(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)

By Nilroc

9 years ago


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#7401 5 years ago

Yeah I am #187 so I am thinking I am toast. I also agree that trying to bankrupt them (which they most likely already are) is counterproductive to any positive outcome. I mean if there are other EA's out there that are looking to all get together to do something, then I am in, but l tried that a bit ago and only got one response. Well I guess I will just keep checking out this thread and hope for the best!

19
#7402 5 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

It's odd that people are starting to think they shouldn't have taken salaries. How were they supposed to eat?

No, it is 100% not odd to take ZERO salary the 1st couple of years for a new business. The second you start paying yourself when a company has not made a single dime is when you start the spiral downward. Relying on presales to fund a new business is a death sentence.

I opened my Auto Repair Shop April of 2016 and fully prepared myself that taking any money as compensation/salary wouldn't happen until AFTER the 2nd year in operation. I planned out how I was going to eat, pay my mortgage, and anything else life threw at me. I was wrong, in a good way, I was able to pay myself starting about 6 months ago. One of the major reasons 80% on new businesses fail, piss poor management and cost control.

#7403 5 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

No, it is 100% not odd to take ZERO salary the 1st couple of years for a new business. The second you start paying yourself when a company has not made a single dime is when you start the spiral downward. Relying on presales to fund a new business is a death sentence.
I opened my Auto Repair Shop April of 2016 and fully prepared myself that taking any money as compensation/salary wouldn't happen until AFTER the 2nd year in operation. I planned out how I was going to eat, pay my mortgage, and anything else life threw at me. I was wrong, in a good way, I was able to pay myself starting about 6 months ago. One of the major reasons 80% on new businesses fail, piss poor management and cost control.

Hey congratulations on a successful auto repair shop! That's a hard business to make money on with a massive amount of up-front cost in tools, location, promotion and knowledge.

And no question that a lot of founders defer salary at startup. I've founded over a dozen companies, many times I deferred my salary.

Context though. It's important. I have no idea what or if they paid themselves when they started. I was talking about /after/ they'd started producing machines with CM#1.

I tried to see it from their point of view --- when the decisions were made. Not now. But in that moment.

Say you own a fledgling pinball company and it looks like you have a hit on your hands. You've done the hard work (you think) - secured the license, designed the machine, gotten recognized, and people are throwing money at you. You have a contract with a fixed price and therefore a known profit, and a lot of orders with cash paid.

Putting myself in their shoes /at that point/ those are sales. Those are not pre-orders. They're not delivered, but they're sales. And honestly, at that point you start putting some of your attention towards the next product, because you have to.

Anyway for me, that's a long ways from "not made a single dime." With 50 or a hundred machines ordered and paid for I would absolutely start taking salary at that point, based on the profit margin and how many machines I felt I could deliver over time.

#7404 5 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

I can understand a very modest salary while your company is getting off the ground and while you are performing full time work for said company. My beef is taking a salary while nothing is happening. Nothing has been happening for most of the 4 plus years now. Attending to self-inflicted wounds is not a legitimate use of 'salary'.

We don't know they kept drawing a salary, and from where I'm sitting it looks like something was happening -- they got a second CM to produce a machine in China. That's a first AFAIK, and not an easy thing to do.

Candidly I feel like your arguments lose a lot of power when you make statements like "nothing was happening for most of the 4 plus years." Clearly things have been happening. They haven't been happening fast enough for, well anyone I expect.

Quoted from RTR:

How long do you think one should take a 'salary' from loaned money under those circumstances? What would your bank say about using your line of credit in this manner. (hint, they would say no.). The EA's are/were the bank. So I can say whatever the hell I want about misuse of these funds.

See this is what I'm talking about. Of course you can say whatever the hell you want.

That doesn't make you right.

All you are doing is confusing the issue. This doesn't add power to your claim.

You didn't loan DP money. You ordered a pinball machine. You are a customer. Not a bank. Not an equity partner.

