That was some expo. My first and only visit to Chicago expo. Was a great experience, one of best expo’s ever . But Of course the one we held in 2017 dpo expo NL was better

Made the decision to buy TBL at that show. Who would have guessed that over three years later we still would e waiting

Now waiting for good news which should hopefully be soon. Jaap and Barry are both not visiting TPf as they wanna concentrate on just 1 thing, production.

I was told by Barry that he and Jaap didn’t go to TPF. Also didn’t see any Facebook post from a traveling Jaap.

You know that they say that everyone has a twin on this planet, you found Jaap’s Twin ?

Couple of remarks to your appreciated comment.

There were no two Chinese TBL. One was ÄRA one was Chinese. In this way you could compare and on purpose there was no marking on the outside giving away which one as Chinese.

And yep I am sure you meant you meant DP are the worse businessman as DPO is a show.

And like stated, DP has not gone I to hiding and they have visited plenty of shows after all the drama begun

Nope. This topic has been up befor but two ÄRA TBL owners, pdxmonkey and Burningman, played them both at DPO and approved the Chinese version

The programmer Koen left like a year ago. Think priority will be to get the line running again and they did say if I am not mistaking that when that is done they will work on and release an update to 1.0. They told at that time they still have access to Koen (who is a personal friend of Barry).

No worries, besides ÄRA (who sent invoices higher as the contract), everyone is paid as far as I know and sure Koen is. When he announced his leaving I contacted him and he left in good will. He just wanted to do something different which I can understand after 2 yrs of TBL and all the drama around it. Koen is also a personal friend of Barry.

Koen was also an employee of DP so not a subcontracted person which you mostly see with unpaid pinball programmers. He got his monthly salary as mandatory by law.

Little birdie tells me NSN is incoming

I have said it befor but also over here it is rather simple to pursuit unpaid bills.

However, you need to proof you deserve to get paid and did your part of the deal. Just suppose that DP has been telling the truth an investigation will proof immediately that ÄRA didn’t fulfill their part of the deal and breached the contract..... So the lack of action from ÄRA where I guess they have at least like 750K at stake (remember that they prepaid a lot of the parts) is proof for me that DP is telling the truth.

Otherwise I totally fail to understand why ÄRA hasn’t filed a payment claim. They are a reasonable sized company but also for them 750K is no small change.

If you wanna file for bankruptcy indeed more than 1 party is required, 2 to be precise.

However, that is usually not done direct. There are much easier steps trying to get your money as immediately go for bankruptcy as far as I know. You can block bankaccounts etc. and also a judge will determine how valid your claim is. So you better be sure about your case.

And at the end of the day, suppose people succeed in getting DP bankrupt. What than? DP has been open in the fact that there is not enough money left to built all ordered games. So whatever is left first goes to banks, taxes, curator, etc. and us EA are at the end of the line most likely left with empty hands.

And just suppose DP is telling the truth about ÄRA? You wanna share sides with such a company?

I am not saying I like it but riding it out is our best option I see. And yes, it is difficult and frustrating. And seeing very likely new buyers getting their games sooner as us EA will be a challenge to ...

And the talk about loaning money. Banks over here are very conservative and you wanna loan money for what? Producing pinballs? What’s a pinball .....??

That’s the auto spelling of my mobile .....

Cash grab for what? I see no mansion or Ferrari or Fiji islands with neither barry or Jaap. In fact, if it was a cash grab why are they still investing in Xytech? Why didn’t they ask money from CT and Nitro? Why didn’t they accept more orders than the 300? Can tell you there were more people than who wanted but the line was closed. Believe it or not, they still get requests from people wanting to buy and put a deposit (which DP declines).

So where is this cash grab comment based Upon? DP for sure has done things wrong and can be called a lot of names but cash grabbers they ain’t.

I like the capital letters. You must be very sure of your case. Care to share the intel you have to support this claim?? Really curious to hear who founded DP, designed TBL, made all building instructions, etc.

Apparently not Barry and Jaap ......

You said they did NOTHING. The above is different.

However, again false talking about hundreds. They did deliver 50 pcs. And these hundreds are in fact approx 140 early achievers who paid and in are in like me. There are more who ordered games but they haven’t been asked to pay a dime so they have not gotten a game but also lost NOTHING.

Glad to see that such well informed people like you keep stirring the pot with nothing to tell and I bet no skin in the game.

Look, I am the last to state that DP is without errors. They have made mistakes for sure and it is in the end their sole responsibility. But stop throwing these wild unfounded accusations.

Totally agree. Even DP themselves think the same. Imagine that they are still getting requests for orders with money offered upfront .... DP is not accepting them by the way. Get the line first rolling and orders via distributors where customers money is as safe as possible.

I have been asked what I know about the rumor for new investors in DP.

Simple answer: nothing. I am wondering where this rumor comes from.

Disclaimer: I am not on DP payroll so my info can mean nothing.

HP and DP might share half of the name but for the rest they are quite different. No money went to expensive unused machinery, an Opel Zafira is not a Porsche Cayenne, all rents were paid (just small office by the way), etc.

I welcome an investigation but it will show money went to salaries and development and some parts and building prototypes.

And remember, DP has had many offers for extra orders but turned them all down. No extra money was taken besides the first approx 200 EA. If they were in for money they have had plenty of chances to accept more pre order money but they didn’t. First get 300 out of the door they always said.

Had a chance to play a TBL last night. Enjoyed it

But the waiting is indeed getting harder and harder and more and more difficult to keep faith in a happy ending up

Seeing HP and JPOP mess it shows not all stories have happy endings.

They always say last part in waiting is the hardest and they are right :wall.

Whatever happens, I can only say that DP truely are honest people and are really really trying their best to get us our TBL. I am convinced of that. Would have been much easier for them just to give up after the ARA mess.

CE2713B0-71E5-4D11-BC8A-9409554EF133 (resized).jpeg

I keep my faith in DP as i know the persons in person and know that they are not conning us. They are really trying, believe me.

For sure they deserve our doubts on their business, I have them at least, as in the end no matter the cause I bought with them and not ÄRA thus it’s their responsibility. I have placed my remarks on their communication skills over the years to them. My biggest remark is here that we are customers, not investors. And after all these time we deserve more info. But what if there is nothing new to tell?

