Do you know if he was fired as a direct result of the contract? For all we know, he could've been terminated for stealing paper clips or pinching bums in the workplace.

It's human nature and cathartic for people to express themselves in difficult times. Personally, I'm impressed with many of the insightful comments posted by some very intelligent people as they dissect past events and speculate on the future.

Phil was guessing back then and only seems knowledgeable in hindsight.

"Do you know if he was fired as a direct result of the contract? For all we know, he could've been terminated for stealing paper clips or pinching bums in the workplace. "

...We do know after he was fired,(which coincidentally was shortly after the date on the letter) ARA and DP immediately started speaking again so we may infer a connection.

Is ARA publicly held and are there financial records available? If so, it may provide some clues. How big is ARA and, therefore, how important was DP to them? Second, there may be a write-off listed related to this that would give some sense of if and how much was paid. I have no idea how the financial reporting works there but it might provide some interesting, fact-based, info.

There is nothing preventing Jaap, or preferably Barry, from starting a thread to answer some of these burning questions. Or they could just jump on this one.

They haven’t posted here in years. Not sure if that’s good or bad...but honestly it doesn’t help them when people have nothing but feelings and opinions to discuss when the facts are being withheld.

He was pretty damn specific in his assessment of the money gameplan and deployment thereof. Including Barry and his budgeting woes.

In hindsight, it was enough to thankfully get my $$ out since he was the custodian of the US funds and wanted to have nothing to do with these guys in the future.

Guessing or not, he knew a WHOLE lot more than the rest of us and that was good enough for me.

I did get to play some Big Lebowski slot machines this weekend

Why post now. They never cared to set the record straight then, and the last NSNL said game over dude. Also, they get colds and are unable to bang out 3 paragragh NSNLs when it matters.

How?

I now firmly believe you are Jaap or Barry.

...or just the most naive and gullible person on this forum.

I like where your head is, but ARA is not publicly held. I believe ARA itself has 100 or so employees.

Both Apparatenfabriek ARA and parent Nivoge Groep are BVs - limited liability companies essentially.

Therefore, basic publicly available accounts should be posted for both, despite being privately held. Just like DP's are.

Haha..I assure you I'm not DP. If the letter is not 100% true, ARA lying to DP customers may be defamation- some DP customers truly believed the unsigned letter. DP collected our money, who signed with ARA to build the games. Is the root cause of us not receiving our games in October 2015 ARA failing to perform to the DP contract? Why wouldn't ARA produce our games? The low production numbers suggest ARA may not have wanted to make TBLs.

If ARA generated a bad quote to produce TBL, that's on ARA not on DP. Let's speculate it would cost ARA $1800 extra per game to produce.
300 x $1800 = negative $540,000 If they fulfil the DP contract. Which may explain why ARA kept moving our TBL build back and working on other ARA contracts.

The contract: 300 completed TBL's between April - October 2015 - 210 day build. The letter is dated Feb 2017 - 660 days over due with only 90 completed games - less than 1/3 of the contract completed? If we suspect that more time would result in more cost, how could the price stay the same as our letter writer states?
ARA was very competent in the beginning with the bowling ball assembly and now we understand ARA made the DP sample games we saw at the release party. Something isn't adding up on why ARA's delivery to the contract was so low, even the anonymous ARA letter writer states DP was paying bills.

ARA in the 51/49 deal could have stopped making games before they started losing money, not everyone would have received the game they paid for and DP would be over. A minor victory for some people with low number games, bad for others that would lose their money and never receive anything, bad for DP, bad for people that would have games with unfinished code, and no warranty. I'm glad DP walked away - and we have a low number game and would have most likely received our TBL.

Not sure about NL courts vs US courts, but I imagine they are similar. DP has a strong case, which is good for us EA's and ARA has a lot of explaining to do. Question is, does DP have enough money to pay the lawyers to fight ARA and is there enough money at ARA to pay DP for damages?

Some people have suggested a gofundme or kickstart - good idea. I'll add more money to DP, if they need money to fight ARA in court or kickstart the line at xytech.

Jaap and Barry should bust out their nut drivers and build the games themselves. I mean, what the heck, they draw salary. Why not work for it?

At 2 machines a week, they could have put all the EA games together by now.

Cut a new deal with ARA where DP just pays for the existing parts and some space. I think #141 would get here quicker this route....

But what if it is?

If it is true? Then we have to believe ARA forgot how to build TBLs. They built the prototype games, their numbers should have been better than 660+ days to make it to only number 90.

Hmmm, not a bad idea for the future, or restart the line at xytech? The new CM seems to be doing much better, we were making great progress. Unfortunately we have to deal with the ARA issue now.

Quoted from Brijam:
"Throughout this it's really a shame that DP hasn't done a better job communicating their challenges and day to day struggles. If they had, maybe the pinball community would have rallied to their side in a gofundme legal defense for them."

This is an excellent idea Brijam. Does anyone have any experience starting a gofundme? If we could raise enough for a legal defense, ARA would most likely back down and settle with DP quickly. Xytech could then start producing games, once games start flowing EA's that want out would have a viable option to receive all their money back . I have donated to a few gofundme campaigns over the years, I know nothing about starting one.

