(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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#10651 5 days ago
Quoted from Rensh:

Ok
To avoid any misunderstanding: ... the EA plague ...

Sounds about right

#10652 5 days ago
Quoted from Rensh:

If you decide to wait your original EA game will have the extra’s.

That's not what the NSL says:

Quoted from Concretehardt:

All EA games sold at this 'made to sell retail price' will have some unique and special extras added to the game which will not be available on the games which are sold to the general public at any time and will not be on the original EA games.

#10653 5 days ago

It was meant that if an EA decides to take option 2 the special features and plague will be on the unit bought @ 12K5 and not on the afterwards delivered ‘original’ EA unit.

If however an EA decided to stay with ‘just’ the original purchased unit (and not buy the 12K5 unit) it will have the plague and special extra(s).

This as I just checked with Barry to make 200% sure I understood it correctly.

#10654 5 days ago

All options aren’t good enough.

There needs to be a clear way that EAs get games.
If it’s 1 of 2, 1 of 3, or 1 of 4 so be it.
Putting all of the EAs at the end of the line is not acceptable. I have new money to buy a game but will not till EAs start getting games too.

#10655 5 days ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

All options aren’t good enough.
There needs to be a clear way that EAs get games.
If it’s 1 of 2, 1 of 3, or 1 of 4 so be it.
Putting all of the EAs at the end of the line is not acceptable. I have new money to buy a game but will not till EAs start getting games too.

That would depend on this not being a scam...

#10656 5 days ago

Barry offers new games to general public.
Pinside: He should have offered them to EAs first!

Barry offers new games to EAs first.
Pinside: Barry is screwing EAs for more money!

-2
#10657 5 days ago
Quoted from GetTheJackpot:

9) How much he is paying himself

10) How often does he go to the toilet? (Will also influence how quick the games get made).
Apology, should have said rest room...

#10658 5 days ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

Barry offers new games to general public.
Pinside: He should have offered them to EAs first!
Barry offers new games to EAs first.
Pinside: Barry is screwing EAs for more money!

That’s not what I’m saying
I’m saying games that were paid for YEARS ago go out in a mix of new money.
Not all 50 new games bring in 50 x 12,500.

#10659 5 days ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

That’s not what I’m saying

I wasn't specifically talking about you, just making a joke about what will likely happen

#10660 5 days ago

What are the extras ?

Quoted from Rensh:

Ok
To avoid any misunderstanding: ALL EA’s get the extra’s.
If you go for option 2 the first game delivered at 12K5 USD will have the extra’s and the EA plague. Game 2 will be the ‘regular’ unit which is available to all non EA buyers.
If you decide to wait your original EA game will have the extra’s.

#10661 5 days ago
Quoted from fast_in_muskoka:

What are the extras ?

Chrome trim, rug and plaque I presume.

#10662 5 days ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

Putting all of the EAs at the end of the line is not acceptable.

How will giving EAs a chance to go to the front of the line be putting EAs at the end of the line???

Please, if you can, explain your logic on that one point... just to educate me... please...

-1
#10663 5 days ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

I have new money to buy a game but will not till EAs start getting games too.

Thank God not everyone thinks like that or DP would be dead in the water now and all outstanding EAs with nothing to show...

#10664 5 days ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

All options aren’t good enough.
There needs to be a clear way that EAs get games.
If it’s 1 of 2, 1 of 3, or 1 of 4 so be it.
Putting all of the EAs at the end of the line is not acceptable. I have new money to buy a game but will not till EAs start getting games too.

Right on! All it takes is one guy doing the right thing...well for now our shaming has put the EAs in the running, even if they have to pay the extra cash vs not even being considered like in the last round.

#10665 5 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

How will giving EAs a chance to go to the front of the line be putting EAs at the end of the line???
Please, if you can, explain your logic on that one point... just to educate me... please...

There is no ratio explained how these EA’s will get these games just that sometime within the 500.

So let’s say Barry uses his parts and makes 50 new games. In Barry’s mind all 50 will be sold for $12,500 of fresh new money. I’m saying since he already got paid on over 100 games. X go to new buyers and Y has to fill previous debts (EA’s).

