I think I'll wait and have my game go steerage class with the others.

Thanks as always for all your info Rens!

Think this video belongs here.
Playing The Big Lebowski at TPF2016 against Jaap!

We're long overdue for a meaningful look at code progress.

Thanks for making this available! Cool to see the latest gameplay action. The software seems more developed since the factory tour, but appears to still have a long way to go yet (hopefully).

Also - from watching the video, it almost seems like the sub-playfield bowling alley was leaning to the side somewhat as the best shots resulted from the "bowling ball" heading to the right out of the holder. Those starting out straight down the middle often resulted in gutter balls surprisingly.

Agreed. We're actually long overdue for having machines in houses and bars. I'm ok with that for now as long it seems like meaningful progress is being made, but how would we know? Sure would be nice if DP could finally get this communication thing down. Where are we at?

see the TPF2016 DP seminar at

Some of your questions might be answered

Rule discussion and explanation begins at 21.35 of the video. I think the game already has a lot more rules and depth than people realise.

Just watched it, liked the talk.. Does cover a lot of software. Looks like maybe everything just about is stackable and so maybe isn't as much a 'mode' based game as some of us were thinking it might be. The word mode here might be better described as achievements? Hence, the code might be farther along than is obvious as there isn't going to be obvious modes in as far as a lot of fanfare / music / lighting changes etc to announce enter/exit of a mode. Going to rewatch the dead flip video with this in mind.

Is that what others who have either played or also watched the above video took away as well?

Thank you Rensh!!!

Has anyone here actually played TBL? I was thinking about joining the pre-order club so one of the first games I played at TPF was TBL...unless something changes between now and when it's released, I won't be joining the club after all...I suggest that if you're on the fence, play it before you drop 10k on it...

Yeah so for those without patience..

Character 'modes' sound like:
- hit the character shot to spell name
- after that, character can be collected at scoop
- which activates a 30 second blinking arrow for that character for which you get extra points.
- you can choose to hold off collecting character and for every additional character you spell before collecting at scoop, they become an add a ball multiball when you do finally collect. There is also a point multiplier for the additional cashed in characters at once.

Now in dead flip video replay I haven't seen a multi collect yet but did see someone spell Jesus, collect, and then his shot lights. Saw a guy hit the shot and got the 'Jackpot' callout. It wasn't Jesus themed or anything, nor did any additional Jesus clip play. So, a little anti-climatic.. If they can add some light shows and stuff and maybe more character focused, would be better.

Bowling - spell bowling, start bowling. The purpose of the challenges were not discussed

White Russian - lite white Russian ingredients to light a white Russian multiplier. No details provided.

Mark it zero - in and outlanes then to scoop to get a saucer hurry up.

Rug modes - knock rug back to reveal scoop, make scoop, get a movie clip then random white arrows will light.. Make those Then make scoop (this part a little fuzzy.. Says 'relock' in the power point.) Get video clip.. Mode is complete.

Dude ramp multiball - two light locks, lock 2 balls, get multiball

Mystery awards - spinner 30 times, then to scoop to collect mystery award.. Looks cool.. Jackie treehorn doodles.

Super Jackpot and car modes not discussed nor anything to do with nihilists.

So after sitting on it overnight. Some thoughts:

- these aren't necessarily the rules I expected.. I'm a 'modes' guy in the traditional sense (IJ, etc) and this is not that it seems.

- This looks geared towards tournament folk with risk/reward points strategies. I am wondering a bit how this plays out in home environment. People like ACDC in home, so certainly doable.

- however, I also own NGG which isn't mode based but plenty of fun.

- I really hope that what we saw at TPF is basically the tree of the achievements/code but is not the final amount of fanfare for actually completing things. There is little/no light shows that I can tell.. Completing something looks/feels no different than not doing it. Yet the attract mode is the most impressive light show ive ever seen. Gotta feel like you did something when you complete this stuff! I know the theme is subdued but we are playing pinball here!

Anyone else reflect on this TPF new shit or am I the asshole?

You're not an asshole. The code they've shown leaves a lot to be desired for a game that's been in development for so long.

If things don't change soon I may end up selling my game without opening it.

I am a little disappointed and underwhelmed myself and I've been a big proponent of DP. Once again, we are left out of the mix before/after a major pinball show. The preorder folks have to count on others to get updates on their purchase. It should not be this way.

I have not had the opportunity to see or play TBL in person yet, so I've been forced to rely on gameplay videos and the opinions of those that have. Even taking into consideration that it's likely the first time for many of the people playing TBL in the Dead Flip streaming video, I think that many of their facial expressions (or lack thereof) while playing the game are somewhat concerning.

