(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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There are 8786 posts in this topic. You are on page 176 of 176.
#8751 10 days ago

Huh? You’re claiming that the court is going to make DP destroy the existing games if it wins? Are you just making all of this up as you go?

Also, “funding Agents for development” isn’t a thing. The EAs are plain old customers that got stiffed.

#8752 10 days ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

I'm accepting bids on mine at anytime. The reserve is $8,500.

Seems like a fair price for your wishlist machine.

#8753 10 days ago
Quoted from alexanr1:

Seems like a fair price for your wishlist machine.

It’s a blackjack bet. You bet 8.500$ and get a 17.000$ machine or lose it all.

#8754 10 days ago
Quoted from adol75:

It’s a blackjack bet. You bet 8.500$ and get a 17.000$ machine or lose it all.

More like you bet $8.500 at the roulette wheel. It is exciting while the wheel spins but when it stops and the ball is caught, you’ve lost it all. Then you find out there was never even a .001 percent chance of winning. It’s a suckers bet - thanks for playing. You get nothing! You Lose! Good day Sir!

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#8755 9 days ago

check my math but 20% of fully paid pre-order games shipped? (40/200) it sucksfor a lot of folks, a total failure as a business... but not an outright scam either.

#8756 9 days ago

It ain’t over till the fat lady sings but it is difficult to stay optimistic

Last word on the judge whispers first half of May. Damned to our slow legal system

#8757 9 days ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Huh? You’re claiming that the court is going to make DP destroy the existing games if it wins? Are you just making all of this up as you go?
Also, “funding Agents for development” isn’t a thing. The EAs are plain old customers that got stiffed.

Read it again. My career was in Contract Manufacturing.
DP holds rights to Art? Can't pay to finish games? ARA can't sell finished games.
ARA wins rights to Art? They can sell finished games and produce more.
As far as EA claims? The squeaky wheel gets the grease. ALL legitimate claims must be considered in a legal proceeding. They have a legitimate claim. A large amount of "plain old customers" that get stiffed is a class-action.

Right now they are faceless, nameless entities to the Judge. Probably too late at this point.

#8758 9 days ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Read it again. My career was in Contract Manufacturing.
DP holds rights to Art? Can't pay to finish games? ARA can't sell finished games.
ARA wins rights to Art? They can sell finished games and produce more.
As far as EA claims? The squeaky wheel gets the grease. ALL legitimate claims must be considered in a legal proceeding. They have a legitimate claim. A large amount of "plain old customers" that get stiffed is a class-action.
Right now they are faceless, nameless entities to the Judge. Probably too late at this point.

I respect your career experience, but your legal analysis doesn't make any more sense on a second reading. When you say that "ALL legitimate claims must be considered in a legal proceeding" are you still talking about this contract case between ARA and DP? The problem is that the EAs probably don't have a "legitimate" claim to make in that context. In what world does the judge consider all of the collateral effects of a ruling on a contract claim, instead of just deciding what the words in the contract means and then deciding whether the parties (ARA and DP) did what they promised to do when they signed it? On Judge Judy maybe, but I doubt in the Netherlands. It would be pretty screwy if the judge said "DP, if I just looked at the contract you'd win, but because you're out of cash you're unlikely to make more games. So I'm going to give ARA the win even though they're the ones that broke the contract. Oh, and while I'm at it I'm also going to award APA your IP rights in the game."

Or do you really mean that the EAs should file their own lawsuit against DP to recover their lost payments? This would be logical enough, and there's even a thread discussing it. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/class-action-lawsuit
In the context of their own lawsuit the EAs' claims would be "legitimate." Likewise if DP went into bankruptcy. Just not in this contract case between ARA and DP.

#8759 9 days ago

I spoke to somebody this week who spoke 3 weeks ago with the director of ARA. This after the Kanada podcast, he wanted to see if it could be true. Now we know it wasn’t but he did learn the TBLs and parts are still there but the manufacturing line has been dismantled completely. Again shows ARA have no interest in starting up production again.