You haven't received your pinball machine. That sucks. I would be livid. But the reality is that your recourse is limited at this point.

Regarding lines of credit, I often used my business line of credit for payroll. That is absolutely a permitted use.

Quoted from RTR:

I understand traveling and promoting your product when you need the sales. Not when you have a backorder of hundreds of units and you need to conserve cash. Not to promote a dumbass non-TBL idea (BOP 25). Not to engage another CM when you haven't resolved the situation with your current CM.

We have to agree to disagree on this one probably. The time to start working on a new product depends on a lot of things, but given the long amount of time it takes to design and field a new pin, and the relatively short sales cycle of a pin, I'd say they were doing the right thing to have another product lined up post TBL.

I have no comment about whether or not BOP 25 was good or bad. Never played it and don't know much about it, apart from liking BOP 2.0).

It seems reasonable to me to pursue a second CM if your first one won't produce machines at a price you committed to sell them for.

Quoted from RTR:

Just because something starts out feeling legit does not mean it didn't take a turn somewhere into scam territory - intentionally or unintentionally.

No, a scam has to be intentional to be a scam. Let's call things what they are. They did a piss-poor job of communicating, they may have made some very bad business decisions. I'm not seeing a scam.

Quoted from RTR:

What is the difference, at this point, between what Jpop did with investors money and what DP has done and is doing?

Well, I'm sure there are people better qualified with the whole Jpop thing but just to run down the notable differences that jump out at me:

0) I own and enjoy quite a few old Jpop games. But I don't recall reading a good review of Magic Girl, though it's hard to say since it really wasn't finished, was it? On the other hand, TBL is widely regarded as a very good pin. Not just a good one. A very good one. This is significant, because intent to sell a hit is very different from intent to sell a game that may turn out great if I just had another million or two dollars.

1) From what I have read didn't Jpop have a history of selling pre-orders for several pins that weren't delivered? Didn't he only deliver something like 10 Magic Girls, and they weren't really finished or playable? At least that's what I understand a court to have determined. I think the court found a history of a failure to deliver, and an attempt to deliver a non-working product as a working product. In contrast with DP which looks like a contract dispute that we don't know much about at all.

2) I also understand that Jpop was asking for pre-order money much more aggressively. I contrast that with DP, who once they found out that their CM couldn't deliver, refused money even though people were throwing it at them. I don't see an intent to defraud people from DP. If defrauding was their goal, I'd expect them to have been standing next to their Chinese TBL with an order book in hand at the shows they went to, and I don't believe that happened.

3) I don't think Jpop had a contract with a CM - wasn't his plan to build them in his basement or something as a boutique, turning out just a few copies of each title? I may be mixed up about that. If that's the case, the failure would seem to point much more to Jpop. Again, in DP's case there is an unsettled dispute with a CM that stopped making machines for reasons we don't know.

4) I'm unaware of the state of Jpop's ability to manufacture more Magic Girls. Perhaps with Deeproot's backing, Magic Girl can be completed and rolled out. However, with DP there is a completed pin that works great: TBL. The sample from CM#2 appears and plays identical to the production machines from CM#1. It looks like TBL's could roll off the line /if/ this contract dispute is settled.

I find these differences substantial.

#7405 5 years ago

I retired from a major CM. When a project went sour all specialized tooling was scrapped for surplus. Any Trademark items we didn't hold the rights to were destroyed. All remaining parts were auctioned/ scrapped/destroyed.
A class-action suit from all pre-pays staking a claim on remaining machines/parts is the only choice.
Without a singular cohesive voice from those who allowed and made the first machines happen through pre-payment ARA will be forced to destroy any plastics, glass, cabinets and play fields displaying copyrighted artwork.
That is the way it went with us.
Those who paid have the strongest case to claim ownership over the remaining projects ARA holds.
This stock is all that is important, everything else is could be or what if. This stock is all that is tangible and should be saved from the dumpster.
ARA seeks the Rights to the Art, the last viable thing Dutch Pinball seems to hold. Many times these judgments come down to destroying the remnants and starting over.

