(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)

By Nilroc

9 years ago


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#7451 5 years ago

I don’t think we will ever work this out in a forum as after all we are all best guessing.

Yep.

#7452 5 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

many hours with Barry which enabled me to get a feeling on the opposite person. If he has been lying to me all these years he should get an Emmy award for best actor.

But what if he was not lying at all ? I strongly believe that they did not set out to have this go this way, but they were also new to this all. If I look at all the other ventures gone wrong, it was mostly due to problems that they found during ramping up to production.

Every time such a problem would occur at DP with the production of the TBL (which history has proven happens), this could have meant a possible reason for ARA to reconsider the stipulations of the contract, such as price and delivery time. Maybe ARA had every right to do that, but obviously that was not in the best intrest of DP at all.

This is just a feeling I get from all of this as I have been following this for a long time, no skin in the game. Just wanted to shed another light on this.

#7453 5 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

Someone who has had communication with ARA directly.

I heard of somebody who heard that ....

I heard long time ago from Barry that payments on the first deliveries have (partial) been done. How big the partial part is I don’t know but best guess (here we go again ) would be the amount stipulated in the contract between Ära and DP and not the extra part.

12
#7454 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

April 2015
ARA and DP signed a contract that says that DP will buy 300 TBLs from ARA, delivered between April and October 2015.
May 2015
ARA informs DP that the agreed price is too low because the cost price is higher than estimated. DP agrees with the new price.
April 2016
First shipment of TBL.
ARA metrics. 300 delivered games, April-October 2015 - 210 days.
First delivery of only 50 games - 420 days later
ARA's numbers are: 16% delivery , 200% late on schedule, 25-30% over on price. Horrible numbers, they failed in every category. If there were major board issues, ARA made the board set so ARA fails again in the 4th category- quality.
In the US you can sue the CM for loss of reputation, business, damages, ect if they fail to meet the contract.
If the law in the NL is the same, the numbers suggest ARA is not in a good position.
If ARA has to pay DP for the 250 TBL's they couldn't produce on time on budget DP will walk away with everything they need to finish the original project, and a lot more.

If all this is true (and IF is the key word) one thing really confuses me... why didn’t DP sue earlier? They would have had an open and shut case and an easy win. Instead they waited to be sued (and counter claimed according to their communication). If they were wronged so badly they should have sued first. Have they explained this? Seems like something is missing here...

People can take sides all they want - there is clearly a bunch of missing information no matter how much we beat this thread to death.

#7455 5 years ago

agree but they did provide a reason at the time, lame or not, was that they didn't want to delay production by spending $$ and energy doing lawsuit vs walking away and finding another manufacturer.

all very undude like.

#7456 5 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

agree but they did provide a reason at the time, lame or not, was that they didn't want to delay production by spending $$ and energy doing lawsuit vs walking away and finding another manufacturer.
all very undude like.

Definitely a lame excuse. The lawsuit doesn’t delay anything. It would drain money obviously... but not delay anything else. Anyone who thinks logically realizes the argument is like this “I have been wronged by hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars... but I’m going to let that slide...”

In my experience people usually say they didn’t want to litigate because they were in the wrong and they know it. They don’t want to “waste” money on something they can’t win.

#7457 5 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

agree but they did provide a reason at the time, lame or not, was that they didn't want to delay production by spending $$ and energy doing lawsuit vs walking away and finding another manufacturer.
all very undude like.

It didn't pass the sniff test then... it doesn't pass the sniff test now.

Didn't want to delay production? Like finding and spinning up a new CM for pinball would have been faster? We all know the answer to that, and history has proven it.

Didn't want to waste the money? Like starting over would be somehow be cheap?

And we all knew they couldn't just walk away from ARA and have nothing happen... yet somehow they really believed that? And now it's time to pay the piper...

#7458 5 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I won't be bashing the country, they are the 6th happiest place to live. And we don't need a derail into politics!
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/16/these-are-the-top-10-happiest-countries-in-the-world.html

Happy cause they didn't preorder TBL!

#7459 5 years ago
Quoted from brainmegaphone:

If all this is true (and IF is the key word) one thing really confuses me... why didn’t DP sue earlier? They would have had an open and shut case and an easy win. Instead they waited to be sued (and counter claimed according to their communication). If they were wronged so badly they should have sued first.

