LOL... these guys don't miss many opportunities to pat themselves on the back. All that has happened, and still about the same ego as at that first expo.

so sounds like the court said "I'm going to hold off on a final verdict to give you guys one last chance to figure something out and I really want you to do so", if they have not been able to come to an agreement before now, not sure how they now will, but, I guess you never know. If they can't someone is going to lose, so hopefully they will be motivated with the clock ticking to find a win-win.

Hopefully whatever the outcome leads to these machines getting made.

Come on Josh! You got pull. Doesn't API want a home run with some baggage? You guys would hit this out of the Park!!! Granted you can't really do worse then DP lol.

Wow, who knew the Dutch Legal system has all the sophistication and wherewithal of a parent trying to calm down two squabbling toddlers. How much longer are people going to pretend this isn’t over? Dutch Pinball may simply need to be taken down by force if the won’t admit it themselves and won’t share ANY facts. If they were in the USA the savvy pinside members would have already found a way to unearth records and details to expose this charade and take it down. It’s like somehow they have a smokescreen or level of protection by existing where they do. Clearly there legal system is incapable of efficient process, critical thinking or decisiveness. How have they convinced all of the people screwed over that there is actually a way out and not to join and pursue legal action? The continuation of this nonsense is about as much the fault of the victimized customers as it it DP themselves at this point.

I'd still like to own a Lebowski. In a hypothetical scenario where AP built it, I'd even be ok with dropping the lower playfield as a cost cutting and create some sort of bowling video mode to replace it.

We are open to talking with anyone who wants to get a game built, but often the logistics and economics don't make sense. Often the amount of engineering required to get a game to production is far greater than folks think and games are not nearly as ready to be manufactured as the creator believes. The level of detail and precision is far greater than most imagine and was a bit of an eye opener for me having gone from custom game making to commercial (I think Scott D would say the same). This engineering and software development effort can translate to a game not being worth what the creator thinks, especially if they want us to fund it and take all the risk. Now TBL is likely further along in that regard than most projects, but, hard to know for sure, given the twisting, turning path it has been on, and what work ARA did and who owns that, etc.

Regardless, I'm not sure anyone would have a serious conversation with Jaap and Barry until the legal process runs its course. I'm a big fan of the movie and impressed with what they have done, and would be happy to work with them (and Koen) if that was to come about. But as a betting man, I would not be putting money on us doing it.

Sooo what you're saying as for forum rumor is that API is considering it? Lol Just kidding but you guys really would have hit this out of the park and beyond.

As the case wasn’t resolved by the judge and him suggesting the parties make a deal, that indicates this case isn’t a slam dunk for DP as they’ve suggested. Without a hint from the judge as to who is right, they probably both are partially wrong. They’ve tried working this out before and I don’t expect them to come off their own position or to compromise when each feels they are in the right.

Also DP owes ARA for 50 delivered games plus 40 prebuilt games in warehouse. So 90 games x $5.5k is $500k that DP owes AND we know they don’t have anywhere near that amount. The only solution for ARA to be paid is for DP to agree to sell them to new buyers. Sell 40 games at 12.5k equals $500k and pay ARA for balance due and they will be made whole. Early Achievers won’t receive anything and 40 more games would hit the market and then no more will be made.

ARA will be unwilling to continue working with DP to build more pins because of all the nonsense DP created. As for settling charges from the lawsuit by both parties and damages to to both companies, the judge may consider that to be an even swap of costs ruling each party to absorb what they’ve expended to date.

Also Universal will be unwilling to work with ARA or their successor because of all the nonsense that has gone on. Further the license will be expired and that might complicate the ability to resell the 40 games, hopefully not. As for whom provides customer service on the 90 pins already produced, that would fall to DP. But with no money and no future stream of money, it will be minimal to none.

Barry and Jaap should have been honest in the newsletter by adding language, even if we prevail in the lawsuit, we will not be able to give games to the EAs who paid in full nor refund deposits for those partially in. That way people could still root for the company to close down in an orderly fashion, to offer 40 more games to the world and to provide technical support on games made. It is not a feel good story but it would allow the current story to end better than it istands now.

We don't know this.

We don't know this.

We don't know this.

We don't know this.

In DP's defense, I don't recall them ever suggesting the case would be a slam dunk for them. To the contrary, although they have always contended that ARA is at fault, DP has stated that they were reluctant to initiate any legal action against ARA based on discussions with their attorney. Supposedly, this was because of the risk of losing the case as well as the required legal costs.

