(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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10
#10601 43 days ago
Quoted from tktlwyr:

I thought someone once said that "making pinball is hard"? I've always considered this every time the next great boutique company announces their plans. Someone is going to make Predator in his basement, send money. I'll pass. JPOP is making games, send money. I'll pass. Alien pinball is being made, send money. I'll pass. This brings us to Mr. Lebowski and guess what? I passed. I haven't lost one preorder dollar because I work hard for my money and I'm not going to lose it to vaporware by financing someone with no experience manufacturing who wants to make a pinball machine. With the various issues that the established manufacturers experience, why would you send money to anyone who doesn't have the experience? You know what someone else once said? "A fool and his money are soon parted."
That being said, some of you tools bring CoinTaker into this? CoinTaker has been nothing short of a stellar vendor/distributor who continues to innovate and provide reliably to this community year after year. Melissa and Chris have always had their clients' backs and were smart enough to hold the customers monies in escrow until their customers' games were ready. Yeah, let's pile on one of the most respected vendors/distributors in the hobby because some people sent Dutch Pinball their money directly (wow, this complicates matters...sending money internationally and then attempting to sue a foreign entity, doesn't it?) and Dutch Pinball didn't deliver. I guess that's Coin Taker's fault, too? If someone had to have the latest, greatest boutique game and didn't think through where they were sending thousands of dollars, that's NOT CoinTaker's fault. It sucks people didn't get their games but they also were extremely careless with their money because they were blinded by their obsession with this hobby. They need to look in the mirror and the rest of you SJWs need to stop pointing the finger at CoinTaker.
These games were going to be sold regardless to satisfy DP's debt with ARA and guess what? Pinball collectors were going to buy them and some would get flipped for a profit. That's the way the world works. It's not ARA or CoinTaker's responsibility to make EAs whole. It's also not the responsibility of those collectors who ultimately took delivery of these games. That responsibility solely lies on DP. That's where the finger needs to be pointed not at the distributor who delivered games for their customers.

Pinside post of the year.

#10602 43 days ago

Lol.....

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#10603 43 days ago
Quoted from estrader:

Pinside post of the year.

You need to raise your standards....

#10604 43 days ago

tktlwyr said it best.

Pre-order is a dangerous gamble. I've felt like twice I was going to lose out on that gamble as well, first with ECLEWOZ then with the Hobbit. I definitely can understand getting caught up in the hype, but you have to understand the risks. Which is why I stay out of the casino , and furthermore out of the pinball pre-order game. I work too hard for my money.

And although my experience with Melissa and CoinTaker is fairly minimal , every transaction has been completed with ease and efficiency, and when we met at Pinburg a few years back they were genuinely nice people, friendly, easy to talk to, and I can understand why they are one of the biggest and best around.

Browsing through the last few pages of this thread, I feel like the angst directed towards them is not justified. Business is business, and I feel like with all CT has done for this hobby that there wasn't any malicious intent on their part, they were simply trying to revive a game that otherwise would just sit there indefinitely. Perhaps more will made, probably not.

#10605 43 days ago
Quoted from kvan99:

You need to raise your standards....

The well thought out and educated response from tktlwyr speaks for itself...try reading it again with an unbiased opinion.

-2
#10606 43 days ago
Quoted from kvan99:

You need to raise your standards....

Just to clarify why Kvan posted this. He's was a friend at one point but has turned into a sour little man that been pissed at me ever since I posted his, at the time, for sale LOTR in the "No Rainbow Puke Club" thread:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/no-rainbow-puke-club-post-pics-of-worst-color-gi-fails#post-4051332

In short, I thought the LED job on his LOTR looked like a Christmas tree.

Quoted from kvan99:

Lol.....[quoted image]

He'a also jealous because he doesn't have a backglass that has a picture of him on it.

Kvan, if you have an issue with me, be a man and take it private to discuss your problem with me instead of being a keyboard warrior. It just continues to show how shallow you truly are.