#7406 5 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

No, it is 100% not odd to take ZERO salary the 1st couple of years for a new business.

You are also trying to use labor logic from the USA - things are different in europe with labor and compensation.

#7407 5 years ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

I retired from a major CM. When a project went sour all specialized tooling was scrapped for surplus. Any Trademark items we didn't hold the rights to were destroyed. All remaining parts were auctioned/ scrapped/destroyed.
A class-action suit from all pre-pays staking a claim on remaining machines/parts is the only choice.
Without a singular cohesive voice from those who allowed and made the first machines happen through pre-payment ARA will be forced to destroy any plastics, glass, cabinets and play fields displaying copyrighted artwork.
That is the way it went with us.
Those who paid have the strongest case to claim ownership over the remaining projects ARA holds.
This stock is all that is important, everything else is could be or what if. This stock is all that is tangible and should be saved from the dumpster.
ARA seeks the Rights to the Art, the last viable thing Dutch Pinball seems to hold. Many times these judgments come down to destroying the remnants and starting over.

That's brutal. So whatever complete and partially complete games ARA has will possibly(probably) be destroyed. OUCH.

#7408 5 years ago

What I am reading is that ARA’s only hope to salvage their investment is to force DP to accept their offer. Without that, ARA has no hope of recouping anything. Sounds like DP holds the ball to me.

#7409 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

You are also trying to use labor logic from the USA - things are different in europe with labor and compensation.

Employees get paid, doesn't matter where you are. Ownership chooses to be paid and reaps rewards/profits(if any). I would find that universal? No? European Laws that you MUST compensate yourself?

-4
#7410 5 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

We don't know they kept drawing a salary, and from where I'm sitting it looks like something was happening -- they got a second CM to produce a machine in China. That's a first AFAIK, and not an easy thing to do.
Candidly I feel like your arguments lose a lot of power when you make statements like "nothing was happening for most of the 4 plus years." Clearly things have been happening. They haven't been happening fast enough for, well anyone I expect.

See this is what I'm talking about. Of course you can say whatever the hell you want.
That doesn't make you right.
All you are doing is confusing the issue. This doesn't add power to your claim.
You didn't loan DP money. You ordered a pinball machine. You are a customer. Not a bank. Not an equity partner.
You haven't received your pinball machine. That sucks. I would be livid. But the reality is that your recourse is limited at this point.
Regarding lines of credit, I often used my business line of credit for payroll. That is absolutely a permitted use.

We have to agree to disagree on this one probably. The time to start working on a new product depends on a lot of things, but given the long amount of time it takes to design and field a new pin, and the relatively short sales cycle of a pin, I'd say they were doing the right thing to have another product lined up post TBL.
I have no comment about whether or not BOP 25 was good or bad. Never played it and don't know much about it, apart from liking BOP 2.0).
It seems reasonable to me to pursue a second CM if your first one won't produce machines at a price you committed to sell them for.

No, a scam has to be intentional to be a scam. Let's call things what they are. They did a piss-poor job of communicating, they may have made some very bad business decisions. I'm not seeing a scam.