That said, I'm looking forward to making my own assessment when my game finally arrives and am hopeful for continued code development in the meantime.

I went to TPF with the mindset that if I really enjoy the game, I will talk to CT about ordering. Unfortunately I could not bring myself to do it based on the condition of the machines at the show, and for the same reasons others have previously mentioned (weak flippers, mediocre bowling mini game, etc.).

I still believe the game has great potential and I still hope to own one some day. It just needs a little more polish.

Though that might be true, we also know how well BOP 2.0 has been programmed, and that took quite a lot of time as well.
Things like lightshows surely won't be a problem, for the programmer has created great tools for ie. creating cool lightshows for BOP (I'm sure with having tools for later DP-games like TBL in mind). I think they've shown with BOP 2.0 that nobody has to worry about code. For what the rules will be like, that's a matter of taste: some likes mode-based games, others like games like MM, AFM, etc. Maybe they can change some rules when there's enough feedback.

I haven't played it enough to comment on the rules, the only thing I fear is how much the bowling will be used: it's nice and well made, but I think it should be used very little to keep it fun. Surely they can make a setting, so you can chose if it's 'bowling heavy' to show everyone that 'toy', or a lot less bowling, to keep it fun in the long term.
I really liked the game at the DPO (looks, graphics, layout/shots, sound) and it was fun to play even though rules were still early. The most important thing of doubt for me is the bowling toy and how much it will be used, but I have a lot of faith that it'll be a game with great ruleset (even though it takes a lot of time), a well polished game (art, sound, lights, graphics) and a great game overall.

If you didn't watch Jaaps talk all the way through, you may have missed when he walked through all the service menus. That part looked good.. And to address :

So in the service menu's you can control how many shots are already lit /spotted before the game starts for all the major shots. Jaap said they had bowling cranked up to have most/all letters of BOWLING already spotted for the player so that even in a show environment where you just get 1 game, everyone could get a good chance to play the bowling alley. So the fact that it would normally take 7 shots to start it would of made it a lot more rare than the dead flip stream.

Um, yeah - Shadow was such a good movie...oh look, you already own a great playing pin based on a shitty movie. Congrats!

If you want to see what going on with engineering sample 5 check it out. This game is at Cafe FF, in the wild, in the Netherlands.

http://www.dutchpinball.com/tbl/live/es5

Pretty sure that when you say see what's going on, you mean see stats and info ... but pretty cool anyways and great that info is readily displayed. Wonder if there is a way to get more specific data? Stuff like how many - multiballs started, modes completed, jackpots/super collected, highest jackpot/super value collected, extra balls earned, inserts lit etc. Those are the kind of indicators that might actually help a player alter his game strategy, and also result in a big jump in scores.

Actually...there is a feed where you can see the animations and scoring from the LCD in real time when the game is online. Earlier it was online and you could see it....check back from time to time...its still early for the bar to get crowded but I bet in a few hours we will be seeing some play.

here is a screen shot of what it will look like when it comes back online. The LCD opens up at the top of the screen. this pic was captured from here just now:
http://www.dutchpinball.com/bop2/live/GMBOP

bop_live_(resized).JPG

Wonder if there a way to turn profiles off? I saw a lot of people confused in the dead flip stream by adding multiple players because the profile select and other splash screens were in the way.

I mean, on route (if any TBLs make it), let's face it.. It'll either be skipped, or full of 100 people named after various vulgarities .

Similar is true when I have a party at my house for non pinheads, pinball is intimidating enough without login screens. For those situations I'd rather it be turned off, or if I must, have an auto-login to some dummy profile / skip the whole prompt.

It is 3:17pm there right now .... almost 5 o'clock. I'll give potential patrons a few more hours of beauty sleep before checking back in.

I believe so. On Sunday at TPF no one was fiddling around with profiles when starting a game.

I couldn't agree with this more. It's ridiculous that we have to rely on people like Rensh to provide updates when DP should be communicating with us directly. As for the code, I can only hope that what we're seeing is still very early - the website used to talk about pinball 2.0, and what we've seen is hardly revolutionary.

As an aside, thank you Rensh for putting in so much effort for keeping us in the loop, it's very much appreciated.

The game looks great, but I couldn't stand the waiting around without any communication.

FW 1.17 is already at test?

will there be a new beta soon

Q: WTF are these guys doing at shows when their order cue is already full?

