That's right dude. The ringer cannot look empty.

By working with them, I mean funding to get this off the ground and in production. Obviously people will buy the game if they have the opportunity, just not pre-order, for the most part. There are still those people out there though.

FYI (posted today):

I'm glad you agree with me.

Yes, but if they were to announce a large production run, how many people do you think would still be lining up to pay the 12.5k?

That’s nearly six tons of tighty whities - 40 crates weighing 300 lbs each. possibility?

So the 40 games doesn't even cover the amount they owe ARA. EAs will never get anything.

Sounds like parts for another 100 games.
Also sounds like Barry is getting a line setup to produce those hundred. However, if I understood the podcast, probably sell these 100 for more cash to make DP in the black. Then after that, satisfy the EAs.

We will see.

Seems you misunderstood the big picture outlook that I meant, but yes, if they show up for sale, they will fly off the shelves. Problem is, nobody is going to work with DP and manufacture these pins. Sadly.. Cause i know 2 Instabuys.

Wrong, at least 2. They aren't interested in a project or no support though. They want to order, deliver and play. With the usual tweaks of course..

No, I understood and I answered you the first time.

You might be right. In the pinball world, a podcast can change everything. In the real world, unless there is real$$$ injected, its not happening.

Gotta say this TBL thread is quite amusing! It will definitely go down as the most Drama/BS / etc ever in pinball

You could actually make a movie from it

‘Amusing’ probably isn’t the right word for many in this thread and it may be in a 3 way tie with the magic girl BS and Predator— maybe a 4way with Alien?

Sorry dude, nobody is paying $12k for TBL if it were a full run 3000+ machines when better LE’s are going for much less. This machine is only $12.5K because there’s only 40. Basics of supply and demand my friend

Answer to first question: probably no-one, but I'm sure this is not the intention.
2nd question: Dutch Pinball will pay them...
Check the podcast: http://www.podcastgarden.com/episode/july-2019-pinball-industry-recap_147390
At about the 1hr point...
The stuff DP are buying from ARA includes parts for a further 100 games to be built... as mentioned earlier... I see this as a very optimistic situation!

Who says they have to be $12500? They needed that # to satisfy debt on these 40.

Yeah, I'm sure they're aware that they won't continuously sell at $12.5k. That was priced that way for a reason.

There would be a market for future TBL production at $10,000 a unit.

Special Editions like a Jesus Edition, Walter Edition, etc. probably could be sold for $12,500.

Then there's the decontented edition. Remove the bowling alley, upper playfield, and rug bash toy, no chrome trim, no rug, and a basic translite. That could sell for $7,500 to $8,000 per unit.

Bearing in mind they sold out in one day, they were clearly underpriced! I fully get that the price is boosted by the prospect that DP will go bust and therefore they'll be very rare, but neverthless it's a good indication to prospective manufacturers that there's a strong market for the product, which should provide some good leverage for DP when they have the next company set up to manufacture with little to no cash for the said setting up... with enough parts already made to build 100 games on top of that, I'd say it's an attractive proposition for a manufacturing outfit to start production with a cotractural agreement to be paid when the cash starts to flow in...

I just hope they start making this game in China and then when I order one and it arrives without legs I can say "I didn't blame anyone for the loss of my legs. Some Chinaman took them from me."

It would seem from listening to that podcast that Dutch Pinball has been working with or negotiating with a venture capitalist or a financial institution for some time now. After DP explained their plans during final negotiations, it's my assumption that ARA agreed to take a lump sum from the sale of the 40 games and agreed to carry the balance owed. If my speculation is true, that's a smart compromise for both companies.

I'm not into making casual predictions like others are but right now it seems to soon to call this a dead situation.

Imagine if DP hadn't been so arrogant with everyone's money and actually came to terms with ARA and rolled with the price increases at the time and the machines would have continued down the line. To me this is just confirms the mis-management of people's money and the arrogance DP had which ultimately caused so many to lose so much.

I listened to the segment of the podcast about DP and basically you have one guy who's friends with Barry and who's been involved with it being really optimistic and telling some of what he knows but not all, and then his co-host who's more of an outsider to the situation listening to it all and saying he's still very skeptical, so while I think there's some good info in there, I think there's a lot of bias on the part of the reporter as he tries to make his friend sound like not such a bad guy.

Completely agree. And I was also reading between the lines of that podcast and that's why I was careful to qualify my comments.

First hurdle is shipping 40 games

Unfortunately - their recap of the situation is purely from Barry's telling of the story... Jonathan goes on to try to talk about the court case, but then says he doesn't know the details... but was told from Barry.. etc.

And we know the reliability of Barry-only telling of stories...

I think the big take away is Barry still had to fund money above and beyond the 40 game sales... and there is a ARA deadline to beat the summer shutdown to get the 40 games out of the ARA facility before their 3 week break. And the games won't go right from ARA to customers... but ARA to DP's new storage/place.. and then be inspected and shipped from there. So back into 'when DP gets something done...'

They don't say which week they are referring to, but one can assume possibly they mean the week we are in.

It sounded like Barry has to get the TBLs from ARA by Friday.

If you're referring to which week they need to get the games out of ARA before they close for 3 weeks, they stated 'this week'... so just the rest of today and tomorrow...

