Sorry, called the wrong person a human paraquat. You know who you are.

You human paraquat!

I see some of the ejected folks have come back without learning their lesson.

Don’t worry, this thread will be here for you to continue to lick them salty balls. Meanwhile the real club will be an appreciation thread for this great pinball machine you can’t afford. Salty ball lickers not welcome

How’s that taste?

Shipping 40 ft container
Cost no more then $10k incl clearing USA
And transport to Cointaker

The amount of whining in this thread is just ridiculous. The original machines were lost by DP because of horrendous accounting and practices, and as such, the machines no longer belong to DP. It's unfortunate, but it's reality. The money was given to DP and THEY lost it.

An example I can think of is I have a friend that gave his money to a real estate investor back in 2008 who promised him a huge return on a property he was buying (he should have known better and he admits it), and he lost BIG. The money he invested went into a house that was foreclosed, and he never got a thing. He doesn't drive by the property the investor bought and think he has a claim to the house now nor does he believe he should have been given any rights to buy it later. It went south, it hurt, and that's the facts. He got burned by the investor, and boy does he know it (the investor ended up in jail).

So when the property went up for auction, he didn't show up and tell all the bidders he hope the house burned down and that the house went up in flames... mainly because it was the investor that burned his money up!

I don't know why some people on here don't get it!!

I am very sorry to those that lost their money on the initial investment, as I am sorry for my friend. But let's not confuse how things have to move forward.

I am glad to see more games coming and hoping for success moving forward. Perhaps this success will then lead to some money being returned to the initial investors getting some money back, which would be better than nothing!

You sound like you need some French Cries and a Whinekin Fos

41FDF2F0-A4FE-4430-81B3-B0E76F04282F (resized).jpeg

I had an 8K nest egg for years to get a Lebowski. I held out for years and years in hopes of a resolution. I only gave up when I saw the Wonka premiere, knowing I would actually receive this machine. I love both movies dearly, I was so f'n happy to see WW actually come to fruition. JJP did not take any deposit, not one cent, when I preordered on April 12th and I still was one of the very first deliveries that went out on the first truck. The Lebowski fiasco taught me a lot about preordering and the traps to look out for.

Mmhm. I get the frustration they have but the claim to the games and hatred towards new owners boggles my mind.

It is far from "hatred." Again, this is (was) the Preorder thread, which got hijacked by prospectors. For those who can't comprehend, there were actually some EA's willing to step up with additional money, yet were completely overlooked. Sure, some would have balked at $21,000 in total costs ($12.5K + $8.5K), but shouldn't they have at least been given that courtesy/opportunity to pass?

I have found the EAs to be laid back, down-to-earth fellow pinball enthusiasts. This isn't about player hating or whatever you call it. You would feel much different if you spent $8.5K and several years on a false promise.

This could have been easily alleviated a few years ago with more capital from EAs if the opportunity arose. Instead, DP played "hide the weenie" with the behind-the-scenes until the statute of limitations ran out on preorder credit card deposits.

And lastly, the "machines don't belong to any one person until they arrive at the door step" BS wouldn't fly in US court with a US company. DP advertised these games, collected payment from consumers, then failed to refund or ship the advertised product. The challenge here, of course, is that we are dealing with a (now) one-man operation in The Netherlands that will most likely be officially defunct after the container ships.

"So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know..."

Whatever Dude (resized).jpg

Wasn’t ARA’s responsibility to ask the EA’s if they wanted to pay 12.5k first.

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Zidware do the same thing to customers? What legal action happened after that? Are those people still owed games? My understanding is deeproot was kind to those people and gave them an option to go in on a deeproot game at a discount, which wasnt legally required. Which is something ARA obviously didn’t care to do and had no obligation to do so.

People that invested in Heighway didn’t get games either. This has happened before. Hence my earlier advice. Don’t invest. Buy a game when games are ready. We are all adults. Secure your own $. I get the frustration but to believe you are owed a game by ARA or cointaker is silly.

Back to your original point, is there an owners thread? Having trouble finding it. Link? Would be happy to switch off the preorder thread.

FUDGE... Fudge... FUDGE....

So mad at myself that I missed the ever small window to get one of the remaining games... Such is life... This machine is one of my "holy grail" wants...

Jeff

The 40 pins are the property of ARA. So I don’t see how this would play out any different in the US. The pins are effectively being sold by ARA through DP and CT. ARA was the debtee that won their lawsuit.

ARA was not the debtor. The don’t owe anyone anything.

I think he meant debtee (I.E. creditor)

Just a random thought on how this could have been resolved.

The 40 games were sold out almost instantly which indicates they were way way too cheap.

With this in mind the most equitable solution would have been:

- total cost to repay Ara = $x
- total outstanding deposits/payments received from pre-orders = $y
- total outstanding to other suppliers = $z

- total liability = ($x+$y+$z)

- total liability per game = ($x+$y+$z)/40

So why not sell the games at this price and repay all liabilities owed by DP instead of some behind closed doors price negotiated with Cointaker?

The pre-order depositors, suppliers and ARA get given their money back in full. The games are released to the market. Sell them at whatever the market will bear with a reserve of the real cost.

