(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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There are 11140 posts in this topic. You are on page 64 of 223.
#3151 2 years ago
Quoted from heryworm:

I called Melissa from cointaker yesterday and ask her if I can use my deposit money for TBL for a different game. She said yes, so I bought a Full Throttle. After seeing all these comments, I don't see this game anytime soon hitting the market. So, I hate what is going on overseas, but 3 years since the announcement and still no game? Sad.

Full Throttle...seriously...get out of this thread

#3152 2 years ago
Quoted from kidchrisso:

No thanks...I want to deal with a US company that has a refundable deposit.

The first part does not describe Nitro (in Canada) but it is a refundable deposit (they refunded mine today). Plus, Tommy is way faster at responding to emails than Melissa at Cointaker in my experience.

#3153 2 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Perhaps the Dutch are just very aggressive businesspeople?

In business I've found them confident, creative problem solvers and maybe a bit rebellious (ie not always accepting of the status quo).

#3154 2 years ago

If Dutch was cash strapped from October onward... why would they not be out raising cash by selling more games... or parts from their games... taking deposits... selling earlier slots... anything... anything to raise funds?

Instead they have been having distributors hold money instead of give it to dp... they turn people away trying to buy... they've been ramping cointaker up with BoP production.

It doesn't seem in tune with a company that needs cash for the last 3.5 months to avoid total shutdown.

Wonder how long it's going to be till we get the next juicy bit.

Stern may not be putting out hits... but man this company drama is a hobby in itself!

#3155 2 years ago
Quoted from kidchrisso:

I got back in with Cointaker after Philgate....I want to get a second one to sell in 5 years...lol

Dang Cheech, you are smoking some good shit

#3156 2 years ago
Quoted from TRAMD:

The first part does not describe Nitro (in Canada) but it is a refundable deposit (they refunded mine today). Plus, Tommy is way faster at responding to emails than Melissa at Cointaker in my experience.

The last few games he was selling were "non refundable deposit"

18
#3157 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Dang Cheech, you are smoking some good shit

On a day where we found out TBL is in trouble and J-pops games may actually be on their way, I think a big fatty is in order.

#3158 2 years ago

They aren't total DBs like Jpop and Kulek

That's why they haven't pressed to F people over by raising more money with more lies

Any rational person with any sense would have to realize shipping 50 games or whatever it was in 3 1/2 isn't going to feed your family

Maybe somebody comes in and fixes this disaster. I doubt it

#3159 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Dang Cheech, you are smoking some good shit

Come on ice...does Texas STILL just have the skunk coming across the boarder these days...

#3160 2 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

On a day where we found out TBL is in trouble and J-pops games may actually be on their way, I think a big fatty is in order.

Isn't that the F ing truth! How did the stars align on that one?

So many horrible pos liars in pinball.

On the flip side, a lot of great people as well

#3161 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

How did the stars align on that one?

They did a few orbits around Uranus and lined right up.

#3162 2 years ago

Let's say ARA is trying to screw DP out of $1000 per game. That's what, 12% of the retail price and say 20% of the cost price of a game. While that's shitty, does DP think they won't lose at least that much switching manufacturers and taking refunds because of the delay? Honestly if it were my company I might eat the cost and call Stern or someone else in the meantime to keep games rolling off the line.

While TBL is awesome (played at Pintastic) I thought it was so weird the company did crazy marketing parties and spent money on other stuff like that when that's not what sells games. Seemed like a waste and a sign of bad management. How many crazy launch events did Spooky have? Pinball is damn expensive to make so you better count your beans to be sure.

#3163 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

They aren't total DBs like Jpop and Kulek
That's why they haven't pressed to F people over by raising more money with more lies
Any rational person with any sense would have to realize shipping 50 games or whatever it was in 3 1/2 isn't going to feed your family
Maybe somebody comes in and fixes this disaster. I doubt it

If I was still an early achiever and knew that it would cost another grand to get my game....fuck it, what is ARA's account number...payment sent, better then losing $8500. I'd forgive Dutch...but never forget.

#3164 2 years ago

It looks like Kidcrisso's going Dutch again.

#3165 2 years ago
Quoted from kidchrisso:

If I was still an early achiever and knew that it would cost another grand to get my game....fuck it, what is ARA's account number...payment sent, better than losing $8500. I'd forgive Dutch...but never forget.

Go ahead and send them the cash and let us know what happens.

18
#3166 2 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

I'm sure we all will survive this latest blip.
Remember Philgate?