Well, I'm sure there are people better qualified with the whole Jpop thing but just to run down the notable differences that jump out at me:
0) I own and enjoy quite a few old Jpop games. But I don't recall reading a good review of Magic Girl, though it's hard to say since it really wasn't finished, was it? On the other hand, TBL is widely regarded as a very good pin. Not just a good one. A very good one. This is significant, because intent to sell a hit is very different from intent to sell a game that may turn out great if I just had another million or two dollars.
1) From what I have read didn't Jpop have a history of selling pre-orders for several pins that weren't delivered? Didn't he only deliver something like 10 Magic Girls, and they weren't really finished or playable? At least that's what I understand a court to have determined. I think the court found a history of a failure to deliver, and an attempt to deliver a non-working product as a working product. In contrast with DP which looks like a contract dispute that we don't know much about at all.
2) I also understand that Jpop was asking for pre-order money much more aggressively. I contrast that with DP, who once they found out that their CM couldn't deliver, refused money even though people were throwing it at them. I don't see an intent to defraud people from DP. If defrauding was their goal, I'd expect them to have been standing next to their Chinese TBL with an order book in hand at the shows they went to, and I don't believe that happened.
3) I don't think Jpop had a contract with a CM - wasn't his plan to build them in his basement or something as a boutique, turning out just a few copies of each title? I may be mixed up about that. If that's the case, the failure would seem to point much more to Jpop. Again, in DP's case there is an unsettled dispute with a CM that stopped making machines for reasons we don't know.
4) I'm unaware of the state of Jpop's ability to manufacture more Magic Girls. Perhaps with Deeproot's backing, Magic Girl can be completed and rolled out. However, with DP there is a completed pin that works great: TBL. The sample from CM#2 appears and plays identical to the production machines from CM#1. It looks like TBL's could roll off the line /if/ this contract dispute is settled.
I find these differences substantial.

Man, you spent a shitload of time on that post for someone with no skin in this game. Someone summarize what this rugless person thinks about the situation please.

#7411 5 years ago

I hadn't been to Pinside for a week and this is my most closely followed thread (only have a $1000 deposit with Nitro but really want this to be a thing) so I was surprised to see over 400 new posts! I read them all. Wow. I don't have anything constructive to contribute so

#7412 5 years ago

Lots of chatter about whether DP 'had to pay themselves' or not. Sorry guys, we had no choice! We hated it, but had to to take the money!!

So I posted the question on Quora and solicited people from the Netherlands on the matter. Here is the first response from a guy in Ommen, Netherlands:

https://www.quora.com/If-you-own-a-startup-business-in-the-Netherlands-is-it-true-that-you-have-to-draw-salary-from-it-even-if-the-business-is-not-producing-product

I will let you know if more people respond. Looks like they didn't 'have' to set this up to benefit them so much.

#7413 5 years ago

The last ditch effort back and forth here

Final stage of denial

Nothing else to say

#7414 5 years ago
Quoted from titanpenguin:

What I am reading is that ARA’s only hope to salvage their investment is to force DP to accept their offer. Without that, ARA has no hope of recouping anything. Sounds like DP holds the ball to me.

DP holds nothing. ARA had a business building other stuff before DP & will continue after DP. DP has nothing without someone to build games for them.

-3
#7415 5 years ago

RTR, In summary, Brijam posted "take it easy man, nothing is fu@ked here" ... Keep posting Brijam -I like your style Dude

#7416 5 years ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

I retired from a major CM. When a project went sour all specialized tooling was scrapped for surplus. Any Trademark items we didn't hold the rights to were destroyed. All remaining parts were auctioned/ scrapped/destroyed.
A class-action suit from all pre-pays staking a claim on remaining machines/parts is the only choice.
Without a singular cohesive voice from those who allowed and made the first machines happen through pre-payment ARA will be forced to destroy any plastics, glass, cabinets and play fields displaying copyrighted artwork.

Thank you. Without my having direct knowledge, this is the concern I was fumbling with a couple of days ago about ARA's inability to simply selling those machines.

#7417 5 years ago

I double checked and by Dutch law you have to take approx 45KEUR annual salary, or at least pay the taxes on it. Only in very special circumstances you can ask for a lower salary. This to be determined by the tax department.

Looking at the personal taking a salary there is first of all programmer Koen who was just a regular employee. Nobody will say he shouldn’t have gotten a salary I assume.

Leaves Barry and Jaap. Starting (or trying to start is perhaps better here) a pinball company is typical not a part time job you do in the evening. So if you do this full time from start 2014? where do you live from? And remember, if ÄRA would have worked according to contract deliveries would have taken place in 2015/16. Their business strategy must have been based on that schedule where calculations based on profit from delivered tbl’s showed the possibility of a salary which they needed to be able to try this. And again, at that moment no signs this would be impossible.

