(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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#2951 2 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

What is ARA for those that have not followed the whole thing in detail?

The contract manufacturer and supplier of boards and I think some of the wiring amongst other things.

DP don't have a production facility.

#2952 2 years ago

Oh boy the Saga continues.
Let's just hope they can resolve the issues with ARA otherwise these games will be a long time coming.

#2953 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

The contract manufacturer and supplier of boards and I think some of the wiring amongst other things.
DP don't have a production facility.

If Dutch Pinball wanted to become a regular pinball company rather than just making one game, they really needed to set up their own factory. Maybe a factory in the JJP mold only smaller would have been a good option for them. Otherwise they are at the mercy of the contract manufacturers for everything. At least with a factory the pinball company can go to alternative manufacturers for parts when the main supplier fails to produce quality or quantity or goes into contract disputes.

Also, why is the software not super deep and amazing by now? The whole project smells of cashflow issues.

14
#2954 2 years ago

I got an Email from ARA this morning...followed by Dutch's. Either ARA is lying or Dutch is. Either way, it doesn't matter, because FACT: Dutch lied about the PCB's. So, first things first:

FUCK YOU, DUTCH PINBALL!!!!!!!

Second...lets sort out the facts.

1. We know ARA has a ton of games sitting there, complete.
2. Dutch says ARA wants more money, won't pay it, threatening legal action.
3. Dutch says they're looking for a new manufacturer.
4. Would they get the finished games back from ARA, or will those be scrapped? Wouldn't it cost MORE to BUILD FROM SCRATCH vs. just fucking PAYING ARA to get this over with? They won't pay ARA 1000 more euros per game...but they'll pay someone else, probably more, to start over?

Point 4 is why this explanation seems fishy as fuck.

#2955 2 years ago

Can someone post the ARA email?

#2956 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I got an Email from ARA this morning...followed by Dutch's. Either ARA is lyin or Dutch is. Either way, it doesn't matter, because FACT: Dutch lied about the PCB's. So, first thinks first:
FUCK YOU, DUTCH PINBALL!!!!!!!
Second...lets sort out the facts.
1. We know ARA has a ton of games sitting there, complete.
2. Dutch says ARA wants more money, won't pay it, threatening legal action.
3. Dutch says they're looking for a new manufacturer.
4. Would they get the finished games back from ARA, or will those be scrapped? Wouldn't it cost MORE to BUILD FROM SCRATCH vs. just fucking PAYING ARA to get this over with? They won't pay ARA 1000 more euros per game...but they'll pay someone else, probably more, to start over?
Point 4 is why this explanation seems fishy as fuck.

I seriously doubt Dutch can afford option 3 or 4 at this point.

#2957 2 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

If Dutch Pinball wanted to become a regular pinball company rather than just making one game, they really needed to set up their own factory.

That sounds great in principle, but in practice there are a ton of costs and issues involved with running a manufacturing facility that are better handled by someone who specializes in it. CMs will have better access to parts sources, volume discounts and expensive equipment that they can amortize across multiple clients versus you as a single entity could not afford.

Going the CM route was a smart play for Dutch, but it's unfortunate that they chose the wrong manufacturer to do it. I gather ARA is mostly making medical equipment and there are unique issues with pinball manufacture that perhaps they didn't understand or foresee.

#2958 2 years ago

I also got the ARA email this morning. I forwarded it to Jaap and Barry, which prompted update #2.

We deserve an honest explanation here. More than "more info coming soon". Or a refund, which I'd guess ain't happening anytime soon.

Brian

#2959 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I got an Email from ARA this morning...followed by Dutch's. Either ARA is lying or Dutch is. Either way, it doesn't matter, because FACT: Dutch lied about the PCB's. So, first thinks first:
FUCK YOU, DUTCH PINBALL!!!!!!!
Second...lets sort out the facts.
1. We know ARA has a ton of games sitting there, complete.
2. Dutch says ARA wants more money, won't pay it, threatening legal action.
3. Dutch says they're looking for a new manufacturer.
4. Would they get the finished games back from ARA, or will those be scrapped? Wouldn't it cost MORE to BUILD FROM SCRATCH vs. just fucking PAYING ARA to get this over with? They won't pay ARA 1000 more euros per game...but they'll pay someone else, probably more, to start over?
Point 4 is why this explanation seems fishy as fuck.