#10607 43 days ago
Quoted from tktlwyr:

Just to clarify why Kvan posted this. He's was a friend at one point but has turned into a sour little man that been pissed at me ever since I posted his, at the time, for sale LOTR in the "No Rainbow Puke Club" thread:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/no-rainbow-puke-club-post-pics-of-worst-color-gi-fails#post-4051332
In short, I thought the LED job on his LOTR looked like a Christmas tree.

He'a also jealous because he doesn't have a backglass that has a picture of him on it.
Kvan, if you have an issue with me, be a man and take it private to discuss your problem with me instead of being a keyboard warrior. It just continues to show how shallow you truly are.

Dave man, come on, we're just busting balls bro...don't get serious

Btw, for future reference, as a you said while being a friend and slamming someone's game while it's on sale is not exactly a good form.

PS: Also I like my hair....so no jealousy here

#10608 43 days ago
Quoted from ASOA:

Melissa CoinTaker is one of the most professional honest and hard working people in the amusement industry. Melissa has been in the industry helping people for many years. She has had to deal with so much pain and anguish trying to bring the community games they truly want. I think she is an amazing distributor and I'm proud to call her a good personal friend.
Jonathan Demare
Amusement Services of America

You are 100% right!!!
Melissa wears her heart on her sleeve... she has been a Pioneer for the industry.

#10609 43 days ago

Ok ok, let’s think about this BS for a moment! There are dozens of distributors that would haven taken and sold those games , but from what I’ve been told and not by Melissa is Cointaker had an investment in DP and lost a lot of money
In doing so ? So if they made any money at all which is well deserved good for them ! If they broke even that means they lost money.

#10610 43 days ago

We had no investment in DP. The only funds they have of ours is our EA money which is not chump change but if you look at it that way all EA’s are investors

#10611 43 days ago

Guys it's very very simple. Cointaker did what they thought was best for the potential of the survival of DP. Think about how heighway went down, no one won. Even if there is the slightest of heart beats with Dutch, we can say as a community we tried our best to recesitate the company. Doing nothing would have net gained what? I wish there was a more clear way to have done this but I know Melissa and Chris personally, I have never gathered any bad intentions or ill will in them. No one is perfect but they absolutely go above and beyond for their customers. I've been operating games for 17 years and they are always on the side of their customers. Period.

#10612 43 days ago

Maybe I worded that wrong my bad,

If you invest money in anything that’s not guaranteed? Win lose or draw you have nobody to blame but yourself!

I know the truth sucks but come on man
Get over it

#10613 43 days ago
Quoted from whitey:

Maybe I worded that wrong my bad,
If you invest money in anything that’s not guaranteed? Win lose or draw you have nobody to blame but yourself!
I know the truth sucks but come on man
Get over it

This was not an investment, it was a pre order...

#10614 43 days ago
Quoted from adol75:

This was not an investment, it was a pre order...

Or a pre-order investment...

#10615 43 days ago
Quoted from adol75:

This was not an investment, it was a pre order...

What about the first 55 who seemed to make money on this? I've seen them sell for $18K+.

Just sayin'. Most lost out, but I haven't heard the first 55 complaining.

#10616 42 days ago
Quoted from Pinball-Wiz:

What about the first 55 who seemed to make money on this? I've seen them sell for $18K+.
Just sayin'. Most lost out, but I haven't heard the first 55 complaining.

That is not fair to say. Not every EA flipped their game. There are a handful who are/were helpful with maintanance tips and gameplay feedback (like Tom in SD and Gene in SF). I know Tuna would have been one had he actually gotten his game.

Who really cares what the first 40 did anyways? First come, first served. No?

#10617 42 days ago
Quoted from highdef:

... There are a handful who are/were helpful with maintanance tips and gameplay feedback (like Tom in SD and Gene in SF). I know Tuna would have been one had he actually gotten his game. ...

"Fuckin' A man!"

If only. Thanks Dude.

#10618 39 days ago

NSL just hit the wire..

“Dude, er... today's already the 10th…

A lot has happened in the last few weeks within Dutch Pinball and the progress of The Big Lebowski! Things are moving forwards at a rate reminiscent of the early days when the initial production of the game was in progress, and I am very optimistic for the future!

