The Big Lebowski
Dutch Pinball, 2016Sad when creative people make horrible business decisions. You could make a play by play book for success and they typically want to toss it out the window. Really think things would of turned out different had it been produced in US. Pinball has sure changed in last 6 years.
Quoted from flynnibus:No, they ran out of money before... which is why they couldn’t pay ara for less than 1/3 of the games they had already collected money for. The dispute about a new price is just Barry fog IMO. Ara held the games they had because DP already owed them big I bet.
As for why DP was dry...Don’t forget they went in and redesigned the hardware.... after collecting money... and did all the work to make the prototypes into actually producible games. All that took time and money. Plus of course paying themselves during that time too.. while they were woefully behind schedule.
Completely blowing your schedule sinks most new products because the spending doesn’t stop... and you have no revenue coming in to stop the hole from getting deeper.
May be completely wrong but didn't they also mid stream fund the DP Bride of Pinbot kits with Lebowski money hoping to double down on red and buy more time?
Quoted from Concretehardt:1000 Euro per game and 51% stake in DP.
My recollection of events was that ARA asked for 1000euro more for each game, DP refused to pay, and after that ARA proposed a way forwards by a hostile takeover, which they also refused... I don't think these two were simultaneous things...
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:facts. 1) DP is out of business (assets = 0
Don't the 500k euros worth of parts they are getting from ARA count as assets? 
I've done some speculative maths also (yes, the 's' at the end of 'math' was intentional 
) and if we assume the parts for the next 100 games are 90% there (financially speaking, not number or weight!) and assuming the total cost to make each game (parts wise) is 6000euro, 10% of which is left to pay) then to make the next 100 games will cost 60k euro, they sell for 10000euro each = 940k euro profit. Let's say the next 100 games worth of parts are for 50% of the cost means that the next 100 games will cost 300k to make and they also sell for 10k each means another 700k profit. Total profit with zero parts left is 1.64million. This should be enough to pay the rest of the ARA debt plus the new manufacturing set up (which will be lower than usual due to massive inventory of parts already made) and have plenty of cash left for making the parts for the next batch of games... roughly speaking... fire away!
Quoted from Roostking:Here is "a" video shot in a penthouse. Not sure if this is the party.
Looks like one kickass party! Would’ve loved to be there.
Quoted from ToucanF16:Looks like one kickass party! Would’ve loved to be there.
That gal at the beginning was gorgeous lol
Quoted from pinballslave:My recollection of events was that ARA asked for 1000euro more for each game, DP refused to pay, and after that ARA proposed a way forwards by a hostile takeover, which they also refused... I don't think these two were simultaneous things...
Don't the 500k euros worth of parts they are getting from ARA count as assets?
I've done some speculative maths also (yes, the 's' at the end of 'math' was intentional ) and if we assume the parts for the next 100 games are 90% there (financially speaking, not number or weight!) and assuming the total cost to make each game (parts wise) is 6000euro, 10% of which is left to pay) then to make the next 100 games will cost 60k euro, they sell for 10000euro each = 940k euro profit. Let's say the next 100 games worth of parts are for 50% of the cost means that the next 100 games will cost 300k to make and they also sell for 10k each means another 700k profit. Total profit with zero parts left is 1.64million. This should be enough to pay the rest of the ARA debt plus the new manufacturing set up (which will be lower than usual due to massive inventory of parts already made) and have plenty of cash left for making the parts for the next batch of games... roughly speaking... fire away!
Depends on the parts missing. Couple of screws, easy. Entire bowling mechs, not so much.
Quoted from Yelobird:May be completely wrong but didn't they also mid stream fund the DP Bride of Pinbot kits with Lebowski money hoping to double down on red and buy more time?
A 25th Anniversary BoP 3.0 Super LE was proposed by DP post-TBL. How much $ they put into this effort is debatable as their initial pitch for it was pretty much DOA when it was announced at TPF 2017.
DP was already manufacturing and shipping BOP 2.0 kits prior to TBL's availability. The quality and positive reviews received for this product was one of the things DP based their credibility (at the time) on when they first promoted TBL sales.
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:A 25th Anniversary BoP 3.0 Super LE was proposed by DP post-TBL. How much $ they put into this effort is debatable as their initial pitch for it was pretty much DOA when it was announced at TPF 2017.
DP was already manufacturing and shipping BOP 2.0 kits prior to TBL's availability. The quality and positive reviews received for this product was one of the things DP based their credibility (at the time) on when they first promoted TBL sales.