Even if ARA wins I am doubting they can sell the 40ish TBLs sitting there. Not only because of Universal studio but a pinball without the software where clearly the IP is with DP? Sounds useless to me.

#8760 9 days ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

When you say that "ALL legitimate claims must be considered in a legal proceeding" are you still talking about this contract case between ARA and DP?

I'll try and simplify based on a past dispute. Brand names used are not actual. Permatex sells rights to formula with Marketing assistance to Jones Adhesives for a new "Nascar Brand". Jones Contracts with Dupont to fill and package said sealants. Jones goes belly up after 6 Months and cannot pay. There is already 6 Million worth of time-sensitive adhesives ready to ship in Duponts warehouse.. Dupont sues Jones Adhesives for Manufacturing costs so the material can be released. Simple, right?
Jones is broke and cannot pay. Actual Claimants?
Permatex Not paid in full for rights whether Jones was successful or not (in contract)
Dupont Costs associated with Manufacturing
Graham Corrugated Cartons, small SFBs for tubes, dividers (all have original Art/Logo
Bills plastics Caps for tubes
Alcoa Aluminum tubes (all have original Art/Logo
Frisk pallet Shipping pallets
Handly Insurance Jones Adhesives Workers Comp and Employee Insurance

Jones Adhesives- all Utilities, Rent on their Building, Trucks, Employees pay and Benefits, etc.

So Dupont sues for one-time IP rights to all Proprietary Artwork, Designs, Engineering to sell this load of Jones Adhesives to recoup cost and LOSES. All of this Material goes into a dumpster.

Permatex/Dupont is granted judgment to liquidate all remaining assets of Jones with 60 % going to Attorney fees, 12% to Employees, 9% to all other Claimants and the rest to Permatex/Dupont.

The 2 Founders of Jones end up with all original Artwork, IP and Engineering/design blueprints except now they have a 11.5 million dollar lien against them if they ever try to use them again in a Commercial endeavor.

#8761 9 days ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I spoke to somebody this week who spoke 3 weeks ago with the director of ARA. This after the Kanada podcast, he wanted to see if it could be true. Now we know it wasn’t but he did learn the TBLs and parts are still there but the manufacturing line has been dismantled completely. Again shows ARA have no interest in starting up production again.
Even if ARA wins I am doubting they can sell the 40ish TBLs sitting there. Not only because of Universal studio but a pinball without the software where clearly the IP is with DP? Sounds useless to me.

Yikes--that sounds like really bad news...

#8762 9 days ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I spoke to somebody this week who spoke 3 weeks ago with the director of ARA. This after the Kanada podcast, he wanted to see if it could be true. Now we know it wasn’t but he did learn the TBLs and parts are still there but the manufacturing line has been dismantled completely. Again shows ARA have no interest in starting up production again.
Even if ARA wins I am doubting they can sell the 40ish TBLs sitting there. Not only because of Universal studio but a pinball without the software where clearly the IP is with DP? Sounds useless to me.

Give me 2 people and 8 hours and I can set up a line, pneumatics, power, lights its already there. Couple of lift tables, tools, and production tables, all on wheels.

Those "40ish" TBLs along with the agreed upon projected amount to be produced in the original Contract are covered/Grandfathered till completion. A new agreement would be required once this amount was reached.

The software and rights to sell the machine are the major source of contention. The machines are viable assets. Without ARA owning the rights, they are mechanical scrap.

#8763 9 days ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Give me 2 people and 8 hours and I can set up a line, pneumatics, power, lights its already there. Couple of lift tables, tools, and production tables, all on wheels.

Damn MacGyver. Where were you 4 years ago?
Let's grab some of that DuPont adhesive and get cracking.

#8764 9 days ago
Quoted from highdef:

Damn MacGyver. Where were you 4 years ago?
Let's grab some of that DuPont adhesive and get cracking.

Just in time (JIT) Manufacturing procedures were implemented in the early 90's and are still used Globally.