Given that ARA ended up suing DP, it can be argued in retrospect, that DP should have taken ARA to court first rather than spending money on trying to set up new manufacturing in China.

I haven't read the whole thread but here's a solution. Stern buys the rights and the 40 games from ARA for $300,000. I'd figure this is far cheaper than designing a game from scratch. DP comes up with $100,000 to pay ARA (if they're out of money this might be tough but it's only $100,000). ARA takes a $100,000 hit (cost of doing business). This would be Stern being very generous but they could do an earn out with both companies of $100 to both companies for every unit sold. That way both companies are made whole if Stern could deliver 1,000 machines. EA, get the right to purchase a machine at a discount of employee pricing plus 15% but that's way down the road (I'm talking at least a year). This offer couldn't be made right away due to them reselling the machine and cutting into Stern's profit (again this would be Stern being extremely nice). But the pinball community could then stop blasting them because I'd assume this would be amazing press. Thoughts????

For any deal like this to work, someone will have to face all the EA’s. This wasn’t crowd funding nor investing. Some company will have to assume the debt for any sale to take place.

I have a "solution" too. Jeff Bezos buys out DP, pays off ARA, and the Early Achievers (including me), who all supported and financed TBL's design and production, finally get our games. The end.

I'm proposing this based on having read every post in this thread since day one.

Why would one assume debts in an Asset Sale? This wouldn't be true if it were a stock sale but this wouldn't be useful in this scenario.

Would be true Ian asset sale

No one HAS to face the EA's. The EA's cant even be inspired to stand up for themselves and FACE DP with a lawsuit to clear this ridiculous log-jam of lies, delays and avoidance by DP.

If this thing ever gets settled between ARA and DP, guess what...the EA's are merely collateral damage and get nothing. Until they stand up for whats right and what's theirs, they are not even involved in the discussion. DP has somehow masterfully continued to string them along and kept them huddled around a dim candle of hope. If someone actually exposed the facts I suspect the EA's would not remain so docile and patient...with Zidware, Skit-B, Heighway, all the truth came out and the Band-Aid was ripped off...its long overdue for that to happen here.

Where are the internet sleuths who exposed Heighway, Zidware and the rest?

I'm going to take the high road in my response and simply say on behalf of all EA's, that we wish it was this simple. Paying legal costs to go after a company with no assets in a foreign country quickly loses its upside in reality. On the other hand, It's easy to stand on the sidelines and say "Lawyer up!" as so many Monday morning QBs before you have.

Totally understand that but lets be honest here - DP has broke the law. They have taken your money and many others and squandered it and not delivered the product you are contractually owed. There is no "grey area" here. Its pretty friggin clear. They have committed fraud. Period. They fraudulently obtained your money and you have a slam dunk case against them. Frankly the case of the EA's vs DP is even stronger and more slam dunk than whatever ARA's suit suggests!

I know nothing of the Dutch legal system but any legal system in any developed and civilized country must have a way to file a complaint without a major heavy lift or heavy expense. Filing a complaint (or whatever they call it in their system) would initiate a process and FORCE DP to have to start to come clean here. Why do you think ARA sued them? They had to force their hand. Is there not some method in their legal system where you can file a complaint and get a judge to issue a subpoena for documents and/or in person appearance? To simply get that far can't be that much an expense. Especially when hundreds of thousands of dollars have been STOLEN. This is so black and white in terms of the EA's being victimized here there should be absolutely no objection.

No - it's not that black and white.

And the rest of your post suggests you really need to go and get caught up on where things are... vs throw around absolutes as the noob to the situation.

Ok so enlighten us. It might help to get other points of view and bring in other resources to the cause but go ahead and enlighten us. How is it not that simple? They purported to have a product ready for manufacture and delivery and accepted payments from hundreds of folks in full for said product. They engaged in a written legally binding contract with you to provide that product at a date in the future from time of payment in lieu of providing the product on the spot. They - for a variety of circumstances that really don't matter in the end - have not provided you the product nor have they provided a refund. Lets look at the textbook definition of Fraud.

"wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain."

They may chose to argue that this wasn't deception but that is a very weak position... the facts show how they repeatedly erroneously spent money, LIED TO YOUR FACE REPEATEDLY TO HIDE FACTS, and ultimately didn't even pay their vendors. it seems your case is far stronger than theirs...