For me personally the summerholiday is like a kind of deadline. If than production still hasn’t started it will become difficult for me to keep faith. Clock is ticking. A lot of the prepaid money went to salary over like 4 years, building prototypes twice, buying parts even if ARA paid most of them, etc. That must have eaten a big hole in their bank account hence the reason why refunds are impossible, at least for all of us. At this moment they just need to jump start production and as soon as TBL comes rolling from the production line income is generated and the line continuous with that and we will get our machines in the end. But this requires a big chunk of money at the start and my guess this is what we are waiting for. The approval from an investor. And this is now the status for like 4-5 months??

You can talk about getting a bank loan but who says they haven’t tried this? How many banks do you think will loan money to a pinball factory startup? We are not talking here of a 10KUSD loan after all.

My hope is that CT and or Nitro will garantuee payment upon shipping and that Xytech will prepay the parts required, at least for a part. This in combo with an angel investor might do it. I understood from DP selling is not an issue. Plenty of orders and even now people are approaching them still direct and offering deposits and orders. Unbelievable. DP declines them by the way.

Or perhaps Deeproot needs a theme and pinball with JPOP now convicted? Who knows? They have funds apparently.

So not end of the line (yet at least) but clock is ticking. And do we have a real choice here besides sitting it out? You can go to court and than what? DP falls over and than what? You can accuse them of being bad business man but not of conning and lying to people. They will not have to go to jail if you think this gives you some satisfaction.

Above are just my PERSONAL thoughts as a fellow EA who is also struggling with this all.

Like it or not but this is (part of) the answer to the question : where is the fucking money?

This is one I didn’t see coming. Didn’t expect a claim from ÄRA anymore after such a long time. If it already is not difficult enough to make a pinball .....

Feels like the beginning of the end

This is the end of the line Donny

So, let the news sink in for a night after a initial first response.

I see many theories so I feel free to add my own thought on this. So here it goes.

Let’s assume DP has always been telling the trueth. I kniow Barry and Jaap better as most of you and I just dont feel that they are lying to us. I know, this is a weak spot with me but if DP has been telling the trueth ARA is the one to blame and Will nothing gain in a courtcase. So why this move now?

My theory for the moment is that ARA knows it will not win but it will stop TBl production moving forward (DP needs investors and who will invest in this with a lawsuit hanging over the company?) and thus any possible revenues coming from production are stopped. ARA knows like nobody else the financial status of DP (DP reported open books every month) so know that not much, if any, money is left on the bank so why sue somebidy if nothing is on the bank? If they can stop DP getting money the plan could be to lead DP into bankrupcy (i know that in 2017 they contacted another company to have two creditors and if you have two you can try this to). And if DP is bankrupt this frees their hands to sell the 40 pcs TBL to the highest bidder? Plus other inventory? There is i think easily 400-500KUSD to be made here?

We have in NL two court possibilities, a socalled kort geding and bodemprocedure. Kort geding is the fast one within weeks or a few months but this procedure is not suitable for this kind of case so it will be a bodemprocedure which can easily take over a year (I would be very very surprised if within 2018 any verdict is given). Now this blocks DP over a longer period of income. Plus ARA will also hope this is rallies up EA who will put a claim and perhaps have Dp bankrupt prior to the courtcase. It would not be the first time a bigger company sues a smaller one to death .....

So the above is my theory for the moment. Ara wants DP bankrupt to free their hands on doing with the finished goods they have as they wish. Pls do note I am not a lawyer. For sure they will not hand over the 40 tbls to the EA

Anybody, pls feel free to do whatever you think is best. Above is just my personal theory.

I am however expecting not much money on the bankaccounts of DP left so sueing them will bring you perhaps a good revenge feeling but not money in your pocket. If DP has paid all their bills for the rest and not diverted any money for their own personal benefit you will get Dp bankrupt but Jaap and Barry will not be personal held liable and have not to sell their house. Protection by law is in place and this protection can only be lifted if they do criminal matters.

And I hold them responsible for this matter, not quilty. We can accuse them of being bad businessmen perhaps but not scammers. Perhaps we should point our arrows on ARA for this?

And yes, the above is solely based on my talks with barry and jaap over the years and is thus singlesided. These talks, and there have been many with especially Barry over the years, have always lead me to the feeling that DP is not quilty but yes, again, they are responsible. This latter is why they struggled so long to get the the train running again after being f*cked in the alps by ARA. Would have been much easier just to quit, give everyone a few dollars back and call it a day. But they wanna do the right thing and that is getting us our tbls. And this dream has turned into a nightmare for all of us, also them.

Thats it after a night sleep. Do with it whatever you please.

As usual in cases like this people are choosing sides. I have chosen mine based on my business knowledge and human knowledge and fully respect people decide to chose the opposite. They have after all 8500 reasons to do so. Who am I to say I know it better ??

I just fail to see however where DP has proven lied to us (besides the PCB lie). They have given us a lot more info on the matter as ÄRA did. In fact ARA even fired their manager because of this. We can accuse DP of non-communication and sometimes living in a dreamworld with Bop 3.0 SLE but not of lies as far as I know.

Anyway, choose the side you wish. I do hope documents will be revealed during court trials for the whole world to see so we can objectively see who was really in the wrong. Should be not to difficult to compare pricing on a contract with an invoice after all. And if I am in the wrong so be it. Than my antennas for sensing trueth when I talk in length with people need to be adjusted in a big way

You are talking of Universal license if it allows ÄRA to sell the built units or not but what about a software license .....

What is a TBL worth without the software to run it? And for sure the software is IP property of DP. This needs to be added to the universal license allows Ära to sell or not.

Which enforces my idea is that ÄRA is starting this to get DP bankrupt and buy the IP for little money from the trustee. Sue them and drag the court case till they are broke policy.

IP on the software developed by DP. TBL hardware is useless without the software ....

I really don’t think ÄRA has any interest in starting production up again let alone making us EA whole again.

Also remember DP didn’t want to agree to 51/49 as that would give ÄRA full control to do whatever they like. God knows what they would have done. Remember, if ÄRA only wanted to make sure the money went to them why did they refuse DP counteroffer to give them full control over the money flow eg payments from paypal, nitro and CT would direct flow into ARa bank account?? Tell me, if they were sincere in just wanting 51/49 as purpose of money control (they even said they would return control to Jaap and Barry after 300 were produced), why did they refuse DP counteroffer??