I made this point a few times. From what I gather, the statute of limitations on a Dutch contract claim is 5 years. Even then, DP should have immediately pursued a claim, ESPECIALLY if they already paid for all the prototypes, parts, & materials like they claim to have done. The BoP25 prototype(s) would have been in their possession had they actually paid for it.

This is why none of it makes sense.
DP claims they intended to save money by bouncing on ARA, but we shouldn't forget the time and money spent with Xytech (pre-production costs, trips to China, parts, etc).

-5
#7460 5 years ago

Did you ever hire someone to remodel your kitchen? Half way through they stop showing up and go work on another contract. Do you spend your remaining money going after them to no avail, and your kitchen remains a disaster. Or do you spend your money on a new contractor, get your house back in order, then go after them later. Priorities I would say drove the decision, nothing more.

#7461 5 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

..... DP claims they intended to save money by bouncing on ARA, but we shouldn't forget the time and money spent with Xytech (pre-production costs, trips to China, parts, etc).

?? Where have they stated this wanted to save money ?

If they wanna go to court for this with ÄRA they would have needed to start a bodemprocedure. This as Ära is doing now. This however easily takes a year. Would you have been fine with that news? And even if a judges rules in favor of DP would you wanna accept a pinball built by a company who didn’t want to built it so for sure would have cut corners?

And if you are in court procedures will a new CM touch it? Be also informed that Xytech has seen all info and open books. Still they decided to go ahead. Apparently they saw something convincing.

So this is why DP didn’t do this. And being in the right is something else unfortunately as getting it from a judge

#7462 5 years ago

Not taking any sides but what is ARA’s perspective on this?

Did DP meet their commitment with ARA to finalize and lock down the design by a certain date? You give me 12 months to build 300 pins but then deliver the final design 6 month late, I might take issue with meeting original dates

Cost increases. Doesn’t sound like ARA was playing fair here though...

13
#7463 5 years ago

I think I’m just going to get out of this thread until some actual information comes out.

Right now it is basically like a political argument... two sides talking to each other but not listening. No one is going to change each other’s minds so it is best to wait for court documents or any other real actual info that becomes available.

The problems are so circular it’s impossible (and almost pointless) to decide where they started or where they can end.

#7464 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

Did you ever hire someone to remodel your kitchen? Half way through they stop showing up and go work on another contract. Do you spend your remaining money going after them to no avail, and your kitchen remains a disaster. Or do you spend your money on a new contractor, get your house back in order, then go after them later. Priorities I would say drove the decision, nothing more.

Hiring a remodeling company is still a two way obligation... not something you just free to walk away from. Same situation here.

Missing from the 'contractor failed us...' story being pushed is
- how does it take so long to figure out the work isn't being done? - doesn't pass the sniff test
- how come it takes so long for these disagreements in costs to be brought into view? doesn't pass the sniff test
- why make up a cover story to cover ARA's 'issues'? - again, doesn't pass the sniff test
- ARA completely fails to execute, yet their solution is to offer a buyout of DP?? - again, this doesn't make any sense
- ARA replaces management, and if execution was their fault, they don't simply complete what they were supposed to do? - again, doesn't make any sense

If the problem really was the ARA management, when the parent comes in to cleanup, if they really thought they were on the hook, why wouldn't they work to clean up their obligation?

All these data points point to not ARA failing to execute, but DP failing to know what they got into with ARA... and when the gratuity time expired.. they had no way to settle up with ARA.

Maybe ARA did fail to execute... but sounds like DP wasn't in the position to do anything but go along. And why ARA's parent didn't just fix their 'mistakes'. Contract wise, it sounds like DP was in the weaker spot.

#7465 5 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

?? Where have they stated this wanted to save money ?
If they wanna go to court for this with ÄRA they would have needed to start a bodemprocedure. This as Ära is doing now. This however easily takes a year. Would you have been fine with that news? And even if a judges rules in favor of DP would you wanna accept a pinball built by a company who didn’t want to built it so for sure would have cut corners?
And if you are in court procedures will a new CM touch it? Be also informed that Xytech has seen all info and open books. Still they decided to go ahead. Apparently they saw something convincing.
So this is why DP didn’t do this. And being in the right is something else unfortunately as getting it from a judge

"Save money" can mean several things such as not paying ARA the amount they were demanding or leaving parts, prototypes, and 40 finished games in ARA's warehouse. I admit I could have phrased that differently.