I realize it doesn’t feel fair that we EA get , perhaps to likely, nothing while they had a salary. Also I am struggling with this but business wise it’s how it is.

#7418 5 years ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

I retired from a major CM. When a project went sour all specialized tooling was scrapped for surplus. Any Trademark items we didn't hold the rights to were destroyed. All remaining parts were auctioned/ scrapped/destroyed.
A class-action suit from all pre-pays staking a claim on remaining machines/parts is the only choice.
Without a singular cohesive voice from those who allowed and made the first machines happen through pre-payment ARA will be forced to destroy any plastics, glass, cabinets and play fields displaying copyrighted artwork.
That is the way it went with us.
Those who paid have the strongest case to claim ownership over the remaining projects ARA holds.
This stock is all that is important, everything else is could be or what if. This stock is all that is tangible and should be saved from the dumpster.
ARA seeks the Rights to the Art, the last viable thing Dutch Pinball seems to hold. Many times these judgments come down to destroying the remnants and starting over.

I agree with most of this. I think it's very unlikely Universal will allow ARA to liquidate how ever many games and what ever copyrighted stock they are holding, even if they do win judgements against DP.

Per my earlier post, IMO the idea is to force DP into liquidation (with or without a win in court), by pursuing legal action, then claim the rights to art, design and software and sell it off to someone who's interested in manufacturing it. Problem with that is, I doubt there'll be much interest due to the cloud of issues, and therefore money raised will be far lower than they're probably seeking.

Re: Sharpe. He confirmed on a podcast appearance last year that he'd extended the license for DP. This has been covered several times now.

#7419 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

DP holds nothing. ARA had a business building other stuff before DP & will continue after DP. DP has nothing without someone to build games for them.

It's worse than that. DP holds less than nothing. They require financial assistance to make this happen now because of their gross mismanagement. And no one will lend them the money.

#7420 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

DP holds nothing. ARA had a business building other stuff before DP & will continue after DP. DP has nothing without someone to build games for them.

I mostly agree with this. DP has IP on a pinball machine but no machines or whatever to built stuff. If they would be liquidated there would be some Engineering TBL samples to be sold plus some PC’s I guess and ofcourse the IP on the TBL design and software. The latter is only worth something for somebody wanted to produce TBL (AP , Deeproot, Spooky?). Not much to get there.

Only hope left is DP winning not only the courtcase but also getting out of it a good settlement from ÄRA. Big enough to either start building TBL or refund everybody.

#7421 5 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I double checked and by Dutch law you have to take approx 45KEUR annual salary, or at least pay the taxes on it. Only in very special circumstances you can ask for a lower salary. This to be determined by the tax department.
Looking at the personal taking a salary there is first of all programmer Koen who was just a regular employee. Nobody will say he shouldn’t have gotten a salary I assume.
Leaves Barry and Jaap. Starting (or trying to start is perhaps better here) a pinball company is typical not a part time job you do in the evening. So if you do this full time from start 2014? where do you live from? And remember, if ÄRA would have worked according to contract deliveries would have taken place in 2015/16. Their business strategy must have been based on that schedule where calculations based on profit from delivered tbl’s showed the possibility of a salary which they needed to be able to try this. And again, at that moment no signs this would be impossible.
I realize it doesn’t feel fair that we EA get , perhaps to likely, nothing while they had a salary. Also I am struggling with this but business wise it’s how it is.

I get that Koen was paid a salary and he should have been. But when his job was finished, so was his salary. I get that Barry and Jaap's business plan included them taking a salary during the start up phase until the company started cash flowing from sales.

When business realities change, the business plan must change with the reality. If they have been taking salary since 2014, there have been long stretches of time when this was not really a job anymore. Siphoning money off during this time as salary was dumb at best and at worst maybe illegal.