Time for me to back away (again). I still feel like one day I will own one of these machines, or a like copy. Until then enough has been said.

#8765 9 days ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Give me 2 people and 8 hours and I can set up a line

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#8766 9 days ago

Can somebody bootleg the translite?
Like one to frame

#8767 9 days ago

I have a Translite & TBL Playfield Set that I may be letting go of.

I think that you make a TBL up, all hardware on PF is Williams type.

The circuit boards - maybe Xytech will make the new type if we ask and My brother in law has a big metal manufacturing business in the family so could get. Bowling mech? Subway etc done..

This is if DP would give the EAs the CADs/ schematics.... who knows

10
#8768 8 days ago

Rensh - no offense meant, but things you say about this issue cannot be taken seriously because of your friendship with Barry and the inherent conflict of interest. Heck, you might even be Barry or Barry's mom for all I know.

DP doesn't need an apologist and defender on these forums, they need to give clients information and respect. What DP has done is not defensible to anyone with clear vision. And please miss me with any "But ARA...." argument because that is on DP too - both the initial problems with ARA and how they navigated that problem.

IMO DP is negotiating only for themselves, as is ARA. Should the EA's band together, sue DP, and look out for our interests? Yes, I think we should. Is it worth the cost of the suit? Who knows.

#8769 8 days ago
Quoted from RTR:

Rensh - no offense meant, but things you say about this issue cannot be taken seriously because of your friendship with Barry and the inherent conflict of interest. Heck, you might even be Barry or Barry's mom for all I know.
DP doesn't need an apologist and defender on these forums, they need to give clients information and respect. What DP has done is not defensible to anyone with clear vision. And please miss me with any "But ARA...." argument because that is on DP too - both the initial problems with ARA and how they navigated that problem.
IMO DP is negotiating only for themselves, as is ARA. Should the EA's band together, sue DP, and look out for our interests? Yes, I think we should. Is it worth the cost of the suit? Who knows.

Given DP's complete LACK of any info or updates for months now, I do appreciate the sliver of info that Ren's posts sometimes provide. Even as unsatisfying and/or circumspect that that info can tend to be.

#8770 8 days ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Just in time (JIT) Manufacturing procedures were implemented in the early 90's and are still used Globally.
Time for me to back away (again). I still feel like one day I will own one of these machines, or a like copy. Until then enough has been said.

Neither DP nor ARA will make any more TBL and if believe they will, then you are delusional. And Early Achievers are already F’d up the ass.

Best case scenario - judge awards full rights to ARA, allowing them to sell hostage games and keep the money. So 40 built games hit the market before ARA leaves pinball manufacturing. This will be soon followed by DP declaring insolvency and choking off ongoing litigation. Life goes on.

2019 prediction *** with case resolved by mid-year, Xytec aka DP East, will purchase the license from ARA and begin manufacturing and selling perfect TBL, without offering customer support. But what do you expect for $15k? As I could see that happening, that makes me delusional too.

#8771 8 days ago
Quoted from RTR:

Rensh . Heck, you might even be Barry or Barry's mom for all I know.....

Am To ugly to be Barry or Barry’s mom

Anyway, several people on here, like Robin or Burningman, can testify that I am a real person.

And I do fully understand your statement as i would feel the same. I have always stated I am not only an EA but also a friend of Barry and Jaap so everybody could take this into consideration when reading my info. No hiding here. And yes, I try to keep people updated as much as I can with indeed 1sided info. This is all I have to offer.

#8772 8 days ago
Quoted from Rensh:

Am To ugly to be Barry or Barry’s mom
Anyway, several people on here, like Robin or Burningman, can testify that I am a real person.
And I do fully understand your statement as i would feel the same. I have always stated I am not only an EA but also a friend of Barry and Jaap so everybody could take this into consideration when reading my info. No hiding here. And yes, I try to keep people updated as much as I can with indeed 1sided info. This is all I have to offer.

