So, now the schedule conundrum's all cleared up, any thoughts on what theses tantilizing extras might be?? Prototype apron perhaps... a topper of some sort... ??

100% exactly right.

The fact that they are offering this to ea’s is a bit of a Freudian slip as to perhaps a lack of demand on the game.

We will see.

It was still a leap of faith, as you were sending $12,500 and there was a chance you wouldn’t get a game. I am certain some got cold feet when it came time to wire the money.

I guess there was always that chance but the payment through CT seemed pretty safe for the 40 premade games.

With Barry now directly taking preorders it’s not clear if he’ll be sticking to his “no preorders” pledge, or if DP will try to start collecting money again before games are complete.

Is the new price 12,500 U.S. Dollars? Or Euros?
I see people using both in their posts.
Just looking for clarifications.

I was one of those who backed out with CT. I’ve had a deposit with Melissa for many years but found another TBL last summer from another Pinsider and didn’t need a second one. I have cash in hand but didn’t believe in flipping it for a huge profit. I offered my spot to another EA so he can get a game without waiting.

He gave both. US price is USD 12,500 shipped.. and a Europe price in Euros (different price)

My 3 : 1 ratio was only an example. I just believe there should be some stated estimate of the number of new paid games that will ship before the first EA games are released.

There must be SOME estimate of the costs involved in order to arrive at the 500 game number. There is no financial incentive for DP to ship the EA games, so if the plan is to sell 365 new games before a singe EA game ships that might as well be made clear up front.

Also, apologies to @fosaisu. My intent was to give you credit for posting the numbers, not imply that you were responsible for them.

The European price being 11,995 PLUS shipping... Despite the games having to be shipped 'across the pond', US buyers get a better deal due to us Europeans having to pay VAT.

which is why I didn't say the europe price included shipping... only that the US price was 'shipped'

I'm sure there is, but I think Barry would be hesitant to make these figures public in case there ends up being unforseen extra costs that would make the initial estimates wrong... The pinball community can be unforgiving when manufacturers don't get the numbers right... Also, I know for a fact that he's only just finished doing the inventory check of the parts from ARA, so any attempt to give a half accurate figure would be foolish before he'd done this...

I spotted that too... you said it good.

On the podcast, Barry said that at the start they'll need to sell an (unspecified) number of games to get things up and running, and then as they go they'll intersperse shipments to EAs with shipments to new paying customers (at an unspecified ratio, presumably varying based on DP's production cash burn). If the actual plan turns out to be ship nothing to EAs until 365 new games are sold, that'd be a serious departure from what Barry has announced to the public, and also very concerning for the EAs as the likelihood of them ever seeing games decreases if they're not being made side-by-side with new paid games.

No worries, I figured that's what you meant, just didn't want to give people the impression I have insider knowledge.

You can have doubts about their plan (I think everyone has some doubts, from little, with a lot of hope to a lot of doubts with very little hope), but I thought the 500 was the total amount of games that had to be produced? Still quite a lot have to be sold, but I think it's not right to just say that Barry said 500 games still have to be sold from this day on.
I know, it won't change the way you think, but it's not right to just quote higher numbers than were told.

Just out of interest, wasn't the rock-star-esque announcement of TBL at EXPO the same time as AMH was was also taking orders?

My expectations are that Barry has to produce a certain number of TBL's at $12,500 each before mixing EA TBL's into production.

I don't see any EA machines being built with the parts on hand.

Yes... I'd say that's a pretty accurate assessment of the situation...

My personal wager is that this will not be the case... don't forget that some of the parts on hand are for 200 games... I'm betting that we see an EA game made within the first 10 games made...

I'll take that bet.

I wouldn't be totally shocked, DP needs to establish credibility for this project so it may be worth it to Barry to include an EA machine or two in the first shipment to demonstrate that DP does intended to eventually cover everyone.

For clarity he didn't say it wouldn't be a double pay EA.

Mmm, trying to get my head round the double negative on that one... but its true anyway... I didn't say it... ahhh, I get it now... sorry, it's late... So, for clarity, I'm not talking about a double pay EA... I'm talking about an already paid EA game that brings no extra cash to DP of course... I'm betting that one of those will be made in the next 10 games... It's highly likely that the others will be double pay games also going to EAs obviously, and way further back in the line than the EA who actually gets the EA game I'm talking about... seeing as he'd be the next in line!

OK.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-preorder-club/page/26#post-3115051

Just reminiscing... the first ever delivered TBL unboxing...

while I don't have a horse in this race, I see this situation as the following:
barry has lost the trust in everyone that backed the project but have not received a machine (the EAs), and there is no way in hell he will ever vindicate himself until every last one of the EAs is compensated in full

while you can still choose to believe that he has every intention of making good on building and delivering the remaining 125+ machines to the EAs, he did not come across in the podcast with jonathan and martin as someone who was remorseful of their actions or 100% sincere about doing whatever it takes to accomplish this feat

that being said, it would be in his best interest that if he intends to continue own a stake in DP, to formally (and publicly) declare that he will:
- take absolutely no additional funds in pre-order money
- take no payments until games are ready to ship
- take no salary from DP until every last EA is compensated in full

FWIW, on the podcast Barry did state definitively "no more pre-orders." How that translates in real life remains to be seen, but my understanding is for US customers the orders will all go through CoinTaker and be handled like the last 40 games (i.e. no cash goes to DP until games are ready to ship). But for Europe and the rest of the world DP is the distributor, and I'd be much more worried about the precise arrangements if I were ordering direct from DP and didn't have a trusted middleman like CoinTaker involved.