Jonathon's investigative journalism needs to be taken with a grain of salt. He is good friends with Barry and only repeats, underscores, and promotes Barry's views on things.

I haven't heard anything yet that goes beyond the goal of getting Barry out of debt to ARA. It is likely that Barry personally guaranteed this debt as many small business owners have to do. If that is true, he will do anything to get out from it.

This 'news' that some of you see as good already has the characteristic DP 'other shoe' bad news drop. A few weeks ago Barry said he came to terms with ARA and they just had to sell the 40 games and they were getting the parts for 100 more and could move on. Implying he had parts for 100 games as 'capital' to continue the company.

Now we learn, they have to sell more than the 40 games for ARA debt. They have to assemble the parts from the 100 more and sell them to satisfy the debt to ARA.

Also - for you hardcore cheerleaders - TBL is $12,500 solely because of the speculation value. If DP ever finds a financial angel and full production begins don't count on those games selling as is for $12,500.

I don't think DP were being arrogant with people's money... rolling with the price increase would have meant asking all the EAs to cough up another 1000euro, or possibly have a near zero or negative profit for themselves... I think Barry was wanting to honour the price he'd set to the EAs, which is why he stood his ground... also, I'm pretty sure not all the EAs would have gone along with it and there would have been chaos... if all the EAs had known the mess that was about to happen, I'm sure they'd have all paid the extra 1k though... I certainly told DP that I'd prefer to pay an extra 1k for the game, but everyone would have to buy-in, and that probably wasn't going to happen.

Where did you learn that all the profit from the 100 assembled games is needed to pay off ARA?

In the podcast it was stated that the 40 machines recently sold only partly covered what was owed to ARA.

This I heard, but I didn't hear that they have to sell the entire 100 to pay off ARA... this is the bit that I was wondering where RTR got his info from. If that's accurate then things are much worse than I thought!!

Maybe he forgot to put the words 'some of' between 'sell' and 'them'...

If DP does start using the parts to make new machines, who's going to send them money up front for a game?

I think people saying the 40 games would cover the settlement was happy suggestive inference by some people.

The information shared did not say the 40 games would cover the amount needed... only that a settlement was agreed upon that would include freeing up the completed games, parts, and other IP... and that selling the 40 games was part of the scheme to make it happen. It was covered in this thread multiple times questioning that the net from selling those 40 games would cover what ARA would want in a settlement.

Confusing the issue was it was not clear if the deal struck over how to liquidate the 40 games with CT was an arrangement directly involving ARA or not. That's still not clear.

What is more clear from this podcast is confirming the settlement still require(d/s) Barry/DP to arrange more things to make the settlement happen... including funding, getting the games OUT of ARA, transport, storage, etc. Oh, and a new 3 week blackout period

Its all been speculation on who/how DP would fund the settlement and the gap needed to take what they get beyond the 40 games.. and do something with it.

And I totally agree with the comments on the quality of the 'journalism' on the source. It was very clear that this was yet another Barry-fed one sided telling of the story... with Jonathan's own takes of his physical part of the tour... but no independent sourcing of information about the court case, the settlement, etc.

Edited to add: I was quite following the timeline on the arrangement vs the NSNL vs their visit vs this end of week deadline. So wasn't clear on what was still TBD vs behind them. Cross your fingers!

No-one.

disagree. I would have been in for 12.5 if i could have used a cc as I didn't have 12.5 in cash sitting around that day. If they only built 100 more I'd debate buying one at 10, but if it made it to regular production no way I'd pay 10 in its current form. At that points its not rare and frankly there are better games for the money. Design wise its a little dated already compared to the latest machines coming out.

Sorry there is no way they have parts to build 100 games. Maybe they have 100 p-roc boards, a few more parts but no way they have 100 cabinets, 100 monitors, 100 board sets, 100 computers, etc, etc, etc. I bet they couldn't build 5 complete games with the parts they have.

Remember when we were told contract manufacturing for pinball was going to be awesome? Seems like it was pitched as a "pinball is easy" solution back then as well.

It worked out for CGC when they had Stern building the first run of MMRs, and it's probably not a crazy concept if you score a sweet license but don't want to build a full manufacturing facility just to make a small number of boutique-priced games. But you've still got to properly manage your funds.

Nothing wrong with the concept... It's still the model used by the vast majority of manufacturing companies need.

What we have here is a breakdown of the terms and execution between two parties... nothing about the viability or preference for Contract Manufacturing.

It says more about the business practices and savvy of the people involved... not the task at hand.

They had licensing for 300 machines, so even if they complete that many, they will remain rare. It would be great if they are successful and could renew the license, producing more games. I'd love to see the $8500 price point. But how many times do new games go down in price? People are shelling out $12.5k routinely now with JJP CEs.

I'd hardly say it's routine.

I didn't realise the licence was for a limited number of games! Are you sure that's the case? It kind of puts another angle on things!!

Well, more common may be a better phrasing.

That's my understanding, but they could renew the license if successful.

So 60 games built, 40 coming
Another 100 in parts , build another 100
So 200 games x 10K = 2 mil - the EA games = ??? , need a mil to start up again = a very complicated situation
Looks Grim

Are you sure this is not a pure stab in the dark??

One other small consideration is that there are parts for 200 games... just not as many as there are for 100... and I'm well informed that the extra 100 parts above the 'main 100' parts are the more expensive parts...