And YES, I would have been much more satisfied had DP proceeded with legal action way back when. It would have showed me they had a pot to pee in. Instead, they spent more money and time going the Xytech route. Here we are 19 months later with no start of production or games. The situation is much worse now.

I don't care who builds it. An empty cabinet would be more than I have now.

#7466 5 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

And I have one advantage over most of you, many hours with Barry which enabled me to get a feeling on the opposite person.

Meaningless. Plenty of people spent plenty of time with John Trudeau, and they didn’t know he was a pedophile/child molester.

You mention Barry a lot. What about Jaap?

#7467 5 years ago

I agree that it's pointless to keep going back and forth. ARA was very good in the beginning of the contract, let's hope they will be good for us again and see the opportunity and negotiate with DP to close the ARA contract. Then DP can continue production with xytech and get all the games to the EA's. And a second or third or forth or all they way up to a tenth set of 300 games can be made for anyone else who wants a TBL around the world.

There is money to be made for sure, if all the passion in this thread is any indication. There's nothing in it for anyone if the game dies before it has a chance to hit the market in large numbers. Good luck to all the EA's, and everyone not in but would like to see the game in production and available to purchase... if you will it Dudes, it is no dream..

#7468 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Hiring a remodeling company is still a two way obligation... not something you just free to walk away from. Same situation here.
Missing from the 'contractor failed us...' story being pushed is
- how does it take so long to figure out the work isn't being done? - doesn't pass the sniff test
- how come it takes so long for these disagreements in costs to be brought into view? doesn't pass the sniff test
- why make up a cover story to cover ARA's 'issues'? - again, doesn't pass the sniff test
- ARA completely fails to execute, yet their solution is to offer a buyout of DP?? - again, this doesn't make any sense
- ARA replaces management, and if execution was their fault, they don't simply complete what they were supposed to do? - again, doesn't make any sense
If the problem really was the ARA management, when the parent comes in to cleanup, if they really thought they were on the hook, why wouldn't they work to clean up their obligation?
All these data points point to not ARA failing to execute, but DP failing to know what they got into with ARA... and when the gratuity time expired.. they had no way to settle up with ARA.
Maybe ARA did fail to execute... but sounds like DP wasn't in the position to do anything but go along. And why ARA's parent didn't just fix their 'mistakes'. Contract wise, it sounds like DP was in the weaker spot.

Exactly.
I sign a 1-year lease with a landlord who promises to paint the exterior of the house before or soon after I move-in. We put that agreement in writing. I'm still legally obligated to continue paying rent on time because it doesn't negate/affect my use or habitability of the home itself. A judge could find me in breach of contract for non-payment if I chose to withhold rent because of the landlord's failure to paint the exterior of the home. I could break the lease and move out, but the landlord could still go after me. I would need to take legal action against the landlord, while still paying my rent on-time every month through the remainder of the lease. The judge would see that I was compliant and order the landlord to finally paint the house if it had yet to be painted. I could then ask the judge for a rebate on the rent paid before the painting, but I certainly couldn't break the lease and move to another home without consequences.

#7469 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

There is money to be made for sure, if all the passion in this thread is any indication. There's nothing in it for anyone if the game dies before it has a chance to hit the market in large numbers. Good luck to all the EA's, and everyone not in but would like to see the game in production and available to purchase... if you will it Dudes, it is no dream..

Agree. It will be a crying shame if TBL and Alien never make it into mass production.

Such great games and theme implementations that actually shipped, unlike the half baked JPOP games.

#7470 5 years ago
Quoted from brainmegaphone:

I think I’m just going to get out of this thread until some actual information comes out.
Right now it is basically like a political argument... two sides talking to each other but not listening. No one is going to change each other’s minds so it is best to wait for court documents or any other real actual info that becomes available.
The problems are so circular it’s impossible (and almost pointless) to decide where they started or where they can end.

Welcome to the "TBL Preorder Club thread". With the exception of Barry's & Jaap's sporadic lacking updates, we have been largely left to speculate and/or commiserate here since DP initially went silent at the end of 2016. Unfortunately, the only thing worse has been the lengthy periods of crickets chirping while everyone waited for the latest "news" from DP.

