As EA #187 I have been waiting for 5 years so all of you that are complaining after 2 months should really cool your jets. Obviously before you got in the front of the line you knew that some of us have been paid in full and still have nothing. The fact that Barry is keeping this alive in some manner has given me a bit of hope, but I am really starting to get annoyed by hearing you all complain. Maybe DP should start shipping out 3 out of 5 new orders to EA's instead. From where I am standing in line, again for 5 years, I believe that is fair!

dont think its a matter of complaining.......I think its more of sounding a warning.

Cointaker should be shipping games within days of requesting/receiving payment to prevent people from getting into the same situation you find yourself in.

Like I said this situation is nothing "new" and by throwing your hat in the ring you are taking the chance. Just as us EA's did, so I think posting that you haven't gotten your game after 3 months of waiting just rubs salt in the wounds for 130 something other people!

No one is complaining, we're discussing the variance and communication, or lack thereof, from CT. No one is trying to forget the EAs, man....don't worry....it is brought up ad nauseum. I understand it, 100%.

BUT, without the CT orders that we're talking about, that lack communication and consistency, ZERO more EAs will get a game, so it goes hand and hand.

Ah, nothing like the EA guys bitching about the new buyers bitching about wait times. New buyers are funding the major fuck up EA buyers are in, and are basically the rescue mission to save the EAs. So far we've seen some EA buyers finally get their game because of the new buyers, so that is awesome to see.

The 2 buyer types are different too, it's not like a new buyer is just jumping the line in the original clusterfuck. New buyers are paying $4,000 more, and are under the impression that CT was working as an effective escrow (unlike DP taking it directly and blowing it on who knows what like with the EAs). Sure some have paid ~3 months ago and are still waiting, but new buyers have also paid deposits well before that. It's not like you just pay in full and get the game in ~3 months.

It really is odd that a new buyer would place a deposit, wait 6-8 months, and then CT takes full payment with the expectation of the game shipping in a few weeks, only for it to take longer. So why are they taking full payment so early now? Who knows, DP may need more cash upfront and may have worked something out with CT.

Rather than everyone speculate on the extreme scenarios I'd like to ask a question.

To the handful (4 or 5?) of people who have paid Cointaker in full and have no news on shipping - can you please confirm you have called Melissa and spoken to her and that she has nothing to offer you in terms of when the item might ship (whether it is on a boat now) etc? What were her exact words?

With the internet so many people send an email or two and do not get a response and then draw assumptions or make conclusions. Sometimes talking to a human being 1-on-1 about the situation provides so much information and in this particular case could eliminate harmful speculation that somehow 1 or 2 different companies are conspiring to take money for unfinished product.

To the person who is ready to say "she should respond to my emails" while I agree with this theory I want to suggest that it is possible she did not receive it or has overlooked it. You can't say "for certain" that she has no information until you hear it from her lips or actually receive confirmation in writing from her that she doesn't know where your game is or when it will ship.

Let's all take a deep breath and work with facts and not speculation.

They have. No responses or vague responses.

More than 4 or 5. Not everyone posts their thoughts on Pinside.

Well said!

The part you mentioned last - is the scary one to me. I sure hope not as CT was protecting new investors money so the same situation (EA buyers) would not happen again.

No communication by CT makes people’s minds wonder.

Not me making determination - came from Rensh. End of week has come and gone- hopefully this week on NSN.

Cointaker could be doing a much better job at being pro-active about managing customers who've they've broken their promise to after taking $12,500 from them. They are not proactive in providing updates at any point along the process, and you need to basically beg them for an update via phone or email. If anyone has a different story, please post here. I guess this is the nature of having a monopoly over a rate and desired item, where people are going to tolerate a lot to get what they want.

Can anybody direct me to an article, podcast, or post # with a comprehensive write-up with the issues plaguing the manufacture and shipping of TBL? I'm super interested in the timeline and explanations, but have only found smatterings of info.

We are installing the topper but this is the plug we received. What do we need to do to get the topper to work?

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A socket to match that plug perhaps? Sorry, not much help I know, but I couldn't resist

Drew. Like many I simply tied it into the 12v power connection to the back glass. That plug is ok but a pain to turn on/off. I think there are a few posts mine included showing how to tap it in. Real easy promise.

See this post:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-official-club-thread/page/11#post-5290517

I put my money down around Sept 17, 2017. I got in line right behind the EA's. My money was with my distro for over 2 freakin years which is a small amount of time compared to the EA's. I received my game in late 2019 which was 26ish months after I slapped my money down.

QSS

I got on the "list" July 2019, just after the 40 ARA games were spoken for and I tried--too late--to get one. I would call Melissa about once per month. She was always very pleasant and seemed eager to help but never had much in the way of concrete info for me. There were a lot of "you're about number 30 on the list", which did dwindle down to number 2 with my most recent call to her, and multiple estimates of times in months or weeks during those calls, which did get smaller over time but also frequently came and long went. Then I got this email.