#10666 5 days ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

There is no ratio explained how these EA’s will get these games just that sometime within the 500.
So let’s say Barry uses his parts and makes 50 new games. In Barry’s mind all 50 will be sold for $12,500 of fresh new money. I’m saying since he already got paid on over 100 games. X go to new buyers and Y has to fill previous debts (EA’s).

That doesn't explain how EAs go to the back of the line by EAs going to the front of the line... sorry...

Let me try to explain how I see it... let's say, for sake of argument, 5 games need to be sold so that DP has enough to build 1 already paid for EA game... and let's say these games get sold to non EA buyers (obviously no-one like you of course)... the 6th game then gets made for the next EA in line... I.e. he's 6th... Now, let's say those 5 games get sold to EAs instead of non EAs... in this case the next in line for his already paid for game is 6th (again, amazingly). He is therefore no further back in the line than if non EAs bought the game... but... look at option 2 a bit closer... 5 EAs were ahead of him as opposed to 5 non-EAs... overall, therefore, EAs are moving to the front of the queue, not going more to the back... please highlight where I'm going wrong in my thinking because you seemed to think that by offering the retail games to EAs is pushing EAs more to the back of the line... where is my logic failing??

#10667 5 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

please highlight where I'm going wrong in my thinking because you seemed to think that by offering the retail games to EAs is pushing EAs more to the back of the line... where is my logic failing??

Because in reality 500 games need to be built before taking care of the EAs and the odds for this to happen tend to grow thinner. The EAs are not a debt they are people who paid for their games.

#10668 5 days ago

I think the bigger concern, if this pipe dream actually happens, isn't that it will be 500 games in before all EAs are made whole, but....

The belief that ~400 people out there, are willing to drop 12.5k on the game. Barry really needs to find a way to put the price between the original EA number (7500?) and the 12.5k that was used to, in theory, rejuvenate DP. I'm not sure there are 400 buyers out there, at 12.5k.

#10669 5 days ago
Quoted from adol75:

Because in reality 500 games need to be built before taking care of the EAs and the odds for this to happen tend to grow thinner. The EAs are not a debt they are people who paid for their games.

So you think this explains why by not offering the games to EAs it will make EAs go closer to the front of the queue somehow?? Are we even talking about the same thing?? You should let Pdxmonkey answer for himself by the way rather than interject with some smoke screen that totally deflects the point in hand... imho...

#10670 5 days ago

If Barry truly has an investor now. Why not make all the EA games now and make them whole. Prove to the pinball community that he is a man of his word, Then start selling more games at a profit. Or is the investor not real?

#10671 5 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

So you think this explains why by not offering the games to EAs it will make EAs go closer to the front of the queue somehow?? Are we even talking about the same thing?? You should let pdxmonkey answer for himself by the way rather than interject with some smoke screen that totally deflects the point in hand... imho...

It goes back to my previous post here. There were some investors offers, with the proper funds, a capable team and the right infrastructure that planned on honoring the EAs games prior to selling new games.

Barry rejected them while saying his main priority is to honor his commitment to the EAs which now sound like total bs. And he failed once already with a ton of money, the parts, the suppliers, I still hope he succeeds but lets face it, the odds are lower than ever.

#10672 5 days ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

If Barry truly has an investor now. Why not make all the EA games now and make them whole.

Probably because the invesror doesnt have enogh money... that's my wild stab in the dark...

#10673 5 days ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

If Barry truly has an investor now. Why not make all the EA games now and make them whole. Prove to the pinball community that he is a man of his word, Then start selling more games at a profit. Or is the investor not real?

Very much doubt an investor would stump up €1M & 6 months or whatever to make 150 games that won’t bring in any money..without seeing some €.

EA games will be mage along side at a ratio yet to be told.

Jack Did it with WOZ & Hobbit... it’s not new!

#10674 5 days ago
Quoted from adol75:

Barry rejected them while saying his main priority is to honor his commitment to the EAs which now sound like total bs. And he failed once already with a ton of money, the parts, the suppliers, I still hope he succeeds but lets face it, the odds are lower than ever.

That may be so, but you were answering a question I asked someone else with an answer that doesn't answer the question...

#10675 5 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Non EA buyers if that made to sell game don't get that extra but still pay $12.5k... explain how that is screwing EAs? It's giving them first shot at the new games... something they were criticised for NOT doing when they sold the 40 trapped at ARA games...