#7471 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

Did you ever hire someone to remodel your kitchen? Half way through they stop showing up and go work on another contract. Do you spend your remaining money going after them to no avail, and your kitchen remains a disaster. Or do you spend your money on a new contractor, get your house back in order, then go after them later. Priorities I would say drove the decision, nothing more.

Kitchen remodel And multi-million dollar deals with hundreds of OTHER PEOPLES MONEY are 2 different things.

#7472 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

I agree that it's pointless to keep going back and forth. ARA was very good in the beginning of the contract, let's hope they will be good for us again and see the opportunity and negotiate with DP to close the ARA contract. Then DP can continue production with xytech and get all the games to the EA's. And a second or third or forth or all they way up to a tenth set of 300 games can be made for anyone else who wants a TBL around the world.
There is money to be made for sure, if all the passion in this thread is any indication. There's nothing in it for anyone if the game dies before it has a chance to hit the market in large numbers. Good luck to all the EA's, and everyone not in but would like to see the game in production and available to purchase... if you will it Dudes, it is no dream..

Sadly, It's already dead. You can wish in one hand and shit in the other, which one fills up first?

#7473 5 years ago

I'll be back in 8-9 months to see if DP ever did get back on track. I highly doubt it though. See ya!

#7474 5 years ago

Do we the “Investers” not have a say... A representative of the EA’s should be in the room of court/ ARA DP discussions.

All depends if EAs would pay another 1K per machine or loose 8K completely!

I put this to DP when this first happened...and they refused. Now we have lost it all!

#7475 5 years ago

Another thing.. the legal counsel DP have.. are they any good? Do they cost money, or are they a no win no fee kinda thing.. what I’m saying is would a company take on this case unless there was a strong chance of winning it!

#7476 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

...
You mention Barry a lot. What about Jaap?

My relation with DP is mostly with Barry.

Barry and me are part of the editor team of the magazine of the Dutch Pinball Association (approx 1200 members, biggest pinballclub in the world , appears 4 times a year called the Spinner) thus we already met and spoke on a regular basis and 1 conversation leads to another and another and .... I didn’t buy a TBL like most of you because of the theme but because it was Dutch and made by Barry. It’s that simple.

Ofcourse I know Jaap but again, mostly Barry.

#7477 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

Hey RTR, For me it's only a numbers game - the numbers are still leaning heavily in our favor that DP will come out on top and deliver all the games to the EA's. ARA's numbers are extremely bad as the CM for TBL so that's good for DP in a big way.

You must smoke the good stuff over there.

#7478 5 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

My relation with DP is mostly with Barry.
Barry and me are part of the editor team of the magazine of the Dutch Pinball Association (approx 1200 members, biggest pinballclub in the world , appears 4 times a year called the Spinner) thus we already met and spoke on a regular basis and 1 conversation leads to another and another and .... I didn’t buy a TBL like most of you because of the theme but because it was Dutch and made by Barry. It’s that simple.
Ofcourse I know Jaap but again, mostly Barry.

Sure - but we can't deny Jaap is half of DP, and in my opinion some of the more detrimental decisions have been made by him. From my experiences and interactions, I also think Barry's a nice guy. Jaap's been very nice to me, too. However - very often in life, the way people are personally is very different from how they are privately or in business.

#7479 5 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

and 1 conversation leads to another and another and ...

...boom! You locked lips.

<KIDDING!>

#7480 5 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

I'll be back in 8-9 months to see if DP ever did get back on track. I highly doubt it though. See ya!

Hey man, you started this thread!

#7481 5 years ago

Rensh Will any of the court documents be publicly available over there? Usually you can get a copy of the complaint here in the states.

Also, it would be great to get copies of the counter suit from DP and post them here for everyone. Neither of these would likely be covered under any sort of NDA and both will come out eventually. I say the sooner it comes out the better.

Perhaps you could ask Barry for a copy of both documents. If so, it would be informative to translate and post on this thread. That would be the first real information we would have ever received.

