Pinside post of the year.

Lol.....

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You need to raise your standards....

tktlwyr said it best.

Pre-order is a dangerous gamble. I've felt like twice I was going to lose out on that gamble as well, first with ECLEWOZ then with the Hobbit. I definitely can understand getting caught up in the hype, but you have to understand the risks. Which is why I stay out of the casino , and furthermore out of the pinball pre-order game. I work too hard for my money.

And although my experience with Melissa and CoinTaker is fairly minimal , every transaction has been completed with ease and efficiency, and when we met at Pinburg a few years back they were genuinely nice people, friendly, easy to talk to, and I can understand why they are one of the biggest and best around.

Browsing through the last few pages of this thread, I feel like the angst directed towards them is not justified. Business is business, and I feel like with all CT has done for this hobby that there wasn't any malicious intent on their part, they were simply trying to revive a game that otherwise would just sit there indefinitely. Perhaps more will made, probably not.

The well thought out and educated response from tktlwyr speaks for itself...try reading it again with an unbiased opinion.

Just to clarify why Kvan posted this. He's was a friend at one point but has turned into a sour little man that been pissed at me ever since I posted his, at the time, for sale LOTR in the "No Rainbow Puke Club" thread:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/no-rainbow-puke-club-post-pics-of-worst-color-gi-fails#post-4051332

In short, I thought the LED job on his LOTR looked like a Christmas tree.

He'a also jealous because he doesn't have a backglass that has a picture of him on it.

Kvan, if you have an issue with me, be a man and take it private to discuss your problem with me instead of being a keyboard warrior. It just continues to show how shallow you truly are.

Dave man, come on, we're just busting balls bro...don't get serious

Btw, for future reference, as a you said while being a friend and slamming someone's game while it's on sale is not exactly a good form.

PS: Also I like my hair....so no jealousy here

You are 100% right!!!
Melissa wears her heart on her sleeve... she has been a Pioneer for the industry.

Ok ok, let’s think about this BS for a moment! There are dozens of distributors that would haven taken and sold those games , but from what I’ve been told and not by Melissa is Cointaker had an investment in DP and lost a lot of money
In doing so ? So if they made any money at all which is well deserved good for them ! If they broke even that means they lost money.

We had no investment in DP. The only funds they have of ours is our EA money which is not chump change but if you look at it that way all EA’s are investors

Guys it's very very simple. Cointaker did what they thought was best for the potential of the survival of DP. Think about how heighway went down, no one won. Even if there is the slightest of heart beats with Dutch, we can say as a community we tried our best to recesitate the company. Doing nothing would have net gained what? I wish there was a more clear way to have done this but I know Melissa and Chris personally, I have never gathered any bad intentions or ill will in them. No one is perfect but they absolutely go above and beyond for their customers. I've been operating games for 17 years and they are always on the side of their customers. Period.

Maybe I worded that wrong my bad,

If you invest money in anything that’s not guaranteed? Win lose or draw you have nobody to blame but yourself!

I know the truth sucks but come on man
Get over it

This was not an investment, it was a pre order...

Or a pre-order investment...

What about the first 55 who seemed to make money on this? I've seen them sell for $18K+.

Just sayin'. Most lost out, but I haven't heard the first 55 complaining.

That is not fair to say. Not every EA flipped their game. There are a handful who are/were helpful with maintanance tips and gameplay feedback (like Tom in SD and Gene in SF). I know Tuna would have been one had he actually gotten his game.

Who really cares what the first 40 did anyways? First come, first served. No?

"Fuckin' A man!"

If only. Thanks Dude.

NSL just hit the wire..

“Dude, er... today's already the 10th…

A lot has happened in the last few weeks within Dutch Pinball and the progress of The Big Lebowski! Things are moving forwards at a rate reminiscent of the early days when the initial production of the game was in progress, and I am very optimistic for the future!

We have been on a rough and uncertain journey in the manufacture of this game, and I take it as my personal challenge to lead us all through these troubled waters to a beautiful island where we can all get off this ship and enjoy playing TBL! I understand that you have had to endure long periods of uncertainty, and you have my utmost respect for bearing with us for so long... I cannot thank you enough for your patience with Dutch Pinball, and I sincerely hope and believe that this patience will be well rewarded!

Even though there is light at the end of the tunnel, there is still quite a challenge ahead before we will be able to deliver your game, the starting point of which is that Dutch Pinball needs to set up manufacturing again. This means that with the parts we have acquired from ARA recently we will first need to make games that we will have to sell that will give us the push we need to go into production. Furthermore, to keep production going, even when we are at the point where we can start to ship the games to you Early Achievers, we will still need to make games for selling in parallel with the EA games being made to keep the production going, or the finances will dry up and the lights will go out.

Regarding these 'made to sell' games, we have an option. We can offer them to the general public, which is what time restraints forced us to do with the already manufactured games that were sitting captive at ARA, or – because I received a lot of requests about this – we can offer them to you, the Early Achievers, before we offer them to the public.

