What does Dutch have to sell an investor to keep them afloat? It does not even sound as if they still have the license to make more than the 300 games they are supposedly committed to do.

First off, props to pinghetto Rarehero and any others who took the initiative to get answers (even though we're all still confused). Pinside has some super sleuths!

Like I stated before, I knew this wasn't just about PCB boards. It just didn't add up. Unfortunately, DP has to eat the $1000 "cost-up." It's on them to negotiate strict terms in the manufacturing agreement (penalties on production delays, quantities, FOB, quality control, etc.).

This is why I was slightly annoyed when DP did the ARA factory tour back in November. I felt it was a bit premature to start celebrating, especially since the majority of customers seem to be based in the US or Canada. They should have focused on shipping ALL preorder games instead of drinking Caucasians and bowling with customers. Just my 2 cents.

The Dutch do showmanship well. I have dealt with them in business before and I hate painting with a wide brush however I will say this....every time I have dealt with the Dutch, I have been fed many lies and exaggerations that constantly have to be sifted through. I am not saying this is the same situation as I have no knowledge of wha the truth is or what is really going on just find it very interesting that i received two emails one after the other basically covering asses.

Greg can you please pm me the letter from ARA if your not willing to post here. This is far past saving this thing from what I know in business and where it really stands according to what i am hearing here

I'd really appreciate if anyone could share the ARA email to me via PM.

Same here please.

If I have to fly to get my game I will!

If you do, any chance you could grab me a spare bowling alley mech?

I'd also appreciate the ARA email via PM is anyone is able to share.

Please add me to the list that would like the ARA email PM'ed to me.

Thanks in advance.

If I don't get clearer answers from DP today by 5:00 cst, I will post the email here if nobody else has already. That was what I told Jaap and Barry this morning.

I will not post it before.

And its really nothing that hasn't already been discussed here. Don't expect to be blown away by any new info.

Manufacturing facilities are pretty basic in pinball, if costly. They only become an asset rather than a huge liability (in ongoing costs and staff) if you have a bulging order book to keep it busy long into the future.

New infusions of cash tend to be needed precisely because they cause huge cash haemorrhages during delays and dry periods ... as they do in manufacturing generally.

So, I could just send ARA 1k €uros and then would get my machine? ...tempting and if it's just fo the fun of seeing others go berserk over the next few months of further delays

I'm not naive. I have no hope now. I'm upset as fuck. That being said, I'm sure Dutch won't give refunds...so I'm in on this gamble whether I like it or not. Hopefully I can just chill out till March...because Jaap will HAVE to answer for EVERYTHING there, and I hope you guys there won't be meek...GRILL HIM.

Personally, I think the only way to salvage their reputation is this:

If they truly aren't having money issues...this is what they need to do.

OFFER EVERYONE A REFUND. Everyone who wants one, gets one. Everyone who still wants to stick with the game gets a partial refund, with a small bit left in as a DEPOSIT. When the games are finally truly ready to ship and they sort all this shit out, THEN we pay the balance. Currently, the Cointaker buyers only have a deposit in....AND can get refunds if requested. We should all be made "equals" in that sense.

IMO this is the only thing that can restore their reputation and a sense of trust with their buyers.

Brian and I have been on Jaap like rabid dogs....lets give him a few hours to respond. Brian said he'll post it tonite if he doesn't hear back.

Add me to the list wanting the ARA email please

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That would be very undude-like Dude.

I wonder if Cointaker is in a position to give refunds to everyone who has a deposit with them? In other words, is Cointaker holding on to those deposits, or were they forwarded to DP?

DP has no CT money.

Fine you grabbed the wide brush here , but there's no need to dip it in tar...

That is excellent news.

Cointaker holds the deposits, DP does not have that money. Per Melissa.

Being Dutch and a businessman myself must admit this remark does hurt me.

So you Americans have Trump as a president and this means all Americans are like him?? Guess what you are stating here is alternative news

Really sorry to see these new developments. DP have lost a potential customer forever. I hope you guys get your money back, or a game. The time is now for DP to put all of their cards on the table. No more BS.

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Well, you've come to the right place on pinside..

But...you are speaking to a Canadian.

Calm down Rens, it wasnt in jest by Bill. Bad business is bad business, whichever country you're from.

