Lol if any of us scumbags get one you will be first to know...

I’m fine with it. I’ll be purchasing in the AM. If only 2 games in pinball existed. I’d be okay with just alien and TBL.

Man if you were to get one I want to be the first to know so I can buy booze and food and come play it!

Every deep pocketed person who preordered from an unestablished company has a little accountability for their predicament.

I'm not saying what happened is right, but your anger is misplaced. You might really be upset with yourself.

Why should those who wanted the game but were more cautious with their money be the target of your anger?

It’s not hard dude. 40 games are being sold for 12.5k. Get in if you want to get in.

Presumably this 40 number is more than the number of pre orders cointaker had... so if you were a pre order customer they have games to offer to their buyers and they have their original deposit money still.

This is not “delivering your preorder” - these are games for sale at this price point.

Yes. I will judge people on their unethical deeds. No shame in that. Shame on the scum who will steal PAID GAMES from those who bought them already.

Way to deflect. Fact: these games were bought already. Fact: anyone who buys them is knowingly buying stolen goods.

Not that hard to figure out right? 38 games but still.....

Who is the major whiner? Can't see it? LOL

Any news on parts as part of the deal? Since the company can’t support the games at this point... what’s the backup plan for the inevitable DoA games you’ll have to face?

They’ll all break and explode. Karma.

Give it a fricken rest, get off your high horse holier than thou pulpit.

You aren’t stealing jack shit if you buy one of these games — ARA won the lawsuit, so essentially they can do whatever they want with the games. DP can’t afford to pay them — what exactly do you want to happen? The people that prepaid for these games don’t really own them because DP fucked up, ARA owns them. And soon other people (I mean scumbags) will. Would you prefer they sit locked in a warehouse forever or something?? There’s no other options, get over it. EAs are screwed again. It doesn’t make anyone a scumbag.

Unless u wanna bail DP out so EAs can get their games?? Then you can get back on your pulpit

I hope that my 12.5k tomorrow will help this all get back off the ground so all of you can eventually have one that wants one or was promised one. I won’t feel bad about it, I tried to do the same with Alien and it never come through. This time I hope it goes another way! Cointaker is the only reason we were even able to get this game or Alien. They do the entire pinball community a service and have skin in the game themselves. No shame should be placed on them imo. They are wonderful people who make our hobby better. Everyone can be mad at DP but atleast there is still hope now and let’s pray the money is used properly this time around.

Of course......should have known who the culprit was . LOL

Back to where it belongs. Trash can

The guy sold his "spot" and the buyer got F ed so stfu

Cool story bro.

True colors are on you.

The fact that you guys are soooo trusting that this will all happen legit & easy just shows me how naive this hobby continues to be.

We’ll see....

Are there any rugs available?

Just one, and it’s full of piss.

So if I'm reading this correctly ARA won a judgment and this is more of an asset liquidation.

If thats the case it sound like these were awarded to ARA in the judgment as settlement for unpaid debt.
That's not stealing a machine from anybody.

Thats like getting a divorce and your wife ends up with your pins and you calling the guy who buys them off her a thief.

Yup. Exactly. Doesn’t change the fact that there are people here who paid for those specific games, and now won’t get them. It’s dirty. Anyone who buys them will always know it was meant for someone else who never got a refund. I’d rather have a pinball machine without that cruel backstory.

This is a touchy subject, I have to say, I see this legally as a company, ARA, completed a project as contacted by Dutch Pinball. At some point the contractor, ARA was not made whole by Dutch Pinball. This then went in front of a judge with legal council on both sides involved. The judge, understand and presiding over this case felt that ARA was wronged in the matter and they were granted possession of this property. They intend to sell this property so that they, as the manufacturer can be made whole. That is their goal as a business and as terrible as anyone can make it sound, it's a business decision that has to be made.

My personal experience with Chris and Melissa, they are absolutely, 100% A 1 people. If Chris explains on here this is the only solution then I believe him as he has always been a man of his word with me and no doubt I would stand with him when he says there is an opportunity that games can potentially go into a more of production again.

I'm sure there is a cat and mouse game at play to a certain extent, however if this is the only option then some, myself included, may have lost our initial investment. Sorry for whomever lost their game, money, etc. Hard situation all around.

There are two paths;
1) Boycott these 40 and no one gets the games. They go in the garbage. DP goes bankrupt. 0% chance EAs will get what they paid for.
2) Sell these 40 at the inflated price, settle with ARA and there is something greater than zero chance EA games are built before the end of time.

That doesn't mean you are wrong in your prediction, but really it is the only possibility left for pre-paid folks.

I am curious how Cointaker is protecting itself from paying for a container of half-assembled, half-corroded, non functional games?

Hang on here, if I'm an Early Achiever and have already paid say $8,000, can I call COINTAKER, add another $4,500 to it and get my friggin pin already? I mean, that would make sense, right? We deserve it more than others who are putting down the entire $12,500. I know, I know...that's not how it works. Dammmmmmit....

