(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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#8051 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I am totally in agreement with this. We are finally in sync
But why was dP running out of money? The units were supposed to be built in 2015 by ARA !! Summer 2016 it still wasn’t done and 2 years running a company (1 Yr more as calculated at that moment) costs money and no new income was generated. And than ARA rose the price substantially which dP even agreed to IF they would make them all in 2016 plus 50 pcs BoP. These extra sales were needed to cover the losses caused by ARA in the first place. And guess what, in October 2016 it showed ARA hadn’t even ordered the parts for the BoP. So than DP terminated the new agreement. So much for reliable ARA. And remember, Ara had full access to the DP books. So they knew exactly in ewhich financial state DP was in when they promised delivery 2016 incl 50 pcs. BoP. They knew they had to make the extra units to cover the losses they caused but still didn’t do it. So their whining on we didn’t get paid was all their own doing !!
If I am accusing DP of anything is that they didn’t waterproof the contract against delayed deliveries. But must also admit that the behavior of ARA is unusual in Dutch business and certainly of a bigger company.

Why did it take so long? They had problems with the license, they could not get the music or images right, They had problems with the parts. Hard for ARA to build machines that were not ready to be built. DP did not have their shit together, leaving the contract manufacturer helpless. Remember they had to have Roger sharp come in and help with some of those things. Why would they order parts for BOP when they were not getting paid for what they did? I would not spend more money out of pocket if bills were not getting paid.

#8052 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I am totally in agreement with this. We are finally in sync
But why was dP running out of money? The units were supposed to be built in 2015 by ARA !! Summer 2016 it still wasn’t done and 2 years running a company (1 Yr more as calculated at that moment) costs money and no new income was generated. And than ARA rose the price substantially which dP even agreed to IF they would make them all in 2016 plus 50 pcs BoP. These extra sales were needed to cover the losses caused by ARA in the first place. And guess what, in October 2016 it showed ARA hadn’t even ordered the parts for the BoP. So than DP terminated the new agreement. So much for reliable ARA. And remember, Ara had full access to the DP books. So they knew exactly in ewhich financial state DP was in when they promised delivery 2016 incl 50 pcs. BoP. They knew they had to make the extra units to cover the losses they caused but still didn’t do it. So their whining on we didn’t get paid was all their own doing !!
If I am accusing DP of anything is that they didn’t waterproof the contract against delayed deliveries. But must also admit that the behavior of ARA is unusual in Dutch business and certainly of a bigger company.

Why have they not been built in 2015? Why ARA has raise the production price? When DP was supposed to pay ARA?
I can’t believe all these questions and others were not contractualized.

#8053 1 year ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

Why did it take so long? They had problems with the license, they could not get the music or images right, They had problems with the parts. Hard for ARA to build machines that were not ready to be built. DP did not have their shit together, leaving the contract manufacturer helpless. Remember they had to have Roger sharp come in and help with some of those things. Why would they order parts for BOP when they were not getting paid for what they did? I would not spend more money out of pocket if bills were not getting paid.

So the DP business is to get preorders money without knowing what could be the final product?

#8054 1 year ago

More speculation.

I know it’s hard when there is no communication from Dutch Pinball, imagination run wild, opinions and what we think we know becomes how it happened.

We don’t know what has happened. Only DP and ARA.

One thing we do know for sure is DP aren’t in a position to give refunds.. or they would have.
ARA & DP are in a pending lawsuit against each other. Both think they have a case or there wouldn’t be one.

The Seattle Seven- a group of people who want to see the game built and are trying to help Dutch Pinball have set up a GoFundMe page, but that has been met with negativity and comments of a scam.. why is something that is trying to help met with so much slagging off and negativity.

So tell me What do you guys want!

REFUNDS aren’t going to happen- So don’t bother with that.

BETTER COMMUNICATION-Won’t happen with lawsuit pending if you ask something that can be used against DP by ARA.

I’m asking all the EAs that don’t have their game what could they do/would they do to help this game get built..

#8055 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

More speculation.