Don't let facts get in the way of it.

Because. You know. Bill is Canadian.

Yes, we're all narcissists, paint ourselves orange, have nicotine-yellow hair, put scotch tape on our ties, and are functional illiterates with mail-order brides who hate us.

Carry on..

Easy now, you've got a dam that needs fixing and he knows a few things about construction, plus he has federal funds.

It's hard to keep silent when I see these sorts of things happen. However, as an investor who funds companies, sometimes companies that manufacture hardware, I feel I should point something out.

A fair majority of the time, there are problems with quality from contract manufacturers. In fact, it's a major risk of hardware, which is why so few investors get behind it. As a matter of course, we expect QA issues in our companies as a rule, and have to bake time into both re-engineering as well as potential backup CMs in order to ensure quality production.

When you're on a razor thin budget, this is massively complex. If you're new to the manufacturing world, it's difficult to measure quality in real-time, and you end up being subject to the whims of the CM. Leverage doesn't exist. This makes it easy for CMs to be difficult or deliver sub-standard results, and the buyer can't do much to resolve these issues. There are entire industries around manufacturing being created to help eliminate some of this friction for small run production, but it's in the early stages.

It really doesn't matter if both sides of this problem think they are right; Maybe it is a question of interpretation of the contract, who knows. The bottom line is that the company who we're supporting here, DP, has one path forward and always has; Deliver you a quality product. Anything less than that would be a disaster. Therefore, of course, DP is going to to everything they can to do that, including move on to another manufacturer.

When Kickstarter emerged, at first, venture capitalists were thinking that a successful campaign may be an indicator of future market success. Very quickly that myth was dispelled, because few successful campaigns ship product. What's worse, those campaigns were often plagued with spotty communication, and as a result, the venture backed startups only use Kickstarter as a marketing machine now. Communities are super hard to manage when you're learning in real-time.

My advice here is to be as forgiving as you can to DP. You guys may slam me for coming to their defense, but as someone who pre-ordered as well, I'm inclined to wait as long as it takes to get a quality product.

Dutch Pinball is a, "fine tuned machine".

Communication. Communication. Communication.

Customers don't like surprises and eventually the truth comes out. This is a real problem in the pinball manufacturing industry.

Leave the F ing politics out of it. Something you def know ZERO about anyhow.

Focus on trying to hold these F ers accountable

How can you deliver 60 games in almost 3 1/2 years and survive? Rice and beans?

Another Jpop in the making here.

Problem is... If this was told to us in October (when the relationship dessolved between DP and ARA), most of us would accept it and wait. We've done just that countless times through this pre order.

That is not what happened. We were told there was a board issue instead. And that games were shipping very soon. Judging by the ARA email and DP update #2 today, this was NEVER the case.

Knowing full well what the situation was, Barry told me in December that the games could possibly ship before Christmas. And the board issues were just about resolved.

Since Bill is CANADIAN I see no reason to bring US Politics into the discussion!

I feel DP owes all the owners an explanation sooner rather than later. No news is usually viewed as BAD NEWS.

You say what you believe. You've got nothing to gain by setting too high expectations, except massive disappointment. "Under promise and over-deliver." You're right though, if they had known there were problems, transparency generally works to your favor here.

Moving on is hard, but ultimately, that's what DP has to do at this point.

...and I should add, of course, if you CM delivers something you think is below spec, you must not pay, period. If your CM thinks it's in spec, then they think you're holding out on payment. Anyway, this is speculation, but I see this all the time.

I didn't set any expectations, they did. Knowing full well there wasn't a chance in hell the games were shipping. After I was told that, all communication stopped. So, I went elsewhere for information. This is no joke, it's $8500. I'm not just going to sit back and see what happens.

Obviously, their initial email today was more BS. Not sure how you are saying I set any expectations...

I'm not. I'm saying DP did.

The "You" is royal, meaning "one" as in DP. Sorry.

I apologize. I misunderstood your post.

I'm confusing A. F. Not you're fault.

The Dude Abides.

I was told I need to come see what is happening in TBL thread. I am like 30 pages behind.

Can I get cliff notes form someone please?

DP likely owes ARA monies, and now ARA isn't releasing the goods.

And Bill isn't much of a fan of the Dutch, apparently.

who is ARA?

The manufacturer of the games I believe