Why $12.5K? What is so magical about this price point? Does that "settle all debts" between ARA and DP? Or is this some kind of "testing point" to see what people will pay for this game?

So EAs who put down the full asking price...do they pay an additional $4K and all is good....or do they have to shell out a full new $12.5K?? If the latter, damn ......$20.5K for a pinball machine. HFS.

No matter the viewpoint, what a circus. Man, this community is something else. $12.5K....for a box of lights, some solenoids, and a bowling alley.

Then again, $8K for a box of lights, some solenoids, 4 jiggly martians, and a flying saucer... so.....yep, no place for me to judge ; ).

Here is a thought from someone smarter about these things than myself. How does 1 man. Gain access to these 40 pins and ship them out all by himself? He has no staff. No employees, etc...

Anyone care to enlighten me? I’m on board to help but getting sorta spooked on the whole thing.

I don't really find the rationale of "if we don't sell them then someone else will in Europe" to be a reasonable justification. It's like saying "if we don't screw these guys over, then someone else will. We might as well make a little money on it." People keep talking about ARA like they're the only party that should be made whole. This whole thing just feels shady all over to me. Like I said I have no skin in the game and don't have any interest in buying one.

ARA is motivated to get them out of their building and get paid.

Financial risk is on the buyers end - they will be shipped to you. Cointaker is just passing them along, they are not unboxing them to check them (& don’t even think a little that there is any sort of warranty or spare parts). Buy at your own risk level. Hopefully, all turns out fine for the 40 units.

What risk Cointaker is taking on is their reputation here to either (as you see it): to make a few pennies in the deal OR serve the NA pinside market.

Personally I give them kudos, but if there is lots of issues, no good deed will go unpunished!

For the record I have nothing against Cointaker...they’ve been screwed left, right, up and down from sooooo many of these upstarts-gone-wrong.

You are missing the dubious middle path...

1.5 - the games get sold, ARA closes its settlement with DP... thus releasing Barry from their largest, native claim against them. Now Barry can fade into the shadows and retain his IP to sell or license to someone else as a revenue stream to recoup past losses.

I do think this “wash his hands...” approach by selling the existing games is the path that rights Barry the most. If he further pursues the future? That seems like the longer bet

I guess what I am really interested in is the mechanics of when the dollars are transferred from CT to DP. Will it be immediate to get the games moving? Will it be when the shipping manifest are delivered? Will it be after the container lands and can be inspected? CT is taking a financial risk selling a game with their name on the bill of sale. If a game goes missing, is delivered as a rat infested surprise , or just a cardboard box full of Dutch candy, the credit card backcharge will go to them. The transaction is between the game buyer and CT. I have to believe CT is taking all the right precautions, but it just seems that it could go bad in so many ways.

Helmets ON!

Run, run away fast, don't look back!

If you get a game, I can bet within a year it's a paperweight. When something breaks, where are you going to get a replacement part?? Major board dies?? Who's gonna fix it??

Not to mention the history of this machine is getting close to jpop territory. You'll be owning a machine as rarehero points out you may not really enjoy flipping unless your brain dead and have no morals.

Help out??? To liars and crooks get their operations back up and running??? Got lots of money to waste you might as well go to Vegas.

So there really was 40 machines, I had high doubts on that number. Yeah it a liquidation sale. Nothing more. And at liquidation sales I usually pay pennies on the dollar not more.

This is an outrageous post. Disgusting. I do not want to see any more posts from people questioning Jaaps illness or some of the other mean spirited posts I have been seeing. You have every right to be upset and angry and discuss that on Pinside but stop making things so personal and think before you post.

So sad news about Jaap.

And so sad that pinball enthusiasts manage to create such a great product, that people want, and then end up in so much trouble.

I understand people are upset, if they have paid money and not gotten a product promised to them. Anybody else, ease off, ok.

I see some mistakes made on behalf of DP. But I do not see much bad will, if any. They stroke a deal with ARA that was (much) worse than they thought it to be. Being in a vulnerable position, that halted everything. And spun a vicious circle of events. Unfortunetly.

What I’ve learned from last the alien community is that if people want to help and support each other instead of just being pissed off, parts can be re-engineered and created by this wonderful community to keep dead games alive. Will that happen with TBL? I dunno: but my heart definitely hopes that could happen...

My assumption - based on no information more than what's available here - is that the agreement that Barry says he has reached with ARA, is based specifically around the fact that ARA won the court case.

Namely that they were likely entitled to the value of assets they held of DP's up to the damages / costs awarded by the judge, but may have received legal advice that suggested the copyrighted parts & games would be very difficult to sell or reclaim value from. So their path to compensation would not be simple, given that trying to claim these costs from DP directly would result in the latter's bankrupty, dissolution, more costs and then potentially a fight with Universal to sell the assets.

If that is so, and there are cool heads, then the simplest way forward for ARA to claw some money back is to release the games built for DP to sell, and then take the proceeds, or some of them, and then a % going forward, depending on what the judge said they were entitled to.