And keep doing it, it's very much appreciated. Any kind of insight around what is going on, even small pieces is good to take, as I always say, as long as it's not dead it's alive !

16
#8773 8 days ago

Call me insane, but I would still take TBL over Wonka and Black Knight.

#8774 8 days ago
Quoted from highdef:

Call me insane, but I would still take TBL over Wonka and Black Knight.

So you have played them?

#8775 8 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

So you have played them?

No but I can explain. I'm a fan of early 90s B/W games. That's what I've owned and grew up playing. For me, TBL has been the only modern day game that replicates the nostalgia of that era. I think the art, music, theme integration, callouts, and layout on TBL blows away current games, but again, that's MY opinion because I'm old-school like that. It is clearly evident DP was going for that same look and feel. Even when DP lost the rights to the original songs, they were still able to pull it off with the cover songs. Not only were they tasteful with the music, but they didn't go overboard with things like RGB lighting or filling the backglass LCD with nonsense.

TBL may be vaporware and DP may be terrible businessmen, but I will always give them respect and props for the game itself.

#8776 8 days ago
Quoted from highdef:

No but I can explain. I'm a fan of early 90s B/W games. That's what I've owned and grew up playing. For me, TBL has been the only modern day game that replicates the nostalgia of that era. I think the art, music, theme integration, callouts, and layout on TBL blows away current games, but again, that's MY opinion because I'm old-school like that. It is clearly evident DP was going for that same look and feel. Even when DP lost the rights to the original songs, they were still able to pull it off with the cover songs. Not only were they tasteful with the music, but they didn't go overboard with things like RGB lighting or filling the backglass LCD with nonsense.
TBL may be vaporware and DP may be terrible businessmen, but I will always give them respect and props for the game itself.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I just cannot understand how people can judge a game based on a short video though. Isn't pinball about interaction, sights, sounds and oh yes, game play? Would you buy a car based off a short vid, probably not

#8777 8 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I just cannot understand how people can judge a game based on a short video though. Isn't pinball about interaction, sights, sounds and oh yes, game play? Would you buy a car based off a short vid, probably not

I’m one of the few lucky people who have a TBL. I totally agree with roostking

#8778 8 days ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I spoke to somebody this week who spoke 3 weeks ago with the director of ARA. This after the Kanada podcast, he wanted to see if it could be true. Now we know it wasn’t but he did learn the TBLs and parts are still there but the manufacturing line has been dismantled completely. Again shows ARA have no interest in starting up production again.
Even if ARA wins I am doubting they can sell the 40ish TBLs sitting there. Not only because of Universal studio but a pinball without the software where clearly the IP is with DP? Sounds useless to me.

I'd like to take on that challenge. Sell me one of those 40 "useless" machines without software

#8779 7 days ago
Quoted from highdef:

Call me insane, but I would still take TBL over Wonka and Black Knight.

Me too and by far ! I’ve put a lot of coins in TBL and it’s not just a great game to play, it’s also a hilarious one and the best theme integration I have ever seen.

It makes me regret even more that DP didn’t deliver after such an incredible design work.

#8780 7 days ago

I've got an order in for a Wonka CE, and I'd do an even swap right now, if it meant I could get a functional TBL AND there be parts to fix it with, down the road. It's one of the better looking machines I've seen, and it sucks that it is stuck in the position it is.

#8781 7 days ago

I still believe that this will be made again it’s just to good not to !

Praying to the pinball gods!

#8782 7 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

I just cannot understand how people can judge a game based on a short video though. Isn't pinball about interaction, sights, sounds and oh yes, game play? Would you buy a car based off a short vid, probably not

I feel you Roost, but I can't lie. I put down on TBL without playing it. I wouldn't have done it if it hadn't been for all these meddling Early Achievers <said in my "Scooby Doo amusement park owner voice">. I was so blown away by the pics and videos posted here when Expo '14 was happening.

