It would be interesting to know when the last salary was taken from Dutch Pinball, or if a salary is continuing to be taken.

Gotta love these two posts:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/class-action-lawsuit/page/2#post-3676640

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-preorder-club/page/76#post-3660540

Well, let history tell you if you're right or wrong.....he has to build 500 games in order to get EAs their games.....I think that's wishful thinking. I doubt he will even get to a 100 much less 500. But let's keep on keeping on with BS.

Has anyone already made the joke: “Conditions of preorder: At no point shall EAs drop in to see what condition our condition is in”

I'm totally for non-refundable partial deposits, with a product delivery window clause. Partial deposits get assembly lines moving faster, while full deposits remove the hustle incentive from the upstart manufacturer. That's what we had in this case, as full deposits created a pile of money that wasn't managed well. Partial deposits make upstarts hustle to complete games, because they get paid on completion. The games rolling off first have to have good quality, because we'll document all of it.

Separately, we could debate if DP deserves this third/fourth chance. But, non-refundable partial deposits ensure both parties are motivated to get the transaction completed positively. It separates tire kickers from real buyers if there's $1,000 at stake.

Yeah, yeah, oh yeah!

You are the perfect "New and improved" "Under new management" customer . Send in your $$$ asap!

I agree with everything you say, so long as the deposit is in escrow (held by a reputable distributor like Cointaker) and released to DP only when the game is ready to ship.

After all that's happened with the EAs, I can't imagine there will be many people willing to give DP/Cointaker much of a deposit. (quoted by pinside member)

CoinTaker did not take anyone's money and we are NOT taking deposits on the games until they are ready to ship. Just like the 40 games that did ship, we took the funds and wired the money for the games to be released. We are taking names and that is it. As the games are built (if they are built), we will contact people that we have a game ready for them and they will pay at that time. So please do not tell people to be weary of sending CT money...we have never stolen funds from anyone.

We are not taking deposits...we simply added your name to the list and as the games become available we will contact you. There are zero games built at this time.

The only import fee is about $55.00 per game and that is for DHL to do all of the paperwork and get the game cleared through customs.

They certainly could sell more of the kits if the price dropped a little and the code kept advancing. I have one installed on my Bride and it's and excellent upgrade, but I'm not sure people would buy it as a new game. Plus you can still pick up beater Bride's from Europe pretty cheap and convert them.

What's going to happen to EAs now? did you wire the entire 12,500 to Barry? Why wasn't there a discussion/plan to make the EAs whole before giving this guy more money?

Ct4DkT7VYAAuuzx (resized).jpg

Ok, that's why I'm asking.....

IMHO - Cointaker is the reason additional people have 40 TBLs and EAs have hope of some day getting a game AND just maybe a few more people!!!

BRAVO & thank you Melissa!

Well, there is the rub, the wrong 40 people.......while the guy who wronged people is getting more funds, let's see how many of those TBLs make it into EA's hands.

Anyone care to wager?

Where have you been? The money went to ARA! No more money will be going to Dutch Pinball unless a game is ready to ship to a person per Cointaker.

EA's now have "a chance", without someone stepping in and helping (like CT), there would be ZERO chance. A chance is better than none, don't you think?

So my question is this- DP is claiming that they will be eventually getting games to EA's as things progress... does this also mean that an EA's can simply just get their money back since the equity is there?

I believe CoinTaker deserves a lot of credit for taking this on. They took on a lot of risk dealing with DP with no benefit to themselves. They have said they did not profit from this deal and I do believe that. Buying 40 (+/- the five or so that went to Nitro, was still risky with a lot of money changing hands. International freight shipping, import & customs, dealing with an angry community, dealing with non-stop calls and emails, dealing with DP / ARA and a foreign legal system, wire transfers, all that for the community to bring the games here to US. We can argue who should have got first dibs on the 40, but from Barry's interview yesterday it sounded to me like it was HIS call to not offer to the EA's first. Would any EA really have given DP $12,500 had the deal not gone through CoinTaker? Had Barry called me, I wouldn't have done it. I wouldn't have done it for the original price. No one would. CT is the reason the games got to the US. We have to thank them for that. They are on the market finally and possibly a chance of more being made. You may not like the price, we have no evidence that was their call either. Don't focus your anger toward CT, they deserve our gratitude.