No, ÄRA had a second agenda for sure.

This makes theory 523? I was hoping courtdocuments would be publically available but apparently not. Would be interesting reading material to see ÄRA claim and DP counterclaim. A lot would be revealed I guess. The courtsession will be however, whenever it is.

You all forgot who negotiated the license? Roger sharpe it is and he has been their liaison towards US all the time.

You think he is unaware of this and is prepared to set his reputation with US on the line for DP? I bet he is fully informed by DP and has informed US also. There was a license and there is a license.

And than all these lies apparently DP told. Besides the PCB lie, what are they? Is it about deadlines not met? That would only be a lie in my book if they told a deadline knowing they couldn’t make it. Pls enlighten me. My memory is not flawless (no pun intended).

And no, I am not on a saving crusade for DP. Just trying to keep the story as straight as possible. If somebody thinks he should go after DP by all means do so. Just do it based on the right info. My believe is that getting DP bankrupt will play ÄRA right into their hands and will end the story for all of us. But that’s my believe and doesn’t mean it should also be yours.

It’s not a situation I like but it’s reality, for me at least.

Just my 2 cents (again). Flame suit on.

I double checked and by Dutch law you have to take approx 45KEUR annual salary, or at least pay the taxes on it. Only in very special circumstances you can ask for a lower salary. This to be determined by the tax department.

Looking at the personal taking a salary there is first of all programmer Koen who was just a regular employee. Nobody will say he shouldn’t have gotten a salary I assume.

Leaves Barry and Jaap. Starting (or trying to start is perhaps better here) a pinball company is typical not a part time job you do in the evening. So if you do this full time from start 2014? where do you live from? And remember, if ÄRA would have worked according to contract deliveries would have taken place in 2015/16. Their business strategy must have been based on that schedule where calculations based on profit from delivered tbl’s showed the possibility of a salary which they needed to be able to try this. And again, at that moment no signs this would be impossible.

I realize it doesn’t feel fair that we EA get , perhaps to likely, nothing while they had a salary. Also I am struggling with this but business wise it’s how it is.

I mostly agree with this. DP has IP on a pinball machine but no machines or whatever to built stuff. If they would be liquidated there would be some Engineering TBL samples to be sold plus some PC’s I guess and ofcourse the IP on the TBL design and software. The latter is only worth something for somebody wanted to produce TBL (AP , Deeproot, Spooky?). Not much to get there.

Only hope left is DP winning not only the courtcase but also getting out of it a good settlement from ÄRA. Big enough to either start building TBL or refund everybody.

The proto was also built and developed by ÄRA. After those were built a pre-estimation was increased to a fixed number by ÄRA. They should have known exactly what they were building.

However, apparently not

So It was not that DP brought them a proto which they had to duplicate. They knew what they were supposed to built. Apparently they used a broken calculator

Excellent write up

Pls reveal source of info that DP hasn’t paid any of the games eg nothing on the approx 50 delivered.

Or is it just an assumption like 90% of the thread (including me)?

This has been discussed already long time ago. I challenge you to point out which changes have been made on DP request to ÄRA. My guess is you know none .....

But I get it. There are people like me seen as DP fanboys and there are people on the opposite. I don’t think we will ever work this out in a forum as after all we are all best guessing. I am however missing a lot of proof in accusations like i have difficulty in proving my right. However, I live by the principle: not quilty till proven otherwise.

And I have one advantage over most of you, many hours with Barry which enabled me to get a feeling on the opposite person. If he has been lying to me all these years he should get an Emmy award for best actor.

This is a major reason I wished the documents would be public. This would settle it, left or right. I guess we will know one day in the (distant) future.

I heard of somebody who heard that ....

I heard long time ago from Barry that payments on the first deliveries have (partial) been done. How big the partial part is I don’t know but best guess (here we go again ) would be the amount stipulated in the contract between Ära and DP and not the extra part.

?? Where have they stated this wanted to save money ?

If they wanna go to court for this with ÄRA they would have needed to start a bodemprocedure. This as Ära is doing now. This however easily takes a year. Would you have been fine with that news? And even if a judges rules in favor of DP would you wanna accept a pinball built by a company who didn’t want to built it so for sure would have cut corners?

And if you are in court procedures will a new CM touch it? Be also informed that Xytech has seen all info and open books. Still they decided to go ahead. Apparently they saw something convincing.

So this is why DP didn’t do this. And being in the right is something else unfortunately as getting it from a judge

My relation with DP is mostly with Barry.

Barry and me are part of the editor team of the magazine of the Dutch Pinball Association (approx 1200 members, biggest pinballclub in the world , appears 4 times a year called the Spinner) thus we already met and spoke on a regular basis and 1 conversation leads to another and another and .... I didn’t buy a TBL like most of you because of the theme but because it was Dutch and made by Barry. It’s that simple.

Ofcourse I know Jaap but again, mostly Barry.

I am awake now

Thought I already posted this but I did a check on it with a legal person I know and apparently not public available (his specialism was criminal justice however but a google search also didn’t reveal it) . Only courtsession is open for the public. If I am not mistaking the court is in Groningen (close to ÄRA) which is like a 2,5 hr car drive for me.

DP has legally time to prepare the counterclaim till end of June if I recollect this properly. You have like two months time for this by law apparently. It takes time ofcourse to study the Ära claim and counter it

First time I hear that DP stated once that there were no 40 games. I can only recollect from memory that the space were TBL was built used to be an open space and after the end of the relation became a locked space with restricted access and camera and alarm thus unable to check anymore. They were built and to the best of my knowledge they are still there. If they would have been resold by Ära in this age of internet this would have come out by now.

Guess what, he was fired

It is a well accepted assumption that this was done because the owners where not to happy with the manager because how he handled DP. I like to believe that they disliked how he handled the contract and was unable to get the TBLs out the door.

However, after he left they apparently decided to continue the way of the former manager. So not honoring the contract. DP was prepared to give them full control of the moneyflow (TBls sn 200-300 where unpair by CT and Nitro) so payment of a considerable amount was secured. Eeven if they would make eur 1000 loss on each TBL this would still be a lot less than writing it all off. And if they would be prepared to produce more units this could be at a higher price level and it would be payback time. When the manager left I had really good hopes than

I have always understood that DP didn’t design the TBL on a hardware level.