The Seattle Seven- a group of people who want to see the game built and are trying to help Dutch Pinball have set up a GoFundMe page, but that has been met with negativity and comments of a scam.. why is something that is trying to help met with so much slagging off and negativity.

It's not hard to see why it's been met with the reception it has.

Huge, arbitrary and completely unrealistic donation goal. Total lack of information or plan, a likely illegal raffle, no disclosure of what exactly their involvement with DP is or has been - despite the latter apparently offering donation incentives. Nothing from DP either. A horribly ill-judged (& now removed) video that would at best displease the licensor; who must be sorely tempted to pull the license anyway.

If they're trying to help, they're not trying very hard. It's hopeless.

#8056 1 year ago

Congratulations on graduating, acceptance is the final stage of regret. Time to go outside for a smoke or to find some birthday cake to eat.

#8057 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Congratulations on graduating, acceptance is the final stage of regret. Time to go outside for a smoke or to find some birthday cake to eat.

The five stages of grief:

1)denial
2)anger
3)bargaining
4)depression <<<<
5)acceptance

I'd say current sentiment is somewhere between 3 and 4.

#8058 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

ARA has for sure no interest in assembling more machines. They will sell off the finished goods and parts and that’s it.

I don't know.
If they have all the parts to build complete machines, it makes no sense to not assemble them.
The market for selling just the parts is quite slim, as only so few pins were made. So why not invest like say 3k$ into assembling and sell NIB TBL's for 10k?

Sure, after all the stock is gone, that would be it and they never ever think about pinball again.

#8059 1 year ago

So if the raffle/donation structure was laid out better..?
The S7 have obtained items from DP for the raffle. The S7 are Pinsiders that are EA and want the game to succeed.

Rubberducks.. are you an EA? What about you Jeff?

#8060 1 year ago

Anyone know why the donor list is anonymous when this other garbage gofundme includes full names? Is it something the gofundme creator controls?

https://www.gofundme.com/gameseum

#8061 1 year ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

Anyone know why the donor list is anonymous when this other garbage gofundme includes full names? Is it something the gofundme creator control

No, the backers control if their name is shown or not.
I think nobody wants to admit that they sunk any more money into that scam hole, so that is why they all do it anonymous

#8062 1 year ago

I'm EA #181. Here is what I would like to see happen. DP needs to open up the weekly communications again. No Communication means we can only assume there is more bad news and just leads to more speculation. Why can't DP share more of their financial info? They just auctioned off a TBL pin and now a raffle for another. If they have extra pins why aren't these being offered to EA's who are still waiting? Even if a lawsuit has started, why can't they still produce pins (no explanation was given in their emails to EAs, I assume there was a cease and desist order, but maybe there are other reasons)? With no communication, I don't see any reason to give DP any money. We have no idea what happened to our preorder money and no idea where this gofundme money is going either. They don't have to share details about the case, but there is a lot of info they can share about and current DP company status.

#8063 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

ARA & DP are in a pending lawsuit against each other. Both think they have a case or there wouldn’t be one.

Not necessarily. In prior NSNL(s), DP stated that, based on legal advice received, they did not feel confident that pursuing legal action against ARA was worth the financial risk.

Quoted from Pinhead1982:

I’m asking all the EAs that don’t have their game what could they do/would they do to help this game get built.

Difficult to say when we don't have any known info to go on. As I've already posted, I'd be willing to consider paying more money beyond the $8,500 I've already invested if DP provides full financial disclosure and a viable business plan to manufacture games (such as an agreed upon and verified resolution with ARA for example). Short of that, it seems alternatives for EA's are limited to:

1. Hope for the best
2. Find a way to somehow get a refund from DP
3. Find a way to have financial interest represented in Dutch legal system (for whatever that is worth)

#8064 1 year ago
Quoted from el_duderino:

With no communication, I don't see any reason to give DP any money. We have no idea what happened to our preorder money and no idea where this gofundme money is going either.

Exactly. To quote another: "Like throwing money into a dumpster fire."