You're getting a chance to get firt in a line (where there likely won't be a line)... and pay full price (for a game you bought at a discount previously).. for some shallow promises of 'exclusives' and a FUTURE (that will never get to) point of cash back (from a company that isn't liquid)

Yeah, what could possibly go wrong? Who wouldn't want to race to the end of the week to agree to spend another $12.5k!!! /s

#10676 5 days ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

Barry offers new games to general public.
Pinside: He should have offered them to EAs first!
Barry offers new games to EAs first.
Pinside: Barry is screwing EAs for more money!

Missing from this... the difference between 'games that exist' and 'games I promise to build... if you just sign up now and agree to put your IOU at the end of the line!!'

#10677 5 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

That doesn't explain how EAs go to the back of the line by EAs going to the front of the line... sorry...

Because the scheme is basically... "Give me money now, and lets discuss that IOU to you later... much later... like, I'm not going to be here any more later...'

When you owe someone money.. you don't say "hey, if you just give me another $100, I'll have that money AND the money I owe you next week"

Well, you can.. but anyone with half an ounce of common sense recognizes what is going on.

Barry is trying to drum up sales from his most yearning buyers.. and by getting them a game earlier, he cuts down on their noise level.

#10678 5 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

for some shallow promises of 'exclusives' and a FUTURE (that will never get to)

If you really don't think there will be a future, all the more incentive to buy a game now which will end up being rare and desireable and possibly even worth the $21k total outlay to an EA... or not buy a game with very limited run and not get the game you paid for and be down $8.5k... $21k for a game worth $21k or $8.5k for nothing... these are the options if DP really have no future... at least the choice is now exvlusively for EAs to make rather than non-EAs profiting from the EAs loss if it comes to a no future scenario...

#10679 5 days ago

"Yeah, what could possibly go wrong? Who wouldn't want to race to the end of the week to agree to spend another $12.5k!!! /s"

^^ THIS ! ^^

#10680 5 days ago
Quoted from fast_in_muskoka:

Who wouldn't want to race to the end of the week to agree to spend another $12.5k!!! /s"

The answer is: those that truly believe DP will survive and therefore they'll get their EA game with no further outlay... only the true believers would see this opportunity as a waste of money...

#10681 5 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

The answer is: those that truly believe DP will survive and therefore they'll get their EA game with no further outlay... only the true believers would see this opportunity as a waste of money...

The entire thing shows he's chasing pennies -- which means no sugar daddy in the wings.

#10682 5 days ago

If EAs get first dibs on the next 40 games and if TBL pin is worth 21k total outlay to them by all means, it's your money. I think it's feasible even a skeleton crew could get them done in 15 months.

Just assume you'll never see that 'back game'.

#10683 5 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

Does anyone really believe this is a $12,500 game? Take away the scarcity and what's it worth?

More to me than a $12,500 JJP CE

#10684 5 days ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

NSL just hit the wire..

LOL.

Got to give him credit - he sure is persistent. Needs to build more games to sell twice.

#10685 5 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

That may be so, but you were answering a question I asked someone else with an answer that doesn't answer the question...

Oh my bad, I thought this was a public thread...

#10686 5 days ago
Quoted from adol75:

Because in reality 500 games need to be built before taking care of the EAs and the odds for this to happen tend to grow thinner.

In the podcast Barry said DP would need to ship 400-500 total games to cover the EAs (so 265-365 games to new buyers at $12.5k + 135 games to the EAs interspersed throughout). Still a tall order, of course.

#10687 5 days ago

The demand for this game is there.

As an EA I quickly emailed Barry willing to spend another $12,500 to get a game.

My game build is 158. Still outside the 25 to 40 games built from parts. EA must been all over this proposal! Will I ever see my game? Who knows, but if the funds keep coming in, it is possible.

All I can do is to try and be positive.

#10688 5 days ago
Quoted from adol75:

Oh my bad, I thought this was a public thread...

It's ok... I also thought it was a public thread... pointing out that you answered a question addressed to someone else with an answer that didn't answer the question does not imply that this is not a public thread... does it? Very odd logic around here at times...

