Dude - You are in Fiji? Have a drink, send me the bill, and just chill!! This will all still be here when you get back, I promise!!

Over the line dude. Rensh has a much different opinion about things, perhaps influenced by his friendship with Barry, but I don't believe him to be dishonest or anything other than a nice guy.

Don't get distracted by the shiny lights. It doesn't matter who was right. The whole reason why -

1) first container of games wasn't paid
2) why $1k cost increase wasn't paid
3) 49/51 deal with ARA didn't work
4) why a restart deal with ARA didn't work
5) why litigation wasn't started by DP a year ago
6) why license renewal won't take place
6) why production by xytech won't commence

Dutch Pinball is out of money. Now that wasn't so hard to say.

Thanks, highly appreciated. We may disagree but respect each other. After all, does any of us really know the true things? I THINK I know it because of long talks with Barry.

It’s Malaysia by the way where I am staying. Just mentioned Fiji islands because there was a time once when a pinsider, forgot his name, continuous would state Jaap and Barry would run to Fiji after collecting all the money . Not the best of my Jokes I think now

Malaysia is good! Rensh Whereabouts? I spend a lot of time in Penang and Kuala Lumpur. Your location looked bit nicer!

Making a self made round trip. First did 5 days Borneo and now Perenthian islands. Than we go to Taman Negara, than Penang-Georgetown and than Langkawi. Than fly to Kuala Lumpur for a few last days there and than back to NL and the hard reality of work

Flight is most expensive part. Staying here is relative cheap against Europe or US. But no pinballs here. I think better, my wife would kill me if I would play pinball here ...

Bahaha, 500k. This is truly hiliarious.

JPOP could learn from this, he should start a go-fund-me page.

I think these machines (if DP is done and this is the last batch) will fetch even more no? They could easily sell for 10 - 15k a piece.

No sir as nobody has set anything up yet

whoever the lawyer is for the EA i am there $1000 for you guys to help, no problem, you guys helped us aussies back in the bumper action days, its the least i can do.

Tell me when and who and its there

So is anyone in this thread besides me a prospective buyer? Would you buy a TBL if they were available?

I'm starting to wonder, beyond the EAs that are owed games, just how much of a market is left for this game. Can they still sell hundreds to generate the profit they need?

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I realise that not everyone is happy with me for selling my TBL, but now that existing machines are selling for 20K, you better believe there is a market for them. If Chicago Coin remakes Big Bang Bar as rumored, those games will fly off the shelf to new buyers and there is a lot of similarities between the two.

While I'm pessimistic of Dutch Pinball's survival at this junction, these high prices could be used as a big selling point to attract investors or possibly motivate DP-ARA to settle.

Debatable

true.. there is nothing to be really sure of these days, to many stories has been told, what is true and which is not about this all nobody knows except ARA or DP knows. it might be time for DP to let them show the hole cards to get things straight and get some buyers faith for them back.. the full story and facts on paper will help. and this new cry out loud for help aka gofundme without an real plan or strategy for it won't help the case.

I just don't understand why Rensh keeps defending these guys and falling on the sword for them?? Friends don't let friends twist in the wind.

These recent high prices are a result of DP's demise and the scarcity of games.

There is no evidence that a large market exists for these games at $20k+.

Smells like down wind to me....

I had understood games were fully paid. So:
What is finally the cost price of this game?
What is usually the benefit per game that 1k charge more prevents to come into production or solve issue with ARA?
How DP made his balance business sheet?
Does DP know their multiplication tables?
Obviously, DP missed something.

The alleged 50 pins and remaining parts are the assets. Right now the EAs are nameless,faceless to the Judge. They are the rightful creditors as they paid for these machines. A Lawyer needs to represent them and get their claim officially in the Dutch Court.

While I can agree in general, I find that a surprising conclusion you've leapt to. (No offense).

DP has already priced additional TBL games at 10K through Cointaker if they can get their shit together. The psychology of buying a 20K machine for half price will have people lining up to buy.