They specified functionality to Ära and Ära had ‘free hand’ in how they wanted to reach that functionality. Suppose that a design change was needed during production to reach-maintain this functionality this would thus be a pure Ära matter.

Incoming Key post. Stay tuned for news later today

There has been a lot of debating who is telling the truth, DP or ARA.

There are people like me who take the site of DP (and yep, can be accused of over optimism ) and the definite nay-sayers. A lot of discussion is going on where in reality it is all theorizing as we all (me included) haven;t seen proof from DP to support their side of the story. Is DP or ARA to blame or …. I have chosen DP-site as you all know. Not just because I am Dutch like them but because I have had many discussions with DP, especially Barry, and my antennas tell me they are telling the truth. This FWIW to you.

Please do note that this in my book doesn’t mean that they are not responsible, hell they are. I bought with them, not ARA. However, I don’t find them guilty which, in my book at least, makes a hell of a difference.

So, what’s new here? Above has been mentioned before. What I can share now is finally (some) proof of the story behind DP and call-out ARA on a flat lie. Till now DP couldn’t share this info on paper with me but their lawyer finally approved it so here we go.

Remember the letter from ARA telling they haven’t increased their pricing? See attachment. See also attached email correspondence from Jaap DP on this point. As its in Dutch I will translate for you.

Email Jaap 28-6-2016

Hello Rene,

Why are we in business? That was 1 of the many questions I asked you yesterday and I hope to have made clear why we want to go ahead with ARA. But of course its all about the money. So I come here with back to you in regard to your proposal to raise price from € … to € …. For TBL01 till TNL100. What I note is you make a different cost calculation as in your previous proposal. You propose to use standard calculation for TBL101 till TBL300. What kind of calculation do you mean here?

In principal we agree with this higher price if you make sure that the number of boxed machines (eg on a pallet) is realized to compensate us for our losses. This in our mutual interest as you know (this is why we are in business). According to my calculation this would mean 350 machines of which 300 TBL and 50 BoP (the 2nd project). You told us you would be willing to spent a hour of calculation on this. I love to hear where your calculation results to and how you want to realize this with us.

I hope to have conveyed our passion for this and that you can apply MLR (note from Rens: MLR is a kind of game they do at the Open Circle Academy). And I am happy to invite you to next’s time Open Circle Academy
Regards, Jaap

ps: in your general conditions there is payment term of 30 days. I would like to hear from you how you are going to apply this in relation to the prefinancing of ARA as you know our financial situation via the reports from the accountant.

One day later on 29-6-2016 Rene answers:

Hello Jaap,

We go for it with our whole heart. Let’s go bowling

As agreed:
Price #1-#100 fixed, #101-#300 dependable on coming developments. Low costs version to be considered for >#200
-#300 to be delivered in 2016
BoP2.0 start deliveries in 2016, minimum 50 pcs.
Steps are taken to increase production capacity considerably after the summer holiday
Place orders in system and take care of documents.
Sort out the payments

Best regards,

Rene Versteeg
Director ARA

So this clearly shows a price change in June 2016 (an increasement even). This were ARA in February 2017 tells pricing has never changed! Remember production was supposed to have started in 2015 and we see here a debate on a price change in June 2016. So the letter of ARA was clearly a lie.
Also you see clearly that ARA has committed to a production level in 2016 and stated they will order the parts required. In October 2016 DP however had to note that by far the promised 300 TBLs wouldn’t be met. Parts for BoP20 were not even ordered!! So no way that the ARA commitment would be kept. Original contract stated 2015 deliveries, so they were already a year overdue.
This was the moment that DP had to stop with ARA seeing so many agreements broken.

And given them 51% of the shares of DP which was their idea in 2017, do you really think this is a company who would use this majority of the shares to get everybody our pinball? For sure not, they would use this majority to sell off the manufactured TBL’s to the highest bidder and close DP. Yes, that would give them a bad rep in pinballcountry but ARA being a Dutch company not into pinball, does that really hurt them? And remember, this was all needed because they didn’t do what they themselves agreed to !

So why this on Pinside? DP themselves is not on Pinside like many more manufacturers. I watch the thread and sometimes consult them where possible (this without drawing a salary by the way ). And here are the most disbelievers. So I got permission to post this.
Of course there will still be nay-sayers which is their right. EA’s have 8500 reasons to be upset, just point your anger to the right person which I sincerely believe is ARA. And again, I hold DP responsible, just not guilty.

So our best hopes are still that DP wins against ARA. This is just part of the proof they have. If we could divert the negative energy to more productive thinking this could help us (EA) all. If they win we all win. If they go bankrupt prior to the court case (which I think is ARA’s plan) we loose all.

Gofundsme or us EA perhaps ‘coughing up more money” (but than in a secure way which means money can only be used to built TBLs and will only be freed to DP once TBLs are delivered) or …..??

Look forward to your thoughts on this. Pls just make it productive. Critic is more than welcome, just well-funded please. Screaming where is my f*cking TBL doesn’t help unfortunately, wish it was that easy

I hope that I can leave my flamesuite at home this time
DP_Emails (resized).jpgIMG_5820 (resized).JPG

Really??

This post is to show for once and for all who is telling the truth in regard to the messages from ÄRA.

Also you can clearly see in the mails that Ära know the financial status of DP (the reference to the accountant). And with this knowledge still Ära agreed to the schedule. Also Jaap clearly hints at the lack of money hence the idea of extra machines to fill this gap. Nothing new for Ära. And remember, if they would have kept the 2015 contract this wouldn’t be a point of discussion mid 2016 ....

Claim from Ära is simple: money

Counterclaim from dP is equally simple: money.

Ära desires the money for services not paid, DP desires money for contracts not kept.

Back to assumptions again.

In 2015 there was enough money at the original contracted price.

In mod 2016 there was not enough money anymore because 1) price increased and 2) they were far overdue.

To cover the lack of money not only all 300 TBls should be shipped (200-300 were fresh money remember !) but also an additional 50 BoP should have been shipped. I guess also the original plan for BoP would have been an standard remake with the bop2.0 kit, not the SLE version announced March 2017. If you would market (assumption again) Bop2 at for instance 8-9KUsd, would this not be sellable? And compared to TBL a relative simple pin to built (remember the bop2 kit was already developed).