13
#7482 5 years ago

People who still think these games will ship:

DPfans2018 (resized).jpgDPfans2018 (resized).jpg

#7483 5 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

The more I read this thread, the more convinced I am that people may be confusing contract manufacturing with other contract services. Given that ARA is in that business and DP isn't, the contract is likely favorable to ARA. Meaning, full pass-through of BOM costs plus a 'comfortable' standard burden rate to cover labor, COLA and exchange rate protection along with rock solid change control. Change something and everything gets reset. Speculation? No doubt; however, it seems likely that ARA would have had the upper hand in the initial contract negotiation and included the appropriate t's and c's to pass as much risk as possible to DP.

Do you have a lot of experience with CM contracts?

I have a couple of decades with software contracting in the millions of dollars. No question that our contracts always had rock solid change control, but that didn't mean /everything/ got reset. Nobody would agree to that. And our contract generally favored us.

I doubt that COLA or BOM costs were the issue.

It feels like this is all about labor costs. Either actual production of the units, or in having to redesign components. Estimation is notoriously difficult to estimate in my industry (software). I doubt it's easier in manufacturing.

Tracking down and fixing design issues is really expensive in software, it must be even more expensive with actual hardware.

There is a big grey area around the design and assembly of the machine. Perhaps some serious design flaws were uncovered after the first 40 were made. Changes were required. Who pays for that? ARA could say DP, because it's a change. DP could say ARA should pay because ARA made the mistakes and delivered a product that was defective. So who is right? The contract may /say/ that changes have to be paid for, but how about having to change defects?

#7484 5 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Exactly.
I sign a 1-year lease with a landlord who promises to paint the exterior of the house before or soon after I move-in. We put that agreement in writing. I'm still legally obligated to continue paying rent on time because it doesn't negate/affect my use or habitability of the home itself. A judge could find me in breach of contract for non-payment if I chose to withhold rent because of the landlord's failure to paint the exterior of the home. I could break the lease and move out, but the landlord could still go after me. I would need to take legal action against the landlord, while still paying my rent on-time every month through the remainder of the lease. The judge would see that I was compliant and order the landlord to finally paint the house if it had yet to be painted. I could then ask the judge for a rebate on the rent paid before the painting, but I certainly couldn't break the lease and move to another home without consequences.

This isn't necessarily the case. No matter what you'd still have to pay the rent while you occupying the home, but I think you'd have a good case to break the lease.

Particularly if the agreement was part of the lease, it would depend on how the lease was written. But a judge could agree that the contract was breached and the lease is not valid.

Also, but at least in my part of the country, a renter can deduct rent and hire contractors to fix major issues if the landlord fails to get certain things fixed within a reasonable amount of time.

This all unfortunately has nothing to do with contract law in the Netherlands, though.

#7485 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

- how does it take so long to figure out the work isn't being done? - doesn't pass the sniff test
- how come it takes so long for these disagreements in costs to be brought into view? doesn't pass the sniff test
- why make up a cover story to cover ARA's 'issues'? - again, doesn't pass the sniff test

Using a 'sniff test' isn't a good idea in contract law or in trying to figure out how people or businesses work. It's about as useful as applying 'common sense' to the stock market or quantum mechanics.

Covering for your CM's mistakes I'd see as a natural response. I mean really, how would you respond if Samsung said, 'oh sorry yeah our phones are catching fire but that's the fault of our contractor FooBarCo.' No, you suck it up and take the blame, or as many companies do, pass a few white lies while you try to make it right with your contractor.

You have to move on and try to focus on a good product. A lot of times the problems are addressed and they become non-issues. If you focus on the PR instead of fixing the product, particularly in a small company, you're screwed.

Quoted from flynnibus:

- ARA completely fails to execute, yet their solution is to offer a buyout of DP?? - again, this doesn't make any sense

Did they completely fail to execute? It seems to me that they executed but demanded more money /or else/.

Quoted from flynnibus:

- ARA replaces management, and if execution was their fault, they don't simply complete what they were supposed to do? - again, doesn't make any sense
If the problem really was the ARA management, when the parent comes in to cleanup, if they really thought they were on the hook, why wouldn't they work to clean up their obligation?

Again, it doesn't seem that execution was the issue. Costs seem to be the issue.

There are countless examples of people doing a piss-poor job as contractors, having lousy management with lousy upper management oversight and an even lousier parent company. The 'fix' is to replace the piss-poor staff with equally piss-poor staff.

Quoted from flynnibus:

All these data points point to not ARA failing to execute, but DP failing to know what they got into with ARA... and when the gratuity time expired.. they had no way to settle up with ARA.