Just do the math. Even if you believe it is ok to pull salary on the pro forma profits of the unbuilt machines, at some point, they started using the portion of the money that was to be used to pay for the parts and the building of the machines. They kept digging the hole they are in, when they should have put down the shovel. Both through misuse of funds and poor decisions. And that is my beef.

They made a great pinball machine, but made really bad business decisions and stupidly violated the most important rule of starting a business: Don't run out of money.

13
#7422 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

RTR, In summary, Brijam posted "take it easy man, nothing is fu@ked here" ... Keep posting Brijam -I like your style Dude

You should change your name to EternalOptimist!

For the record, I would love for DP to pull a rabbit out of their hat, build everyone's machine (mine first, lol) and save the day.

Then I will apologize to you for being wrong as I eat my avatar. That would be awesome. I just can't look at what has happened and see it going that way.

#7423 5 years ago

Does anyone have any screenshots of the initial preorder page from Dutch Pinball? I need the information as to when the preorder money was due and their timeline of when we were supposed to receive our machines. I appreciate this in advance.

#7424 5 years ago

Screen Shot 2018-05-23 at   May 23, 2018   8.41.36 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2018-05-23 at May 23, 2018 8.41.36 AM (resized).png

#7425 5 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

Leaves Barry and Jaap. Starting (or trying to start is perhaps better here) a pinball company is typical not a part time job you do in the evening. So if you do this full time from start 2014? where do you live from?

It's called a proper business plan and a life plan. A proper business plan has to include the "what if scenarios" and they must be acted upon. The life plan includes the "where do you live from" and should not be on the coattails of prepayment money.

How did living on all the prepayment money work for Heighway, Skit B, and Zidware? So how is it reasonable for Dutch? Sorry, not buying it, it's not an attenable business formula in the pinball manufacturing world.

#7426 5 years ago

Thank you kapper greatly appreciated!

#7427 5 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

It's called a proper business plan and a life plan. A proper business plan has to include the "what if scenarios" and they must be acted upon. The life plan includes the "where do you live from" and should not be on the coattails of prepayment money.
How did living on all the prepayment money work for Heighway, Skit B, and Zidware? So how is it reasonable for Dutch? Sorry, not buying it, it's not an attenable business formula in the pinball manufacturing world.

I wasn't around at the time for SkitB or Zidware.

However, Andrew Heighway repeatedly claimed that pre-order money was not used to fund development or ongoing costs - when the opposite was true.

AFAIK Dutch did not claim that. Wasn't it basically a glorified Kickstarter? If they did indeed claim ongoing costs and development funding came from elsewhere, then that's obviously very different ...

But yeah, they clearly had no idea what to do when the relationship with ARA went South ...

-19
#7428 5 years ago

Hey RTR, For me it's only a numbers game - the numbers are still leaning heavily in our favor that DP will come out on top and deliver all the games to the EA's. ARA's numbers are extremely bad as the CM for TBL so that's good for DP in a big way.

10
#7429 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

Hey RTR, For me it's only a numbers game - the numbers are still leaning heavily in our favor that DP will come out on top and deliver all the games to the EA's. ARA's numbers are extremely bad as the CM for TBL so that's good for DP in a big way.

Please share your numbers, I'm all about numbers and what I can see.

#7430 5 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

You should change your name to EternalOptimist!
For the record, I would love for DP to pull a rabbit out of their hat, build everyone's machine (mine first, lol) and save the day.
Then I will apologize to you for being wrong as I eat my avatar. That would be awesome. I just can't look at what has happened and see it going that way.

I was thinking Eternal Downvoter!!! I wonder if he is drawing a salary from DP as the Head of Cheerleading Operations!!

-12
#7431 5 years ago

To be a competent CM you need to be at 95%. Margin of error is only plus or minus 5% on cost, delivery, and schedule. The CM develops the cost, delivery and schedule which is agreed to by the customer.
ARA had 2 working models to create the DP estimate, they should have been very aware of what they were getting into when they signed on to do TBL. No major changes happened, we did lose the lighted apron and bowling ball start button - that would have made the game easier to produce for ARA not more difficult.