This leads me to the main point of this update, and that is to give you a choice, which I am going to have to ask you to make, the choice being:

1. You continue to wait patiently for your game to be made, which will proceed as described above.

2. You decide that you would like to be one of the people buying the 'made to sell' games that will help us get back on our feet.

More details on option 2:

· The game you buy would cost $12,500.00 for US buyers, and € 11,995.00 for European buyers plus shipping (the additional shipping cost is applicable for European buyers, US buyer's cost includes shipping).
· You would pay nothing until your game is built, tested and ready to ship, or picked up.
· You will get your EA plaque with serial number attached to the game.
· You will get the rug and chrome trim.
· All EA games sold at this 'made to sell retail price' will have some unique and special extras added to the game which will not be available on the games which are sold to the general public at any time and will not be on the original EA games.
· When the time comes for your actual already paid for game to be made, you will be informed that this game is ready to ship, at which point you have the option of having this game shipped to you at no extra cost (apart from shipping) or receiving a full refund on this game of the amount you already paid as an Early Achiever. ​This game, being an original EA game, will also come which chrome trim and a rug but not with the special extras that are with the higher 'retail' priced games.
Ideally we would like you to decide within one week if you would like accept option 2, and if you do, all we ask is that you reply to this update with your confirmation that you would like to buy a 'made to sell' game, confirming your serial number, and you will be added to the list.

We will then contact you in order of the emails I receive from people who want to take up this offer to tell you your game is ready. If, at this point, you change your mind about buying the game, you just need to reply stating that this is your final decision and we will then offer this game to the next in line.

When the finances allow us to build the original game you paid for, regardless of whether you bought a new game or not, you will be contacted to say this this game is ready to ship. Obviously, if you are one of the people who bought a game already with your plaque, this 2nd game will not come with your plaque because you will already have it but, since it is effectively your already paid for EA game, it will, as stated above, come with the chrome trim and rug but it will not come with the bonus extras.

If we do not hear from you within a week, we shall assume that you do not want to purchase a 2nd game and have therefore defaulted to option 1 above: wait for your already paid for EA game to be made.

If you change your mind and find that you do want to purchase one of these 'made to sell' games after the week has expired, just drop us a mail and we will add you to the list... this is not a strict deadline, but we would at least like to know how many of you are interested in this option soon.

Thank you again for your patience with Dutch Pinball, and I will be in touch again soon with another update now that things are hotting up here at DP!!

Kind regards,

Barry

Dutch Pinball”

“This means that with the parts we have acquired from ARA recently we will first need to make games that we will have to sell that will give us the push we need to go into production”

Aka... I need to raise money with what I have before getting more capacity and capital to buy parts for other games. This is totally a fund raising effort that will likely stall out.

The whole “refund on your ea game” part is completely confusing.

It was pretty clear that he needs to sell games in order to get production going, as he did with the 40 games trapped at ARA... would you feel less screwed if he sold those to non EAs like he did those 40 games? He's simply giving EAs first pass at those games... if you don't buy one, nothing changes, you just wait for your EA game as you would if he sold those games to someone else...

That's the easy part... if you buy one of the 'go fund me' games, then when your actual EA game is made (less the plaque of course) then you have a choice: take the game or get your original money back...

I look at it as ... if you agree to purchase the "seller" games at the 12.5 price you're still in line for a EA game. When that EA game comes to fruition you have the choice of still buying it at the original price OR you can request whatever amount of money you had into it refunded.

I would add 'already paid' to avoid confusion

I have a bad feeling that Barry is going to try and pump out 30 or 40 games (whatever he has the parts for) get paid for them and then.. game over

Maybe you've been spending too much time on Pinside

If that were the case, I would imagine, it would've been easier for him to just walk away from it all together.

ok so I am going to just stop posting

I think what Concretehardt is saying is that doing what he fears Barry might be doing will give him more $$$ than packing up earlier...

NSL should include:

1) cash on hand
2) # of games we have COMPLETE parts for
3) # of new games we have to sell before we can start fulfilling original orders.
4) total # of unfulfilled EA orders
5) how on earth we are going to build 300-500 games in 15 months with only a few people.
6) how we plan to account for the much higher cost of parts when we no longer buy them in bulk
7) does the new profit margin include $ for re-licensing the game when we don't finish in time?
8 ) do we have a sugar daddy as it's our only hope?

It contains none of that because the true answer to any of those would reveal the project to be hopeless.

Instead the NSL reads like a scam:

"EA's can have first dibs at giving us more money and we'll turn these parts into TRUE EA EDITIONS! (fear of missing out) And you'll still get the TBL we owe you down the road, a 12.5k value you only paid 8k for! (greed scam)"

There is no down the road. You will never see that extra game. They will never sell enough, nor be able to build enough to make the original EA's whole.

Yet another “F&@$ you” to EA’s. Buy at the higher price after 5 years!! Really. Implying that if you don’t your original game will be available at some time in the never to come future. How insulting.