The profit from this would fill the gap left by 1) late delivery by Ära and 2) Increased price by Ära.

And remember, Ära has always fully been aware of all finances from DO. This from start to end. The header in the email states: two week overview as per contract.

And man, you guys are a tough crowd

That’s why I say back to assumptions again

Everything i can’t back up with written proof is an assumption with-by me. After all, who am I to state my antennas for truth sensing are 100% correct?? Let alone my interpretations of debates and thoughts.

No, my posts without proof are on my personal responsibility only. They should by taken by you FWIW to you, no more no less. If you decide you wanna take legal steps against DP, it’s up to you. I am not trying to stop anybody who wants this. My intentions is to show what I think is truethfull and best way to go. No more, no less.

Spent 3 hours in the car today listening pinball podcasts. Especially those from somebody based in NY. He has his opinions, I have mine. As long as we threat each other with respect I am fine with other people’s opinion, also if they don’t agree with mine. I can only learn from it and perhaps see a better way and come to another conclusion. I don’t have all the knowledge in the world after all

I don’t get it apparently.

ÄRA sents a letter accusing DP and ‘everybody’ falls over DP, they are scumbags etc.

Now the proof is here that that letter was false and zero word on this for you all ??

The letter from Rene is in my words clear.

It states for instance

Parts ordered. Not done
Increase capacity. Not done
Deliver 300 TBL in 2016 and 50 BoP in 2016. Not done.

And now a lot of you go in defense mode for ÄRA?? I feel like living on another planet.

Does it really matter if they paid fully or (big) part of the first 2 half containers? They stopped paying as the invoices where not compliant with the agreements. Knowing that Xytech built afterwards 4-5 TBLs is a sure indication that at that moment there was enough money to pay for these first containers and extra. Must be costly to make these first proto TBLs. It was making it to no 200 which was the issue (the moment of new money from cT and Nitro). Their lack of money was caused by lack of action from ARA. ÄRA has itself to blame for this !!

Sorting our payment. Remember Jaap addresses the 30 days payment term. This remark clearly addresses that question from Jaap. In my book this says: take care of it.

Look, the money we paid is (mostly) gone. I get this and we all have to accept it, like it or not and speaking for myself: I don’t like it. The responsibility lies with DP but the guilt with ÄRA. DP had all agreements with them to make TBL a reality but ÄRA decided to f*ck a stranger in the alps. By not doing what they promised to DP they drained their resources. Backup plans they didn’t fulfill as well. This is why our money is (mostly) gone.

Being a three man company DP doesn’t have unlimited resources. They trusted a (used to be) reputable company like ARA to do what they said they would do.

If the mails and contracts are good enough in court we will know sooner or later. That is, of DP stays around long enough. Remember my theory that ARa does this to block new income for DP and get them bankrupt. A bankrupt company can’t win from ÄRA ......

These emails clearly shows ARA did raise the pricing, did commit to DP to raise production capacity, did commit to order parts and all these they did (again) not do. The end of the line was met for DP.

What do you guys want to know more in order to unite and help DP ?

Yep. ARA knew at that moment of time that there wasnt enough money and stil stated that prodictuon would be increased, parts would be ordered, etc.

So how can you guys state that ARa didn’t push for all of this because of the lack of payments? There were no surprises for ARA here. They agreed to all these things knowing the financial situation and didn’t do them. Period.

Anyway. Gonna sign of for a few days in the thread. Think it is better for me. I have my believes, you have yours. My obligation to my fellow EA’s has been fulfilled.

Pls state proof of this. According to DP this is pure nonsense. No recent refunds are given and Universal didn’t care about the pre order model. So pls proof DP is lying and shut me up or stop telling this unsupported nonsense and make your apologies to the readers for wasting their time.

As I thought, no proof. And to divert attention another unproven accusation is made in regard to licensing. I am sure Roger Sharpe would be very interested in hearing from you and seeing your proof. Roger Sharpe has repeatedly stated license is OK. And if you think Roger Sharpe would cover for DP and set his reputation at stake for DP ......

Man, coming back to this thread after two weeks of rest is hard. People stating things as if they are true without any proof doesn’t make life more easy.

I suspect you aren’t even an EA as I don’t see you on the list but that list is incomplete so can’t be sure.

Why the negative approach?? You could also see it as an attempt to have enough funds to fight of ARA.

But apparently everything DP does is explained negative

Was in the open in their last newsletter

http://www.dutchpinball.com/specials

I did see an a German forum somebody posting a picture of a 16KEUR bid close to ending. So suppose it’s in that price range if that’s the info you are looking for.

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I think he meant me indeed.

Still awaiting his proof of MANY refunds. Don’t think that he knew about highdef refund (neither did I) when he made his claim.

Can’t object to Highdef wanting a refund. He didn’t get (yet) a product after all. I guess we all do know where this ends when refunds are unforced by us EA. Should this stop you? This is for every person to decide for themselves.

This is exactly why I think ARA started a courtcase. Not that they thought they would win but other buyers would cripple and bankrupt DP befor the courtcase is on. Sad day.

Wish i where. Missing USD 8500 to be Able to afford the trip

What’s happening than in December? We have in November our own Dutch Pinball Open.

Can garantuee you that this isn’t a setup from DP. They assisted in supplying materials and stuff but the initiative is not theirs. This as stated in their last NSN

Target of the Gofundme is not pinball enthusiasts, it are Lebowski dudes who are supportive. Not those participating in this thread. And Lebowski fans run in the millions ....

Be happy somebody is trying something. Like or don’t like it but just don’t donate if you don’t like it and just wish the action all the best and leave it alone. Us EA have nothing to loose with this after all, you can only win.

And I think most people agree that DP has likely made some bad business decisions but has not spend our money on Big cars and big houses. Can’t proof this statement but I know where Jaap and Barry live and what they drive for instance. No Fiji islands, illegal none licensed activity, empty cabinets at expos or boats envolved here.

AlSo seeing a dutchpinball paypal address assures you that the money is going to DP and not some conmen.

