message can be used in the forums.
Ara puts their statements on paper with their letterhead on it. Legally not very wise if they are not being honest (legally honest, I do not say what they say is the whole story as they can be juggling with dates and stuff reading that letter).

Letterhead means nothing these days.

#3525 2 years ago
Quoted from SadSack:

So does that get you your game more quickly? And further, why are you so sure that DP hasn't told more significant lies?

You're constantly making things up out of thin air. There isn't even tenuous implication for most of what you're saying.

I don't have a horse in the race. Nor did I claim the latter.

-7
#3526 2 years ago

Unfortunately, special achievers without games, it appears you're fucked! Abandon all hope, he who enters. You can put a fork in it. If Dutch Pinball doesn't have funds for the container load of delivered games (all speculation), no more games will ship. The 40 games in ARAs warehouse will continue to sit, until a court case begins and ends. Maybe Walter Sobchak can cheer you up, but remember to substitute "everything" for "nothing" as you read it ...

Walter Sobchak: Nothing is fucked here Dude. Nothing is fucked. They're a bunch of fucking amateurs!
The Dude: Walter, would you just shut the fuck... don't say a peep while I'm doing business here, man!
Walter Sobchak: Okay Dude. Have it your way.
[the Dude answers the phone]
Walter Sobchak: But they're amateurs.

#3527 2 years ago

I have never heard of Duch pinball.

#3528 2 years ago

Thanks for the spelling reminder, Nilroc. Guess you could argue I didn't cross my t's. Does that put me over the line?

#3529 2 years ago

Doesn't put you over any line.
You are entitled to your opinion even if it is "all speculation"
Your words not mine.

#3530 2 years ago
Quoted from Gutterballs:

It's official, this thread is actually now boring.

#3531 2 years ago

If this goes south those 51 delivered machines are gonna be worth a ton. Number 52 here....can't believe I am 1 unit away from avoiding this fiasco. OVER THE LINE!!!

#3532 2 years ago
Quoted from Nikonokin:

If this goes south those 51 delivered machines are gonna be worth a ton. Number 52 here....can't believe I am 1 unit away from avoiding this fiasco. OVER THE LINE!!!

Most definitely over the line, man. That's a bummer dude. One of many favorite scenes.

The Dude: Walter, ya know, it's Smokey, so his toe slipped over the line a little, big deal. It's just a game, man.
Walter Sobchak: Dude, this is a league game, this determines who enters the next round robin. Am I wrong? Am I wrong?
Smokey: Yeah, but I wasn't over. Gimme the marker Dude, I'm marking it 8.
Walter Sobchak: [pulls out a gun] Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
The Dude: Walter...
Walter Sobchak: You mark that frame an 8, and you're entering a world of pain.
Smokey: I'm not...
Walter Sobchak: A world of pain.
Smokey: Dude, he's your partner...
Walter Sobchak: [shouting] Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a shit about the rules? Mark it zero!
The Dude: They're calling the cops, put the piece away.
Walter Sobchak: Mark it zero!
[points gun in Smokey's face]
The Dude: Walter...
Walter Sobchak: [shouting] You think I'm fucking around here? Mark it zero!
Smokey: All right, it's fucking zero. Are you happy, you crazy fuck?
Walter Sobchak: ...It's a league game, Smokey.

#3533 2 years ago

You know his foot wasn't over the line in the movie right!

#3534 2 years ago

...and Gweedo shot first lol

#3535 2 years ago

One thing I have to say was that production line with the robots was crazy overkill man especially compared to Conswellia on the Stern line lol

I'd say watch out BBB there's about to be another 20K pin...underwear in the suitcase! lol

#3536 2 years ago
Quoted from gmkalos:

One thing I have to say was that production line with the robots was crazy overkill man ...

Are you referring to the early videos from DP that showed parts being shaped and playfields sprayed?

#3537 2 years ago
Quoted from gmkalos:

One thing I have to say was that production line with the robots was crazy overkill man especially compared to Conswellia on the Stern line lol
I'd say watch out BBB there's about to be another 20K pin...underwear in the suitcase! lol

HUH?

#3538 2 years ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

Are you referring to the early videos from DP that showed parts being shaped and playfields sprayed?

Yes did you see that! Must have been a Jackie Treehorn facility lol

#3539 2 years ago
Quoted from gmkalos:

Yes did you see that! Must have been a Jackie Treehorn facility lol

Yeah - those initial robotic parts production videos were impressive looking. However, the actual assembly line at ARA looked anything but automated. Reliant on human assemblers and way fewer stations than Stern uses in their process.

#3540 2 years ago

That robot was at Mirco not ARA or DP facility

#3541 2 years ago

I remember when this thread used to be safe and sane.

CliffHanger (resized).png

#3542 2 years ago
Quoted from Nikonokin:

If this goes south those 51 delivered machines are gonna be worth a ton. Number 52 here....can't believe I am 1 unit away from avoiding this fiasco. OVER THE LINE!!!

You and I both. Mine was was even closer, likely 150 miles to making home when the truck took a dump...Melissa promisssd I will get my dedicated achievers plaque! Good part, fully insured, the bad, having to wait. I've been through a lot with DP, I will continue to stand by their side and hope it all works out for the best!

IMG_0388 (resized).JPG

IMG_0391 (resized).JPG

#3543 2 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

That robot was at Mirco not ARA or DP facility

They did show off the wire form making robot.

#3544 2 years ago
Quoted from rlslick:

You and I both. Mine was was even closer, likely 150 miles to making home when the truck took a dump...Melissa promisssd I will get my dedicated achievers plaque! Good part, fully insured, the bad, having to wait. I've been through a lot with DP, I will continue to stand by their side and hope it all works out for the best!

#3545 2 years ago

Wow so of the 50-ish games shipped, we have two known to Pinside that were destroyed in transit. That's kind of a sad failure rate for the usa freight shipping system . Shipping pinballs is hard.

#3546 2 years ago
Quoted from rlslick:

Mine was was even closer, likely 150 miles to making home when the truck took a dump

Ouch. Call me an optimist but looks like a new cabinet could still save this game. Maybe some additional parts to fix the bowling alley and other damaged parts under the playfield.

#3547 2 years ago
Quoted from rlslick:

You and I both. Mine was was even closer, likely 150 miles to making home when the truck took a dump...Melissa promisssd I will get my dedicated achievers plaque! Good part, fully insured, the bad, having to wait. I've been through a lot with DP, I will continue to stand by their side and hope it all works out for the best!

Damn, that's bad luck.

#3548 2 years ago

That belongs in the pinball horror thread

#3549 2 years ago

$40k by Christmas! It's too bad that there must be equal suffering and joy to maintain the galaxy's equilibrium. Congrats and condolences to all those affected. Pinside has become the new online high rollers' gambling casino.

#3550 2 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

They did show off the wire form making robot.

That was not with ARA.

It's only good business to not make parts yourself in low volumes which can be made cheaper somewhere else. Buying a robot for making just 300+ wire forms? Would be crazy.

The Ara factory i saw twice was impressive and had a lot of machinery which was universal in use. In this way a CM can operate efficient for a big variety of customers. Bending wire forms and spraying paint on a wooden board isn't universal and thus can be better outsourced

Hence mirco for the playfield and company X for bending wire forms.

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