Even more equitable would have been if the Early Achievers then had first option to buy back in at the new market price.

Why would ARA even care?

Pinball is probably not their main business. Also, they in no way probably wanted to deal with a lot EAs. More headaches than worth for ARA. Now if you add a “Z” element called Cointaker it simplifies it for ARA.

100% agree - this deal looks like something negotiated directly between ARA and Cointaker. Which is why it is so unfair. My theory was more an “ideal world” scenario.

In any case, the games were sold WAY to cheap.

I don't think you understand what I was saying, maybe because you can't read I'm not sure. But I think what I said very very clearly was, if BL is only buried in some rich guys basement because the very handful of people who do already own them, never sell them, so they never end up in a pincade near you, then you can't enjoy them. So the upside is with 40 more games hitting the streets, good chance a handful will end up at pinball shows, and pincades, rather than in some rich guys basement never seeing the light of day. How is that the 'GOD DAMN stupid thing to say'. If you didn't understand what I said maybe you could ask for some clarification rather than being a God Damn stupid poster. Just saying.

Always entertaining to watch two guys with nearly 70 games between the two of them - total worth of both collections combined at around $350K (averaging $5K per game which some surely aren't and some certainly are over) - mention that they're either not rich or that "most" people can't afford $12.5K for a single pinball machine.

Really puts things in perspective. I don't know whether to laugh or cry softly.

ARA didn't contact CT to sell the games -- it was DP.

Thanks Suze Orman, but the EAs paid for the first 80+ games and whatever leftover parts. Without their investment, there would have been no TBL for anyone to play or purchase.

I never said ARA and CT owe people games. That is ridiculous. It is DP who owes people games or refunds. I am tired of explaining the obvious.

Whatever LeVar Burton. YOU and a few others need to go back and read this thread from Page 1.

Do you actually know who bought each game and where they will end up?

I find it hard to believe anyone is giving money to DP.

EA's you should get together and get a lawyer (which I said about 18 months ago) and go after DP and get an injunction to stop those games leaving the Netherlands - in effect the only chance you had of getting your game has just been sold down the river.

Any idea how many people had deposits with Cointaker/Nitro? You really need this info to determine how much below market the games were priced. If I had $8500 in CT for the past three years, I would have emotionally written it off, so it would feel like I was getting the game for only $4k. Yeah, I know I could have gotten a refund and I know that it really cost me $12.5k; however, I wrote the first check years ago. It's the same psychology used by companies to entice people to buy in installments.

I also wonder if any new buyers were able to jump the line leaving some who had deposits with CT on the outside?

I believe it's the fear of throwing more good money at bad money. Also, DP always gives these folks a glimmer of hope at each turn which never comes to fruition and probably never will.

Reading this thread for as long as I have now, seems like someone has nailed my left foot to the floor and I’m wondering why I keep walking around in a circle.

I hope some people will at least admire and respect the class, dignity and humor that many of the EA's have shown here now and over the years. And there are some EA’s that deserve credit just for biting their tongue and remaining silent.

As a veteran of the original pinball disaster, I know well the madness of an insensitive and broken record Pinside. I lost my cool so many times in the Jpop thread that I should have been fitted for a straight jacket.

Best wishes guys. I know its more than the loss of money or the game, it’s also the judgmental chipping away from Pinside that is so disheartening.

Whoops, fixed

This is pointless to argue. And shouldn't be dealt with here. Much more important things at hand. @drfightner I appoligize for my initial reaction. I should have just let it go.

@DPO, you have no clue how I got my games, what price they were, and how hard I worked to get some of them with second and third jobs.

If you'd like to discuss further, either of you, please feel free to PM me.

Brian

pinghetto , well said! Nice collection you have there! We share a lot of the same pins!

Second and third jobs to buy pinball machines? Maybe you have a problem...

We all have a problem, it’s called “pinball addiction”. And it’s why we’re all on Pinside. I can think of a lot worse addictions than pinball!

And some even cost more!

If you are on pinside, we all have a problem. Pinball is awesome! 2nd and 3rd jobs to have a nice collection, i’m all for it.

Nope not just to buy pinballs... But, that is some of the perks. And the jobs I really enjoy. And still have plenty of time for my friends and family.

Brian

Some have asked "why didn't DP ask EAs to pay the difference years ago?"

ARA being made whole by unloading these at 12k each is your answer. "Yeah, Um, that 8500 game you bought? Yeah gonna need another 12k to get it shipped"

Nobody woukd have accepted that. Now consider the "new money" buyers who snapped these up. Yeah its still more than the original price but only 4k more not 12k more.

Remember it's not just EAs I heard they sold about 250 of these things. Maybe if Phil hadn't rage refunded all that money they would have gotten a little further but still nowhere near the finish line.

Ben, do you think DP/Barry will ever get this game back into production?

No.

Do you think CT will give me a 2000$ discount for of the down-payment i made and lost to Heighway for Alien?

PM invitation accepted.

That many? That's a lot of $$. Wonder how many were fully paid.