DP can blame ARA all they want, but without providing any more info than they have, they are their own worst enemy at this point. Lack of info leads to the reasonable assumption that the financial hole they've dug for themselves is so bad, they can't reveal it.

#8065 1 year ago

Thanks.
The game raffled was 1 of the TBL Prototypes from ARA I believe. I would imagine as the production manufacturer has changed, with different boards and 2 new prototypes with Xytech, that these are no longer needed and are being used to raise capital.

I know EAs want to be updated. This is DP biggest opportunity.

How do you think ARA found out about the new manufacturer, and that DP was going to start production. Then Lawsuit happens... it’s most likely from this forum.
If DP was to update EAs, do you think that ARA would not find out about it and use it to their advantage in the court case?

#8066 1 year ago

My next question is how many EAs are willing to put more $ into this.. those without games... and those with games or had games, would you put more in.

I know the first 50 EAs wouldn’t have to, and so would look at it as a collective as the first 50 wouldn’t have made it out without all of us putting $$ in. And the few that have sold for $20K+

This is a question for EAs, don’t really want anybody’s else’s opinion who is not IN or FULLY PAID on this game, although sure I’m going to get it!

I’m the guy who’s only name is on the GoFundMe.. others are not, maybe because they are part of S7, or DP or quite simply because they don’t want others to know through the email or txts ridiculing them from people WITH NO INVESTMENT in the game..

TWIP got an email saying to contact Universal about the issues.. this is people trying to get the license revoked, most likely so ARA win and then they can buy the game from them.

With quote from BallyPinball of ARA has already been offered $400K + for the games. This has proved that people have been contacting them with offers. Maybe that’s why they are trying to bankrupt DP.

#8067 1 year ago

Universal did not reply to TWIP

#8068 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

Thanks.
The game raffled was 1 of the TBL Prototypes from ARA I believe. I would imagine as the production manufacturer has changed, with different boards and 2 new prototypes with Xytech, that these are no longer needed and are being used to raise capital.
I know EAs want to be updated. This is DP biggest opportunity.
How do you think ARA found out about the new manufacturer, and that DP was going to start production. Then Lawsuit happens... it’s most likely from this forum.
If DP was to update EAs, do you think that ARA would not find out about it and use it to their advantage in the court case?

We do not know when the lawsuit was started. If could have been over a year ago. DP is not giving us the information. Considering their lies in the past. It would be hard to believe them anyway.

#8069 1 year ago
Quoted from Biv:

If they have all the parts to build complete machines, it makes no sense to not assemble them.
The market for selling just the parts is quite slim, as only so few pins were made. So why not invest like say 3k$ into assembling and sell NIB TBL's for 10k?
Sure, after all the stock is gone, that would be it and they never ever think about pinball again.

I don't know, warranty, support, processing, maintaining support/lab equipment, personal until warranty and support run out, I don't know.

You would have the same issue as the last batch of Aliens, you would be owning a product you bought new, with no recourse(except external). Is that they way you would want your company to look, without it?

#8070 1 year ago

Maybe that’s why they are trying to bankrupt DP.

Are they trying to bankrupt DP, Or just get paid for the parts they bought, produced, and the games they have made and not been paid for?

#8071 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

If DP was to update EAs, do you think that ARA would not find out about it and use it to their advantage in the court case?

That has been DP's fall back excuse all along. I don't know how valid this is, but I think that DP could have told us a lot more than they have w/o necessarily jeopardizing their case.

Quoted from Pinhead1982:

My next question is how many EAs are willing to put more $ into this.. those without games... and those with games or had games, would you put more in.

You already have my response to this. As EA #59, my TBL has supposedly been sitting, ready to ship, in ARA's factory for 21 months and counting now, but it might as well be on Mars given what I know from DP at this point.

#8072 1 year ago

Dutch law is slow.. from what I hear each side has at least 6 weeks to respond to the other. Imagine 12 weeks to get a reply to the question asked!

Quoted from foxtj24:

We do not know when the lawsuit was started. If could have been over a year ago. DP is not giving us the information. Considering their lies in the past. It would be hard to believe them anyway.