We have been on a rough and uncertain journey in the manufacture of this game, and I take it as my personal challenge to lead us all through these troubled waters to a beautiful island where we can all get off this ship and enjoy playing TBL! I understand that you have had to endure long periods of uncertainty, and you have my utmost respect for bearing with us for so long... I cannot thank you enough for your patience with Dutch Pinball, and I sincerely hope and believe that this patience will be well rewarded!

Even though there is light at the end of the tunnel, there is still quite a challenge ahead before we will be able to deliver your game, the starting point of which is that Dutch Pinball needs to set up manufacturing again. This means that with the parts we have acquired from ARA recently we will first need to make games that we will have to sell that will give us the push we need to go into production. Furthermore, to keep production going, even when we are at the point where we can start to ship the games to you Early Achievers, we will still need to make games for selling in parallel with the EA games being made to keep the production going, or the finances will dry up and the lights will go out.

Regarding these 'made to sell' games, we have an option. We can offer them to the general public, which is what time restraints forced us to do with the already manufactured games that were sitting captive at ARA, or – because I received a lot of requests about this – we can offer them to you, the Early Achievers, before we offer them to the public.

This leads me to the main point of this update, and that is to give you a choice, which I am going to have to ask you to make, the choice being:

1. You continue to wait patiently for your game to be made, which will proceed as described above.

2. You decide that you would like to be one of the people buying the 'made to sell' games that will help us get back on our feet.

More details on option 2:

· The game you buy would cost $12,500.00 for US buyers, and € 11,995.00 for European buyers plus shipping (the additional shipping cost is applicable for European buyers, US buyer's cost includes shipping).
· You would pay nothing until your game is built, tested and ready to ship, or picked up.
· You will get your EA plaque with serial number attached to the game.
· You will get the rug and chrome trim.
· All EA games sold at this 'made to sell retail price' will have some unique and special extras added to the game which will not be available on the games which are sold to the general public at any time and will not be on the original EA games.
· When the time comes for your actual already paid for game to be made, you will be informed that this game is ready to ship, at which point you have the option of having this game shipped to you at no extra cost (apart from shipping) or receiving a full refund on this game of the amount you already paid as an Early Achiever. ​This game, being an original EA game, will also come which chrome trim and a rug but not with the special extras that are with the higher 'retail' priced games.
Ideally we would like you to decide within one week if you would like accept option 2, and if you do, all we ask is that you reply to this update with your confirmation that you would like to buy a 'made to sell' game, confirming your serial number, and you will be added to the list.

We will then contact you in order of the emails I receive from people who want to take up this offer to tell you your game is ready. If, at this point, you change your mind about buying the game, you just need to reply stating that this is your final decision and we will then offer this game to the next in line.

When the finances allow us to build the original game you paid for, regardless of whether you bought a new game or not, you will be contacted to say this this game is ready to ship. Obviously, if you are one of the people who bought a game already with your plaque, this 2nd game will not come with your plaque because you will already have it but, since it is effectively your already paid for EA game, it will, as stated above, come with the chrome trim and rug but it will not come with the bonus extras.

If we do not hear from you within a week, we shall assume that you do not want to purchase a 2nd game and have therefore defaulted to option 1 above: wait for your already paid for EA game to be made.

If you change your mind and find that you do want to purchase one of these 'made to sell' games after the week has expired, just drop us a mail and we will add you to the list... this is not a strict deadline, but we would at least like to know how many of you are interested in this option soon.

Thank you again for your patience with Dutch Pinball, and I will be in touch again soon with another update now that things are hotting up here at DP!!

Kind regards,

Barry

Dutch Pinball”

-5
#10619 39 days ago

Original EA's get screwed again! What else is new.

#10620 39 days ago

“This means that with the parts we have acquired from ARA recently we will first need to make games that we will have to sell that will give us the push we need to go into production”

Aka... I need to raise money with what I have before getting more capacity and capital to buy parts for other games. This is totally a fund raising effort that will likely stall out.