Again again, it seems to be cost, not execution.

It's certainly possible that they didn't understand the finer points of the contract they entered into, and that is now coming back to bite them hard. I don't know how contract disputes are handled in the Netherlands, though. I bet they're much different than here in the states.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Maybe ARA did fail to execute... but sounds like DP wasn't in the position to do anything but go along. And why ARA's parent didn't just fix their 'mistakes'. Contract wise, it sounds like DP was in the weaker spot.

Again again again, cost not execution.

They may not have wanted to spend their limited energy on lawsuits and instead focus on a product, believing that ARA would not actually sue them. This does happen all the time in business.

And also, some people just don't want to sue. A relative of mine was screwed out of a lot of money by his employer, who is doing quite well. He refused to even speak with an attorney on the grounds that he didn't want to be seen in the community as being 'that guy who sued XXX.' He could have ended up with mid six figures, but his own standards and how he would be viewed in the world were more important to him.

#7486 5 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

This isn't necessarily the case. No matter what you'd still have to pay the rent while you occupying the home, but I think you'd have a good case to break the lease.
Particularly if the agreement was part of the lease, it would depend on how the lease was written. But a judge could agree that the contract was breached and the lease is not valid.
Also, but at least in my part of the country, a renter can deduct rent and hire contractors to fix major issues if the landlord fails to get certain things fixed within a reasonable amount of time.
This all unfortunately has nothing to do with contract law in the Netherlands, though.

Paint is not a major habitability issue like no heat or water. The point of the analogy is that ARA manufactured 50-90 games. Based on feedback from EAs, there weren't any significant quality issues that would hold the line, unless it had to do with the boards. Why do you think DP used this as the excuse back in late 2016? We know there wasn't an issue with the board(s). How was one batch good and the next bad? What could've changed? NOTHING. ARA wouldn't be going after DP or demanding more money if the boards were an issue.

I can't think of any justified reason why they'd stop production after 90 games other than payment. ARA may have been late on schedule but that doesn't negate DP's obligation to pay for those 90 games or the 300 that were agreed upon.

I could see renegotiation after the 300 games, but not after 90 games. DP claims ARA has parts and materials for 300 games, so this says DP and ARA intended to build 300 (less depending on whether some of those parts were designated for service/replacement purposes). Is it wrong to assume they did a contract for 250-300 games?

No one has provided any facts to support this wasn't a monetary dispute. There would be no dispute and ARA wouldn't have "summoned" DP had they been paid. We had a chance to get these games back on the line when negotiations were being held in early 2017. Here we are a year later and no games. As others have stated, this was more about DP's own welfare and not its customers. We now have to pay for their missteps. Giving ARA the impression (and opportunity) to demand more money was a major misstep.

#7487 5 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Paint is not a major habitability issue like no heat or water. The point of the analogy is that ARA manufactured 50-90 games. Based on feedback from EAs, there weren't any significant quality issues that would hold the line, unless it had to do with the boards. Why do you think DP used this as the excuse back in late 2016? We know there wasn't an issue with the board(s). How was one batch good and the next bad? What could've changed? NOTHING. ARA wouldn't be going after DP or demanding more money if the boards were an issue.
I can't think of any reason why they'd stop production after 90 games. ARA may have been late on schedule but that doesn't negate DP's obligation to pay for those 90 games or the 300 that were agreed upon.
I could see renegotiation after the 300 games, but not after 90 games. DP claims ARA has parts and materials for 300 games, so this says DP and ARA intended to build 300 games. Is it wrong to assume they did a contract for 300 games? No one has provided any facts to support this wasn't a monetary dispute.
There would be no dispute and ARA wouldn't have "summoned" DP had they been paid. We had a chance to get these games back on the line when negotiations were being held in early 2017. Here we are a year later and no games. As others have stated, this was more about DP's own welfare and not its customers. We now have to pay for their missteps. Giving ARA the impression (and opportunity) to demand more money was a major misstep.

Don't waste your time with Donnie, I don't think he's even seen the movie.

#7488 5 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Paint is not a major habitability issue like no heat or water. The point of the analogy is that ARA manufactured 50-90 games.

Paint is a bad analogy... as I pointed out. Even so you would have a case to break the lease early on non-performance.