Nothing at all was said about salary, distributions to DP shareholders, etc. DP is trying to convince new buyers that they're actually helping the EAs get games through their purchases, and don't have to feel guilty about doing business with DP. That's a tougher sell if all of the money coming in isn't being directed right back into production. So I agree, clarification on this point would make everyone feel better about the business plan, and probably even help move games.

Just to get the record straight... you're wrong.

1/135 isn't a great ratio.

True... but what makes you think that's the ratio? You must realise there are others out there who still trust Barry... they just don't see the point in voicing their opinions here... I, however, find it entertaining for some reason...

You are clearly his biggest fan (or relative). Nothing wrong with believing.

To be honest I'm sure there are bigger fans than me, but they're just not as vocal on these pages... I'm also no relative of Barry if that's what you were suggesting...

I keep thinking you must be Barry given your level of optimism.

Doesn't make sense that anyone would defend a crook as much as he has, that's for sure.

If you can explain what he's done to make him a crook then your words might have some weight behind them... any chance of you doing that?

If you're not up to it, any of your thumbs-uppers to you troll post care to elaborate?

Where’s the ea money pinballslave?

Lol to funny. With all the new plans I want to know where plan A (-1) went. they present game, pay for game, build game, ship game. That was at the time the honest plan. (Years ago)

I don't know exactly... lawyers fees, payment for the first 95 games plus the 1/2 million euros worth of parts, setting up the Chinese production, promotional events, licencing... and some bottles of Kahlua I guess...

I think you meant to type 40 games. The second batch was paid for again with New money. He was broke long before that.

Why does everyone leave out......they paid themselves a crap load of money, because it's the law!

See now we are getting somewhere.

I thought the money was gone before the lawyers got involved. I’d imagine there are some pretty pissed off people (I know I would be) that had 8500 stolen from them who were promised a game. You and the Guns N’ Roses guy can downvote me all you want but the fact remains people paid 8500 for a game and Dutch pinball didn’t deliver them and sold those same games again for 12,500.

I just call a spade a spade. I don't need a court document for that.

Anyway, all I will see after this is a bunch of "ignored user comment" so good day.
Maybe some of my ignored users should get in that basement and start assembling some games instead of arguing on here all day.

If we do not hear from you within a week, we shall assume that you do not want to purchase a 2nd game and have therefore defaulted to option 1 above: wait for your already paid for EA game to be made.

*******If you change your mind and find that you do want to purchase one of these 'made to sell' games after the week has expired, just drop us a mail and we will add you to the list... this is not a strict deadline*******, but we would at least like to know how many of you are interested in this option soon.

Thank you again for your patience with Dutch Pinball, and I will be in touch again soon with another update now that things are hotting up here at DP!!

Kind regards,

Barry

Dutch Pinball
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So I am not sending them another penny until they show me the Lebowski man! And even then I won't, because the EA games if they are ever produced will come with the "extras".

Actually, I meant to type 55 because 40 got sold twice... still don't know exactly where the money went though... so re-read my previous statent with 55 instead of 95... no-one has been able to say why he's a crook yet, and the original stator of that claim @tom'ass' has buried his head in the sand rather that support his claim by putting me on ignore

Thanks... the invite is mutual.

Mods please read what I actually wrote. I was very careful in not naming anyone since I know how easily pinsiders feelings get hurt. Sorry but this is uncalled for.

That's a very good point of course... there were quite a few staff on board during the design phase at least, maybe Barry/Jaap kept them on the payroll longer than they should have done...

We'll probably never get a clear answer to where the money went, but I honestly don't think it was theft... to be honest I think the hype at expo where, as Mr Heck put it, they were "lords of all creation" gave DP an over-secure feeling of invincibility... like they couldn't fail, no matter what... as a consequence they probably spent too much money on all sorts of stuff... the prototypes themselves were, I understand, very expensive to make, not to mention hauling them around the globe... then there was the massive set up cost at ARA which was supposed to be spread across at least 300 games, not 55... or 95, however you look at it... many unexpected delays with possibly a full head of staff draining the finances... Philgate, licencing issues, John Goodman callout issues, getting the music re-made... quite simply I think they underestimated the costs involved and overestimated their ability to ride through these issues..

I believe and hope that Barry has got his wake-up call now, and will proceed with extreme caution from now on...

The game itself is packed with stuff making it also too expensive to make!! I firmly believe Barry is going through everything with a fine-tooth comb this time... I know he is dedicated to seeing this through and not letting the EAs down... despite what others might think...

The only employee on payroll was Koen (the programmer) the rest did the work for a game.

Edit typo

Don't mean to correct you , but its Koen. He is amazing programmer and a nice guy.

Thank you, I agree his work on Bop 2.0 and TBL is great.
My bad, sorry Koen.

Here's a blast from the past when the game was shown and Jonathan had a nice talk with the team.
http://www.pinball-magazine.com/?p=2285