The whole “refund on your ea game” part is completely confusing.

#10621 39 days ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

Original EA's get screwed again! What else is new.

It was pretty clear that he needs to sell games in order to get production going, as he did with the 40 games trapped at ARA... would you feel less screwed if he sold those to non EAs like he did those 40 games? He's simply giving EAs first pass at those games... if you don't buy one, nothing changes, you just wait for your EA game as you would if he sold those games to someone else...

#10622 39 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

The whole “refund on your ea game” part is completely confusing

That's the easy part... if you buy one of the 'go fund me' games, then when your actual EA game is made (less the plaque of course) then you have a choice: take the game or get your original money back...

#10623 39 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

The whole “refund on your ea game” part is completely confusing.

I look at it as ... if you agree to purchase the "seller" games at the 12.5 price you're still in line for a EA game. When that EA game comes to fruition you have the choice of still buying it at the original price OR you can request whatever amount of money you had into it refunded.

#10624 39 days ago
Quoted from meSz:

you have the choice of still buying it at the original price

I would add 'already paid' to avoid confusion

18
#10625 39 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

It was pretty clear that he needs to sell games in order to get production going, as he did with the 40 games trapped at ARA... would you feel less screwed if he sold those to non EAs like he did those 40 games? He's simply giving EAs first pass at those games... if you don't buy one, nothing changes, you just wait for your EA game as you would if he sold those games to someone else...

I have a bad feeling that Barry is going to try and pump out 30 or 40 games (whatever he has the parts for) get paid for them and then.. game over

#10626 39 days ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

I have a bad feeling that Barry is going to try and pump out 30 or 40 games (whatever he has the parts for) get paid for them and then.. game over

Maybe you've been spending too much time on Pinside

#10627 39 days ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

I have a bad feeling that Barry is going to try and pump out 30 or 40 games (whatever he has the parts for) get paid for them and then.. game over

If that were the case, I would imagine, it would've been easier for him to just walk away from it all together.

#10628 39 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Maybe you've been spending too much time on Pinside

ok so I am going to just stop posting

#10629 39 days ago
Quoted from meSz:

If that were the case, I would imagine, it would've been easier for him to just walk away from it all together.

I think what concretehardt is saying is that doing what he fears Barry might be doing will give him more $$$ than packing up earlier...

31
#10630 39 days ago

NSL should include:

1) cash on hand
2) # of games we have COMPLETE parts for
3) # of new games we have to sell before we can start fulfilling original orders.
4) total # of unfulfilled EA orders
5) how on earth we are going to build 300-500 games in 15 months with only a few people.
6) how we plan to account for the much higher cost of parts when we no longer buy them in bulk
7) does the new profit margin include $ for re-licensing the game when we don't finish in time?
8 ) do we have a sugar daddy as it's our only hope?

It contains none of that because the true answer to any of those would reveal the project to be hopeless.

Instead the NSL reads like a scam:

"EA's can have first dibs at giving us more money and we'll turn these parts into TRUE EA EDITIONS! (fear of missing out) And you'll still get the TBL we owe you down the road, a 12.5k value you only paid 8k for! (greed scam)"

There is no down the road. You will never see that extra game. They will never sell enough, nor be able to build enough to make the original EA's whole.

#10631 39 days ago

Yet another “F&@$ you” to EA’s. Buy at the higher price after 5 years!! Really. Implying that if you don’t your original game will be available at some time in the never to come future. How insulting.

How about, if you buy a second game we will ship your original at the same time. This way I can sell it and be whole!

#10632 39 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Maybe you've been spending too much time on Pinside

It’s just hard not to be skeptical after so many broken promises from Barry/DP over the years. The old saying “Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior” is a saying for a reason.. I hope Barry proves me wrong and makes all the EA’s whole!

#10633 39 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

It was pretty clear that he needs to sell games in order to get production going, as he did with the 40 games trapped at ARA... would you feel less screwed if he sold those to non EAs like he did those 40 games? He's simply giving EAs first pass at those games... if you don't buy one, nothing changes, you just wait for your EA game as you would if he sold those games to someone else...