So please just wish it all the best or better, start your own initiatives. Rally up a bank willing to support this matter as some suggest. Apparently it’s very easy to get 500K I have read ....... I don’t have it for sure. Sales numbers are there but for those thinking that going to a bank with orders for let’s say 500 TBLs will get you immediate the money, try it .....

Guess I will need a flamesuit again....
Just a pitty that initiatives like this are so critized as the founders have clearly no personal gain. Just trying something to favour us EA.

If this money helps DP to win the courtcase and jumpstart the production as mentioned in the goals tell me how this doesn’t help us EA???

500k for lawyers only??

Should I translate this part of the Gofundme in Dutch for you?

Now DP needs help to pay their lawyers and to start up the production with another manufacturer

It’s a fan made movie so the rules are different when it comes to licensing. So Ballypinball, let’s see your proof of this, together with the proof of the MANY refunds ..... for a person not being an EA you are really very keen on getting this whole story to a bad end. Wonder what your motives are but glad we have half a planet between the both of us.

Not saying that Universal will not have an opinion on this but DP is not doing this. It are fans of TBL.

RTR, I am talking of the persons organizing the Gofundme don’t have any personal benefit from it besides that if it succeeds they will get their TBL as others. DP is NOT organizing this Gofundme.

But you know what. All those who know better, come with a plan. Otherwise just be happy with all efforts done to get you your game. Good or bad efforts as it may be. You have a better plan? Put it on the table.

I will leave you guys now alone. Gonna enjoy the remainder of my holiday. Cheers.

People keep coming back on the deal proposed by ARA. This was a bad offer. ARA didn’t want to deliver these 40-50 units to us EA.

They wanted their hands freed to sell them somewhere else and than terminate the contract. They wouldn’t care about the storm it would cause in pinball country as it’s not their usual market and they would declare DP bankrupt.

As they can’t proof it DP never said a word about it but Rene at that moment hinted in a
meeting to DP that that was the plan. So Can’t proof it but the fact that ARA wouldn’t settle with full access to all the money should mean something. This money however would only be freed if delivered to EA’s. Selling somewhere else makes more money or do deliver to EAs and accept less money. Than sell the remaining parts also and most of ARA cost would have been covered and they would leave Pinball business for good and leave us EA with nothing. Getting only access to the money would force them in building all the pins. Having control over DP would enable the earlier plan.

Please also do note that ARA has proven broken earlier commitments and agreements. In hindsight ARA was a bad choice

Damned, now I did answer again while I am on holiday. Enjoying view on the Fiji Islands

Let’s further agree to disagree. Hope we will ever know what is the true story. My info is after all 1sided only. It’s only fair to admit that.

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I am not a paid employee but never made a secret of it that I am a friend of Barry.

Reason I bought a TBL wasn’t because of theme but because it was made in NL by DP-Barry. And yes, it looked nice . Have spent many hours with him debating this all.

Do I know it all? Nop, am human as all of you and as I mentioned in earlier posts I have to rely on my human antenna when it comes to the stories from Barry. Have not seen any contract is what I mean.

This for what’s it worth to you.

And no, DP is not with me on holiday. Befor any wild stories arise (its pinside after all), earned my own holiday through hard working for it. Just like I paid for the TBL.

Thanks, highly appreciated. We may disagree but respect each other. After all, does any of us really know the true things? I THINK I know it because of long talks with Barry.

It’s Malaysia by the way where I am staying. Just mentioned Fiji islands because there was a time once when a pinsider, forgot his name, continuous would state Jaap and Barry would run to Fiji after collecting all the money . Not the best of my Jokes I think now

Making a self made round trip. First did 5 days Borneo and now Perenthian islands. Than we go to Taman Negara, than Penang-Georgetown and than Langkawi. Than fly to Kuala Lumpur for a few last days there and than back to NL and the hard reality of work

Flight is most expensive part. Staying here is relative cheap against Europe or US. But no pinballs here. I think better, my wife would kill me if I would play pinball here ...

Sorry RTR, have to agree with Rubberducks. Damned, would be nice if I could sync with RTR. Had a beer on the island RTR cheering to you .

ARA has for sure no interest in assembling more machines. They will sell off the finished goods and parts and that’s it. They have no roots in the pinball industry so without designers people who know what players-buyers want etc what would be the use? Any loss leftover would be a write off for them and than game over.

Must admit this has always been the biggest puzzle with me. Why did ARA do so much work and investments and than not finish at least the first 300 pcs???? Would have been more easy and even if they would have been produced at a loss for sure less a loss than they are looking at now. Guess that’s why manager Rene was fired .... business wise ARA didn’t make much sense to me.

Oh, and in case ARA wins the courtcase is EA are screwed. They will never give the 40-50 pcs to the first EA’s in line. They will go, like the parts, to the highest bidder

I am totally in agreement with this. We are finally in sync

But why was dP running out of money? The units were supposed to be built in 2015 by ARA !! Summer 2016 it still wasn’t done and 2 years running a company (1 Yr more as calculated at that moment) costs money and no new income was generated. And than ARA rose the price substantially which dP even agreed to IF they would make them all in 2016 plus 50 pcs BoP. These extra sales were needed to cover the losses caused by ARA in the first place. And guess what, in October 2016 it showed ARA hadn’t even ordered the parts for the BoP. So than DP terminated the new agreement. So much for reliable ARA. And remember, Ara had full access to the DP books. So they knew exactly in ewhich financial state DP was in when they promised delivery 2016 incl 50 pcs. BoP. They knew they had to make the extra units to cover the losses they caused but still didn’t do it. So their whining on we didn’t get paid was all their own doing !!

If I am accusing DP of anything is that they didn’t waterproof the contract against delayed deliveries. But must also admit that the behavior of ARA is unusual in Dutch business and certainly of a bigger company.

Good idea.

Guess it will leak out eventually but let’s not make it the trolls with nothing at stake to easy.

The Dutch take typical a 3 week summer Holiday. This is spread over like a 2 month holiday period when schools are closed for the summer.

So this means it’s likely that of several people are envolved in something always one is on holiday over this 2 month period. For a lot of jobs this is fine as colleagues can easily take over. With attorneys I can imagine this is more difficult as it takes a lot of time to understand a case in depth. And could also be that the holiday of ARA and DP lawyer are not in sync.

One thing I believe for sure, DP wants this to be done quickly so Barry and Jaap are not causing this delay.