Quoted from highdef:

What could've changed?

I can think of many things and have posted them. We don’t know.

Quoted from highdef:

I can't think of any justified reason why they'd stop production after 90 games other than payment.

Except ARA demanding more money.

Quoted from highdef:

ARA may have been late on schedule but that doesn't negate DP's obligation to pay for those 90 games or the 300 that were agreed upon.

Actually, it very well might. I don’t think you understand that if one party fails to perform or deliver the contract may be breached. Null. Void. Some payment may be required, but without the contract we don’t know.

Quoted from highdef:

I could see renegotiation after the 300 games, but not after 90 games.

That’s not the way contracts work.

Quoted from highdef:

No one has provided any facts to support this wasn't a monetary dispute.

Nor any other facts. A lack of facts, rather obviously does not make your case.

Quoted from highdef:

There would be no dispute and ARA wouldn't have "summoned" DP had they been paid.

This would always be true... even in a contract dispute, which I believe is going on here.

Quoted from highdef:

As others have stated, this was more about DP's own welfare and not its customers.

That is one of many ways of looking at this.

It is a logical fallacy to claim something is right just because others say so. A lot of people say the world is flat.

Quoted from highdef:

Giving ARA the impression (and opportunity) to demand more money was a major misstep.

I don’t understand what you mean. You think ARA demanded more money because DP gave the impression they would suck it up? I thought you claimed this was about DP somehow willfully holding back paying ARA for some mysterious reason (other than non-performance / breach of contract) — even though they had money in the bank. I mean who would do that?

If you are sitting on cash, full payment for 50 or 100 or 200 games, what rational reason would cause you NOT to pay? Answer: breach of contract.

#7489 5 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

If you are sitting on cash, full payment for 50 or 100 or 200 games, what rational reason would cause you NOT to pay? Answer: breach of contract.

Because they spent the money. Did not have it to pay ARA.

#7490 5 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Paint is a bad analogy... as I pointed out. Even so you would have a case to break the lease early on non-performance.

I'm going to pretend that you're right.

Quoted from Brijam:

I don’t think you understand that if one party fails to perform or deliver the contract may be breached. Null. Void.

Come on man. Do you really believe that DP paid for those games sitting in ARA's warehouse? If so, why haven't they shipped?

Quoted from Brijam:

That’s not the way contracts work.

Whatever you say. Do you have money on this game?

Quoted from Brijam:

I don’t understand what you mean. You think ARA demanded more money because DP gave the impression they would suck it up? I thought you claimed this was about DP somehow willfully holding back paying ARA for some mysterious reason (other than non-performance / breach of contract) — even though they had money in the bank. I mean who would do that?

You're being thickheaded. DP doesn't have money in the bank.

Quoted from Brijam:

If you are sitting on cash, full payment for 50 or 100 or 200 games, what rational reason would cause you NOT to pay?

What are you talking about?! Again, DP isn't sitting on cash! Our money would have been refunded by now. If they had cash, Xytech would be pumping out TBLs right now while DP worked it out with ARA.

Quoted from Brijam:

Answer: breach of contract.

You're saying ARA breached the contract and I'm saying DP breached the contract. Let's leave it at that.

#7491 5 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Come on man. Do you really believe that DP paid for those games sitting in ARA's warehouse? If so, why haven't they shipped?

I've never even remotely claimed that DP paid for the pins allegedly in ARA's warehouse.

Anyway, it doesn't matter what I believe.

Maybe you should re-read what I wrote, because it's not at all that.

Quoted from highdef:

Whatever you say. Do you have money on this game?

I have no money on this game. Played it at the PNW show a couple years back, loved it. I love pinball. I know a little bit about business and contracting. That's it.

Do you think that a contract must be honored /by law/ even if the other party fails to honor it?

Quoted from highdef:

You're being thickheaded. DP doesn't have money in the bank.

Hey. You're mad... but I'm not affiliated with DP, and I didn't take your money. I'm not even Dutch, FFS!

It is against the policies of this forum to insult other people. I find what you wrote personally insulting. Stop it.

I don't know what the company finances are and neither do you.

Quoted from highdef:

What are you talking about?! Again, DP isn't sitting on cash! Our money would have been refunded by now. If they had cash, Xytech would be pumping out TBLs right now while DP worked it out with ARA.