The original EA's that wait get a lesser TBL. No plaque or serial number or any extras they put on the $12,500 US games. So the original EA's get screwed again.
Comprende.

#10634 39 days ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

When the time comes for your actual already paid for game to be made, you will be informed that this game is ready to ship, at which point you have the option of having this game shipped to you at no extra cost (apart from shipping) or receiving a full refund on this game of the amount you already paid as an Early Achiever. ​This game, being an original EA game, will also come which chrome trim and a rug but not with the special extras that are with the higher 'retail' priced games.

If you wait you do not get a TBL like the $12500 US . No special extras unless you order the $12,500 US TBL Original EA's that wait get screwed!
Read the document!

#10635 39 days ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

The original EA's that wait get a lesser TBL. No plaque or serial number or any extras they put on the $12,500 US games. So the original EA's get screwed again.
Comprende.

They only don't get a plaque if they opt to buy one of the 'made to raise money' games because the plaque will be attached to that game... you can't expect to get 2 games with 2 if the same serial number plaque can you??? If you DON'T opt to buy a 2nd game, you obviously get your plaque on your EA game when it's made... EAs who do decide to fork out a load more dosh for a 2nd game get a bit extra... afterall, they're paying another $4k over what their original EA game cost... so a little extra for that extra 4k is good, no? Non EA buyers if that made to sell game don't get that extra but still pay $12.5k... explain how that is screwing EAs? It's giving them first shot at the new games... something they were criticised for NOT doing when they sold the 40 trapped at ARA games...

#10636 39 days ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

If you wait you do not get a TBL like the $12500 US . No special extras unless you order the $12,500

That's because your original EA game, which comes with free chrome trim and free rug, cost $4k less than the 12.5k game, no? You give something extra, and some people see it as taking something away... come on man, surely you can't see it as losing something... EAs who buy in again are simply being rewarded over other people...

#10637 39 days ago
Quoted from Hjbondar:

Buy at the higher price after 5 years!!

I don't think it's compulsory to buy at the higher price... it's an option... I guess you'd be happier if they sold them like they did the first 40...? In which case, just ignore the NSN... pretend they're going to non EAs...

#10638 39 days ago

If Barry is truly trying to help the EAs and wants them to get their games he shouldn't ask EAs for more money.
He should offer new TBLs for 12,500 to non-EAs only and every 2 new money TBLs he makes he should make the third for the next EA in line.
This should be communicated with every EA and a plan should be in place for how this will be accomplished.
He shouldn't say he is making XXX number of TBLs as he is a terrible planner. Make as many as you can along the way until the license expires and at least make some people whole.

EAs shouldn't have to wait until the end of time to get their game and it would be a sign of good faith on his part that he is making games and fulfilling his obligations. i think the non-EAs might spring for the game if they see these assurances.

#10639 39 days ago

Pinball slave - I have a hard time understanding your position. I am curious if you are an EA? I ask because I think most EA’s, such as myself, do not feel this “offer” which implies being shoved to the back of the line for the original game, does not acknowledge their investment and patience.
I expressed my feelings to Barry on this as I imagine others have. Perhaps, as I suggested to Barry, if the offer was order at 12.5 and receive both games - then both parties could get whole!

#10640 39 days ago

Interesting NSNL. Still don’t think Barry has a complete list of EA’s and contact info yet. Otherwise, why send a NSNL? Any serious proposal would have started there with EA’s and before formulating and announcing a program.

Looking at TBL from the future -

built:

55 games delivered @ $8k to $9k

45 games delivering now @ $12.5k

40 games future delivery @ $12.5k

140 games delivered

paid:

180 games @ $8.5k

85 games @ $12.5k

$2.6M collected

$2.6M / 140 games is $18,500 or average cost per game built.

However, this leaves a debt of 125 games at a cost to build of $18.5k. Assuming remaining games cost more to build, maybe $20k each, means no more games will be manufactured after the final parts games are assembled from existing inventory.

