So it was a continuation or riff on the narrative that the boards are the hang up, gotcha. Like I said...

As for people filling in the blanks, bully on Dutch. They can rectify that but yet more silence. The last I checked, this is a message board that is filled with literally 50% speculation. Speculation on prices, game releases and you guessed it, the health and viability of the industry in a broad sense and a manufacturer in the narrow sense. If Dutch doesn't like people speculating, they can resolve it.

Exactly.

Just because ARA says they are "owed" money, doesn't mean this is about money or DP not having money. It could simply mean that ARA is greedy. Or it could mean that the contract isn't written explicitly enough, or that both sides have a different interpretation of the contract, which is EXTREMELY common. There are literally infinite possibilities about what "could" be, there is no way of knowing if dutch closing it's doors or not. The facts are, many people pre-ordered a game. Some people got their games. Many people didn't (yet). Dutch didn't want to cause a mass panic (just like this) about an issue they probably can resolve. Everything else is literally just noise and drama including the letter from ARA. If you want to get out, cool, that's your prerogative. But I guarantee you that lots of delays, etc. from many products you buy including pinball machines are from similar situations that are adequately covered up or glossed over.

How could ARA possibly know whether Dutch was "able to meet its payment obligations"? That whole letter is really strange. But could be a lost in translation moment.

It's always about money.

Can you check again?

It's down there somewhere, let me take another look.

I'm not sure where the disconnect is here. It is about money. End of story. You will not find anywhere where I said that it was a valid claim or not a valid claim. In fact, I said everything is speculation. Don't get it twisted though. It is about money, valid claim or not. Dutch's email specifically stated the production stopped over a dispute about, you guessed it, money. The relationship is in such disrepair, over disputed money, they are seeking out another vendor to build the games. People can continue to conflate the issue and try to absolve Dutch but in the end, they are the stewards of the money collected and they alone allowed the situation to degrade to this point. Dutch sourced ARA, Dutch, I would hope, vetted ARA. Dutch, I would hope, entered into a solid contract. Dutch, I would hope, had a lawyer review and revise said contract.

I sign many many contracts every year and without exception, there is literally zero gray area in the contracts I sign. Claims of additional costs are addressed and remedies are enumerated. Default of contracts are addressed and remedies enumerated. Scopes of work and responsibilities are detailed, addressed and remedies enumerated. The fact Dutch seems to be willing to walk suggests the contract on this issue isn't in their favor. When I have a dispute, the first place I consult is the contract. If I'm in the right I press, if I'm in the wrong I shut up and take my lumps.

Wow, sorry. I just busted Flynn' balls about condensing thought and then I ramble on.

No

It was a discussion about the viability moving the entire game production to another contractor. The 'board issue' as stated by DP and slang in this thread was a claim of faulty boards... not an issue over not owning everything needed to migrate to another vendor. Which is why none of it is dependent on DP's lies around faulty boards.

Since then someone has added that Jaap says ARA 'owns the design' - which is.. mindboggling.

You have to fight fire with fire so we'll send our own Dutch to figure this out.

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Ok, so semantics it is. You win. Add me to the list of people not willing to engage you in the future. I figure I should throw in some head banging emoticons to show how frustrated I am too.

I was always told by Cointaker that there was a big company backing up DP and that's why it was never a worry. Hence my comments, they were from a good source. However, I'm now wondering if that was true to begin with.

Told ya!

Seems simple right? Amazing how the simple math gets lost in all of the BS.

As for Flynnie, what can you say? There is no math to figure that one out.

Ya know, I have NO dog in this fight - other than to say this is one massive screwed-up mess.
Such a damn shame.

I just wanted to add the following 'two cents' to the many comments and opinions about this situation:

I worked for 12+ years for a global company, and we had sales staff based in the Netherlands.
Really nice people, wonderful - but my old employer discovered the court and legal system is a total nightmare (compared to our system here in the States). I recall that we spent countless dollars and several expensive corporate lawyers, just trying to get one inept sales person 'let go.' It was basically a 'contract for life' employment system at the time - some quirky crap about BOTH the employer AND the employee had to 'agree' together to the terms of termination, be paid what EACH felt was appropriate for years of service, and the employee could not be 'besmirched.'
I seem to even recall the company had to assist (pay?) to help him find similar new employment. Whatever it all was, my ex-employer was tied up in their courts there for more than FIVE years fighting this.

If anyone here thinks a legal action between DP and ARA will be swiftly settled, with settlement or damages awarded in a timely manner (as us Americans perceive it) or with anything resembling a 'quick process,' then go grab a bag of popcorn. Working this through their legal system could take YEARS.

More insult=more injury.

Where does DP or TPF say they are promoting TBL? We only said Jaap would be giving a DP update, talking to guests, and playing pinball.

Courts anywhere can be slow and delay is a tactic one or both sides often uses very intentionally. There has been a bit of Dutch bashing here and having spent a fair bit of time there I think it is totally unwarranted. Great place and people.