Yup. I know DP has planned to do a code update if shipping restarts with some polishing and final wizzard mode. Barry already prepared animations for this which will have to be put in the code. If shipping restarts Koen will be hired on a temp base to do this.

But, focus is on hardware production first.

Yeah, the thoughts that ARA would ‘give’ the built TBLs to an EA are just phantasy. Will never happen. In case ARA gets the right to sell them (don’t forget not only UA has something to say on this but the software to run a TBL is IP from DP !) they will sell them, not give them away.

EA has a claim to DP, not ARA.

By the way, This has been covered several times already. Guess this helps to pass time

This has been my idea from the start.

Why would ARA take DP to court now? No money to be had after all. But if this would prevent DP from starting up production and raising money and thus causing their bankruptcy this might free ARA’s hands to resell the parts and finished goods they have and no worries on Intelectual Property from UA or DP.

But this old wine in new bags. Back to the private forum

I too find it a puzzling newsletter. If you think it is of personal nature why mention it at all??

Anyway, it must refer to the illness of Jaap. He has recently be diagnosed unfortunately with throatcancer and undergoing chemo therapy and radiation therapy. It’s serious and makes realize what’s most important in life and it ain’t pinball

They are supposed to go motorized up based on a projectory calculated by the PC based on the moment you release the ball. However, it can happen sometimes they are hit.

So everybody is right here

Can recall that the programmer once told me that the songs have no special protection, just WAVs. If this is right should be easy to swap out songs without any special software.

In regard to a pinball browser working on PROC, no idea. Don’t think so however one exists.

Sorry to confirm that what Kaneda is telling isn’t true.

Wonder where he got his intel, he sounded very sure.

It ain’t over till the fat lady sings but it is difficult to stay optimistic

Last word on the judge whispers first half of May. Damned to our slow legal system

I spoke to somebody this week who spoke 3 weeks ago with the director of ARA. This after the Kanada podcast, he wanted to see if it could be true. Now we know it wasn’t but he did learn the TBLs and parts are still there but the manufacturing line has been dismantled completely. Again shows ARA have no interest in starting up production again.

Even if ARA wins I am doubting they can sell the 40ish TBLs sitting there. Not only because of Universal studio but a pinball without the software where clearly the IP is with DP? Sounds useless to me.

Am To ugly to be Barry or Barry’s mom

Anyway, several people on here, like Robin or Burningman, can testify that I am a real person.

And I do fully understand your statement as i would feel the same. I have always stated I am not only an EA but also a friend of Barry and Jaap so everybody could take this into consideration when reading my info. No hiding here. And yes, I try to keep people updated as much as I can with indeed 1sided info. This is all I have to offer.

Everything was loaded in 1 truck. It was an extra long truck. Was even some room left for extras like packaging material and packaging equipment.

For somebody who can’t even get the country right you seem to know a lot of things about DP .....

ARA is indeed on holiday but DP isnt. The first 20 pc’s are ready for shipment and yesterday evening Dutch time DP received the shipping Bills from CT. So shipment will be very soon.

And testing was 100%. All have been unboxed. Firmware upgrade is to be done by the owners however (was never promised by Barry) but the newest release will be out soon. Focus was on getting games out.

So dont believe everything said in this thread.

The plaques have all been removed and stored for future use. Also the markings on the boxes have been removed.

Guess I will regret posting here as I will get burned and marked as a DP lover. So upfront, yes, I consider Barry being a friend so read the below with that in mind.

But reading all these messages mostly from people having zero knowledge claiming however to know it all and having no skin in the game get under my skin . So let me write something trying to clarify some matters or at least let you know how I see it. This especially for my fellow EA’s.

So, a lot of assumptions here but those thinking the 40 games would have to go to the 40 EA who paid for them are in the wrong. They would never have gone to us EA unfortunately

Why? Simple because there was no more money left with DP to pay them. ARA dragged everything for years and so emptying the DP pockets. And yes, they had there 1 wild party in 2014 where they brought to their penthouse their own food and drinks bought in the supermarket.... Didnt see any hookers or expensive Champaign. Damned, must have left to early

So in order to get out of the ARA claim, free the way in order to try to continue so to speak without having the ARA claim hanging above them preventing any further actions, these 40 games would need to be ‘resold’. Without a license and the software the built TBLs were worthless to ARA but in the hands of DP they are worth enough to pay off ARA. ARA had ofcourse a big write-off but suppose DP would go bankrupt they would have nothing. They chose the better something as nothing route.

So CT did the sale, paid DP, DP paid ARA. The fact that CT, who has for sure more inside info as us, trusts DP on this should tell you guys something.

So, these 40 games would never have gone to us EA, like it or not. As I see it us EA lost nothing. It was either this move with hope for the future or go bankrupt for DP.

Than people will state Barry did this to cover his own ass. Now, there was no ass to be covered. If DP would go bankrupt Dutch law protects him and his private assets would remain his assets. Only if you commit fraude directors of BV’s like DP is can be hold privately responsible and Barry didn’t commit any fraude. So declaring DP bankrupt would not influence Barry’s financial position in life. So Barry’s motivation to do this all is not to protect his financial ass but trying to get us EA what he promised, a TBL. Because yes, he feels responsible for this. Believe me, just declaring bankruptcy and move on with other things is a much easier road as the one chosen now.

And yes, he also still feels ARA are the ones having caused all this mess. That he lost the courtcase wasn’t because the judge said the lack of money wasn’t caused by ARA but just that the invoice was legit and need to be paid. That DP stated this lack of money was caused by ARA themselves would be a topic of another courtcase. This was about invoice legit yes or no. And a new courtcase would take way to long meaning DP bankrupt befor outcome was known. Which is why DP (Barry) tried, again, to reach an agreement with ARA and here we are. .

I don’t like to current situation either but it is either they go bankrupt or try this route with a, big or small, chance for success. Barry is highly motivated to try this. Not because of financials as I mentioned above but because he wants us to get what he committed to. He may not feel guilty but feels for sure responsible.

Than the part about taking via court possession of the 40 TBLs as they are assets of DP. Even if this was possible, which I don’t think so, the only people screwed would be either CT or the 40 new buyers as it would be now there money gone. Remember, they were ARA property and only the CT money ‘freed’ then. Would you wanna be responsible for this?? Taking possession of the parts than, to do what with? Sell them for like 100K, divide this over the creditors and get pennies on the dollar?? Not me.