Wow thanks for taking the time to detail the notes and share. For really such an amazing game its sad this ran so far off coarse. Love to believe Barry does want to see the right thing done even at a fail similar to how Gene basically went down with the ship on BBB but I guess time will tell. Unless its solely a pride thing image a crazy senario.....
Barry ships ALL parts to a company like American Pinball who have proven they Can pull off a task with quality and support. (you'll hate this suggestion..) All EA's are asked to pay an additional 2-3k (inflation) and AP builds 2 EA games using the parts pile of 50 noted and 2 to fresh 12,500 buyers. As they would only be a contract builder they keep the 3k per game and apply X percentage of the fresh new 12,5 buyer purchases toward bigger piles of parts. Barry only gets paid after this rinse/repeat cycle is done and AP and Barry split profits after the EA list is done. All crazy but a company like AP (just an example) has the line, skill, team to pull it off AND all money is now on US soil which would build a bit more trust in buyers. Crazy wishful rant....

I am not sure my opinion of Cointaker will ever be the same after this. Sure, they can come on here and say "we are just doing our job", but the fact of the matter is that they were complicit in selling games off that were paid for and designated for EA's with EA numbers physically attached to them. They fact that CT is so nonchalant about it really bugs me.

This has been gone over multiple times. CT was as under no obligation to offer games to EAs. Even though it’s would’ve been a fantastic gesture, reaching out to EAs would’ve taken weeks. CT was, however , obligated to thier own customers who placed $1000 deposits for TBL.

It would make perfect sense for DP to offer a full refund to an EA when his game is ready to ship... of course the EA would be a bit crazy to accept the refund instead of a game which is undoubtedly worth more than the refund... I'm sure DP would love EAs to opt for a refund at that stage because they can then sell that game for more than the refund they'd give... so for their own business benefit they should be offering refunds at least when they have the funds to provide them...

We happen to have 3 of the EA's due too us as well as we purchased some from other people when they wanted to bail. We are in the same exact boat as the other EA's. Hence trying to get these games back into production. We are just trying to see a great game made and hopefully someday (we are in the 100's on the EA list) see our games as well.

And we are far from nonchalant on this. If you say you want to see the EA's get there games, how on earth do you think that was going to happen if this lawsuit was not settled?

When you say 100’s - do you 100’s or several 100’s?

Why is this even a cointaker issue? This is Dutch pinball screwing people. That’s the start and end of the story.

In my emails with Melissa, she didn't say anything about tariffs. But a lot has changed on that front in the last year. She did say $12,500 is the price, and we will know more in 4-6 weeks. They aren't taking deposits and will offer games in the order the names came in.

I think what's more concerning is that it doesn't sound like Barry has given them any plan of how he is assigning numbers between Nitro in Canada and CT in the US, or how he's actually going to get the games built. We are all just stuck waiting to see if he can actually get games built.

I'm a custom home builder with a really good reputation around my town. Occasionally I get a call from someone who was building a house with another custom home builder and their working relationship with that other custom home builder has fallen apart half way through their build. They ask me if I would be interested in coming in and completing their half finished project. I have no idea what sort of quality or materials have gone into the half finished project, what hidden issue may exist and best of all, I would have to warranty the project after it was complete if I were to agree to take it over.

My answer 100% of the time is "thanks but no way, no how, no where, no chance". I'm not stepping into a relationship with anyone to take on their failed project, not now, not ever. I don't care who you are or what your failed project is. I have my own successful projects to complete.

I believe American Pinball, Chicago Gaming, Stern and Spooky will share the same views. Why would they want to step into this shit storm, join forces with Barry, take on a mountain of problems and burn through valuable time and money. There are so many other projects in the pinball world that will garner much greater returns and rewards for your company. Unless your a masochist, why would you do that?

Barry is gonna have to get this done on his own, no reputable, sane company is going to step into this situation and save him.

QSS

I think CT/Melissa is talking about their personal machines, they are in the 1xx number range, as EAs themselves. Not how many machines are going to be sold, names on the list, etc.

Though, I definitely would love to know how many folks are on the list, at this point.

Do you honestly believe with all your heart that DP is going to make enough games to make EA's whole? You can't possibly believe that one guy and a couple volunteers are going to build out 500 games by the end of 2020. Spooky has spent years now honing their process and getting their shit together and now can make 10 games a week. How long do you think DP is going to take to make even one game, let alone hundreds? If you do believe this, I think you are far too trusting of someone who has done nothing but lie and piss away other peoples money for years now. How much have you been told about DP's current financial situation and working capital? I have a hard time believing someone with a successful business like CT can look at this situation with that kind of rose colored glasses. If you don't actually believe DP can build these games, than my thoughts above are absolutely true. If DP goes tits up after building 50 games, how are you going to feel about being a part of selling off games that someone else already paid for? Most people will forget by then, but I won't.

It would be very hard to find 500 buyers at $12500, especially with a game that has been around for several years. Fear of missing out and having something rare drove the last 40 to sell at that price.
It has been said that without the approximately 500 additional sales at that price that the EA games will not get built.