TBL was a DP contract for 300 games, 210 day schedule, cost we'll guess at $6000.

ARA delivered 50 games to DP, in 420 days, cost is again unknown but 2 increases we'll guess - $7800.

Run ARA's percentages and see for yourself how ARA rates as the CM for TBL.

#7432 5 years ago

The proto was also built and developed by ÄRA. After those were built a pre-estimation was increased to a fixed number by ÄRA. They should have known exactly what they were building.

However, apparently not

So It was not that DP brought them a proto which they had to duplicate. They knew what they were supposed to built. Apparently they used a broken calculator

#7433 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

To be a competent CM you need to be at 95%. Margin of error is only plus or minus 5% on cost, delivery, and schedule. The CM develops the cost, delivery and schedule which is agreed to by the customer.
ARA had 2 working models to create the DP estimate, they should have been very aware of what they were getting into when they signed on to do TBL. No major changes happened, we did lose the lighted apron and bowling ball start button - that would have made the game easier to produce for ARA not more difficult.
TBL was a DP contract for 300 games, 210 day schedule, cost we'll guess at $6000.
ARA delivered 50 games to DP, in 420 days, cost is again unknown but 2 increases we'll guess - $7800.
Run ARA's percentages and see for yourself how ARA rates as the CM for TBL.

Quoted from Rensh:

The proto was also built and developed by ÄRA. After those were built a pre-estimation was increased to a fixed number by ÄRA. They should have known exactly what they were building.
However, apparently not
So It was not that DP brought them a proto which they had to duplicate. They knew what they were supposed to built. Apparently they used a broken calculator

Guys - Your hearts are in the right place, but those are not numbers. Those are crossed fingers and hopes that ARA are the ones that screwed this up. That the court will see it that way. That the court will award DP so much money that it will bail DP out of their sequentially worse and worse business and financial decisions. And that DP will have enough money through this newly found largesse to make everything good for the Extra Aggrieved, oops I mean Early Achievers.

Try working on the most important number imaginable - the number of dollars that DP has left in the bank after their terrible business decisions. That number does not inspire hope.

#7434 5 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

So It was not that DP brought them a proto which they had to duplicate. They knew what they were supposed to built. Apparently they used a broken calculator

So the redesign of the boards and that huge stall before production was what exactly?

#7435 5 years ago

Weren’t there major board issues surfaced after the first batch of games were shipped? ARA has to re-engineer the boards, and obviously had to pass on the costs of doing this. AFAIK it was after this that things went tits up because DO refused to pay the new price?

Edi: Flynn got got in first

#7436 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

So the redesign of the boards and that huge stall before production was what exactly?

They may or may not have fucked up with the latter, but not the same, no. Total change of suppliers for pretty much all major parts except pf and P3ROC.

#7437 5 years ago

I've crowdfunded much cheaper items and had much more communication from the inventors of those items and on a regular basis than what I'm reading about DP and their communication. DP basically crowdfunded TBL although when one sees a product on kickstarter they at least take pause before handing over the $ because there are no guarantees. It says so on the website. When I was considering TBL, it was pitched to me as 'pay the down payment(s) and you will receive the game'. If I would have seen TBL on kickstarter, it would have hit home with me that the project may not be completed. But since it was pitched at expo and on pinside, etc...in our pin community...it seemed less sketch. What was pushing me towards the pre-order was that while WOZ took years to happen, it still happened. I thought that TBL would be no different. What ultimately kept me from supporting it was that DP was located outside of the US with no subsidiarity in the US. I hope the remaining games are at least offered to the EA's first.

#7438 5 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

They may or may not have fucked up with the latter, but not the same, no. Total change of suppliers for pretty much all major parts except pf and P3ROC.