And where will the money come from for any of those options?

#2960 2 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

I also got the ARA email this morning. I forwarded it to Jaap and Barry, which prompted update #2.
We deserve an honest explanation here. More than "more info coming soon". Or a refund, which I'd guess ain't happening anytime soon.
Brian

So, ARA is claiming they are owed money and won't move forward with anything until paid by DP? And that includes shipping any of the completed games sitting in their facility?

And DP is claiming ARA is trying to charge DP more per game than their contract agreed to?

#2961 2 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

That sounds great in principle, but in practice there are a ton of costs and issues involved with running a manufacturing facility that are better handled by someone who specializes in it. CMs will have better access to parts sources, volume discounts and expensive equipment that they can amortize across multiple clients versus you as a single entity could not afford.
Going the CM route was a smart play for Dutch, but it's unfortunate that they chose the wrong manufacturer to do it. I gather ARA is mostly making medical equipment and there are unique issues with pinball manufacture that perhaps they didn't understand or foresee.

If you constantly have delays and the project ends up being two years late it is very difficult to make a product either way (own factory or contract). JJP likely only survived because they built the factory and had a substantial factory set-up to show potential/eventual investors beyond the one extravagant game. Where is Dutch going to get cash to pay a different manufacturer when they have already invested in ARA? Alternatively, where would Dutch get $1000 extra per game to pay ARA?

#2962 2 years ago
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

And where will the money come from for any of those options?

Exactly - that's why it sounds like bullshit.

#2963 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I got an Email from ARA this morning...followed by Dutch's. Either ARA is lying or Dutch is. Either way, it doesn't matter, because FACT: Dutch lied about the PCB's. So, first thinks first:
FUCK YOU, DUTCH PINBALL!!!!!!!
Second...lets sort out the facts.
1. We know ARA has a ton of games sitting there, complete.
2. Dutch says ARA wants more money, won't pay it, threatening legal action.
3. Dutch says they're looking for a new manufacturer.
4. Would they get the finished games back from ARA, or will those be scrapped? Wouldn't it cost MORE to BUILD FROM SCRATCH vs. just fucking PAYING ARA to get this over with? They won't pay ARA 1000 more euros per game...but they'll pay someone else, probably more, to start over?
Point 4 is why this explanation seems fishy as fuck.

So Dutch didn't come clean until ara outed them. WOW. What a crock. I'm quite sure ARA didn't come to the decision to withhold games easily. I can't imagine they did so without getting legal counsel. There is more underlying issues yet to come to light.

It seems fishy because it is fishy. If it walks like a duck...

#2964 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Exactly - that's why it sounds like bullshit.

And didn't DP say that ARA designed the boards under the playfields (I could be wrong in this)?

If that's the case, we are going to start the R and D stage all over again? F*ck that.

God damnit, Dutch Pinball..... Honesty is your friend. These past few months (years) of bold face straight out lies have really clouded up this project.

I'm guessing the waiting list over at Coin Taker got a little shorter today.

DP needs to take control of this situation QUICK (if they even care to anymore).

#2965 2 years ago

Could someone please post the ARA email?

#2966 2 years ago
Quoted from JustLikeMe:

Could someone please post the ARA email?

I told Jaap that I would not post the email on forums or social media as long as he gives me straight information by the end of the day today. No more bull shit. I will stay true to my word. However, I know others that got the same email I did.

#2967 2 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

I told Jaap that I would not post the email on forums or social media as long as he gives me straight information by the end of the day today. No more bull shit. I will stay true to my word. However, I know others that got the same email I did.