This sounds like a classic situation where parties (DP and ARA) went into it hoping everything would work out. It didn't and now they have to litigate the contract. That is never pleasant for anyone except maybe the lawyers who happily bill away by the hour.

Everything is all fukked up here Dude......

Clearly DP have been economical with the truth.

But, does any company tell customers the truth if things are going pear shaped? More like move to damage limitation mode.

Boy, over the last few years we have seen this big time in the pinball world.

Ha ha, I see what you did there...good one.

So I let this first sink in for a day or two

The way I interprete the letter from DP is easy enough. They had a contract with ARA to produce TBL for a certain amount of money within a certain period.

ARA failed to produce within the agreed timeframe and likely occurred more costs as they calculated. They are now trying apparently to do a breech of contract and ask for more money. However, 1) I don't think that the markup on the pre-order pricing allows this kind of extra costs suddenly and 2) this is just not how it works. Ara should eat the extra costs themselves. After all they calculated themselves and agreed to a certain price.

Yes, the PCB lie was, allthough I understand it, a bad move. But ARA is here suddenly asking more money. DP is not in the wrong in that point. DP wanted to avoid hysteria and did a white lie on the PCB. Yes, looking back wrong wrong idea. I suspect they thought ARA would come to their senses quickly as their is a solid contract in place and everything could go back to normal quickly.

So their is now the demand for extra money and DP is not willing to do this which I accept and understand. This is not only concerning the current 40 pins but also ofcourse the already delivered 50 pins. So we are talking of at least 90x1000 eur which is serious money. Pls do note the NSN states 1000+. I hear nobody on the +sign. For me this means it's more than eur 1000 and for those who think the markup on the preorder is more than eur 1000 keep on dreaming. Plus markup is something else as profit. Expenses like rent-flights etc are paid from this markup.

Than customer paying extra. Paying ARA is not the solution. They don't own the License and can't resell it. So if you pony up your 1000+ eur DP should still pay their part for ARA to release it. So it should go via DP. It is feasible? Don't know. Can only work if everybody agrees I guess.

For European residents, on top of your 1000 you have to add also 21% VAT I guess.

For what's it worth to you: I expect that DP is able to pay the original agreed pricing. So no financial issue if everything goes according to the original plan.

Is another CM feasible? Don't know. Perhaps for number 2 but who will step up and buy no 2 if TBL is not resolved? So it must be a deal in which in some way TBL buyers are helped to.

I know Jaap and Barry as passionate pinballers who started DP as a dream for them. If it would be only for the money they would have accepted much more preorders. Remember they stopped accepting preorders at a certain date. They wanted to ship first. Would moneyscammers do this? No.

We are in for some serious money but for them there is much more at stake. I think some or many of you don't care about this but their passion for the hobby will make sure that they will do everything to make this right. They love pinball after all !! Is this passion a Garantuee for succes ? Unfortunately not but you can bet they will really really try to make this right

My thoughts are with Barry and Jaap and Koen. I know them much better as many of you, consider them as friends, and for what's it worth to you : I know they really really care and are hurt to. They do their best and are human like you and me.

And yes, I have a horse in this race.

Not sure which games you are referring to, but JJP did not build games that are in ANY top 10, not on Pinside, not on IPDB, except for your personal top 10 apparently. And to be fair: despite the fact I have a WOZ myself and I consider it the most beautiful pin ever built, I do not consider it top 10 material because of the gameplay. And The Hobbit, well, that lacks gameplay and is less beautiful than WOZ, so that's not even top 50 material IMHO...

I am not saying JJP is a fiasco, I am saying that they barely made it. They were very close to a fiasco. If they hadn't found an invester, all Hobbits would have probably ended up like Jpop's pinballs: just an imagination. And again there would be a lot of money vaporized... Don't get me wrong: I am VERY happy that did not happen, because IMO there are too many of these fiasco's already going down.

And about DP telling their white lie about the board problem: I can understand their decision to do so. If they would have told the truth, this thread would even be longer, discussing bankruptcy and money problems. Would that have been better?

It would be great if both parties could resolve this issue. If not it seems that both sides would take a much bigger financial loss if they don't. The only option I see is for them is to liquidate the parts they own. In my opinion that would be a much bigger loss than if they fulfilled their obligation and worked out a plan together to recoup the losses though more sales or another product. Hopefully in the end we will all win. Making a large profit is not as important as taking a big loss, unless you have a lot of money and a great tax person.

Pimp77 may be referring to the RePlay Magazine equipment earnings ratings where the machines are in the top ten.

If you think there is zero gray area in the contracts that you sign, but yet you live in VA like me.. which is a caselaw state. Which means that regardless of what the contract says, there may be caselaw buried deep in the books that makes your contract irrelevant. The fact that you think it is rock solid, is irrelevant. And that's my point.

No need to get defensive. Do you have $8500 tied into this game? We shouldn't have to get "a DP update" via a trade show. It would be nice to get updates directly, especially when you have $8500 invested in the game.