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My impression is that the unreliability of hard numbers from Dutch Pinball was leading to her really not having a concrete number for how many they were making and how many would be going to EAs vs. new buyers like myself.

You are absolutely right and I agree your words but please keep in mind that the new buyers bring the fresh money for the EA´s . I am sure, the profit on 2 games will not be enough to produce 3 EA games, pay the loans, rent, parts and some foot for the family.
So I hope that all EA´s stay patience and get their paid games !!

This was the response from Melissa this week after I sent a handful of emails about my place in the list and timing of shipment after payment:
“ Normally about 4-6 weeks, but with covid and parts delays it has been a little slower.

Unfortunately.”

I find it troubling that she is accepting payments in full from people like you, 10+ weeks after many of us have paid in full and received nothing. It's not adding up. This sounds like a game of musical chairs unfolding.

Totally unacceptable by CT to accept full deposits and not shipping the machines.

When I got contacted by DP I paid in full and 2 weeks later the machine was delivered.

Yeah, no dude, aint gonna happen. One of the reasons DP is still in business is because of new buyers willing to spend 12k+ on a toy.

If DP was running a sweatshop in China maybe, but unfortunately they run a business in the Netherlands with high operation costs.

Did you pay yet or do you plan to?

No I completely understand that without this money we would be sunk, but it is still difficult to know that you dropped $9500 over 5 years ago and have nothing to show for it. Also, due to the few NSNL's that we have received over the years, this seems to be the only place to get any updates. I mean we have been told to be patient and I think we have past that point. I am still hopeful, but as time goes by it seems like its less and less likely!

If they are unsure when the game will ship they should not be requesting payment. What communication are they receiving from DP that causes her to ask for payment? I wouldn't think it would be as vague as her responses to customers.

I paid in full back in mid August. Very frustrating.

In defense of Melissa/CT her TBL time estimates are only as good as the info that she is getting from Barry/DP. The good news is that even if you have to wait longer than expected for your game after you pay your invoice, your money is 100% safe with Melissa. I was an early EA and paid DP directly, I did end up getting my game but looking back it would have been much smarter/safer for me to have ordered thru Melissa, as she protects her customers money while they wait for their game and gives excellent support after the sale.

I paid. I should probably take some responsibility for the preemptive invoice by calling Melissa frequently and asking her "when". I was ecstatic when I received the invoice.

When did you pay your deposit? I got on the waiting list July 2019 by directly speaking to Melissa and giving her my info when she wasn't accepting any money yet because it was only promises from Barry at that point. When DP started actually shipping newly made games months later, a deposit could be put down on CT's website and new people started getting on the list. I called Melissa and she said my position would be moved the wrong way if I put a deposit down and assured me to wait for an invoice to pay in full when she had a game for me. However, I know there are several people who got on the list through online deposit months after I got on the list and received a game prior to me getting the invoice. I called Melissa and she assured me these were special circumstances. My point is that if you put your deposit down after July 2019 and received your invoice prior to 11/9/20, then perhaps my paying in full (or even getting the game) prior to you receiving a game is righting a wrong towards me rather than creating a wrong towards you.

My feelings about the situation are mostly positive. I think Barry legitimately knows that they screwed things up and is clearly willing to work hard to make it right. Maybe it's all some elaborate scheme to get people to pay $12.5K for the game and screw the EAs but I doubt it. I think Melissa is doing the best she can with the info and production she is seeing from Barry. I know my money is secure with her and I am either receiving a TBL pin or my $12.5k back, even if that is several months away; I can wait. I feel good thinking that my purchase will be 1/3 or 1/4 progress towards an EA's game getting to them.

Only the side blades left to do! Damn this pin is beautiful

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With ToucanF16 paying in Aug and still nothing, then the request for payments from others months later and still nothing, it may be CT trying to bulk up a container of some sort. I talked to Melissa in early Oct. and she did mention shipping was a major hurdle cost wise with DHL. She mentioned how they were trying to figure out how to get them to CT first, and distribute from there.

"They come over via DHL or Fedex airfreight. Trying to get them drop shipped directly to you but right now with covid they want to charge 2k per game. so we are bringing them in 4-6 at a time and shipping them out."

Started the hobby last year. Can I ask why have people paid in full 5 years ago and still have not received their game? I am a patient man but damn I couldn’t be that patient. That would be horrible to pay all that $$$$ and still have nothing. Why is it taking so long for this game to roll out?

Waiting list Jan 2019 w/$1000 deposit paid. Invoiced on Sept 1st and paid in full. Supposedly my game is shipping next week.

Damn that’s horrible. I won’t pay for a game before I play it but couldn’t imagine prepaying for one that is not even made yet. Thanks for giving me a quick synopsis of what happened.