Fair enough. If anyone else has it and doesn't want to post it, a PM would be much appreciated.

#2968 2 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

I told Jaap that I would not post the email on forums or social media as long as he gives me straight information by the end of the day today. No more bull shit. I will stay true to my word. However, I know others that got the same email I did.

You know the relationship between ARA and Dutch is gone when ARA was willing to go behind dutch's back and contact dutch's customers directly. Don't forget Dutch is ara's customer; not the lembowski owners. That is a serious breach of business protocol and not one many business engage in unless they feel they have no other means of recourse. I would say there is next to no chance of salvaging the Dutch/ARA relationship. While it's shitty what ARA did, how long would have Dutch continued the bad board ruse.

#2969 2 years ago

Everything I know is from this thread, but I'll just say if these "board problems" turn out to have not been the issue all this time, then DPs version of things is not looking good.

#2970 2 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

I also got the ARA email this morning. I forwarded it to Jaap and Barry, which prompted update #2.

This so reminds me of the guys who contacted Fox about the Predator debacle. Nicely done, sure. Nicely done.

#2971 2 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

You know the relationship between ARA and Dutch is gone when ARA was willing to go behind dutch's back and contact dutch's customers directly. Don't forget Dutch is ara's customer; not the lembowski owners. That is a serious breach of business protocol and not one many business engage in unless they feel they have no other means of recourse. I would say there is next to no chance of salvaging the Dutch/ARA relationship. While it's shitty what ARA did, how long would have Dutch continued the bad board ruse.

ARA did not reach out to me. I reached out to them. I was not satisfied with DP's "board problem" excuses. It took some leg work to find contacts at ARA.

#2972 2 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

ARA did not reach out to me. I reached out to them. I was not satisfied with DP's "board problem" excuses. It took some leg work to find contacts at ARA.

Oh wow. Sorry I missed that. My apologies. That paints Dutch in ever a worse light.

#2973 2 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Oh wow. Sorry I missed that. My apologies. That paints Dutch in ever a worse light.

After I located a contact at ARA, I passed that person's info to others that have preordered that were looking for answers. At that time, DP had not been responding to our emails. This is the direct result of that.

I received ARA's response literally hours after DP's update #1.

#2974 2 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

ARA did not reach out to me. I reached out to them. I was not satisfied with DP's "board problem" excuses. It took some leg work to find contacts at ARA.

Thank you pinghetto! Even though the news is bad so far, it's nice to FINALLY have some info.

#2975 2 years ago

Anyone want to buy #112 from me?

#2976 2 years ago

I'll add that Melissa said the other day that she isn't worried about DP long term, and has had much bigger problems and much larger concerns about other pin manufacturers. But reading what you all have written i see that a lot of new shit has come to light. Maybe it's all the Caucasians, but i just hope that i eventually get my TBL, i do know i can't control it, and believe that if it falls apart cointaker will give me my 1K deposit back. I'm #254, so if i get one everyone's getting one. I do want a working machine and I'm now guessing that may be in 2018. We must abide, and there is a hungry waiting list at cointaker if you need or want to get out. And if anyone out there has a CPR addams family playfield they want to sell please let me know- quicksand, fumes, toxic waste, its all ours!...

#2977 2 years ago

Please don't get me wrong. In no way was I hoping for this to turn out this way when I emailed ARA. I was just hoping to find answers somewhere since things had gone silent on the DP side of the fence.

And I will be the first to hopefully stand behind DP if they get a plan of attack put together and are straight forward with the folks that have had their backs both socially and financially for years.

This is a kick ass game. Koen is f*cking awesome with code. The amount of work these guys have put into this machine needs to be enjoyed by the masses.

#2978 2 years ago

I know it's hindsight but these newly formed boutique pinball companies should have followed the Gary Stern formula - you start out with a facility that does nothing but assemble games; you don't manufacture anything, you buy everything and inventory it; you steal/license all the circuitry and boards like they did with Williams System 11. Once you become successful then you slowly become self-sufficient by manufacturing items in-house.