I remember when that idiot got up on stage at Expo and started cursing and tearing into Gary Stern stating that 'Gary sez he's not in the pinball business; instead he sez that he's in the manufacturing business. If he thinks he manufacturers pinball machines, he may as well make a casket and lay down in it as his Company is dead. We're Dutch Pinball yadda, yadda'

I knew right then and there that despite the cool toys on the sample machines, there was no way in hell I'd give that arrogant asshole a Dollar/Gilder/Euro of mine.

#3167 2 years ago

I'm hanging in to see what happens. I have a $1,000 deposit with Nitro and I talked to Tommy today. He said I could get my money back anytime, so I decided to wait and see how things shake out.

I think in the short term they need to find some common ground and get the games already made out the door. Long term I think they need to find a new partner to build their games. Maybe JJP could do it.

#3168 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

I remember when that idiot got up on stage at Expo and started cursing and tearing into Gary Stern stating that 'Gary sez he's not in the pinball business; instead he sez that he's in the manufacturing business. If he thinks he manufacturers pinball machines, he may as well make a casket and lay down in it as his Company is dead. We're Dutch Pinball yadda, yadda'
I knew right then and there that despite the cool toys on the sample machines, there was no way in hell I'd give that arrogant asshole a Dollar/Gilder/Euro of mine.

I remember that crap like it was yesterday and couldn't agree more. There were plenty of defenders at the time though and I'm sure there still are.

#3169 2 years ago
Quoted from kidchrisso:

No thanks...I want to deal with a US company that has a refundable deposit.

Wouldn't even do this.

#3170 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

I knew right then and there that despite the cool toys on the sample machines, there was no way in hell I'd give that arrogant asshole a Dollar/Gilder/Euro of mine.

I'm just F ing thankful Phil did what he did with the refunds on the way out the door. Got my $$ back

What a F ed up Expo that was.

#3171 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

he's in the manufacturing business.

Heck yeah he is! And we are rockin' and rollin' on a recently manufactured Batman66!

10
#3172 2 years ago
Quoted from kidchrisso:

I'm just waiting for one of you fools to bounce out of Cointake's deposit so I can be in on two of them...

Why the fuck would people give these upstart company's money until they are able to prove they can mass produce games. Just sit back & wait it out and buy one once they are ready to ship. Seems like some of you haven't learned anything from past situations.

#3173 2 years ago
Quoted from smassa:

Why the fuck would people give these upstart company's money until they are able to prove they can mass produce games.

They give them the old "limited production" scare of their dream themes, and human nature does the rest.

#3174 2 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

They give them the old "limited production" scare of their dream themes, and human nature does the rest.

Maybe there will be a "Bowling Ball Black Edition" of TBL...

#3175 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Maybe there will be a "Bowling Ball Black Edition" of TBL...

That will happen when JJP decides to take this fiasco over. One fiasco for another.

#3176 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

That will happen when JJP decides to take this fiasco over. One fiasco for another.

Say what you will about JJP, but they are far from a fiasco my friend. JPOP, Predator, Vonnie D, Dutch? Now those are fiascos!

#3177 2 years ago

JJP is the best pinball company right now, IMO!

#3178 2 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

Say what you will about JJP, but they are far from a fiasco my friend. JPOP, Predator, Vonnie D, Dutch? Now those are fiascos!

Ok, one liar for another? You are correct, JJP doesn't belong in the class above, not even close.

But they are a "fiasco" in some sense of the word. Been there, done that.

Hopefully, they keep providing a good alternative to Stern.

#3179 2 years ago
Quoted from TRAMD:

JJP is the best pinball company right now, IMO!

Quality wise id have to agree. Now if they'd make a regular body, fast playing game with a theme I like - take my $.

#3180 2 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Quality wise id have to agree. Now if they'd make a regular body, fast playing game with a theme I like - take my $.

I prefer widebody games and love their first two themes! They also have excellent support.

If they made a Justice League or Superman theme, I'd buy two of the top model.

#3181 2 years ago

Just some guesstimates ...

DP has a contract for a fix price for the games. They put that money on the side to pay for games when shipped.
It took extra time to redesign and tool, so let's estimate 2 ARA-folks working a year = 300K. Here's your 1K extra a game.
First 50 games get shipped out, DP pays 325k (6.5K a unit) ... but not the extra 50K asked for by ARA.
DP says this wasn't accounted for or agreed upon.
ARA says we told you it be more work (did they quote and was it signed off ?).
Shit hits the fan ...

ARA has the rest of the machines in stock and ready for shipping, but is not willing. "Let's take DP hostage and get them in trouble. We'll force them to pay. We have the power!" ARA can not sell the machines themselves, because this would be a breach of contract probably.

DP sees that ARA has the machines ready for shipping. Has not provisioned the extra 300K, so they can pay the machines, but not the premium demanded by ARA. DP does not allow themself to be strong-armed into paying more. So they do some math and think ... "It will cost ARA 1.625K (250 * 6.5K) to let them stand in their facility. Let's see who can hold this position the longest. ARA has much more to loose. We have the power!"