Im installing a BOP 2.0 in a friends now and its a nice kit but its a proc board and mostly 3rd party parts, to my understanding they are done with BOP 2.0
Quoted from Roostking:Depends on the parts missing. Couple of screws, easy. Entire bowling mechs, not so much.
Of course... the speculation that the first 100 parts covers 90% of a machine covers that.
Come on guys, there must be a better counter-argument than that! I've painted a positive picture for the future of DP there... where are you?? Don't disappoint me with your counter attack! 
Quoted from wcbrandes:Can someone post this video please, I was not there
Cheers
The presentation video is gone now. I found the old thread and the links are dead.
Phil opened up taking issue with Gary Stern's "I'm a manufacturer" line, instead declaring himself a pinball company, and if all you are is a manufacturer you might as well manufacturer coffins to put yourself in. Or something to that effect, definitely involved coffins 
.
5 years later, Stern has never been bigger and DP was a complete clusterf_ pretty much since that night.
Quoted from wcbrandes:Cool thanks would love to get the presentation as well if anyone can dig that up . Cheers
Here's the audio:
https://www.pinballnews.com/shows/expo2014/dutchpinball.mp3
Besides Phil's (now) ridiculously brazen boastings, the drunk in the crowd is memorable.
Quoted from Robertstone0407:Im installing a BOP 2.0 in a friends now and its a nice kit but its a proc board and mostly 3rd party parts, to my understanding they are done with BOP 2.0
Not sure where Barry (remaining DP) stands on this now, but he was supposedly marketing BoP 2.0 again 4 months ago.
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:Here's the audio:
https://www.pinballnews.com/shows/expo2014/dutchpinball.mp3
Besides Phil's (now) ridiculously brazen boastings, the drunk in the crowd is memorable.
Nice. His actual quote was worse than I remembered it above. You can start at 1 minute 00.
Quoted from pinballslave:Of course... the speculation that the first 100 parts covers 90% of a machine covers that.
Come on guys, there must be a better counter-argument than that! I've painted a positive picture for the future of DP there... where are you?? Don't disappoint me with your counter attack!
You are just lumping parts together as if they are the same. Hell, they could have 99% of the parts, but if 1% is the bowling alley that is missing, they might as well be at 1% of the parts needed. Not not going to happen.
100 parts worth of games but no cabinets. Say 150-200k for that. Where does that money come from? Who builds the cabinets? Someplace in Europe? Gonna be a fortune to build. Outside the EU? Gonna be a fortune to ship and import.
Say by some miracle they get the cabs. Who builds the pins? Barry & Friends in a garage? They'd make 1 a week tops and have to take zero salary for 2 years - so basically be in a debtor's labor prison of their own making. Doubt that's even legal in the EU.
Their best bet would be to find a sugar daddy to front the cabs and ship what they have to American Pinball or somebody in the US for assembly. Most importantly they have to LET IT GO. This game is no longer a bright and shining future, it's an albatross around their neck.
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:Here's the audio:
https://www.pinballnews.com/shows/expo2014/dutchpinball.mp3
Besides Phil's (now) ridiculously brazen boastings, the drunk in the crowd is memorable.Not sure where Barry (remaining DP) stands on this now, but he was supposedly marketing BoP 2.0 again 4 months ago.
The party was excellent, but not enough to suck all the preorder money. I had a deposit down and could have gone if I’d bought a plane ticket. Darn darn darn
Phil wasn’t boasting as much as he was HypeN, and people ate it up.
Quoted from benheck:...Most importantly they have to LET IT GO. This game is no longer a bright and shining future, it's an albatross around their neck.
... and the Creedence tapes are gone forever, too.
Quoted from benheck:... Most importantly they have to LET IT GO. This game is no longer a bright and shining future, it's an albatross around their neck.
I disagree (go figure). I think Barry should dedicate the rest of his life, if need be, to getting every "Early Achiever" the TBL game that they were promised and fully paid Dutch Pinball for.
I'll just continue to wait and enjoy my coffee in the meantime ...
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:I disagree (go figure). I think Barry should dedicate the rest of his life, if need be, to getting every "Early Achiever" the TBL game that they were promised and fully paid Dutch Pinball for.
I'll just continue to wait and enjoy my coffee in the meantime ...
[quoted image]
You can’t give people what you don’t have. Who will make TBL for Barry - the Chinamen? Jackie Treehorn perhaps? This dumpster fire will continue burning for long while. And it will probably get worse.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:The party was excellent, but not enough to suck all the preorder money.
