(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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27 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20 (Show topic index)

There are 11312 posts in this topic. You are on page 151 of 227.
11
#7501 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Experts of Dangerous. Licensed by the two guys from Mythbusters.

That's hideous.

#7502 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Experts of Dangerous. Licensed by the two guys from Mythbusters.

Kim, triple-coin slot, that was meant for overseas as their first shipments might have been going there... And maybe they still are.

Brad

11
#7503 1 year ago

Eye burning garbage. It was instantly mocked upon reveal for its stupid theme, stupid title, and stupid art.

#7504 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Eye burning garbage. It was instantly mocked upon reveal for its stupid theme, stupid title, and stupid art.

So, DP can put you down as a 'maybe' for preorder?

#7505 1 year ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

So, DP can put you down as a 'maybe' for preorder?

Huh? I’m talking about the SkitB game.

#7506 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Huh? I’m talking about the SkitB game.

If I am not mistaken I believe VonnieD might have acquired the rights for the Mythbusters machine when Skit-B went down.

Brad

#7507 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Using a 'sniff test' isn't a good idea in contract law or in trying to figure out how people or businesses work.

I think you missed the context of the post. The context is "someone taking Dutch Pinball's version of the story verbatium on what happened..."

Someone who is taking DP's tale of the tape as gospel of what happened. And my post was about scrutinizing that version of the story based on information available OUTSIDE of DP's direct telling of the story.

Hence the 'sniff test' - when someone tells you a tale, how well does it hold up to what you know from other sources, your experience, and what you know about the processes involved.

Quoted from Brijam:

Covering for your CM's mistakes I'd see as a natural response

Except they don't claim it was ARA's mistake - it was already the point where ARA had locked them down. Instead, DP creates some cover story.. which erodes the credibility of their story. The only reason their story got exposed was when people stopped taking it as gospel and went around DP and found the truth.

Quoted from Brijam:

Did they completely fail to execute? It seems to me that they executed but demanded more money /or else/.

If you listen to DP's version of the story - Yes, execution was the fault. (and in this case.. a poster who follows DP's story blindly) Remember also this poster was calling out why ARA couldn't get the games built on some schedule he keeps referencing... and claims ARA was handed a complete ready to go prototype. The entire premise of his claim is ARA are idiots and couldn't get the job done, so DP was right to not to pay. . And that's exactly what I'm calling to the mat.

#7508 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Huh? I’m talking about the SkitB game.

Yeah, I meant SkitB, confused by the many meanderings of this thread...Hey, I'm old

#7509 1 year ago

It seems to my simple mind that that flynnibus is merely applying Occam's razor. Doesn't automatically mean he is right and Brijam is wrong; rather, food for thought.

#7510 1 year ago
Quoted from RTR:

Hey man, you started this thread!

I apologize for that.

#7511 1 year ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

So, DP can put you down as a 'maybe' for preorder?

I'm still laughing. "Yes, please tell us how you really feel. Don't sugar coat it this time..."

#7512 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

From Wikipedia: "Deus ex machina (Latin) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly and abruptly resolved by an unexpected and seemingly unlikely occurrence, typically to the point of being perceived as a contrived plot point. Its function can be to resolve an otherwise irresolvable plot situation, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or act as a comedic device".
I had to look it up and thought I'd share. (Well done RT)

Speaking of, did anyone else see Ex Machina? Incredible movie, well worth the two hours.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0470752/

#7513 1 year ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Speaking of, did anyone else see Ex Machina? Incredible movie, well worth the two hours.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0470752/

Yes I did. Bit slow for my taste but the story is very good.

#7514 1 year ago

Not sure what time of day rensh is awake, so re-posting:

rensh Will any of the court documents be publicly available over there? Usually you can get a copy of the complaint here in the states.

Also, it would be great to get copies of the counter suit from DP and post them here for everyone. Neither of these would be covered under NDA and both will come out eventually. I say the sooner it comes out the better.

Perhaps you could ask Barry for a copy of both documents. If so, it would be informative to translate and post on this thread. That would be the first real information ever received.

#7515 1 year ago
Quoted from RTR:

Not sure what time of day rensh is awake, so re-posting:

I guess...as it's 5 AM here now

-"What day is this ?"

Wonder how many TBLs there are here on this side of the pond as DP's market is more for the US customers at first.
My guess is 15 games in Europe, heard of one in Russia too..

#7516 1 year ago

At the end of the day, all we can do is assume. What we know is that ARA is stuck with inventory they can’t move, and DP wants to make a pinball machine. None of us know the financials or the specifics of the contracts. On face value, ARA timed the lawsuit to bankrupt DP to give them a strategic advantage. Why would they need this if they are “in the right?”
If they had a true case, it would have been filed immediately. What they need is a defenseless defendant.