So we are at a stand-off to see which club has the biggest balls and can hang in the longest (while both are searching for alternative routes).

DP has not communicated correctly to their customer-base --> Stupid move.
Customer-base has reached out to ARA. This gave ARA new means to put the pressure on and force DP to pay the premium. DP is also getting a bad rep because of these direct contacts with ARA.

DP still doesn't want to pay the premium, because if they do it now ... their business-plan needs to be rewritten AND what premium will ARA bring out for machine n° 2. Trust is lost. Can they still work together in the future ?

DP has not been asking money all around --> Good sign.

As always in a relation-ship, there are 2 sides.
Nobody (unless DP & ARA) knows the whole truth, and both those parties are coloring the facts to their truth.

The cat is out of the bag now, harm is done. So, in my view, DP should start crisis-communication on a day-to-day basis with verifiable information to their customer-base. That is the only way that customers will have your back (if you're in the right offcourse) and help in pushing through. Day-to-day ? That's right! Day-to-day!

PS: I ordered TBL with chrome trim & rug, but backed out when 4K downpayment was asked. If I don't get something in return of equal value, I don't let go of my money. I never do downpayments (not on a car, not on a house, ... never).

#3182 2 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

Say what you will about JJP, but they are far from a fiasco my friend. JPOP, Predator, Vonnie D, Dutch? Now those are fiascos!

Oh yeah, that is why an investor had to step in to keep the place running...

In my opinion Stern is the only company that's firm in the saddle. We can discuss their price plan, the way they release their pins with beta software, etc. but they are delivering "in time", they communicate and they produce a decent quality. Why? Because they have have years of experience. They got on the pinball manufacturing train running!

Dutch Pinball, Jersey Jack, Heighway, Spooky, Jpop all have one thing in common: they love pinball and got so excited about it that they decided to build a machine themselves. They all underestimated the responsibilities, problems, challenges, work and finances that comes with actually building a pinball machine in large numbers. Some came out better than others, some straight out lied to their customers about licenses and reasons of delay, some told a few white lies to keep the public calm, it's all in the eye of the beholder. I think all have a pinball heart and that might just be the problem here. Stern has survived because an investor stepped in. JJP followed and barely survived. Money became top priority and let's face it: the highest priority for a company is making money, not building a beautiful product or having fun doing it.

"Achteraf kun je een koe in zijn kont kijken". Try Google Translate on that. It's a (strange) Dutch proverb that translates to "hindsight is 20/20". We all know what went wrong and where it could be better. We all could have done better (yeah, right). I bet if you ask DP, Heighway, Spooky and Jpop if they still would have entered their pinball adventure with the knowledge they have now, most of them would smack you in the face...

-1
#3183 2 years ago

I have had several emails back & forth this morning with Jaap,

Let's try and keep our shit together for the next few weeks.

#3184 2 years ago

The time for that is passed. Every day they don't come clean they dig themselves a bigger PR hole.

#3185 2 years ago

I wrote a bunch of emails yesterday and DP did respond to each of them (which was nice and I appreciate that). The is the summary of the situation I am in:

1. No refunds will be issued at this point (duh).

2. They are considering legal action against ARA to get our money back and damages for the DP name.

3. During this time, they will talk to other "possible" manufacturers.

4. There is no possibility of paying ARA extra for the completed games. They feel that will "weaken (their) position" against ARA.

I guess all we can do now is wait. Hopefully they will have some more answers in Texas.

Brian

#3187 2 years ago

Here's some "alternate facts":

They got the first few games out and began building the next batch. A board problem (and maybe some other problems) and subsequent re-design was identified that was not foreseen when the original costing was agreed on. ARA said they need an extra €1000 to build the games to these new specs. Dutch disagreed and ARA refused to release the 2nd run of games until the new price was agreed on.

So in Dutch's defense, it could have been a board issue originally but it has since morphed into something else. ARA are clearly trying to adjust the agreement terms to account for the new specs, but possibly also using the board change as an excuse to revise their original quote which was too cheap.

This will most likely be just another bump in the road for Dutch. They'll pay ARA the extra for the games that are already produced (or win legal action) and move on to find another manufacturer. Or they'll just give up, refund anyone who has paid up and the few TBL's already delivered will become the result of yet another pinball legend.

I could be completely wrong.

10
#3188 2 years ago

And I can't understand why ARA bypassed Dutch and began communicating directly with Dutch's customers. Really unprofessional.