No, they used some of it for the blowout party, demonstrating how they proritized the money they had received.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:You can’t give people what you don’t have. Who will make TBL for Barry - the Chinamen? Jackie Treehorn perhaps? This dumpster fire will continue burning for long while. And it will probably get worse.
Dunno. This game is too good and I've put too much time and money into this effort to just give up and walk away though. As long as DP is breathing, I'm going to continue to hope for the best.
Besides ... the coffee's free. 
Collected the stats:
180 EA’s paid DP $10k = $1.8M and received nothing
50 people paid CT $10k = $.5M and received a game
40 people paid CT (plus a few other sources) $12.5k = $.5M and will receive a game
40 of this total amount (WAG) have already or will be soon reselling game for $15k - $25k, meaning the second buyers pay between $.6M and $1M and will receive a game.
Overall, people who paid CoinTaker in the first round got the best deal. TBL’s are available so if you want one, now is the time to act. You’ll have to pay market price, and you have to ignore whatever funds have already been lost.
DP may be lucky to assemble 10 games from the mounds of parts it will be receiving. Games must be built before year end, I have heard from multiple sources. Sep thru Dec is four months. You’ve heard Heck say they’d be lucky to build one a week. Assuming these are assembled we will add
10 people pay DP $20k = .2M and will receive a game.
Total TBL’s built = 100
Quoted from benheck:100 parts worth of games but no cabinets. Say 150-200k for that. Where does that money come from? Who builds the cabinets? Someplace in Europe? Gonna be a fortune to build. Outside the EU? Gonna be a fortune to ship and import.
Say by some miracle they get the cabs. Who builds the pins? Barry & Friends in a garage? They'd make 1 a week tops and have to take zero salary for 2 years - so basically be in a debtor's labor prison of their own making. Doubt that's even legal in the EU.
Their best bet would be to find a sugar daddy to front the cabs and ship what they have to American Pinball or somebody in the US for assembly. Most importantly they have to LET IT GO. This game is no longer a bright and shining future, it's an albatross around their neck.
If they assembled 1 game a week during the years they sucked salary out of the company while they were doing nothing, this plan might have worked.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Collected the stats:
180 EA’s paid DP $10k = $1.8M and received nothing
50 people paid CT $10.5k = $.5M and received a game
...
FWIW: Your numbers are incorrect.
190+/- Early Achievers paid $8,500 - 9,500ish. Most paid $8,500 and only 50 or so actually received their games. 140 or so have been screwed so far.
40 of the previously paid for games were just resold to some additional folks that had previously paid a refundable $1K deposit to CT or Nitro -OR- like Kaneda, just have a connection with them and were given the opportunity to jump to the front of the line.
These buyers all paid $12,500.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Collected the stats:
180 EA’s paid DP $10k = $1.8M and received nothing
50 people paid CT $10.5k = $.5M and received a game
40 people paid CT (plus a few other sources) $12.5k = $.5M and will receive a game
40 of this total amount (WAG) have already or will be soon reselling game for $15k - $25k, meaning the buyers paid between $.6M and $1M and received a game.
Overall, people who paid CoinTaker in the first round got the best deal. TBL’s are available so if you want one, now is the time to act. You’ll have to pay market price, and you have to ignore whatever funds has been personally lost.
DP will be lucky to assemble 10 games from the mounds of parts it will be receiving. Games must be built before year end, I have heard from multiple sources. Sep thru Dec is four months. You’ve heard Heck say they’d be lucky to build one a week. Assuming these are assembled we will add
10 people pay DP $20k = .2M and will receive a game.
Total TBL’s built = 100
Your numbers are way off.
190 people paid 8500. 50 got a game. But ARA was never paid for those games
40 people paid cointaker / Nitro 12500 and should be getting a game.
140 people still paid in full and got nothing but a party and a tshirt for their $8500
People that paid cointaker in the first round only game a 1000 deposit. They still needed to pay an additional 11500 to get one of the 40 games.
Quoted from Roostking:Hell, they could have 99% of the parts, but if 1% is the bowling alley that is missing, they might as well be at 1% of the parts needed.
That's why I was careful to specify value and not number...
Quoted from pinballslave:if we assume the parts for the next 100 games are 90% there (financially speaking, not number or weight!)
The biggest question here that has zero clarity is who the hell builds these other hypothetical 100 machines from parts? What factory and what set of tools and what humans? When was the last time Barry built a pinball machine personally by himself if ever? What is the cost to hire people and buy tools and equipment to actually build these and what do those realities do to the price, timing or likelihood that any game beyond the ARA games is ever made?