#7517 1 year ago
Quoted from titanpenguin:

At the end of the day, all we can do is assume. What we know is that ARA is stuck with inventory they can’t move, and DP wants to make a pinball machine. None of us know the financials or the specifics of the contracts. On face value, ARA timed the lawsuit to bankrupt DP to give them a strategic advantage. Why would they need this if they are “in the right?”
If they had a true case, it would have been filed immediately. What they need is a defenseless defendant.

How do we know when they filed? We do not have the dates or documents. DP has been stalling again. Why was production not started in China months ago, Why no updates. I think they knew the lawsuit was coming, Or it came months ago but we are just finding out about it now.

#7518 1 year ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

Why was production not started in China months ago, Why no updates. I think they knew the lawsuit was coming, Or it came months ago but we are just finding out about it now.

I think we only find out now, as they had to release a newsletter when people here were talking about contacting Universal.

Chinese production, probably not ready yet? But the ara claim will also stop that.

Ara developed part of the tbl hardware, right ?
So they own the ip on that. Either they own it forever, or until dp pays all bills. Which they haven't.

So when a container from China should arrive, ara can try to stop it and claim they are counterfeit goods as they have ip rights on part of it.

Even if Ara if wrong, and xytech has recreated all the boards, it's another lawsuit, investigation, .. which may keep the chinese games stuck in customs for a long time.
Production can only start when ara is totally out of the picture. Starting manufacturing in China now will only give ara another tool to put pressure and cost dp more money.

Disclaimer: i am not a lawyer so everything is speculation

#7519 1 year ago
Quoted from RTR:

Not sure what time of day rensh is awake, so re-posting:
rensh Will any of the court documents be publicly available over there? Usually you can get a copy of the complaint here in the states.
Also, it would be great to get copies of the counter suit from DP and post them here for everyone. Neither of these would be covered under NDA and both will come out eventually. I say the sooner it comes out the better.
Perhaps you could ask Barry for a copy of both documents. If so, it would be informative to translate and post on this thread. That would be the first real information ever received.

I am awake now

Thought I already posted this but I did a check on it with a legal person I know and apparently not public available (his specialism was criminal justice however but a google search also didn’t reveal it) . Only courtsession is open for the public. If I am not mistaking the court is in Groningen (close to ÄRA) which is like a 2,5 hr car drive for me.

DP has legally time to prepare the counterclaim till end of June if I recollect this properly. You have like two months time for this by law apparently. It takes time ofcourse to study the Ära claim and counter it

#7520 1 year ago

A generally accepted fact is that ARA has 40 built games built and parts to make more. However, I recall DP claim they went to the factory and there were no games. Someone is wrong here. For those that said DP only lied about a few things and if there are 40 games made, then DP is a pathological liar. Well they also lied many times between 2015 to 2017 about having enough money to build games - every day they didn't warning buyers of their fatal financial problems. DP is on the downside of the slippery slope they've created. Very unDude!

It is understandable that a few EA's believe their game may still arrive (eternal optimists and delusional dreamers) and should be given more time to grieve. Bottom line is that no one will be making more TBL's, ever. License will have expired and studio won't reup because of the DP fiasco. If the 40 game exist, they will be sold.

#7521 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

A generally accepted fact is that ARA has 40 built games built and parts to make more. However, I recall DP claim they went to the factory and there were no games. Someone is wrong here. For those that said DP only lied about a few things and if there are 40 games made, then DP is a pathological liar. Well they also lied many times between 2015 to 2017 about having enough money to build games, every day they didn't warning buyers of their fatal financial problems. DP is on the downside of the slippery slope they've created. Very unDude!

First time I hear that DP stated once that there were no 40 games. I can only recollect from memory that the space were TBL was built used to be an open space and after the end of the relation became a locked space with restricted access and camera and alarm thus unable to check anymore. They were built and to the best of my knowledge they are still there. If they would have been resold by Ära in this age of internet this would have come out by now.

#7522 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I am awake now
Thought I already posted this but I did a check on it with a legal person I know and apparently not public available (his specialism was criminal justice however but a google search also didn’t reveal it) . Only courtsession is open for the public. If I am not mistaking the court is in Groningen (close to ÄRA) which is like a 2,5 hr car drive for me.
DP has legally time to prepare the counterclaim till end of June if I recollect this properly. You have like two months time for this by law apparently. It takes time ofcourse to study the Ära claim and counter it

Thanks rensh for the info and for updating as frequently as you do. Although you and I disagree on this thread a lot - I think you are a pretty good dude.