#2979 2 years ago
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

So, ARA is claiming they are owed money and won't move forward with anything until paid by DP? And that includes shipping any of the completed games sitting in their facility?
And DP is claiming ARA is trying to charge DP more per game than their contract agreed to?

Well, if it is so crystal clear its just to show the contract and what it says.

#2980 2 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

Please don't get me wrong. In no way was I hoping for this to turn out this way when I emailed ARA. I was just hoping to find answers somewhere since things had gone silent on the DP side of the fence.
And I will be the first to hopefully stand behind DP if they get a plan of attack put together and are straight forward with the folks that have had their backs both socially and financially for years.
This is a kick ass game. Koen is f*cking awesome with code. The amount of work these guys have put into this machine needs to be enjoyed by the masses.

I think we all want DP to succeed, and want 300 Lebowskis in the world.

Just a shame that there appears to be some big problems, and a shame that radio silence was used as a tactic to manage it.

#2981 2 years ago
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

This so reminds me of the guys who contacted Fox about the Predator debacle. Nicely done, sure. Nicely done.

You blaming the victims? As customers who have been fed a line of bullshit for months, we have every right to investigate to see what the fuck is going on. Brian emailed ARA. I did too. I'm sure others are as well. And I'll be even more transparent. If we don't get some satisfactory answers soon - I'm going to Universal. No "anonymous" here!

#2982 2 years ago

So everyone seems ok that ARA can ask for more money midstream? Seems like that's the consensus after hearing another side. Not sure why that's okay at this point.

#2983 2 years ago
Quoted from JimB:

So everyone seems ok that ARA can ask for more money midstream? Seems like that's the consensus after hearing another side. Not sure why that's okay at this point.

There's two sides to every story. We don't know what's true. Dutch claims they're asking for more. ARA claims they're asking for what's owed already.

If Dutch succesfully transfers this to another manduacturer, we believe them.

If we're still twiddling our thumbs months from now, we believe ARA.

#2984 2 years ago
Quoted from JimB:

So everyone seems ok that ARA can ask for more money midstream? Seems like that's the consensus after hearing another side. Not sure why that's okay at this point.

Better to send a couple hundred extra than loosing our $8500. That's my thought. Just to get this done. At least I'll have a couple pieces of wood, electronics, and some wire to show for my money (working or not).

10
#2985 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

You blaming the victims? As customers who have been fed a line of bullshit for months, we have every right to investigate to see what the fuck is going on. Brian emailed ARA. I did too. I'm sure others are as well. And I'll be even more transparent. If we don't get some satisfactory answers soon - I'm going to Universal. No "anonymous" here!

I'm giving pinghetto, who happens to be a very good friend of mine who's been fed a bunch of shit for months from DP, credit for stepping up and trying to find out exactly what's been going on.

#2986 2 years ago
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

I'm giving pinghetto, who happens to be a very good friend of mine who's been fed a bunch of shit for months from DP, credit for stepping up and trying to find out exactly what's been going on.

Thanks for clearing that up. I took the tone out of context...it read sarcastic.

#2987 2 years ago

So does this mean TBL is going to be a BBB all over again? LOL. Of course, with the opposite effect on price.

What a S**tshow.

#2988 2 years ago

This really sucks for you guys that are out $8500 and have been waiting for years. I have a $1000 deposit (on a $10000 game) that I sent 2 months ago and I plan to get it back. This sounds pretty bad. If they end up making great games and provide good support for them (like JJP), I'll buy a used one, even if it costs me more in the end, it isn't worth the gamble to stay in this game. I hope you guys that have so much invested in this get what you're owed.

#2989 2 years ago

Any chance JJP or Stern could buy the project from Dutch Pinball?

#2990 2 years ago

I've never owned a pinball machine and TBL was the theme that finally got me to preorder. Since I preordered, we've purchased land that we'll build a weekend/future retirement house on and I've been concerned about eventually moving my TBL from our house to the future house that we haven't built yet.