If it was a year ago, I don’t think DP would have spent money trying to find a new manufacturer, building prototypes and then saying we’re gearing up

#8073 1 year ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

Are they trying to bankrupt DP, Or just get paid for the parts they bought, produced, and the games they have made and not been paid for?

This I don’t know.. but if ARA weren’t paid for the games they made it parts bought I would think that they would have taken DP to court a long time ago as DP had money then.. and so ARA could have got € and it would have been an easy case I would think. But why a yr later? Now probably less money due to Xytech proto investment etc..

#8074 1 year ago

I would ask that all EAs- with numbers PM me with response to putting new € into this. Just to gage support and amount that could be raised.

Then go looking to speak with DP about proposal of cash injection and how it would be utilised, getting production going and getting the games.

#8075 1 year ago

I bet that most EAs would be willing to put up to maybe 4k € again....but only on delivery of a machine and not for some preorder/get-the-production-going stunt

#8076 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

This I don’t know.. but if ARA weren’t paid for the games they made it parts bought I would think that they would have taken DP to court a long time ago as DP had money then.. and so ARA could have got € and it would have been an easy case I would think. But why a yr later? Now probably less money due to Xytech proto investment etc..

DP did not have money then, That is why ARA never got paid. Jaap so much as admitted it.

#8077 1 year ago
Quoted from Biv:

I bet that most EAs would be willing to put up to maybe 4k € again....but only on delivery of a machine and not for some preorder/get-the-production-going stunt

Anther 50%. Hell no.

#8078 1 year ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

Anther 50%. Hell no.

Shoot me a PM

#8079 1 year ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

Anther 50%. Hell no.

May I ask why not?

So you are paid in full with 8k and now have the choice of:
- do nothing and flush these 8k down the toilet
- spend another 4k and get a TBL

Yes you would spend 12k for a pin, but the resale value of this machine would be most likely higher, even if they produce another 100-250 pcs.
Heck, I could even see EAs spend another 8k for a guaranteed pin, as even then it's at least a zero sum game. (of course only of you plan on selling it one day)

#8080 1 year ago

Did the Seattle Seven get pulled off Facebook? I was going to look and see how the Go Fund me effort was progressing and the Facebook page seems to be gone along with any mention of it in FB threads.. Odd.

#8081 1 year ago

They're back .... https://www.gofundme.com/seattle-seven Hi Barry and Jaap (Seattle 7)

Status #2 Jul 18 - 4 days since last update. Donations have hardly budged, increasing the pot to 1/750th of the way to goal. Still forecasting a shutdown of the gofundme by September.

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#8082 1 year ago
Quoted from Biv:

May I ask why not?
So you are paid in full with 8k and now have the choice of:
- do nothing and flush these 8k down the toilet
- spend another 4k and get a TBL
Yes you would spend 12k for a pin, but the resale value of this machine would be most likely higher, even if they produce another 100-250 pcs.
Heck, I could even see EAs spend another 8k for a guaranteed pin, as even then it's at least a zero sum game. (of course only of you plan on selling it one day)

I agreed to pay 8500. no more. unless they finish the code and provide support that is pushing the limit for me. If more are made the value will be what some one is willing to pay. If people could get them new for 10k, then 10k for a new one will be the value, deduct a little once it is opened.

#8083 1 year ago

Here is another just at worthy go fund me
https://www.gofundme.com/help-me-fix-this-bloody-hydrofoil

aaaaahahaha (resized).JPG
#8084 1 year ago

I would be willing to pay some new money to get my machine - as long as it goes to new owners of DP. Let me know when that happens.

#8085 1 year ago
Quoted from Biv:

I don't know.
If they have all the parts to build complete machines, it makes no sense to not assemble them.
The market for selling just the parts is quite slim, as only so few pins were made. So why not invest like say 3k$ into assembling and sell NIB TBL's for 10k?
Sure, after all the stock is gone, that would be it and they never ever think about pinball again.