Regarding further units. I would imagine that production in China is out of the question currently, given Trump's ongoing handbags-at-dawn with China, and the US still being the primary market. Also, Barry's still going to need to find financing (i.e. loans from banks / selling large stake in the company) for there to be future production, unless they're fronted money to begin by Xytech (quite unlikely) or ARA (very unlikely). So aside from the deal itself sounding like it's not signed and rubber stamped yet, people should probably hold their horses.

Very sorry for Jaap. Wish him the best. Though I do feel that Barry should have taken over the reigns quite some while ago, and not just due to health.

I am very sorry about Jaap and glad he is out of DP ownership. He shouldn't have to spend his last days on earth dealing with this bullshit. The bloodlust exhibited by some is shameful and ridiculous.

Reaching a settlement agreement with ARA makes sense. The games and parts are worth more to DP than anyone else on earth. It would be great to have some details on this.

Selling the pre-paid games is not unprecedented. Somewhat similar to what JJP did to dig themselves out of a hole. If I am remembering this correctly, I bought a WOZ from Automated and mine was delivered before many of the pre-paid guys. You could make the claim that I bought someones place in line and their machine would have to be made again. If something like this could save TBL and make people somewhat whole, I am not against it.

I would still like to see the ARA/DP court documents and am willing to help pay someone to retrieve those if Barry is not willing to share them. These will likely get out at some point and Barry would be smart to get ahead of it.

I would have a lot more confidence in this whole scheme if Barry was taking on a partner. Someone more fiscally responsible with more business experience and preferably 51% of the DP ownership. If this is just an extension of the Barry/DP show it does not give me a warm fuzzy at all. 40 machines x $12,500 = $500k a sort of magical number that sounds like a round settlement figure.

EA's that have not received our machines should still get together and make sure our interests are protected. Doesn't mean that we have to sue DP right away. But the knowledge that it could happen through an organized approach from an attorney would be helpful to us. "Trust me" is just not a prudent option for EA's given the history here.

Ok so they are releasing the games that have been sitting at $12,500.

Do we have enough interest to sell the next 100 games beyond that at $12,500 also?

What about the code? Any further development on this? To be honest, I thought the code was good when I played one years ago but I've heard from owners that it needs more?

I reached out to cointaker and would be a buyer at 12.5 on the current lot. Its gambling that they never get made again. Problem is cointaker is only doing wire transfer or check and I am not sitting on 12.5k. In other words no cc. I know I can quickly get the funds by selling a few from my collection, but don't want to risk selling games that are hard to get only for the 40 to sell out before I pay. So I am out.

If the game gets back into production? No way I'd pay 12.5. Not sure I'd pay 9. At that point its just another production game and I'd be more likely to sit and wait for a used one.

So coin taker confirms the rumors? Did they happen to say anything about alien?

Have you been reading this thread? As for alien I did not ask, nor care. Already own it.

Hmm, wire transfer/check only...yeah that clouds things a bit....

Well, I get that coin taker doesn't want fee's. On the flipside it knocks out a lot of buyers because 12.5 grand is not something many of us have sitting around. On the other hand couple no interest credit cards and a few pins to sell? Very doable.

Paying with a CC also gives you additional recourse if something goes wrong with a purchase. I don't think it is about the fees.

Lot of companies take cc when buying pins though. Cointaker has also been good about refunding deposits on this title already.

My guess is that if Cointaker takes your CC for a TBL and you later dispute the charge or want to return the machine or address any kind of issue through your card holder rights, it will be Cointaker that is on the hook.

They are wise not to expose themselves in that manner on behalf of DP.

It's just a guess though. Offer 3% above $12,500 to cover the fee and that will tell you. It's just another $375.

Oh yes, the community is great! with a get it fixed attitude, but.... It's not like you can just order replacement anything easily to fix. I think I remember hearing sunshine laudrymat has one sitting collecting dust cause it's broken.

So no fix will be easy, quick, or cheap.

Better hope someone like Doc Mac from galloping ghost buys one and then uses his 3D studios to work on repair parts for the community.
Of course the first 50 drop targets may cost 100$ a piece.

Yeah I still think it's a big gamble and not worth it, wanna have a good time with some friends playing a machine grab an oktoberfest. Help keep them in business not a company overseas that has a track record of issues.

I have debated it. The 375 doesn't bother me one bit tbh.

Yeah, I use CCs for my own protection, like most consumers. I'm not as likely to try and wire transfer 12.5k (if I had it sitting to send). If it is just about the fees, I'm like dung...I don't mind covering the fees. But if it is moreso for protection against DP, well...kind of hard to argue against their stance, tbh.

Pinball is hard.

The difference between Alien and TBL is there are some 100-200 Aliens out in the wild, as opposed to the handful of TBLs, so there's simply more scale to the resources.

Alien also has a team of people still around able to offer little bits of assistance where possible. It's probably much more finished code wise too for that matter, but I honestly have no idea what the state of TBL code really is anymore.

Still, it's proof that a lot of things are possible where there's desire and a will to solve problems.

Even at $12,500 the game might have issues and you own it !

Wait until it’s made again and save $$$
Get parts etc

It’s a pinball !