#10689 5 days ago

To all those banging on the 'we want to know the details of the schedule' drum, imagine this...

Barry, with his knowledge of what parts he has and how much each part will cost when that part runs out based on ordering a specific quantity, can calculate the number of games needed to make the first EA game, then how many to make the 2nd, then the 3rd, etc etc... he could produce a chart with a curve of EA games produced vs time... spending hours trying to factor in all the ins and outs... even calculating an accuracy tolerance based on uncertainties of the cost of parts he hasn't got quotes for yet because he already has 100 of that specific part, he could go out to vendors and get quotes for all those parts now and then create a more accurate chart...

a) the chart would very likely be inaccurate due to a ridiculous number of unforseen factors, like parts arriving off spec etc etc, so that at week 32, if he hasn't bashed out the predicted 37 EA games he going to be inundated with a string of abusive mail's calling him a liar again, and:

b) wouldn't that time be better spent building games and simply getting on with what's important to get this fixed!?!

Wasting all that time is counterproductive and reducing the chance of him pulling this off with a benefit that is, quite frankly, worthless.

Build the games Barry!

As an EA I'd prefer him to focus his time and energy on this rather than showing the world some half baked schedule... I'm guessing people wanting to see this aren't EAs and therefore don't care if he wastes his time on these things..

-1
#10690 4 days ago

To all those that want the details...imagine you were going to implement a new system at work or no, build a new house or no, simply add a screen porch to your house. Now you could sit down and figure out how much lumber you needed and the lengths of that lumber. Same with the roofing, screen, flooring, even the smaller stuff like joist hangers, paint and nails. You could look at all the stuff you already have, maybe paint, nails, some wood and then you could figure out what all you need that you don't have on hand. You could then determine how much it will cost and you could order what you need, based on all those calculations. You could then go to the big box store and get all the stuff you need. However, you'd no doubt discover that same of the boards are too warped to use, some might get broken in transport. No doubt, you'd have unanticipated waste and there would be some things you just forgot about or didn't anticipate. You'd probably end up having to go back to the store, maybe multiple times.

Or you could just start building stuff and not waste all that time planning.

#10691 4 days ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

To all those that want the details...imagine you were going to implement a new system at work or no, build a new house or no, simply add a screen porch to your house. Now you could sit down and figure out how much lumber you needed and the lengths of that lumber. Same with the roofing, screen, flooring, even the smaller stuff like joist hangers, paint and nails. You could look at all the stuff you already have, maybe paint, nails, some wood and then you could figure out what all you need that you don't have on hand. You could then determine how much it will cost and you could order what you need, based on all those calculations. You could then go to the big box store and get all the stuff you need. However, you'd no doubt discover that same of the boards are too warped to use, some might get broken in transport. No doubt, you'd have unanticipated waste and there would be some things you just forgot about or didn't anticipate. You'd probably end up having to go back to the store, maybe multiple times.
Or you could just start building stuff and not waste all that time planning.

Wait, what? You lost me here!

#10692 4 days ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Wait, what? You lost me here!

I think he was having a play on words with Barry’s (I mean pinballslaves) post. On the plus side at least the silence from DP has partially broken and some form of updates are happening again. Not sure how but I do Hope some of these games can roll again. Just not on the Shabbos!

#10693 4 days ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

If Barry truly has an investor now. Why not make all the EA games now and make them whole. Prove to the pinball community that he is a man of his word, Then start selling more games at a profit. Or is the investor not real?

I can't see how anyone would invest in DP. Why would an investor put their money in a company that only has really one promising design with a license soon to expire, clear cost overrun issues on the product they produce, and fresh off a long legal dispute. It just makes no sense.

20
#10694 4 days ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

To all those that want the details...imagine you were going to implement a new system at work or no, build a new house or no, simply add a screen porch to your house. Now you could sit down and figure out how much lumber you needed and the lengths of that lumber. Same with the roofing, screen, flooring, even the smaller stuff like joist hangers, paint and nails. You could look at all the stuff you already have, maybe paint, nails, some wood and then you could figure out what all you need that you don't have on hand. You could then determine how much it will cost and you could order what you need, based on all those calculations. You could then go to the big box store and get all the stuff you need. However, you'd no doubt discover that same of the boards are too warped to use, some might get broken in transport. No doubt, you'd have unanticipated waste and there would be some things you just forgot about or didn't anticipate. You'd probably end up having to go back to the store, maybe multiple times.
Or you could just start building stuff and not waste all that time planning.