Last numbers were about 185 fully paid at $8500. Only about 50 got the machines

I'm not arguing with him, I merely state that having 40 more machines out there is a good thing not a bad one. So some points are shread those games and have a boycott that is really stupid comment. Yeah lets get everyone on pinside to have a boycott, but guess what those games are still getting sold. As I pointed out Coin Taker is doing a solid to all the previous customers, good for them! You should be happy someone is looking out for those people best they can, but its true not everyone can afford 12,500 dollars. What is that a misstatement? Tell me why is some people offering those games prior to this for even more... should we boycott those people? This is all super silly. Secondly the value of my collection has nothing to do with how much money I might have or how much I don't. I bought a lot of games not for my 50 million dollar mansion, which was my point. I have escape rooms where we have 14 games on site for people to play while they wait. We only charge 50 cents a game, do you know how long it will take me to get my money back on these games? Try I'll be dead first. I also own a haunted house and inside the exit we have another 14 horror themed games on display again 50 cents. I think you missed the point totally with your ridiculous comments... maybe some people like me just maybe will buy it and put it out there for others to enjoy!!!! That was the only point!

Here is what I know, as I pointed out this is out of your hands, this was a court ruling. What happened before doesn't matter anymore. This is part of the business World we live in and unfortunately sometimes its very unfair. Do I feel bad for people who lost some money on this game, or Magic Girl or the countless other start up machines? Oh yes I do but what does that have to do with Coin Taker doing the best they can to put those people first. Nothing. Not one damn thing. Fact is people calling for boycotts, that is ridiculous totally and utterly. Some people think with passion first, rather than common sense that is a simple fact.

Ok, that blows my theory out of the water. No way these last 40 would sell for enough to cover all DP liabilities.

The one thing I've learned about pinside is very few and I mean very few people on this website seldom if ever know facts. Lets go with everyone including all the podcasts seldom have facts. Heck Kanda said he was 110% positive CG was producing Aliens, and they're not. CG can't even ship out Monster Bash's much less take on Aliens. I'm not saying every statement is wrong, but I would say about 80% of the rumors, that people spread as facts are WRONG!

Does this guy have a copy of lawsuits, order forms, does he actually know how many people paid in full based on some documentation or just something he read somewhere that was also probably wrong. Fact is this website is filled with so much Fake News it makes CNN look like the most reliable source of information again. LOL

I wouldn't believe even 20% of the stuff people post on here, when they say something is a fact they mean opinion!

Don't believe them without hard documentation.

This website is at its best when they're helping other people with problems about their games, and not delving into fake news, slandering companies, and worse.

This is why someone, anyone, just making this game again makes no sense to me. You either fuck everyone who was invested already, and the shit storm and probably lawsuits that brings. Or you start off some million dollars, give or take, in the hole. Which is a not awesome way to start making a product.

I'm no crystal ball reader, but the future of TBL seems over to me, this is it, move on.

Agreed

Wrong! The game is awesome despite all the legal issues that came before. People want the game, hence why we've seen some people trying to sell their games for close to 20k. I couldn't believe when I heard Stern was trying to sell Beatles for 25k that seemed totally crazy, but who are we to judge how someone else spends what they make, even though Pinside does it daily.

If Big Lebowski goes back into production there will be a line out of the door to buy it because the game is good. If Black Knight goes out of production I doubt anyone will care because the game is not filled with amazing shots, lower playfields, upper playfields, amazing artwork and most importantly based on the #1 rated Cult Classic of ALL TIME!

Look at any list BL is rated the #1 Cult Classic of all time, this coupled with the fact that the game is awesome is why people will be lined up to buy it.

Here is a reality check for the passion based closed minded people around here... when don't you get reality here? How many start up pinball companies have failed and failed like a two trains colliding? Don't blame those companies blame yourself for buying into something that is not proven. The stock market is the same way you take risks every time you invest in a new company, you took the risk. Blame yourself!

A better plan is WHEN YOU HAVE MY GAME READY TO SHIP I'll give you a CREDIT CARD! Why? Because when they don't ship you have some recourse ... is that to hard to understand?

Why do so many people hammer at JJP, they're doing everything they say they will do, and so does Stern, and even if Spooky is slow, or Chicago Gaming is slow, they still deliver. Order from those guys until a new company can prove themselves. That is just business 101!

Buyers should take some blame for trusting people with NO TRACK record. Use a Credit card so you have recourse. End of story. I can tell you this situation isn't unique to pinball not even close. Every single industry has these problems, where people get burned, and I see people all the time say I'm not putting my hand over an open flame again. They order from companies they trust, or they use a credit card. Pinball people need to stop getting excited about a new start up company, wanting to be first in line, and lay down a bunch of money, without knowing without any doubt this company can deliver on their promises. I think people have good intentions but they learn the hard way they are in over their head. This isn't unique this is just business.

Coin Taker deserves a lot of credit for getting 40 more machines out into the pinball world for people to enjoy! Not scorn! This thread is ridiculous!

If by "sold", you mean paid in full, that hasn't been my understanding. 250 would include those who paid refundable ($1,000) deposits to CoinTaker or Nitro.

My understanding as well, except some of the later EA's apparently paid $9,500.