A: CASHFLOW

I guess you could say the same thing about JJP and Hobbit.. News flash both company's want to sell more machines

The only DP order que that is full is the pre order que (achiever editions) I would assume they would like to get orders for a few hundred more machines.

PS. W#F are you doing in this thread?

I am directly attacking the pre-order model that has sopped over a million dollars out of the market over the past few years.

No doubt Concrete. Wouldn't you think a little better communication with the people that are fully paid would help that cause?

I don't get it. Maybe it's a new kind of marketing tactic

Totally agree Ice DP's communication has been sub par! (Maybe it's a Dutch thing)

Come on DP kick us a NSNL with some bread crumbs on how the code is maturing... Please

Pinside is a Dutch thing...

nice. I see what you did there.

Are DP allowing preorder transfers?

Before (Phil era) they said they will only refund your money. Have to ask them if anything has changed.

In the dead flip video, starting at the end of minute 34 you can see a rug mode started , then a double cash in of Maude and Jesus with the add a ball.

Some things to improve in my opinion:
- use the letter trails for these shots, at least for the character mode 30 second window to add some flair. I actually like the whole add a ball thing rule otherwise.

- rug mode.. So the second you start it, the rug closes down / resets. Why not leave it open and additional shots to rug are worth something.. Plus it makes you feel like you are in a rug mode, vs it looking like it just moved on to being reset. And why, in jaaps talk, are the shots 'random' per rug mode? Why not tie them to the characters in the scene. And, I have no idea how the rug insert is chosen, but if you can start a rug mode that you want to start (rotated on some feature.. Ramp/autoslings whatever), because you are good at the associated shots.. That would be better. Like in this instance, the scene is Maude on the zip line painting.. So, should be Maude and Dude? Instead.. Looks like Donny and Jesus lit.

Other nits-
- dude arrow was lit whole time. I assume this was because lock was lit? But only one of the lock lights was lit.. So..?
- guy complained about sticking flipper. Obviously, needs a look at.
- I don't want any more stranger callouts.. The 'Jackpot' one is getting on my nerves already just watching videos. I don't know where we are with disembodied quotes.. But there is plenty of lines to cover positive and negative progress that could be used without switching to the video clips (if allowed) or using the custom stranger ones.

Good observations and suggestions! I noticed a few things such as the rug mode not advancing past a certain point either, but then wrote off analyzing the current code further as it seems to just be in "draft mode".

I'd have to watch the video again to verify this, but it also seemed that the rug mechanism took a few shots in one game, but didn't move. (?)

May just be wishful thinking on my part too, but FWIW, I'm hoping the bowling mechanism eventually comes into play in the game for more than just winning each character's ball. Its obviously a major (and no doubt costly) feature in the game and there are lots of possibilities there for incorporating more aspects of bowling into the rules set. On the flip side, I realize that some players may not want the pinball play interrupted more, but it's the bowling feature as well as the TBL theme that drew me to this game.

Calm down. DP knows upfront I am recording their seminars and posting it on Pinside and thus they can concentrate on getting the games out.

So if me posting videos means DP is getting attacked as I do it and they not I can better stop and let DP do it on their time and slow the process down if this is what is desired by the community. Somewhere I have the feeling however as this is not what most of us want

And yes, if it is game changing info VIPs should get it same time as a seminar but their was no such info in this seminar. Should Jaap stand in front of a mirror and record his speech to put it in Pinside prior to TPF? No is my opinion

I think DP is giving a lot more info on what they are doing as others do. Have you ever seen a seminar from Stern showing pinball rules, software developments etc.? Also visited John Trudeau seminar at TPF and GB is a nice pin, enjoyed playing it, but if you think John told anything on software etc you are mistaking. And yes, it was an entertaining seminar

Than about current software status. I know for a fact that JP de Win and Barry and Koen are locked in a room, not being allowed to leave it and occasionally a hamburger is thrown into the room to make good progress on software. Time first being spent to get production up and running is now freed for software developments (meaning not only inventing rules but also animations etc).

You can state that game is already long in development but how much can you do without approval of universal? And that took forever Licensing is really hard

Approval is now there for like 200 clips or so, so now some real progress can finally be made

Also their was a change from Windows (BOP2.0) to current Linux (TBL and future pins) which took time to redevelop their software tools.

Believe me, they are working hard but making pinball ain't easy and the last part is always the most difficult part. Especially for us buyers as we can already smell the game which makes us even want to have it more thus waiting gets more and more difficult. He, I am number 164, I have to wait still a lot longer as most of you Do you hear me complaining?