I had to go to Pinball Expo in Chicago to learn they didn't have the rights to the original music. This pissed off many preorder owners because they waited to announce it at the show instead of communicating it to preorder customers before the general public.

And I still stand by my original statement. DP should stay should stay the F*ck home until they ship all their games. "Playing pinball and talking to guests" shouldn't be their priority right now.

Technically it was a board issue; i.e. we can't get our boards from ARA without paying them more money.

The top 100 on pinside is hardly objective. It is created by a bunch of dudes with huge nostalgia for 90's B/W games and a large portion of pinsiders aggressively protect those games. WOZ is a top 5 game IMO but nostalgia is hard to beat.

The team at DP is super talented. No doubt about it. Programming is definitely one of their strong points, however, the same can't be said for their communication. You (@Rensh) were the actual one providing us with updates/videos, so thank you again!

I think the majority of preorder customers would've remained patient and cool with this delay had the truth been revealed sooner. Radio silence and white lies create speculation and doubt.

Of course you can try to twist contracts to reflect however you want to inturpret them. If not there wouldn't be a need for contract law. The fact you reference case law is precisely my point. Contracts are built on 100's of years of case law president. Like is said, the language is black and white. Period. That is why I very clearly stated (no less than 3 times) contracts have remedies for disputes and misunderstanding written into them such as binding mediation. I was never suggesting black and white contract language means two parties can't and won't interpret the same contract differently. If Dutch signed a poorly worded contract or didn't have a lawyer review it, that's on them. And yes, I sign $4-7 million dollars of contracts yearly for the last 25 years. In fact, I just signed one for $429,000 the other day. You know damn well what I meant and want to argue minutia like Flynn, gotcha. Add another one to the non-engagement group.

Why do people keep referring to a "white lie" here? If your girlfriend asks you if she looks fat in her college jeans and you say "no" to make her feel good, that's a white lie. This seems ... different.

It's unfortunate that pre-orders and crowd funding are part of this equation. If customers' money wasn't at risk, this would be some corporate internal dealings, holding up product, let them work it out however they can.

But that is impossible since a lot of people have significant amounts of money on the line and what is happening.

People are very forgiving! If DP just comes on here…comes clean, explains the situation and options, many would be ready to help.

And if my grandmother had wheels she would be a wagon!

Giddyup!

And yet you still don't understand what you're saying. Glad to be on your non engagement list! Also I'm not impressed with your numbers. Good day sir

"Pre-Ordering Pinball"
The thrilling and suspenseful an emotional roller coaster
that in the end will take a few days off of your life...
But remember, that's at the end of your life...

Some times it will take a few of your hard earned dollars as well.

Is it any different though? What if this were the 3rd batch of games and you all were just waiting for delivery for inventory of a product that had already been shipping?

The only real difference is buying from inventory on hand.. vs inventory on order.

This dispute really doesn't have much to do with crowd funding or startups.... except for maybe the idea of a new relationship between two businesses.

These kinds of disputes could come up at any time.

They never did with phil-gate.. I don't expect them to here either Clarity on their position besides one or two liners would be great.. but it seems like lawyers and communications people are in short supply in the Netherlands or something

Damn straight.

Definitions of "white lie":
1.) A harmless or trivial lie, especially one told to avoid hurting someone's feelings.
2.) A minor or unimportant lie, esp one uttered in the interests of tact or politeness.

If, as has been alleged, Dutch Pinball deliberately misled its customers regarding why fully paid for manufactured games have not been shipping for months now, it is definitely different from a "white lie".

If they weren't shutdown since November it might have been fine. Bad spot to be in.

Perhaps the world should start a crowdfunding to give mediatraining to us Dutch

Impossible to keep up with important threads when there are five pages of posts in one day, 99% of them speculation. Talk less and let people with actual information speak. Signal > noise. And now I'm part of the problem. Damn it.

It's always the most intelligent ones who feel as though they need to interject name calling into an argument. Right skins?

Yep I melted the main harness of my monster bash, but I also did a complete restoration, and documented my mistakes for the community to see. What good have you brought us?

I also have sold startups and manage a 300 million contract right now. After my own 25 years regardless of what a contract says business is about the relationship between two people. The contract can be bare bones with a tight relationship or iron clad with poor ones, either way the contract means nothing.

Good business is about good relationships not iron clad contracts. And still we know nothing of the situation, and nobody can say what it's about... even money.

Show me evidence.. until then..

I might be in for a few of these to help....

20170217_204750 (resized).jpg

Wow, all this back and forth on the tightness of one's contract and remedy this and enumerate that..go for it, but I've found that in business if one party wants to fuck the other, they pretty much go right ahead and fuck them.
Remember this..contracts do NOT guarantee performance. They only get pulled out when things have already gone bad. And if things have already gone bad, then the only people having fun at that point are lawyers.

I said I wasn't going to engage you any longer, however, I will admit I took a potshot at you about the dbag thing. In my defense, that was only after you diminished my experience handling contracts; several times. If you want to play the victim, so be it. I am man enough to admit it was a potshot and I didn't need to add it to make my point so for that, I apologize.