Dude, just send me my parts. I can handle assembly.

#8086 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

His profile shows, "This account has been deactivated voluntarily by its owner".
No matter, I hope he did get his refund but I'm skeptical by his not returning emails and not helping others if he did.

I had many conversations with high def , i know the way he approached this and hence most likely got a refund , he is a very smart person , i wouldn't even no how to begin and he told me what he did , i was hoping he would let me know but it might be a condition of his refund to go silent , waiting for him to pm me but have not heard from him .....

#8087 1 year ago
Quoted from cyclone1234:

I had many conversations with high def , i know the way he approached this and hence most likely got a refund , he is a very smart person , i wouldn't even no how to begin and he told me what he did , i was hoping he would let me know but it might be a condition of his refund to go silent , waiting for him to pm me but have not heard from him .....

If so, he had a hell of a time going silent - not, apparently, out of a desire to help his fellow pinhead, but out of a need to illustrate what a dildo the K-man is. Which we all knew already without a seven paragraph post that brought nothing new to the table other than a general statement that he got his money back and wouldn’t be sharing his methods with the rest of the community.

#8088 1 year ago

Someone should contact the same attorney that did the class action suit against JPOP.

#8089 1 year ago

Campaign "complete" at $750. Huzzah!

https://www.gofundme.com/seattle-seven

#8090 1 year ago

Well the go fund me is now closed. I hope the $750 it raised buys Jaap and Barry a nice dinner at least.

7scam (resized).JPG

#8091 1 year ago

Awesome!... Wait!, What?

#8092 1 year ago

Maybe they can afford this guy?

#8093 1 year ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

Well the go fund me is now closed. I hope the $750 it raised buys Jaap and Barry a nice dinner at least.

Great odds (25 prizes for 11 donors) for all the people who donated to win a car and/or translite. Well planned.

#8094 1 year ago
Quoted from LesManley:

Great odds (25 prizes for 11 donors) for all the people who donated to win a car and/or translite. Well planned.

Sh!t now I wish I would of donated

#8095 1 year ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Sh!t now I wish I would of donated

You had a "chance" to win one of those items. Who knows what the requirements were. Maybe every $20k donated would release one item for a drawing. I will be pleasantly surprised if the people who donated receive anything.

#8096 1 year ago
Quoted from RTR:

Dude, just send me my parts. I can handle assembly

Hmm, really? Did not know that US citizens are capable of handling the metrics screws required for that machine

You have access to another TBL that can be used as guide to assemble a new one? As I don't think there is any manual for the game that could be used.
Moreover, while I believe that maybe it's possibly to assemble all the physical parts without any official documentation, when it comes to cabling it gets hairy... (though TBL may not look that bad from far away, as many PCBs and few wires)

#8097 1 year ago

Valid points, but still ... an unassembled TBL beats a (proverbial) jar of vaseline.

Especially, an $8,500 one.

#8098 1 year ago
Quoted from kklank:

Someone should contact the same attorney that did the class action suit against JPOP.

Zane Smith, Esquire of Chicago is counsel for a group of Zidware customers. He successfully obtained a judgment on behalf of his clients. That lawsuit was not a "class action," which is a legal term of art, with a very specific meaning.

In any event, for USA pre-order customers, who dealt directly with DP, jurisdiction and other important issues regarding TBL will likely require consultation with overseas counsel. I imagine that the sales contract with Dutch Pinball designates the jurisdiction and law applicable to any dispute arising thereunder.

#8099 1 year ago

Think the GoFundMe was closed because of all the negativity..

OK.. so I have contacted Robin regarding a closed forum for EA only. No one else.

He was already working on this so over the next few days. All the EA interested in sorting the shit out let’s get together in this forum to discuss what we can do.

The way it works is that the OP adds who they want in the forum. Please could EAs send me their name and proof of being an EA.. maybe your True Serial Email..

6292C077-895E-4B05-9220-91A369C5EE58 (resized).png
#8100 1 year ago

The 'negativity' was due to their total lack of thought or planning.

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