If you are an EA and still want the game, buy one from DP at $12.5k, because otherwise you won’t see one. You’ll still be out the original $8.5k, but will have the game. On the other hand, do you want one if it costs $12.5k or are you over TBL? Then don’t buy, but this is your last chance to buy nib.

#10641 39 days ago

Luvthatapex2- your plan works too. I agree that he owes EA’s a concrete and reasonable plan. You have to wonder who he bounces his ideas off??!

#10642 39 days ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

He should offer new TBLs for 12,500 to non-EAs only

That's totally mad... you're saying EAs should not be allowed to buy these new games!!?? And that's somehow helping EAs? Seriously...??

Quoted from Hjbondar:

Pinball slave - I have a hard time understanding your position. I am curious if you are an EA? I ask because I think most EA’s, such as myself, do not feel this “offer” which implies being shoved to the back of the line for the original game, does not acknowledge their investment and patience.
I expressed my feelings to Barry on this as I imagine others have. Perhaps, as I suggested to Barry, if the offer was order at 12.5 and receive both games - then both parties could get whole!

I am an EA and I'm glad I've been offered to buy a game that needs to be sold to raise capitol. I have accepted the offer.

-3
#10643 39 days ago

Does anyone really believe this is a $12,500 game? Take away the scarcity and what's it worth?

#10644 39 days ago

I wonder if one of the 'special extras' is a copy of the Stern coffee table book or R2D2 topper?

#10645 39 days ago

What are the extra doodads that we EAs get if we decide to fork over the extra 4K? Perhaps its the other kind of Dutch "trim" that he is referencing?

#10646 39 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

Does anyone really believe this is a $12,500 game? Take away the scarcity and what's it worth?

I have yet to see any pinball machine that is worth $12500 outside of scarcity/demand related factors.

#10647 39 days ago
Quoted from benheck:

NSL should include:
1) cash on hand
2) # of games we have COMPLETE parts for
3) # of new games we have to sell before we can start fulfilling original orders.
4) total # of unfulfilled EA orders
5) how on earth we are going to build 300-500 games in 15 months with only a few people.
6) how we plan to account for the much higher cost of parts when we no longer buy them in bulk
7) does the new profit margin include $ for re-licensing the game when we don't finish in time?
8 ) do we have a sugar daddy as it's our only hope?
It contains none of that because the true answer to any of those would reveal the project to be hopeless.
Instead the NSL reads like a scam:
"EA's can have first dibs at giving us more money and we'll turn these parts into TRUE EA EDITIONS! (fear of missing out) And you'll still get the TBL we owe you down the road, a 12.5k value you only paid 8k for! (greed scam)"
There is no down the road. You will never see that extra game. They will never sell enough, nor be able to build enough to make the original EA's whole.

9) How much he is paying himself

#10648 39 days ago
Quoted from LITZ:

What are the extra doodads that we EAs get if we decide to fork over the extra 4K? Perhaps its the other kind of Dutch "trim" that he is referencing?

You’ll never get an answer to this. Why let details or facts or information come into play now?

The fear of missing out (as referenced by Ben earlier) has almost 100% driven this entire catastrophe. I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

EAs pretty much have to decide if this game is worth $20k to them. That is what they will have paid. That second game isn’t likely ever going to arrive.

#10649 39 days ago
Quoted from benheck:

NSL should include:

Down-votes???

How can you possibly down-vote this plea from Ben H for TOTAL and complete transparency?

#10650 39 days ago

Ok

To avoid any misunderstanding: ALL EA’s get the extra’s.

If you go for option 2 the first game delivered at 12K5 USD will have the extra’s and the EA plague. Game 2 will be the ‘regular’ unit which is available to all non EA buyers.

If you decide to wait your original EA game will have the extra’s.

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Lighted Pinball Mods
From: $ 127.05
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
PinWoofer
$ 269.00
Cabinet - Other
PinGraffix Pinside Shop
From: $ 5,799.00
Pinball Machine
Operation Pinball
$ 235.00
Boards
RS Technologies
$ 29.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Full Tilt Pinball LEDs
$ 5,799.00
Pinball Machine
Little Shop Of Games
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