How about, if you buy a second game we will ship your original at the same time. This way I can sell it and be whole!

It’s just hard not to be skeptical after so many broken promises from Barry/DP over the years. The old saying “Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior” is a saying for a reason.. I hope Barry proves me wrong and makes all the EA’s whole!

They only don't get a plaque if they opt to buy one of the 'made to raise money' games because the plaque will be attached to that game... you can't expect to get 2 games with 2 if the same serial number plaque can you??? If you DON'T opt to buy a 2nd game, you obviously get your plaque on your EA game when it's made... EAs who do decide to fork out a load more dosh for a 2nd game get a bit extra... afterall, they're paying another $4k over what their original EA game cost... so a little extra for that extra 4k is good, no? Non EA buyers if that made to sell game don't get that extra but still pay $12.5k... explain how that is screwing EAs? It's giving them first shot at the new games... something they were criticised for NOT doing when they sold the 40 trapped at ARA games...

That's because your original EA game, which comes with free chrome trim and free rug, cost $4k less than the 12.5k game, no? You give something extra, and some people see it as taking something away... come on man, surely you can't see it as losing something... EAs who buy in again are simply being rewarded over other people...

I don't think it's compulsory to buy at the higher price... it's an option... I guess you'd be happier if they sold them like they did the first 40...? In which case, just ignore the NSN... pretend they're going to non EAs...

If Barry is truly trying to help the EAs and wants them to get their games he shouldn't ask EAs for more money.
He should offer new TBLs for 12,500 to non-EAs only and every 2 new money TBLs he makes he should make the third for the next EA in line.
This should be communicated with every EA and a plan should be in place for how this will be accomplished.
He shouldn't say he is making XXX number of TBLs as he is a terrible planner. Make as many as you can along the way until the license expires and at least make some people whole.

EAs shouldn't have to wait until the end of time to get their game and it would be a sign of good faith on his part that he is making games and fulfilling his obligations. i think the non-EAs might spring for the game if they see these assurances.

Pinball slave - I have a hard time understanding your position. I am curious if you are an EA? I ask because I think most EA’s, such as myself, do not feel this “offer” which implies being shoved to the back of the line for the original game, does not acknowledge their investment and patience.
I expressed my feelings to Barry on this as I imagine others have. Perhaps, as I suggested to Barry, if the offer was order at 12.5 and receive both games - then both parties could get whole!

Interesting NSNL. Still don’t think Barry has a complete list of EA’s and contact info yet. Otherwise, why send a NSNL? Any serious proposal would have started there with EA’s and before formulating and announcing a program.

Looking at TBL from the future -

built:

55 games delivered @ $8k to $9k

45 games delivering now @ $12.5k

40 games future delivery @ $12.5k

140 games delivered

paid:

180 games @ $8.5k

85 games @ $12.5k

$2.6M collected

$2.6M / 140 games is $18,500 or average cost per game built.

However, this leaves a debt of 125 games at a cost to build of $18.5k. Assuming remaining games cost more to build, maybe $20k each, means no more games will be manufactured after the final parts games are assembled from existing inventory.

If you are an EA and still want the game, buy one from DP at $12.5k, because otherwise you won’t see one. You’ll still be out the original $8.5k, but will have the game. On the other hand, do you want one if it costs $12.5k or are you over TBL? Then don’t buy, but this is your last chance to buy nib.

Luvthatapex2- your plan works too. I agree that he owes EA’s a concrete and reasonable plan. You have to wonder who he bounces his ideas off??!

That's totally mad... you're saying EAs should not be allowed to buy these new games!!?? And that's somehow helping EAs? Seriously...??

I am an EA and I'm glad I've been offered to buy a game that needs to be sold to raise capitol. I have accepted the offer.

Does anyone really believe this is a $12,500 game? Take away the scarcity and what's it worth?

I wonder if one of the 'special extras' is a copy of the Stern coffee table book or R2D2 topper?

What are the extra doodads that we EAs get if we decide to fork over the extra 4K? Perhaps its the other kind of Dutch "trim" that he is referencing?

I have yet to see any pinball machine that is worth $12500 outside of scarcity/demand related factors.

9) How much he is paying himself

You’ll never get an answer to this. Why let details or facts or information come into play now?

The fear of missing out (as referenced by Ben earlier) has almost 100% driven this entire catastrophe. I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

EAs pretty much have to decide if this game is worth $20k to them. That is what they will have paid. That second game isn’t likely ever going to arrive.

Down-votes???

How can you possibly down-vote this plea from Ben H for TOTAL and complete transparency?

Ok

To avoid any misunderstanding: ALL EA’s get the extra’s.

If you go for option 2 the first game delivered at 12K5 USD will have the extra’s and the EA plague. Game 2 will be the ‘regular’ unit which is available to all non EA buyers.

If you decide to wait your original EA game will have the extra’s.