Imagine paying for the house and they build your neighbors instead.

#10695 4 days ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

Imagine paying for the house and they build your neighbors instead.

And then paying even more a second time in the hopes that you get both houses, meanwhile the realtor is just collecting commissions on every sale and calling it a good deed.

#10696 4 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Barry’s (I mean pinballslaves) post.

Just for the record, I am not Barry.

#10697 4 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Wasting all that time is counterproductive and reducing the chance of him pulling this off with a benefit that is, quite frankly, worthless.

So you're saying planning and projecting is worthless... to the guy who failed previously because they failed to properly plan their schedule and expenses...

Fascinating.

What you describe is what grown ups do to try to project and validate their business plan so they know if their idea is even viable. Saying "just build them and don't worry about the future..." is the kind of amateur stuff that got them into this situation to start with and is what fuels the problem of making promises they never have a shot at actually delivering on.

#10698 4 days ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

To all those that want the details...imagine you were going to implement a new system at work or no, build a new house or no, simply add a screen porch to your house. Now you could sit down and figure out how much lumber you needed and the lengths of that lumber. Same with the roofing, screen, flooring, even the smaller stuff like joist hangers, paint and nails. You could look at all the stuff you already have, maybe paint, nails, some wood and then you could figure out what all you need that you don't have on hand. You could then determine how much it will cost and you could order what you need, based on all those calculations. You could then go to the big box store and get all the stuff you need. However, you'd no doubt discover that same of the boards are too warped to use, some might get broken in transport. No doubt, you'd have unanticipated waste and there would be some things you just forgot about or didn't anticipate. You'd probably end up having to go back to the store, maybe multiple times.
Or you could just start building stuff and not waste all that time planning.

Comical... what you describe as the 'useless' case is actually the way successful projects work! You build in overages to account for waste, defects, etc. And then advocate 'just go and figure it out as you go..' as the better way.. LOL. Like how many trips to the store do you plan on making? Or ignore every one of those trips is extra overhead that eats into margin and drives up cost.

To sum up your suggestion.. its like hiring a contractor to build your deck, and you ask him "how long will it take, and how much will it cost?" -- And your builder would say "I have no idea... I'll just let you know when I'm done!"

That's not how you run a business that needs to actually make money to survive.

#10699 4 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

To all those banging on the 'we want to know the details of the schedule' drum, imagine this...
Barry, with his knowledge of what parts he has and how much each part will cost when that part runs out based on ordering a specific quantity, can calculate the number of games needed to make the first EA game, then how many to make the 2nd, then the 3rd, etc etc... he could produce a chart with a curve of EA games produced vs time... spending hours trying to factor in all the ins and outs... even calculating an accuracy tolerance based on uncertainties of the cost of parts he hasn't got quotes for yet because he already has 100 of that specific part, he could go out to vendors and get quotes for all those parts now and then create a more accurate chart...
a) the chart would very likely be inaccurate due to a ridiculous number of unforseen factors, like parts arriving off spec etc etc, so that at week 32, if he hasn't bashed out the predicted 37 EA games he going to be inundated with a string of abusive mail's calling him a liar again, and:
b) wouldn't that time be better spent building games and simply getting on with what's important to get this fixed!?!
Wasting all that time is counterproductive and reducing the chance of him pulling this off with a benefit that is, quite frankly, worthless.
Build the games Barry!
As an EA I'd prefer him to focus his time and energy on this rather than showing the world some half baked schedule... I'm guessing people wanting to see this aren't EAs and therefore don't care if he wastes his time on these things..

The problem seems to be that DP just charges forward without trying to account for all these unforseen factors. No, building a pinball machine will ever go completely to plan, but I would think it would be prudent to plan all these factors out before beginning production. Otherwise it just seems like a leap of blind faith. That will lead to the unforseen factors ending production and no hope for anyone.

#10700 4 days ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Wait, what? You lost me here!

I think he's saying just build the games without planning. Doesn't seem like a successful strategy to building a pinball.

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