For the record, Rarehero, I did not actually think that eggbert52's veiled reference to your typo was an epic burn. My sarcasm appears to have slipped by the goalie.

A blood pressure raising post maybe but you're right, definitely not an epic burn.

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I wonder if Gary Stern ever saw post 38 in this thread: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/lebowski-presentation-at-expo#post-1975499

He has to be laughing at the current DPB situation. Then again, when he walked away from TBL, he probably knew it wasn't serious competition. But he, like most of us liked the bowling alley toy.

That video is well worth another watch.

Gary with a mixed drink in his hand; it never gets old.

There's a fairly serious contract dispute, which almost certainly isn't going to resolve itself without at very least the threat of legal action.

I think you know enough to realise that what you want from DP - full disclosure - is absolutely not going to, or at least shouldn't happen, at this juncture.

Let's hope it's not another beloved theme....

Hey guys, let's stop the personal attacks. I'm on my way to work and won't be able to wade through the last few pages of this thread right now but just in passing I see a lot of mean spirited posting that should not be happening.

I or another mod will look at these posts today but in the mean time can we stop attacking each other? Thanks.

I just spoke with Melissa at Coin Taker. I called her with every intention of asking for a refund. However, I decided to hang in there for the following reasons:
First, Melissa claims that only two people have asked for refunds and their spots were immediately filled by those on the waiting list. She also claims that there are still people on the waiting list that would gladly take my spot. Secondly, she claims that ARA is impossible to deal with. Even if DP paid the extra $1,000, there were still unreasonable demands ARA was making. Thirdly, she hinted that possibly a company here in the states could possibly get involved (please don't be Stern, please don't be Stern!). Finally, I personally picked a very nice TZ yesterday, so waiting a while for TBL is just fine with me. I did let Melissa know that the lack of communication from everyone involved is quite disappointing, though I thanked her for always taking the time to visit. Just a quick update for what it's worth.

Common sense says American Pinball

There is one pinball machine company, possibly two, that is producing games at scale in the states; Stern and JJP. There are CMs like CGC that have some experience as well.

Everyone has pros/cons. Ultimately what I would hope so is working with someone who has produced games at scale, ideally not just a boutique operation, and certainly not one that just was founded months ago and never has released a title.

I imagine another company would be used to produce new boards correct? Did she say something to make you immediately think Stern? Stern doesn't produce boards right?

Not in house - but Stern designs electronics along with some manufacturing partner.

Producing and assembling PCB boards is a commodity task that is outsourced by virtually everyone because its not cost effective to do it yourself if component assembly is not one of your main focuses.

The engineering of the system is something you want to keep closer to the chest... build? Contract out without even blinking.

I figured that was how it worked.

I would imagine they could revert back to the original PROC designs. I believe the latest designs use a PROC plugged into the big under playfield PCBs. This should let the code stay essentially the same and then they would just have different assembly instructions.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

I'm pretty sure that DP posting in a public forum will do nothing to help resolve this situation. Wether resolution happens between the two parties or in court a data dump here will be to DP's disadvantage.

"Weather resolution happens???" How are people supposed to take your opinion seriously? I'm like really??

I bet you can't even.

Clearly DP and ARA are deep in a dispute and cannot discuss things. But, others in the know can drop and update now and again. It's all good. Hang in there and see what happens.

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It sounds like Melissa just did exactly that.

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Eye uhgree!

What a Horror Story!

Sorry for all supporters and there lost Money

BOP 2.0 was already a disaster in organization/handling and it was just a PC + speakerpanel

Now that is a premature conclusion. I would wait and see what happens. This may take some time, but I hope they can work it out, as this is in general not good for pinball.

Easy Question. Those factory vids we saw along the way. Where were those filmed?
Mof

Pretty sure that was at ARA.

I made them and they were shot at the Ara facilities in a city called Aalten.

Ara Website http://nl.www.ara-aalten.nl

Here also DP clearly mentioned the production facility is ARA http://www.dutchpinball.com/contact

So hope this ends the false story about DP claiming to own a factory. ARA is contracted by DP to built the TBL. Not only boards but complete product.

Oh I didn't know that. That makes this conflict sound more serious.

Actually it was a bit more than that. Speaker panel, LCD display panel, new speakers, amplifier, P-ROC board, mini-PC, startup/shutdown controller plus the various cables.

Well DP - you lost another customer today! My order has been cancelled.

You're inability to communicate with your customers is a slap in the face to the people who have supported you.

Best of luck to all Dudes on getting your games!

I do think it's all going to work out eventually. I was taught my expensive lesson about paying in full up front many years ago by a tile installer. It's kept me out of trouble ever since, but i must admit, I was pretty damn pissed about it back then. I'm deposit only so I'm not pissed about this, but i totally understand how you pre-order guys feel.

I never thought Alien (or even Magic Girl) would ship before TBL preorders.

I just hope the code progresses to near or final completion during this down time.

still no word from DP after this fiasco unfolded is pretty disheartening.....

Maybe, maybe not. I think there are actually two issues here. There are the hostage games, which could ship right now if the parties worked their shit out. Then there are the ~200 unbuilt games. Even if they work something out to release the hostage games - will ARA want to build the rest? Probably not, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual with Dutch. So then - can they find someone else to build the rest?

Neither have shipped before the first batch of TBL.

(Not trying to find an excuse for DP)

Even then, I can't see it being a smooth process. You're lucky because your machine is mostly likely already assembled and packed. They just need to ship it whereas we don't know when #100-#300 will be completed.

Someone mentioned they're still waiting on a bowling mech replacement. I hope this isn't an indication of the challenges we will face in the future with any "not-off-the-shelf" replacement parts. Communication from DP is already bad enough.

Agree. Magic Girl only consists of 25 games but you get my point. I'll be bummed if Planetary, Spooky, or even Stern announce and ship a new game before we receive our TBLs. Life is too short, so I'd like to be alive if/when they get around to shipping this game. I wouldn't feel so strongly if they provided consistent communication or didn't collect full payment way in advance.

So has anyone done the math on how much these delays are impacting the business plan? What is DP's cash churn rate? Do they even have an office outside a principal's residence? I sure hope they are still selling BOP2.0's. The idea of idling your entire business for 4 months at this key time in the product release should be very disturbing.

Didn't you expect this? It's a new private company making it's first pin. There was always a high chance this was the only pin they would ever make IF they were able to make it.

You're not buying a Stern which has a strong past and future.

This is why I canceled my deposit spot. I could have waited another 2 years (or never) or whatever it will now take to get those near #300 (as I was), I didn't need the $1000 and I know I could have gotten my deposit back at any time. But...there were a lot of complaints of issues with the machines and very poor communication from DP that made me decide that I didn't even want the game anymore, despite it being a dream theme and an excellent pin overall.

Nobody knows how strong Stern's future is and that includes Stern.

How so? I bought one in the second batch, the process was pretty painless, the wait for manufacture wasn't that long, and the product is great.

That's true but it's definitely stronger than a startup making their first machine with parts, customer service and labor issues.

Not every new pin company is gonna be like Spooky. It's common sense.

We all know that if Stern were to go out of business, it would mean there's not a single manufacturer of pinball machines left. They are as close to a blue chip as we have.