In the end, I hope you are right and I am wrong. I will even let you feed me one bite of my crow if that happens!

#7523 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Really?? Presumably that was before all the shit broke about him not having the Predator license.
What was the second game?

There's still a Youtube video up. Surreal looking back at this now, with Kevin all cleaned up, trying to pretend he was all professional. Him announcing this second game (built by JJP) with NO mention of Predator was what really lit the gas on fire with the rumors at the time.

But my point still remains that there are existing manufacturers that would likely love the money from a 3rd party build.

Screen Shot 2018-05-26 at 9.36.18 AM (resized).png

#7524 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I heard long time ago from Barry that payments on the first deliveries have (partial) been done. How big the partial part is I don’t know but best guess (here we go again ) would be the amount stipulated in the contract between Ära and DP and not the extra part.

Long time lurker in this thread with no skin in the game here other than friends who are stuck, but this seems to be a key point to me. It sounds as though the first group of already delivered games was never entirely paid for? Is that correct?

#7525 1 year ago
Quoted from SergioJ:

Long time lurker in this thread with no skin in the game here other than friends who are stuck, but this seems to be a key point to me. It sounds as though the first group of already delivered games was never entirely paid for? Is that correct?

No one knows with authority one way or the other. The assumption is games were paid for, but there may have been other monies due... plus ara looking for new pricing.

It’s a he said, she said... for what the additional costs were for and when they started.

#7526 1 year ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

How do we know when they filed? We do not have the dates or documents. DP has been stalling again. Why was production not started in China months ago, Why no updates. I think they knew the lawsuit was coming, Or it came months ago but we are just finding out about it now.

I highly doubt the lawsuit came more than a month or so ago. Again, look at what we actually know, not what people are conjecturing. Lots of theory’s, but no one knows anything outside of the limited facts at hand.

#7527 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

No one knows with authority one way or the other. The assumption is games were paid for, but there may have been other monies due... plus ara looking for new pricing.
It’s a he said, she said... for what the additional costs were for and when they started.

Actually the assumption is no games were paid for, That is why ARA would not release the 2nd batch or continue production. That is what the rumors are.

#7528 1 year ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

Actually the assumption is no games were paid for, That is why ARA would not release the 2nd batch or continue production. That is what the rumors are.

Yes, well a rumor and $5 will buy you a latte.

I'm looking at this from an ordinary business practice standpoint.

In an ordinary business transaction one would expect payment up front before merchandise is delivered. I would expect a CM to ask for an up front payment to cover ordering parts at the very least.

It strains credibility that an experienced manufacturer would release the first batch of completed product to a startup company without being paid /something/ before delivery. We're talking about a retail value of $340,000.

Perhaps DP negotiated a line of credit with the CM and didn't have to pay for all of them in advance of manufacture, but that also seems like a big risk for a CM to assume. I would think you'd lose your job at a CM if you agreed to a contract that didn't at least cover your costs before releasing finished goods to a startup.

#7529 1 year ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

Don't want to get into a pissing contest around experience. I'll just leave it as I have extensive experience running consulting organizations and have seen change management processes in myriad contracts and in use from many, many companies. I've never seen a change management process that that did not provide for the ability to modify schedule based upon the nature of the change.

Me either. I was just curious what your experience was, because it sounded like you had experience dealing with contract manufacturers. My experience isn't in manufacturing but in software. I was hoping someone with lots of experience dealing with contract manufacturers could shed more light on common business practices in manufacturing.

Quoted from Oldgoat:

In fact, the analysis for any requested change includes cost and schedule impact. Doesn't mean there is always an impact to schedule but it is definitely evaluated. Remember too, this is a two-way street. Client requests a change, the analysis is performed and a change order is produced. The client has the right to sign off or not. The contract simply provides the mechanism. DP saying they agreed to a $1000 change reads to me like: A change was requested, a change order was produced, the change order signed by DP.

I agree that the $1,000 per machine increase could have come about through a legitimate change order process.

But, at least in software, disputes often revolve around what is a legitimate change vs. what is a defect. DP could say "that isn't a change, it is correcting a problem you created when you engineered them," or something like that. And ARA could say "no, that's a valid change order."

#7530 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

.... I would think you'd lose your job at a CM if you agreed to a contract that didn't at least cover your costs before releasing finished goods to a startup.

Guess what, he was fired

It is a well accepted assumption that this was done because the owners where not to happy with the manager because how he handled DP. I like to believe that they disliked how he handled the contract and was unable to get the TBLs out the door.