Quoted from benheck:100 parts worth of games but no cabinets. Say 150-200k for that. Where does that money come from? Who builds the cabinets? Someplace in Europe? Gonna be a fortune to build. Outside the EU? Gonna be a fortune to ship and import.
Say by some miracle they get the cabs. Who builds the pins? Barry & Friends in a garage? They'd make 1 a week tops and have to take zero salary for 2 years - so basically be in a debtor's labor prison of their own making. Doubt that's even legal in the EU.
That's more like it, I knew you wouldn't let me down Mr Heck
With a calculated potential profit of €1.6million (less if the cabs are closer to what you calculate, although I really don't think 200 cabs would cost $1k each) they could persuade a company to work for promised money when the cash flows in... or use whoever helped them out of the ARA debt... I can't answer that... all I'm doing is demonstrating that there does seem to be a way out... because of the parts, which apparently don't count as assets according to another knowledgeable gentleman...
Quoted from Dkjimbo:The biggest question here that has zero clarity is who the hell builds these other hypothetical 100 machines from parts? What factory and what set of tools and what humans? When was the last time Barry built a pinball machine personally by himself if ever? What is the cost to hire people and buy tools and equipment to actually build these and what do those realities do to the price, timing or likelihood that any game beyond the ARA games is ever made?
They have Top Men working on it!
Quoted from foxtj24:Your numbers are way off.
190 people paid 8500. 50 got a game. But ARA was never paid for those games
40 people paid cointaker / Nitro 12500 and should be getting a game.
140 people still paid in full and got nothing but a party and a tshirt for their $8500
People that paid cointaker in the first round only game a 1000 deposit. They still needed to pay an additional 11500 to get one of the 40 games.
The closer we got to the order cutoff, the more expensive the games were. I paid more than $8,500 because chrome trim and rug became options at an extra cost.
Quoted from Dkjimbo:The biggest question here that has zero clarity is who the hell builds these other hypothetical 100 machines from parts? What factory and what set of tools and what humans? When was the last time Barry built a pinball machine personally by himself if ever? What is the cost to hire people and buy tools and equipment to actually build these and what do those realities do to the price, timing or likelihood that any game beyond the ARA games is ever made?
I thought in the podcast posted earlier by Pinballnews they mentioned a company called Zytech??
Quoted from cpr9999:I thought in the podcast posted earlier by Pinballnews they mentioned a company called Zytech??
Zytech is out of the picture. They were never paid for what they already did. Rumor is they are the next to sue DP.
Quoted from foxtj24:Zytech is out of the picture. They were never paid for what they already did. Rumor is they are the next to sue DP.
DP owe Xytech nothing
Quoted from foxtj24:Rumor is they are the next to sue DP.
Never believe rumours, especially ones you start yourself 
Quoted from Pinhead1982:DP owe Xytech nothing
Zytech fronted the money for everything done in china and the 2 Chinese prototypes. Why does DP not have to pay them?
Quoted from RTR:If they assembled 1 game a week during the years they sucked salary out of the company while they were doing nothing, this plan might have worked.
How do you know they did that? I heard that all staff had been laid off and Barry and Jaap were not taking any salary while things were in limbo...
Quoted from pinballslave:How do you know they did that? I heard that all staff had been laid off and Barry and Jaap were not taking any salary while things were in limbo...
They lied and told us they had to take a salary due to Dutch law.
Quoted from Pinhead1982:They have Top Men working on it!
Hey! Wrong movie.
You're only allowed to use Big Lebowski movie quotes in this thread!
Quoted from foxtj24:They lied and told us they had to take a salary due to Dutch law.
I did not know that. (Back on track with the movie quotes ).
Quoted from Hoss_Coog:The closer we got to the order cutoff, the more expensive the games were. I paid more than $8,500 because chrome trim and rug became options at an extra cost.
The forty sold through CT have chrome trim & rugs
Quoted from whitey:The forty sold through CT have chrome trim & rugs
That's because the Early Achievers' games all included chrome trim and a rug in the original $8,500 cost as a sales incentive.
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:chrome trim and a rug in the original $8,500 cost as a sales incentive
That rug was the thing that pushed me to buy in, believe it or not... and now they're sending them to the non EA buyers?? That's not right... surely... they should be keeping the rugs to send with the EA games when they get made... if I get nothing out of this, at least I want my rug!!!
Quoted from RTR:Everyone needs to chill out. I heard a NSNL is coming out soon. That always provides a lot of useful information and clears everything up.
Standing by ...
For those of you with enough nostalgia, drive or fly on your rug to Naples Florida on August 18th.
https://silverspot.net/film/the-big-lebowski
I went last summer, )
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