Give them even more money? That is your plan? Wow. I really need to get into the pinball making business.

Are you Jaap's mom? Go home Ms Nauta, you are drunk.

Haha.....Nope, I already posted I'm not with DP just an EA like you RTR. The Big Lebowski is a cult movie, it goes far beyond the pinball community. A lot of people would not want to own a pinball machine, but they would like to play TBL. Small donations in large numbers would do great things to get the project back on track.

Unreal.

DP blew through the pre-order money. They didn't pay ARA. End of story.

Dude, we gave them large donations in large numbers. They won't tell us what they have done with it. They mis-managed the project.

Hell, I might start one for ARA. Or the EA's legal fund. Not DP.

Delusional, what is he thinking?

That can happen over time. Should have paid the bill.

The pins would go to DP, if at all, it doesn't look like that will happen. I don't think you are part of that process.

No, the letter from ARA said they were paying bills. The "non payment" ARA is claiming could be read as "DP didn't pay the increase". We don't know what really happened, just speculation.

Can't see it that way. If ARA produced a larger number of games in a shorter period of time I might join you. ARA never did, and never would have if they were losing money on TBL. If you do collect Maybe ARA can finish 210 more TBLs by 2035, looking at their ability to produce a finished game.

I agree with that statement, if they did send it to DP customer, but that means the contract is probably pretty messy at this point.

Yes ARA did send that letter to someone on pinside- very sketchy business practice at ARA. I do believe ARA was taking DP for a ride, along with all of us and all our EA money. While DP is not perfect they are way better than ARA.

ARA is the only company that has produced TBL end consumer machines. They turned the line off because DP turned the money off. ARA would have finished the entire run months ago if not for DP's horrible business management skills.

There's no convincing him, no matter how logically you present it.

en vogue.gif

Xytech has produced a few TBLs in a short amount of time with an improved board set. Let's agree to disagree on what turned the line off. You say DP didn't pay ARA, I say DP didn't agree with paying the extra money ARA was demanding. Do we agree time is money? Instead of 300 games in 210 days. ARA could only manage 90 games in 660 days. How could there not be a price increase? ARA's story isn't adding up. As you suggested, Barry and Jaap could have put out more TBL's if they built the games by hand.

"That's barely a concept!!!!!"

By Aristocrat. Thank goodness those bumbling idiots at Dutch Pinball had nothing to do with the slot machines.

Right, because ARA is the Gambino Family when it comes to sheet metal, PCBs, and mechatronics. They go after little pinball companies and shake them down. It's been super lucrative and productive for them since 1961. Who needs UL or ISO 9001 certification when you can just "whack" your customers?

I guess I can't be the most gullible or naïve person on pinside if ARA supporters exist. LOL

I am not being naive; I'm being real.
You still haven't explained DP's "no refund" policy and the legality behind it.

Production hasn't begun on games #92 and above (give or take), so why no refunds?

Why are customers at the mercy of pending litigation?

Why are customers at the mercy of a change in contract manufacturer?

How is any of this lawful in The Netherlands, let alone any other country?

I'm just trying to accept the situation we are in today and find a way forward. I don't want any EA's to lose on TBL, even those I don't agree with.

Didn’t they offer refunds up until production started? Was it not spelled out that once production started and parts were ordered that EA’s were locked in? I fail to see where this could be considered illegal. Changing manufactures doesn’t change the fact that they started production and had ordered parts.

You don't have any choice but to accept the situation. Why is it up to you to find a way forward unless you are someone involved in the project?

he's #77 on the EA list per the old tracking thread, which puts him in the.. has a game sitting in ARA club.

And even if he's a lazy man - and the Dude was most certainly that. Quite possibly the laziest in Los Angeles County, which would place him high in the runnin' for laziest worldwide.

Good question DCFAN, why would we need to find a way forward- we don't. But it benefits us and all the other EA's if we do so we'll try. That being said, we're forming the "Seattle Seven". We are EA's brainstorming ways to end ARA involvement in TBL and restart the line. Doesn't it seem like whenever ARA is involved everything grinds to a halt? LOL.. 90 games in only two years, nice job ARA - you must have been working in shifts!
If you want to join us, everyone with a sense of humor is welcome - not just EA's. PM me and We'll fill you in on the details.

No one with a sense of humor gives thumbs down as much as you do.

I was curious to ARA's response if I asked to buy a TBL direct, and here was their response.

ARA-EMAIL (resized).jpg

Just to clarify, in Dutch, the small print at the bottom states any information contained in this email is for the adressed only and not allowed to be publicly anounced or published.

Good thing I don't speak or read Dutch

It wasn't spelled out at all. I challenge someone here to prove otherwise. This isn't a custom-built product either.
Per their FAQ on 10/4/14:

DP TBL FAQ refund (resized).jpg

You’d fit right in here in NL..

tumblr_m8sr20x62j1qca432o1_250.gif