However, after he left they apparently decided to continue the way of the former manager. So not honoring the contract. DP was prepared to give them full control of the moneyflow (TBls sn 200-300 where unpair by CT and Nitro) so payment of a considerable amount was secured. Eeven if they would make eur 1000 loss on each TBL this would still be a lot less than writing it all off. And if they would be prepared to produce more units this could be at a higher price level and it would be payback time. When the manager left I had really good hopes than

#7531 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

.....DP could say "that isn't a change, it is correcting a problem you created when you engineered them," or something like that. And ARA could say "no, that's a valid change order."

I have always understood that DP didn’t design the TBL on a hardware level.

They specified functionality to Ära and Ära had ‘free hand’ in how they wanted to reach that functionality. Suppose that a design change was needed during production to reach-maintain this functionality this would thus be a pure Ära matter.

24
#7532 1 year ago

Reading parts of this thread I refound ARA's response over a year ago as to why they stopped producing games. They claim non payment, which makes logical sense. Speculation was DP was mostly out of the money or had a little but far short of what was neded.

IMG_0289 (resized).PNG

#7533 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Reading parts of this thread I refound ARA's response over a year ago as to why they stopped producing games. They claim non payment, which makes logical sense. Speculation was DP was mostly out of the money or had a little but far short of what was neded.

BAM there it is. Thank you so much for posting this. I do not know how anyone can still be drinking the kool-aid now. DP has continued to lie, and stall.

#7534 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

If I am not mistaking

Quoted from Rensh:

if I recollect this properly

Quoted from Rensh:

I can only recollect from memory

Quoted from Rensh:

to the best of my knowledge

Quoted from Rensh:

It is a well accepted assumption

Quoted from Rensh:

I have always understood that

Quoted from Rensh:

Suppose that

Lolz...

#7535 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Reading parts of this thread I refound ARA's response over a year ago as to why they stopped producing games. They claim non payment, which makes logical sense. Speculation was DP was mostly out of the money or had a little but far short of what was neded.

I would upvote you 10 times for that upload if I could.

#7536 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Reading parts of this thread I refound ARA's response over a year ago as to why they stopped producing games. They claim non payment, which makes logical sense. Speculation was DP was mostly out of the money or had a little but far short of what was neded.

You can read that letter a couple of ways. One way is that there was one agreed upon price for the first lot (ARA says 'few') and a different price for the future machines. That could make sense if ARA agreed not to pass change order increases on until subsequent runs. Either way, it does show that there was a disagreement regarding future price. Reasonable Pinsiders can all disagree on why until the truth comes out. Which it hasn't yet.

The DP/ARA deal started going sour around 11/1/2016. It didn't get reported as such by DP (to my personal detriment, but this isn't about me, lol) until Feb/2017 and then only when some Pinsiders called bullshit on DP's most recent board issue story. And then DP was forced to come out and admit they lied about the board issue.

I mention these timelines bc DP made a decision not to work with ARA from at least January 2017 forward, probably earlier. Their reasoning, according to them, was to save money because ARA 'changed the pricing'. Again, let's not argue fault - ARA vs DP. But, DP did make a business decision at that point - January 1, 2017 (for arguments sake) and these are the financial impacts thus far (as of 5/26/18) of that business decision and the costs of that decision:

- They spent money 17 months (and counting, this part REALLY pisses me off) of additional salary for Jaap and Barry
- They spent money on 17 months (and counting) of office space, utilities, and other overhead items.
- They spent TBL pre-order money to design and promote a BOP 25 pinball machine. This was just a monumentally stupid move and waste of money. (wait, maybe this is the part that REALLY REALLY pisses me off....)
- They spent money to attend several pinball conferences during this time period to 'market' a pinball machine that they did not need to market bc they already had preorders and filling additional deposits at Nitro and Cointaker would not help them financially.
- They walked away from a contract with ARA that ARA could decide to sue over at any time, creating a potential liability/overhang that would prevent other entities from loaning them money.
- They spent TBL pre-order money on legal fees to deal with ARA on the above point and have far more money to be spent if they continue this direction.
- They spent money with a new CM (Xytech) that included the build out of several engineering samples, trips to China, and who knows how much additional money for engineering work, software to work with the new hardware and board design, etc.

Now, there is no transparency in our 'relationship' with DP. So we may never know exactly what the above has cost DP and I am sure I've left some expenditures out. I will bet that so far, it is way more on a per machine basis that ARA was going to charge them on the remaining pre-order games.

#7537 1 year ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

BAM there it is. Thank you so much for posting this. I do not know how anyone can still be drinking the kool-aid now. DP has continued to lie, and stall.