#3189 2 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Here's some "alternate facts":
They got the first few games out and began building the next batch. A board problem (and maybe some other problems) and subsequent re-design was identified that was not foreseen when the original costing was agreed on. ARA said they need an extra €1000 to build the games to these new specs. Dutch disagreed and ARA refused to release the 2nd run of games until the new price was agreed on.
So in Dutch's defense, it could have been a board issue originally but it has since morphed into something else. ARA are clearly trying to adjust the agreement terms to account for the new specs, but possibly also using the board change as an excuse to revise their original quote which was too cheap.
This will most likely be just another bump in the road for Dutch. They'll pay ARA the extra for the games that are already produced (or win legal action) and move on to find another manufacturer. Or they'll just give up, refund anyone who has paid up and the few TBL's already delivered will become the result of yet another pinball legend.
I could be completely wrong.

Logic suggests refunds just aren't possible as that money is used to build games and many games are built and stuck with ARA.

#3190 2 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

A board problem (and maybe some other problems) and subsequent re-design was identified that was not foreseen when the original costing was agreed on. ARA said they need an extra €1000 to build the games to these new specs.

Wasn't ARA also the company manufacturing the boards that are supposed to have had the issue?

Aaron
FAST Pinball

#3191 2 years ago

ARA did say in the letter they sent that there were no board issues, and someone else mentioned that DP stated that it was something said to buy time...

#3192 2 years ago
Quoted from JustLikeMe:

ARA did say in the letter they sent that there were no board issues, and someone else mentioned that DP stated that it was something said to buy time...

My bad, I missed the "alternate facts" heading.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

#3193 2 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

4. There is no possibility of paying ARA extra for the completed games. They feel that will "weaken (their) position" against ARA.

That doesn't make sense to me. If that's the case, they should be in front of a judge ( I have zero clue how their court system works) asking to have the games released and then fight out the details of who owes what in court. I just can't wrap my head around the fact they're willing to walk away and start over. That makes ZERO business sense. I have learned in business being right doesn't always mean being right. This does not pass the sniff test at all.

Has anyone contacted ARA and asked them to clarify their stance on the money they're owed? Has anyone asked them if this $1,000 is above and beyond the negotiated amount and if so why they feel it is owed? I would be interested to see how it jives against what Dutch is saying.

#3194 2 years ago

I would much rather they get their paid in full customers (that can't get refunds) a game as their first priority. Rather protecting their good name. Deal with that after some of these folks are made whole.

But, I do not know all of the details and I am sure there is way more to the story than is just written in some emails back and fourth.

#3195 2 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

I would much rather they get their paid in full customers (that can't get refunds) a game as their first priority. Rather protecting their good name. Deal with that after some of these folks are made whole.
But, I do not know all of the details and I am sure there is way more to the story than is just written in some emails back and fourth.

"Rather protecting their good name"........ LLLLLLMFAO!!!!!!!

#3196 2 years ago

Fuck it dude,let's go bowling. I didn't watch my buddies die face down in the muck, for my pinball to get tied up in litigation.

#3197 2 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

I would much rather they get their paid in full customers (that can't get refunds) a game as their first priority. Rather protecting their good name. Deal with that after some of these folks are made whole.
But, I do not know all of the details and I am sure there is way more to the story than is just written in some emails back and fourth.

I agree. That's what's so confounding about the whole sorted mess. Dutch is willing to throw the baby out with the bath water and start over. If they (Dutch) truely feel they are at an impasse why aren't they telling their customers, "hang tight. We're a 100% in the right and we are heading to court straight away to get this moving." Instead they're looking for a new manufacturer and leaving everything worked on behind. Who does that?

#3198 2 years ago

I never heard of a court order that demands "performance" relating to human or manufacturing performance.

#3199 2 years ago

I'm not sure what that was supposed to mean but I am familiar with contract law (US that is) and there are most certainly remedies that can be applied by the court (whether enumerated in the contract by the two contracting parties or not) to get the project off of center and back on track. Most often with the threat of damages payable to the aggrieved party.
How many companies with a contract and believe they are in the right opt to incur the cost to go elsewhere rather than enforce the contract they already have. I mean this is really simple shit we're talking about here.

#3200 2 years ago

I put this to Jaap

There are apparently 40 games packed ready that are by all accounts being "held ransom".
DP are refusing to pay ARA and have stopped paying them to have money ready for legal actions.
I'm sorry, but I did not intend for my money to pay for legal action.
I have asked why not: settle the account for the assembled games, or the 300 and then take this to court as what appears to be blackmail. They have the contract that should hopefully win in court. Then move to a different manufacturer for game 2! Makes FAR more financial sense.
I would rather pay the extra, get my game and then get reimbursed when/if DP win court case.. at least I will have a game rather than nothing at all!!

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