So chill out and enjoy the unboxing videos expected within a few weeks

And yes, always their will be people who will think TBL is not great but that's all about taste. Some people like blonds and some brunettes after all

Stern doesn't take fully paid pre orders years in advance. Just sayin

Hope you guys are unboxing soon. That's all that really matters

Stupid comparison, Stern isn't a startup company.

I cannot stress how disappointed I would be that they keep each rug mode random. How utterly terrible and lazy. Each mode is exactly the same then and wouldn't feel at all like actual modes. TOTAL LETDOWN!

Well, the code at least can change with feedback possibly (or maybe was just demo code anyway). The game is gorgeous, it is capable of awesome light shows (see attract modes ) so the package is there.

Further thoughts on the rug modes. So let's say you start this particular scene, two shots light up (Maude and dude, not random). You get those. Then it advances to the conversation with Uli .. Maybe something where the spinners make Uli giggle.. So have to get one hard spinner hit to complete that phase. Within this scene, the dude makes a white Russian.. So make that a completion criteria as well. And maybe not make this linear if that's too hard / not fun (white Russian probably just picked up while hitting the ball around vs aimed at), just have to do all that in any order to complete or something.

Just spit balling here to make the rug modes more special than what was described at the TPF talk. Maybe he was just describing the show code vs planned implementation anyways so my comments are moot.

Barry and Koen who are developing the rules are tournament players themselves, just like Lyman Sheat.

You can bet your life on it they will create an interesting gameplay as this how they want to have it also as a player.

They are in this for the idealism and pinball hart, don't think you are starting up a pinball factory in order to get rich .....

So give them a couple of weeks to deliver the pin's, mature the software befor stating capital letters that it is a total let down.

And sd_tom, keep the ideas coming can't garantuee it but good chance a DP man sees it and might think, hmm, good idea

I think code evolution will be good once folks have their games too. I know this is one of the good things of how Stern is releasing games as players who get time on a machine will inevitably figure out things that the development team can't. I'll be sure to host a bunch of tournaments on mine once I get it and share that info with DP. Maybe at that point a separate thread with code bugs/ideas would make sense at that time.

You can't be serious.

Spooky, Heighway and P3

Excellent ideas Tom, hopefully they are listening. A ton of input on the Spooky thread that the programmer Fawzma listens to and incorporates. Along with everybody else involved.

Well, some of these posts have talked me off of the ledge. Thank you, fellas.

People throwing their toys out of the pram re: code and rules need some perspective, especially those holding Stern up as some shining beacon.

A lot of the rules are obviously placeholders and will change or become more elaborate, especially as more callouts, video and animations are added.

Re: Stern .... have people already forgotten how bad a lot of their recent games were at launch? Far worse than this. I played a TWD LE at an arcade at the end of last year, and it was running code 5+ updates old. It wasn't just bad, it wasn't even worth playing. WWE was left in a dire state for an entire year, and the most recent update only included a few rule changes and bug fixes ... no implementation of any of the many missing modes, wrestlers and art and sound assets. GB looks extremely limited for a game 3 weeks from shipping (though what is there looks ok). In terms of rules and DMD stuff it seems very basic, and number of sound effects and callouts seems incredibly small for a game 3 weeks from first delivery, so I'm not sure a lot has changed.

I don't really expect any of the manufacturers to buck this trend, as in the software and video game industry people are expected to pay in full for far from feature complete or hugely buggy alphas - a situation far worse than in pinball imo.

Given what they've done with BoP 2.0 I'm confident that DP will make TBL into a very compelling game. Maybe even a classic.

The only thing that really concerns me is how relaxed, chilled out and low tempo the music is. I almost feel like they should be running it at 1.1x speed. The pacing seems on the slow side for pinball. If that isn't changed, then I think sound effects need to up the tempo and make things more frenetic at least some of the time.

Yeah I can't believe that the rug modes will remain in that state. No way they'd dedicate the rug mech (a centerpiece of the game) and the entire middle of the playfield with the rug inserts just as an excuse to show videos and repeat random shots? Please tell that isn't the case. Hopefully we'll hear a little more from DP on this soon.

Shoot, just steal ideas from other games.
Rug Pisser mode - Bash rug up the middle for increasing point totals. Like bull dozer in Road Show.
Walter Beating in Larry's neighbors car - 100 switch hits in limited time to score a bonus similar to Bonesaw in Spider-Man
Etc, etc.

Those ideas aren't outstanding but they are miles better than repeating random shots over and over again. No way DP can be happy with that, right? Have to believe those are placeholders, but they did not indicate that as far as I can tell.