In all fairness, I did fly to Chicago the following year to play the game before final deposits were due. I watched Rensh's videos from DPO '15 many times. What's not to like?
Of course, here we are 3.5 years later and most of us don't have the game we all wanted so badly.
Would I do it again? Most likely not. I do agree that you should play the game in order to know whether you like it, but I don't need to flip Wonka or Black Knight to know if they hold up to TBL. I'd personally take The Dude callouts and "Oye Como Va" over those games any day. Again, just my opinion and I've owned Lawlor and Ritchie games. TBL is the game that got me back into the hobby after a 7-year hiatus, so I have DP to be thankful for it.

Even though this TBL is currently lost in space, I would still own it in a heartbeat. I see it as a statement piece. Nothing against Stern or JJP -- they're actually shipping games!

#8783 5 days ago
Quoted from highdef:

I feel you Roost, but I can't lie. I put down on TBL without playing it. I wouldn't have done it if it hadn't been for all these meddling Early Achievers &lt;said in my "Scooby Doo amusement park owner voice"&gt;. I was so blown away by the pics and videos posted here when Expo '14 was happening.
In all fairness, I did fly to Chicago the following year to play the game before final deposits were due. I watched Rensh's videos from DPO '15 many times. What's not to like?
Of course, here we are 3.5 years later and most of us don't have the game we all wanted so badly.
Would I do it again? Most likely not. I do agree that you should play the game in order to know whether you like it, but I don't need to flip Wonka or Black Knight to know if they hold up to TBL. I'd personally take The Dude callouts and "Oye Como Va" over those games any day. Again, just my opinion and I've owned Lawlor and Ritchie games. TBL is the game that got me back into the hobby after a 7-year hiatus, so I have DP to be thankful for it.
Even though this TBL is currently lost in space, I would still own it in a heartbeat. I see it as a statement piece. Nothing against Stern or JJP -- they're actually shipping games!

Another quality post. I am not knocking TBL at all. Would I want JJP or Stern to have this license, nope! DP did it perfectly, except the business side. Its a shame and I like your "Statement game!" as it is quite impressive. I had a sold game for them, but I had to caution my buddy against a pre-order... He wants to buy me a huge steak now lol. Anyway, I hope to play or own a TBL someday, after EA's are made whole..

#8784 5 days ago
Quoted from highdef:

I feel you Roost, but I can't lie. I put down on TBL without playing it. I wouldn't have done it if it hadn't been for all these meddling Early Achievers &lt;said in my "Scooby Doo amusement park owner voice"&gt;. I was so blown away by the pics and videos posted here when Expo '14 was happening.
In all fairness, I did fly to Chicago the following year to play the game before final deposits were due. I watched Rensh's videos from DPO '15 many times. What's not to like?
Of course, here we are 3.5 years later and most of us don't have the game we all wanted so badly.
Would I do it again? Most likely not. I do agree that you should play the game in order to know whether you like it, but I don't need to flip Wonka or Black Knight to know if they hold up to TBL. I'd personally take The Dude callouts and "Oye Como Va" over those games any day. Again, just my opinion and I've owned Lawlor and Ritchie games. TBL is the game that got me back into the hobby after a 7-year hiatus, so I have DP to be thankful for it.
Even though this TBL is currently lost in space, I would still own it in a heartbeat. I see it as a statement piece. Nothing against Stern or JJP -- they're actually shipping games!

And to be fair, I bought my first and only pin, new or otherwise, without even seeing it. METLE #199. I'm kinda a fan lol, so take my posts with a grain of salt!!

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#8785 4 days ago
Quoted from Rensh:

And yes, I try to keep people updated as much as I can with indeed 1sided info. This is all I have to offer.

This was my only point.

#8786 8 hours ago
Quoted from Roostking:

And to be fair, I bought my first and only pin, new or otherwise, without even seeing it. METLE #199. I'm kinda a fan lol, so take my posts with a grain of salt!!
[quoted image]

Good choice and love the Off-Road next to it. I wouldn't mind a MET Roadcase!

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