At the rate we're going, we will have designed and built the new house and my TBL will be delivered there instead. I just found a silver lining.

#2991 2 years ago

So, Occam's razor is that ARA is owed money by DP. DP won't/can't pay ARA. So ARA are holding the product hostage until they get paid?

#2992 2 years ago
Quoted from Bearcat:

Any chance JJP or Stern could buy the project from Dutch Pinball?

I don't think anyone would touch this product with a ten foot pole!! At least not the way things stand now.

#2993 2 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

Better to send a couple hundred extra than being our $8500. That's my thought. Just to get this done. At least I'll have a piece of wood, electronics, and some wire to show for my money (working or not).

For the production phase, I would imagine they pay on completion (shipping). Probably hence ARA, if reported correctly, feel they have room to negotiate a higher fee and the leverage to do so with a bunch of completed games.

Also probably why DP appear to think they can move to another CM ... but how long that takes would be interesting to say the least.

#2994 2 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

So, Occam's razor is that ARA is owed money by DP. DP won't/can't pay ARA. So ARA are holding the product hostage until they get paid?

Yes.

#2995 2 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

If Dutch Pinball wanted to become a regular pinball company rather than just making one game, they really needed to set up their own factory. Maybe a factory in the JJP mold only smaller would have been a good option for them. Otherwise they are at the mercy of the contract manufacturers for everything. At least with a factory the pinball company can go to alternative manufacturers for parts when the main supplier fails to produce quality or quantity or goes into contract disputes.
Also, why is the software not super deep and amazing by now? The whole project smells of cashflow issues.

Rather the opposite. Huge fixed costs are the primary drag on solvency. That they have none is their one trump card amidst all the delays and meanderings. Nearly sunk JJP and others are in dire trouble.

Assuming of course that DP pay on completion and ARA aren't holding large deposits for machines finished or under production in eskrow ...

14
#2996 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

We sincerely want to apologize for the radio silence. We understand that in the pinball world, not communicating causes speculation. The reason is that we have no news to share. There is an issue with our partner ARA which we are trying to resolve.

Wow, could you be more inconsistent from one sentence to the next? "We have no news.." to "there is an issue with our partner (that makes the games)." Seems rather newsworthy to me.

A lot of new shit has definitely come to light, dude.

#2997 2 years ago

Man, I don't get it. So DP limits the run to 300 games? That is a gross revenue of around only $2.7M... how could this be profitable?

#2998 2 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

I would say there is next to no chance of salvaging the Dutch/ARA relationship.

If that turns out to be the case, it also means that there is little to no chance of salvaging DP as a whole. Despite what they said about finding a new company to manufacture the games, that option simply isn't feasible for the reasons already discussed.

I wonder how much money ARA has already received from DP, and how much cash DP still has on hand?

And what company is going to agree to a manufacturing contract with DP on a project that is going to be entering into litigation?

#2999 2 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

If that turns out to be the case, it also means that there is little to no chance of salvaging DP as a whole. Despite what they said about finding a new company to manufacture the games, that option simply isn't feasible for the reasons already discussed.
I wonder how much money ARA has already received from DP, and how much cash DP still has on hand?
And what company is going to agree to a manufacturing contract with DP on a project that is going to be entering into litigation?

The only thing that gives me the slightest ray of hope is that Jaap is scheduled to speak at the Texas show. Why would they even bother if the ship had already sunk. And after reading the ARA email, that relationship has been dead for months.

#3000 2 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

If that turns out to be the case, it also means that there is little to no chance of salvaging DP as a whole. Despite what they said about finding a new company to manufacture the games, that option simply isn't feasible for the reasons already discussed.
I wonder how much money ARA has already received from DP, and how much cash DP still has on hand?
And what company is going to agree to a manufacturing contract with DP on a project that is going to be entering into litigation?

Agreed. And this isn't like JJP where new games can be made and sold before preorders to gain new money.

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