I completely agree with your assessmentt regarding the psychology of a $10k price seeming like a discount. We're together on that.

I misunderstood your first comment about the $20k price. I thought you were suggesting there was a large demand at that price, which I don't believe is true.

The $20k+ prices were due to the scarcity and represent less supply, not necessarily more demand.

A lot of the initial start up money was used to develop the game, tweak machinery like bowling ally and ARA circuit boards I think.

The issue was that ARA increased the price once, DP agreed to the increase, with a price for the 300 machines and an agreement to build the 50 BOP 3.0 machines.
Then ARA increased the price again, I think this is what DP said.

I'd be in if they were getting made again.

We are agreed then.
This is our second misunderstanding on Pinside and the first one was my mistake. You sir, are a gentleman to deal with.

All owned by ARA according to this thread. How does going after DP release these to the EA’s if ARA is a contract manufacture that hasn’t been paid?

Thinking about this supply & demand thing I seriously believe you could sell tBL for boo coo cash if someone delivered it today NIB.

I’d definitely buy TBL if I could drive into a warehouse, pay and pick up an actual game. Can’t see this happening unfortunately. In a perfect world, DP sell the game to someone capable of actually making it.

That would be the Ultimate wish if they did it Long ago. Today that wish and buyer would come with a parade of EA buyers that got screwed out of hundreds of thousands of dollars that rightfully would not let that stand. The failure and scam of DP will sadly forever haunt this amazing title.

Update: this arrived just now...

Yes a box...

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Will open it and take a look.

Paid on Wed last week, posted on Monday and arrive today..

I only wish that it was the whole machine..

Looks like someone’s been walking on it!
Maybe you should send it to me!

Yeah saw that, it’s pretty well packed, will open it up in the next few hrs and inspect it!

Send pics!

Opened this baby up!

It’s beautiful!
All inserts good, colours are great and the register is spot on.. And the shine of the clear coat. Looks pretty thick and smooooth!

Loads of inserts, didn’t realise there were so many...

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Looks like a Mirco playfield

Yes it is has his logo on the bottom

Hopefully there is a very unlikely positive outcome from all this for you and the other EAs.

Otherwise, a sad but beautiful reminder of what could have been.

I'll try to be clear;
Original Artwork, Design drawings,Engineering blueprints and proprietary tooling, along with Licensing (expired but renewable, still viable for machines already produced) are assets DP owns.
ARA would like 51 percent of DP in order to own these assets in order to sell completed machines whole and recoup their investment. Without these rights they will not be able to sell finished product, only non proprietary parts,tooling designed by them, and memorabilia without licensed images. This means all backglasses, plastics, stencils,decals,literature featuring Universal -approved artwork must be destroyed if DP prevails and cannot pay the outstanding fees determined by the Court to release them back to DP or assemble them to viable product.
As the funding Agents for development, start-up and assembly of remaining machines/parts residing at ARA Early Achievers have a strong claim, perhaps a stronger claim,than DP to these assets should insolvency prevent release, as well if the Court rules in ARA favor, preventing them from having free rein to sell the remaining machines/parts on the free Market until all EA's obligations are fulfilled.
In a nutshell a legal petition of Group Claimants added to any DP/AR lawsuit could net EA's something tangible.
Without it they have nothing but hope DP will return to a position of solvency and address their claims.

Does anyone have an idea when this whole debacle goes to court?

At this point if ARA prevails it would mean new machines being delivered,and new machines being manufactured. They seem to have the "Deep pockets necessary and an ace in the hole with the captive assets.
DP? Miracles do happen, I wish them the best.
Then I can purchase my first NIB.

I seriously doubt ARA have any intention whatsoever of making more machines.

If they get DP's assets and Universal approve the sale of the completed units, they will go to the highest bidders - or bidder if someone offers enough for the entire lot.

I'm sure they'd try to sell all the rights on, but I can't see there being much interest from the industry, given all the baggage.