No, fact is we are as EA’s on this roller coaster without a steering wheel for us and we can only help, or pray if you want, for a good outcome. I try to help Barry as much as I can hoping he can pull it off. Won’t be easy and it is for sure not a done deal. The biggest mistake I see that DP made is that their contract with ARA wasn’t watertight enough to enforce the original production schedule promised by ARA to have them produced in 2015....

Oh, and the story of the 51% stock share for ARA which pops up regularly. Believe me, as soon as ARA would have had this they would have resold the 40 pcs, like happens now, but than they would have closed shop leaving zero for us. They had no intention anymore in becoming a pinball production company. They wanted out ASAP. Remember, DP offered them 100% control of the money (payments would go direct to the bank account of ARA bypassing DP) but they said no. Why?

So this is my 2 cents for what’s worth to you. Hope I don’t need a flame suit.

Where do people get these ideas from?

If you would have listened to Jaap’s explanation on video you would have learned that DP AGREED with this increase if ARA would step up production and produce 50 pcs BoP (not a SLE version) within 2017. ARA agreed to do this on paper. And in fact this stepping up production DP asked for was already long overdue and not an over demand. DP just wanted them to keep finally their end of the deal which started in 2014.

End October 2017 it showed that ARA had no intention to keep there part of the deal (no parts ordered and no stepup in production). So DP put their feet in the ground and ARA reacted with shutting down. And ARA did this while they were the one who kept (again) not their end of the deal.

So do you really think that ARA would have kept their commitment to production if we would have paid the Eur 1000 in place if DP? Nope. The manager at that time with ARA had proven not to be trusted. They would have taken the eur 1000 and just put new demands on the table.

So if you scream this kind of info into the world get the picture complete please. This is public known intel so you could have known this but I guess that story isn’t fancy enough ..... DP has to fall.

Do you know how does sounds to me as an EA??

He, I can help you EA’s but you know what, middle finger to you guys.

Not helping DP equals not helping EA after all.

If you really can help but are stopped by the conclusion that Barry is a lying m*therf*cker why don’t phone him and get the intel direct from him. Or are you the kind of person who talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk .....

A NSN is expected very soon

Don’t forget, DP is more or less a 1 man company now (just Barry). And all of this is a lot of work

But, soon.

I expect that in coming NSN more of this will be revealed. Let’s await that first and take it from there

In plain sight for the whole world to see on their website .....

There is a far completed assembly manual made by Barry in the ARa and Xytech period. Seen some pages of it. Looks good and was made in solid works and comes with detailed drawings.

But far completed is something else as completed and even with a full manual this would be a hell of a job without training. We are talking here about 1000s of parts per machine I think. A technical no-go for most EA’s I think.

And last but not least, there are not parts for complete 200 games. Some parts yes (saw many lcd displays and computers for instance) but not 200 cabinets for instance. It’s like 6 truckloads of parts though and for sure a very very good start but not 200 games complete in parts unfortunately. This was also mentioned in last NSN.

If you would listen really to what he is saying around 1:27:30 you would hear that he is saying ALMOST everyone of them ......

so if there was such an offer on the table (with likely many many strings attached) he is not lying in the podcast as he clearly DIDN’T say All of them ....

Folks pls listen carefully befor another false story is leading his own life.

Ok

To avoid any misunderstanding: ALL EA’s get the extra’s.

If you go for option 2 the first game delivered at 12K5 USD will have the extra’s and the EA plague. Game 2 will be the ‘regular’ unit which is available to all non EA buyers.

If you decide to wait your original EA game will have the extra’s.

It was meant that if an EA decides to take option 2 the special features and plague will be on the unit bought @ 12K5 and not on the afterwards delivered ‘original’ EA unit.

If however an EA decided to stay with ‘just’ the original purchased unit (and not buy the 12K5 unit) it will have the plague and special extra(s).

This as I just checked with Barry to make 200% sure I understood it correctly.

Programmer Koen has left DP indeed so he is gone from DP so to speak but he has not dropped off the planet and gone forever.

I know that he is working on a code update in evening and weekend time besides his day job.

FWIW to you, I visited DP several times in the past 3 weeks and a facility is there, two new produced TBLs sat in a box awaiting payment, plenty of parts were present, playfields were on tippers and worked upon, new cabinets were stickered, etc. I leave pictures to the upcoming NSN.

And it is up to new owners to report receiving games, not DP. Some people are paranoia enough here that if DP would report it it would be seen as fake news.....

In principal they are the same.

However, doing assembly now 100% themselves they see some chances to simplify production while maintaining quality and some changes will be made in the not to distant future.. Like replacing the cable harness for the bowling alley with a simplified version plus a PCB. All minor stuff as I understood and backwards compatible.

Had a friend ordering one for his IJ and installed it few weeks ago. Scratches are indeed seen if you look carefully. And this already after several plays. However, you must look for it and it gives ease of mind.

Biggest issue I guess will be the part over the big window insert. There scratches will be more visible For the eye I expect.

I have a protector on my AcDc premium for Pinball Universe. I have the feeling they are using a material more scratch resistant. But can be just a feeling.

When it comes to pure playing pleasure no pin IMHO is worth 7K+. Price in this case is determined by rarity, not playing pleasure. I can have as much fun on playing a cheaper Brated pin as an overpriced BBB for instance. Played a magic girl once and left it after playing only two balls. That one costed double a TBL price and didn’t offer any playing pleasure.

Is a painting from Van Gogh really tenths of millions more worth to the eyes as a drawing from your kids? Nope to me.

So ‘richer’ people for whom the value of 15KUSD is the same as for me 5KUSD are those paying for this. Like people buying luxury pricey items. Cars jewelry pinballs ....

TBL is different to me as it’s made by local people who are my friends. Heck, I even help assembling them. This gives sentimental value for which I am willing to pay extra. Nothing to do with playing pleasure. Can imagine the theme does the same with other people, I even didn’t know the movie when I bought it ....

Games are being shipped to new buyers. Profit from these sales is first used to startup production and streamline it and than to start building EA games in a mix of new sales and EA games. Ratio mix unknown.