While this version of events in writing by ARA is nice to see, just because they claim something, doesn't necessarily make it correct. Remember, their manager at the time that this was written, has since been fired.

I'm not contending that ARA's claim is true or untrue - just that we should wait to see what results from the legal action(s) now in motion and not jump to conclusions in the meantime. If that's considered "drinking the Kool-Aid" then please serve me a pitcher of it.

#7538 1 year ago

Who drives by to count if there are really 40 left? https://goo.gl/maps/fU4tx36u1ms

#7539 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

we should wait to see what results from the legal action(s) now in motion and not jump to conclusions in the meantime.

Can we agree that DP needs money? That is definitely a fact.

-10
#7540 1 year ago

ARA admits DP paid for the "first few" games and I would bet all DP ARA bills were paid up to that point. DP was paying bills at ARA, that's good. DP did say they agreed to a price increase, "IF" ARA would start producing games faster. ARA never did increase production, but maybe still wanted the price increase?

Did DP pay "nothing", or did DP pay the original price minus the increase? If DP paid nothing for the 50 games, maybe it was over the disagreement on price increases and asking for a correct invoice. Did the person who wrote that letter get fired from ARA shortly after? Maybe some or all statements in that letter are false or misleading.

DP noted on livestream when they started production with xytech they (DP) would seek financing for the "reset". Once the production line moves and games ship, money could be collected. Most of the money for TBL has yet to be received on the first run of 300 games so we know it's there and not spent. The strategy of shipping some later number games first, mixed in with higher numbers already paid would fund xytech production on the first 300 games. An additional run of 300, or more following after.

Thanks for the letter, it now makes sense on why people are posting the way they are and It also helps the DP court case against ARA.

-9
#7541 1 year ago

February 24, 2017 date on the letter we can measure ARA's performance as the CM on TBL and see how they were doing.

33% completed, only 16% delivered, +400% on schedule -67% over due and we will guess +25-30% over budget. Numbers are working against ARA, for DP.

16
#7542 1 year ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

February 24, 2017 date on the letter we can measure ARA's performance as the CM on TBL and see how they were doing.
33% completed, only 16% delivered, +400% on schedule -67% over due and we will guess +25-30% over budget. Numbers are working against ARA, for DP.

Did you read the same letter that we did lol.

10
#7543 1 year ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

February 24, 2017 date on the letter we can measure ARA's performance as the CM on TBL and see how they were doing.
33% completed, only 16% delivered, +400% on schedule -67% over due and we will guess +25-30% over budget. Numbers are working against ARA, for DP.

For a guy that apparently wants these games to be made you sure do provide a lot of misinformation.

You’re a disservice here.

-10
#7544 1 year ago

We also know that the person in charge of the DP contract was terminated (shortly after the letter was sent out), Barry and Jaap were back at ARA on April 7, 2017 to negotiate the release of the games and restart of production.

April - October 2015 - 210 day schedule, 300 games delivered plus warranty by ARA. That's what has been posted. Kapper, Please provide your numbers if you do not agree.

20
#7545 1 year ago

The more I read this Thread the more I realize... Nobody Knows Shit!

10
#7546 1 year ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

or did DP pay the original price minus the increase?

Quoted from EternalLife:

Maybe some or all

tbl.gif

#7547 1 year ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

We also know that the person in charge of the DP contract was terminated (shortly after the letter was sent out), Barry and Jaap were back at ARA on April 7, 2017 to negotiate the release of the games and restart of production.
April - October 2015 - 210 day schedule, 300 games delivered plus warranty by ARA. That's what has been posted. Kapper, Please provide your numbers if you do not agree.

tbl3.gif

#7548 1 year ago
Quoted from spfxted:

The more I read this Thread the more I realize... Nobody Knows Shit!

TBL pinball' story gets an own scenario that keeps surprises coming up all the time, reality gets ahead of fiction all the time too..

#7549 1 year ago
Quoted from spfxted:

The more I read this Thread the more I realize... Nobody Knows Shit!

Phil did, early on.

Quoted from EternalLife:

Thanks for the letter, it now makes sense on why people are posting the way they are and It also helps the DP court case against ARA.

Totally delusional

#7550 1 year ago
Quoted from spfxted:

The more I read this Thread the more I realize... Nobody Knows Shit!

It doesn't help that "Donnys" are constantly wandering into it and voicing opinions and/or stating "facts" based on obvious misinformation or no information at all.

Regardless though, you're right. And for that, I blame Dutch Pinball as they have been less than forthcoming with the amount of information that customers, who are so heavily invested in TBL and have been so supportive of it for so long now, deserve.

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