What DP holds is valuable, the key to further production and profits. The old assembly line could be put back in place in a day. Their previous stated desire to procure 51 percent of DP gives a strong indication of their intentions.

Absolute nonsense.

This was always a small contract for them in the first place. The chances of them then breaking their business model of being a contract manufacturer to chase some imaginary 'profit' after this debacle is much closer to none than slim.

Almost certainly they'll want to recover as many costs as possible and be done with it.

I don't know who Phil-lee is, but he is the first new guy in the thread who makes any sense at all to me.

ARA has more than 40 assembled machines in boxes. They have parts for another 150 at least. Setting the line up again makes a lot more sense if they are going to turn all the parts into machines.

How do EA's band together and protect our interest in this scenario?

Sorry RTR, have to agree with Rubberducks. Damned, would be nice if I could sync with RTR. Had a beer on the island RTR cheering to you .

ARA has for sure no interest in assembling more machines. They will sell off the finished goods and parts and that’s it. They have no roots in the pinball industry so without designers people who know what players-buyers want etc what would be the use? Any loss leftover would be a write off for them and than game over.

Must admit this has always been the biggest puzzle with me. Why did ARA do so much work and investments and than not finish at least the first 300 pcs???? Would have been more easy and even if they would have been produced at a loss for sure less a loss than they are looking at now. Guess that’s why manager Rene was fired .... business wise ARA didn’t make much sense to me.

Oh, and in case ARA wins the courtcase is EA are screwed. They will never give the 40-50 pcs to the first EA’s in line. They will go, like the parts, to the highest bidder

Why did they not finish? They never got paid for the work they did. Why would they continue is the better question.

By building all 300 ARA could have minimized their loss per game. Yes, 250 would be sitting in a warehouse unsold at a total cost of millions of dollars/euros, but the loss per game would be slightly less due to fixed costs early in the run.

I am not sure why you won't accept that ARA stopped producing games because DP refused to pay for them. It was even implied in your shared DP email. Jaap basically said DP had no money. This is really the simplest part of the whole problem.

This seems to make sense. Thanks for this info!

This doesn't seem to in this case.

What's necessary to do this in the Dutch legal system? Anyone know?

I think he means if ARA prevails in a way that allows them to continue the project legally. I am not sure how exactly that would work, but maybe if the judge awarded them ownership of the assets of a defunct DP including the IP assets.

ARA, if they owned the physical assets (which they do) plus the IP, and if they worked out the licensing with Universal (could happen), then they could produce more than the games they have on hand.

I am not sure how that would work. Maybe if a judgement went against DP (and it is possible that Jaap and Barry personally guaranteed the ARA deal too) then maybe the only thing they have left to bargain with is their IP?

I don't really see a way the EAs are protected in all of this unless a judgement moved all of the assets and liabilities (EA obligations) of DP to ARA. Maybe one of our attorneys could opine on this. Tigerlaw?

I am totally in agreement with this. We are finally in sync

But why was dP running out of money? The units were supposed to be built in 2015 by ARA !! Summer 2016 it still wasn’t done and 2 years running a company (1 Yr more as calculated at that moment) costs money and no new income was generated. And than ARA rose the price substantially which dP even agreed to IF they would make them all in 2016 plus 50 pcs BoP. These extra sales were needed to cover the losses caused by ARA in the first place. And guess what, in October 2016 it showed ARA hadn’t even ordered the parts for the BoP. So than DP terminated the new agreement. So much for reliable ARA. And remember, Ara had full access to the DP books. So they knew exactly in ewhich financial state DP was in when they promised delivery 2016 incl 50 pcs. BoP. They knew they had to make the extra units to cover the losses they caused but still didn’t do it. So their whining on we didn’t get paid was all their own doing !!

If I am accusing DP of anything is that they didn’t waterproof the contract against delayed deliveries. But must also admit that the behavior of ARA is unusual in Dutch business and certainly of a bigger company.