I honestly think this is the only hobby where people (including myself) are trusting enough to blindly fork over $6K-$12.5K in cash for a non-manufactured product. You then have to hope and/or pray to get the final product. You also have to hope that DHL safely delivers it and that there aren't any major issues with the pin once out of the box.

People have a right to be nervous or antsy, especially considering history and track records.
I wish distributors and manufacturers would put themselves in the customer's shoes. Would they be as trusting as us?
I get annoyed when a company uses the "we have been busy" excuse, especially when you compare my level of work and fiscal responsibility against theirs. I'm positive that others here are in my same boat.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with expecting communication and transparency, especially when you're talking this amount of money.

With all this said, I know that CT and DP will eventually come through if you're waiting on a game (note how I said "eventually"). Just stay on top of them.
I also think it's OK to vent in this thread, as it provides transparency to the EAs (even if it's technically salt on a 5-year old wound).
This is all coming from a former EA who bought a $12.5K game, so I've been on both sides.

I see it less as venting, and more in keeping people's expectations in check.

Thinking about buying a TBL? You're going to wait a long time, have very little and poor communication with CT and essentially none with Manufacturer, and you'll have many broken promises / dates along the way and have to practically beg for updates. Add a near 12 month total wait, and if you still want to hand your money over, go ahead.

See? You're venting.
No need to keep expectations in check, as you're not telling anyone in this thread anything new (especially those who have been waiting on the sidelines for 5+ years).

Has anyone found a better fitting lockdown bar for their TBL?

Every WPC95 lockbar will fit. There are enough dealers out for that part.
I bought a used one and will powdercoat it in copper .

Does the WPC95 lockbar fit better than the one DP uses?

Assuming you adjusted the screws for a tight fit of the lock down bar?

Yes, the DP lockbar is slightly to bright, WPC / WPC95 fits perfect.

By 'bright'... you mean long?

Let me rephrase that it actually locks down perfectly, it just that the lock down bar hangs over a bit on both sides of the game... every TBL I have seen is like this.

PS. CPR 9999 I sent you a PM

It has a tight fit but on every side I has some extra space, so it’s to wide so to speak.

These lockbar come from Mirco. DP is sourcing another supplier and o think already some samples are delivered to them which should be less wide

Here you go...

Dear Sean

Firstly, we hope you are staying safe and healthy through these unusual times!

We hope you will enjoy this update about production, software, our new facility and some other stuff we want to share with you! So put on your bowling shirt and let's get rolling!

Production update
It has been about a year since we started (again) with the production of the game. Much has changed since then. We have now found a good flow in production and we now build about 4 games per week.

The biggest challenge turns out to be sourcing parts. With about 650 different parts and 2500 parts in total that we buy from about 70 different suppliers AND the Worldwide pandemic, it is quite a challenge to get everything right and on time. This part of the production is probably even more difficult than manufacturing the game itself, but we have also mastered this part of production by now. And so it's time for the next BIG step!

Two weeks ago - on October 28 - we signed the lease for a new building. The new building is about five times the size of our current building and offers the opportunity to expand production. Our goal is to get to at least 10 games per week within a few months. We will move in a few weeks and the new location will be fully operational from December 1st.

So - as we speak - we are looking for new people to join our team.

Our new HQ:

Koen is back at the base!
We are happy to announce that programmer Koen is back at Dutch Pinball! From December, Koen will join our team again and will, among other things, continue working on software updates for The Big Lebowksi and other (future) projects.

Game Improvements
When we started manufacturing games again in our own facility last year we faced quite some new challenges. Building a complex machine like this is very time consuming and this motivated us to improve the game further and make it easier and faster to assemble. Now that we are in full control of production we have made a lot of improvements to the game.

To name a few:
Improved cable harness Cabinet and Bowling Alley
Added Distribution PCB's for the Cabinet and Bowling Alley
Improved Mini Playfield Car Door Assembly (stepper motor moved up to mini playfield)
Improved Mini Playfield Parking Targets
Much more sturdy Playfield Target Brackets
Improved Bowling Alley Ball Launcher Assembly
Better Bowling Alley Mini Pins mechanism
A much nicer decal on the Bowling Alley Pins
New Sparkly Gold Paint on the "Boobie" Caps
New PET-G "unbreakable" Plastics
Much nicer (spray)paint job on the Display panel and the Wood Rails
Improved Kickback roll over switch
Early Achiever Delivery Planning
At the moment, one of the four games we build is an EA. We expect that in a few months we will be able to ramp up to ten games a week and then we want to make 3, or even 4 out of 10 games an EA game. As soon as we are running at a fixed pace, we will send every EA an email with an expected delivery date.

We hope you appreciated and enjoyed this update. We'll send out more updates as soon as we have more 'new shit' to tell you.

Until then, stay tuned.

Best regards,
Team Dutch Pinball
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Sounds like they have made some good upgrades to the game, also more code coming is great news!

Oh, NSN has just been sent out