Good grief, another wannabe Pinside lawyer. - Tell us where you got your law degree counselor. Was it from television or a bar stool?

I'm not a lawyer, but as a business owner in France, I had to deal with many lawsuits. On the few occasions where we got sent by court to mediation following a long justice instruction process, it was because our positions were not that far, so an agreement could be worked on, and a court decision would have damaged both of the parties more than a bad agreement. Also one can't disregard that the EA would be the first victims there.

So my hope is that this is why the court sent them to mediation, and that it can be resolved, I really love this game and would definitely buy one (at 10k not 25!)

I'm not wasting my time repeating stuff that you could simply go back and learn for yourself.

They didn't take money fraudulently
They failed to deliver... and that alone does not make it fraud
You'd have go through all the actions - which again - are not black and white.

If you want a slam dunk on paper.. look at Skit-B... that should be a slam dunk, yet that is domestic (vs international) and even that didn't get anyone off the pot to file fraud charges.

I can't believe it's been over 4 years since the Chicago Expo Penthouse party where everyone was just on such an excitement and high over this game...Steve Ritchie was playing it & some Stern lackey was blocking people from taking his picture, I brought Brian Eddy up to the party to check out the game, Bangerjay was drunk AF and grabbed my head from behind causing me to spill drinks on people, a bunch of us locked ourselves in a room to escape the drunks and as time flew, we were the last ones left & finally closed out the party at like 4am.....ahhh...to better times.

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@dkjimbo's legal analysis definitely smells like "stool" of some variety ...

Good point. And before Dkjimbo pulls a hamstring kicking the buyers while they're down, let's remember that at least in the States only the prosecutor has the power to file fraud charges.

.

Haven't read the thread in 6 months, ug, no change. Poopy!

Any one see the teaser on Jeff bridges Twitter? Can we post a link?

Nice one, Ted

https://www.maxim.com/entertainment/jeff-bridges-teased-new-big-lebowski-2019-1

No way! Are they going to be announcing TBL back in production during the Super Bowl!? Just kidding but I am looking forward to whatever is going to be shown even if its just a crummy commerical with The Dude.

looks like another 6 months of nothing.

<cough>

giphy.gif

I think there was movie about "the Jesus/Turturro" as a prequel or something on the way a year ago or so , anyone know what happened to that ?

If it is a new movie one of the lucky EA's should loan their TBL so it can be used when they shoot in the bowling alley.

I don't know why but I have a gut feeling that this title will be made again. Way too many people that want to buy it-and the development is 95% done(needs polished code). I want one but not going to spend $20K plus and run the risk of it being made again or one of the proprietary boards taking a shit and being stuck with a paper weight like Magic Girl.

Time will tell-but my gut is talking to me(or maybe I am just hungry and it is my stomach growling) and telling me-it will be made again.

Welcome back.

And look how well that has turned out, out of a game and lawyer fees. Unless you are rich, throwing good money after bad is not a good ide?

i hope you are right. there is a shit ton of money left on the table for anyone who can unravel this mess and get it going. The game is 100% done as far as R+D/mechanics/testing?etc.. The code is already a blast and some minor polish would go a long way. DP shit the bed in a colossal way and seemingly have no positive way out. Sadly there are virtually no scenarios where the EA's get taken care of here short of a Deeproot-style "olive branch" but for anyone still interested in buying this game, any company with manufacturing capacity (I'm looking at you spooky, american pinball, deeproot) who is willing to work through all the red tape of the license and unraveling the ARA dispute could easily start back up production on these at 10k-12k and sell them like hotcakes. Again - this in all likelihood means the EA's get absolutely nothing unless the "angel manufacturer" was to offer something.

I had a deposit with Nitro for awhile and remain a day-one buyer if this gets back of the ground.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5974030/

Funny, I still have a deposit with Nitro for the game. I'm either really optimistic, absurdly patient or quit possibly catastrophically stupid. I guess time will tell as history will be my judge.

QSS

When the preorders for this game launched and they wanted 4 2K payments - with no completed game at the time - my spidey sense told me to hold off.

I am glad I didn’t get hosed, but sad this pin didn’t “make” as its still a favorite theme for me.

Hoping something good happens with this pin.

I have a TBL I got from another pinsider, but also still have a deposit with CT.

I have a Dutch Pinball t-shirt that I received after becoming an EA.

By far, the most expensive article of clothing that I own.

How much did you pay and how many times have you worn the shirt?