Again again, we don't know that.

But why would a second CM build a prototype if there wasn't money? They don't work on fairies and rainbows. They have access to the Internet and would do due diligence before starting to work with a new client. Maybe they were given access to information we were not?

Ask yourself is it more likely that:
1) DP are magical wizards who can talk an experienced Chinese CM into making pins without money
2) DP has enough money or hard evidence to convince an experienced Chinese CM to make pins

Quoted from highdef:

You're saying ARA breached the contract and I'm saying DP breached the contract. Let's leave it at that.

Yes, it's possible that ARA breached, or that they both breached.

#7492 5 years ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

Because they spent the money. Did not have it to pay ARA.

That's sure possible.

But then why would CM #2 work with DP if they had no money or they didn't have a compelling case?

#7493 5 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

1) DP are magical wizards who can talk an experienced Chinese CM into making pins without money

Well, they CONvinced over 200 (?) experienced Pinball collectors into giving them huge sums of money without pins. So anything’s possible.

If nothing else, DP were skilled and convincing salesmen. Convincing a contract manufacturer would be well within their sales skills.

#7494 5 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

I have a couple of decades with software contracting in the millions of dollars. No question that our contracts always had rock solid change control, but that didn't mean /everything/ got reset. Nobody would agree to that. And our contract generally favored us.

Don't want to get into a pissing contest around experience. I'll just leave it as I have extensive experience running consulting organizations and have seen change management processes in myriad contracts and in use from many, many companies. I've never seen a change management process that that did not provide for the ability to modify schedule based upon the nature of the change. In fact, the analysis for any requested change includes cost and schedule impact. Doesn't mean there is always an impact to schedule but it is definitely evaluated. Remember too, this is a two-way street. Client requests a change, the analysis is performed and a change order is produced. The client has the right to sign off or not. The contract simply provides the mechanism. DP saying they agreed to a $1000 change reads to me like: A change was requested, a change order was produced, the change order signed by DP.

#7495 5 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

That's sure possible.
But then why would CM #2 work with DP if they had no money or they didn't have a compelling case?

They are not 'working with' DP in the sense that ARA was working with DP. ARA agreed to front funds to a certain extent and then receive payment when product was finished.

I believe Jaap used to work for Xytech in a previous job, so he had a relationship there. So far all Xytech has done is what DP had money to do - provide some engineering samples and let DP take pictures of their Chinese factory.

The process was stalled because Xytech was unwilling to front funds for production (like ARA) and DP was trying to find financing. DP is/was hoping for a deus ex machina moment, but so far to no avail.

You comment way above your familiarity with this story. I'm not sure you are really adding to the general discussion.

trash can (resized).jpgtrash can (resized).jpg

#7496 5 years ago

Jack was willing to build Skit-B's second machine. It seems a lot of aspiring pinball companies love designing pinball, but the manufacturing part is a nightmare. It seems like it would be such a better strategy to create a working alliance with an existing pinball manufacturer, instead of trying to bring on board some outside CM.

That would be my recommendation to anyone who gets the pinball bug again.

#7497 5 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

DP is/was hoping for a deus ex machina moment, but so far to no avail.

From Wikipedia: "Deus ex machina (Latin) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly and abruptly resolved by an unexpected and seemingly unlikely occurrence, typically to the point of being perceived as a contrived plot point. Its function can be to resolve an otherwise irresolvable plot situation, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or act as a comedic device".

I had to look it up and thought I'd share. (Well done RT)

#7498 5 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

From Wikipedia: "Deus ex machina (Latin) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly and abruptly resolved by an unexpected and seemingly unlikely occurrence, typically to the point of being perceived as a contrived plot point. Its function can be to resolve an otherwise irresolvable plot situation, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or act as a comedic device".
I had to look it up and thought I'd share. (Well done RT)

In the case of DP, they would hope it most likely resembles something like this.

dodgeball deux (resized).jpgdodgeball deux (resized).jpg

#7499 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Jack was willing to build Skit-B's second machine.

Really?? Presumably that was before all the shit broke about him not having the Predator license.

What was the second game?

#7500 5 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

What was the second game?

Experts of Dangerous. Licensed by the two guys from Mythbusters.

zzzz newgameroundup1 (resized).jpgzzzz newgameroundup1 (resized).jpg

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