Cointaker is the only one doing anything to make TBL happen. They don't need the hassle, but they are doing it. If you think this is making them rich, you're crazy. I'm sure they don't need it, quite frankly. But they are the most logical as they have been helping with this since BEFORE DP shit the bed. For Cointaker now, it seems to be "no good deed goes unpunished" from my perspective. Jesus, it just seems like if anyone wants to help, the people helping "need to be attacked!!!"

People just have to attack something when something goes wrong, including those trying to make something good happen.... and this is a prime example.

The fact that more TBL machines are rolling out right now is GOOD. Period. There's so much to this story... for those jumping in and getting excited after reading a few posts, go to page 1.

Trust me, there are no rose colored glasses here....yes it is going to be hard for Barry to make this happen but you have nothing without hope. I have been told all I need to know about their current situation, hence no deposits, taking names only. ....by the way, I helped pay for those games as well...I have fully paid for EA's...without the lawsuit being resolved, there was no hope at all... If you listened to Barry's interview, I think he said he had intentions to send a few games to EA's vs new monies coming in. Can I tell you with confidence that we will all be made whole, no I cannot. If you would like to call me and talk to me about this, my phone number is 570-847-9595.

It still makes no sense that the EA's were not given the first chance at buying these 40. Then they could be the ones flipping these to make themselves whole since no one else is going to do that. It would have taken, what...2-3 days to go down the list and at least offer that to them?

What fee did you get for each of the 40 games sold? How much will you get for future games sold? I think everyone here is interested in transparency. People in this thread are claiming you are making nothing from this. You say you have 3 EA machines due to you... I'm curious to know where you are in the balance after collecting fees on EA games sold to new buyers.

Seriously, 12,500 per games airfreighted DHL with all import/export fees paid....and you think I made money...The lawsuit settlement was close to 500K....12500 x 40 is 500,000.00
Check out the rates on airfreight, duties were minimum, as only had to pay DHL to get them through customs...All games were fully insured for the 12,500.00
You do the math....

And no, we did not get any of our EA funds back on this deal....This deal was solely to get things to where they may eventually build and we all may be made whole.
If I were the type of person you are trying to make me out to be, I could have sold them for far more and made a profit...that's not who we are and what we are about...if you would like to discuss more, please feel free to call me 570-847-9595

Cointaker has a very good reputation for a reason. I have asked a couple of other distributors and the guy who works on my machines and they all have great things to say about cointaker. They are a business and Melissa works very hard even answering the phone on nights and weekends to handle questions or fix problems.

Its terrible two posters basically come in here and try to tarnish a reputable business.

People jumping on CT makes no sense at this point. Clearly they are just trying to make the best of a very messy situation. At least they are here letting people know what is going on.

Think through the problems. What about the people who had a deposit with cointaker since 2016? What happens when more then 40 ea's want the game as there are over 100 that still need a game? There is no easy/good way to accomplish any of this without people feeling slighted.

I'm just asking if you got a cut or fee for each game. I see a lot of numbers there but no direct answer.

You go down the list in order. Makes more sense than flippers getting them first. For that reason, I will no longer buy from CT. Not like my business will hurt them or anything, but I did prefer their LEDs.

Cointaker is a distributor and took on a bunch of work to sell those 40 games. What would possibly make you think that they wouldn't get a cut or fee for each game sold? That's not how distribution works.

Because they are implying that they got nothing out of this whole deal.

There is a bigger issue here, I'm talking about reselling a game that was paid for by someone else. It's wrong, anyway you dice it, it's still wrong. The fees the money paid and the details is the transparency part that would have helped with the closure. If it was a deal that wasn't tainted by fraud, then it wouldn't be any of our business. But as it stands right now this is akin to buying stolen goods.

Trying to explain anything to some in this crowd is pointless Cointaker.

LOL, you are giving EA's hope, that is a good thing.

Simply not true Kvan.

The deal we EA's made was with Barry and Jaap. EA's like myself had an opportunity to get our funds back after what Phil thankfully exposed early on. Some decided to get $$ back, others decided to hang in there.

In no legal sense of any kind or anywhere in any country is this akin to "buying stolen goods".

You may not like it but that language and "fraud" is just not accurate. Being a horrible business person like Barry doesn't make it "fraud". Getting into the lawsuit to begin with and not settling it long ago with ARA doesn't make it "fraud".

Carry on

I'm just trying to get the facts straight. This has been an open question. Now we know that Cointaker is financially benefitting from this.

I’m not financially benefitting like u seem to think. I’m getting paid for my time. Do u work for free. Please answer this question