I'm talking about at the very start when they went in with ARA - the main boards were redesigned from the prototype game that DP revealed at Expo. The claim by the other poster was ARA was handed a 'ready to go' design so why did it take so long? When my memory says... they announced the ARA partnership, but they went back and redesigned the electronics and that was a large part of the delay between partnering with ARA and when production supposedly started. DP even said why they partnered with ARA was their R&D, not just their assembly abilities. And ARA even talked about their mechanical and engineering design work in the first factory tour -

DP announced their partnership with ARA in March of 2014. It wasn't until Feb 2016 that DP invited EAs to ARA where we saw production staging happening with the new game design.

And this photo from Oct 2014 - looks nothing like the final design they ended up with

pf (resized).jpgpf (resized).jpg

-3
#7439 5 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

Guys - Your hearts are in the right place, but those are not numbers. Those are crossed fingers and hopes that ARA are the ones that screwed this up. That the court will see it that way. That the court will award DP so much money that it will bail DP out of their sequentially worse and worse business and financial decisions. And that DP will have enough money through this newly found largesse to make everything good for the Extra Aggrieved, oops I mean Early Achievers.
Try working on the most important number imaginable - the number of dollars that DP has left in the bank after their terrible business decisions. That number does not inspire hope.

(edited)

#7440 5 years ago

These guys have been loose with the facts and using generalities for the last couple of years. If you couldn’t see the incompetence then, you certainly can now. And if you can’t now, I’ve got some stuff to sell in my basement, grade a stuff, very collectible, can’t say what it is though. Send money first and we can talk.

#7441 5 years ago

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I won't be bashing the country, they are the 6th happiest place to live. And we don't need a derail into politics!

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/16/these-are-the-top-10-happiest-countries-in-the-world.html

-3
#7442 5 years ago

April 2015
ARA and DP signed a contract that says that DP will buy 300 TBLs from ARA, delivered between April and October 2015.
May 2015
ARA informs DP that the agreed price is too low because the cost price is higher than estimated. DP agrees with the new price.
April 2016
First shipment of TBL.

ARA metrics. 300 delivered games, April-October 2015 - 210 days.
First delivery of only 50 games - 420 days later

ARA's numbers are: 16% delivery , 200% late on schedule, 25-30% over on price. Horrible numbers, they failed in every category. If there were major board issues, ARA made the board set so ARA fails again in the 4th category- quality.
In the US you can sue the CM for loss of reputation, business, damages, ect if they fail to meet the contract.
If the law in the NL is the same, the numbers suggest ARA is not in a good position.

If ARA has to pay DP for the 250 TBL's they couldn't produce on time on budget DP will walk away with everything they need to finish the original project, and a lot more.

-1
#7443 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

April 2015
ARA and DP signed a contract that says that DP will buy 300 TBLs from ARA, delivered between April and October 2015.
May 2015
ARA informs DP that the agreed price is too low because the cost price is higher than estimated. DP agrees with the new price.
April 2016
First shipment of TBL.
ARA metrics. 300 delivered games, April-October 2015 - 210 days.
First delivery of only 50 games - 420 days later
ARA's numbers are: 16% delivery , 200% late on schedule, 25-30% over on price. Horrible numbers, they failed in every category. If there were major board issues, ARA made the board set so ARA fails again in the 4th category- quality.
In the US you can sue the CM for loss of reputation, business, damages, ect if they fail to meet the contract.
If the law in the NL is the same, the numbers suggest ARA is not in a good position.
If ARA has to pay DP for the 250 TBL's they couldn't produce on time on budget DP will walk away with everything they need to finish the original project, and a lot more.

Excellent write up

#7444 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

April 2015
ARA and DP signed a contract that says that DP will buy 300 TBLs from ARA, delivered between April and October 2015.
May 2015
ARA informs DP that the agreed price is too low because the cost price is higher than estimated. DP agrees with the new price.
April 2016
First shipment of TBL.
ARA metrics. 300 delivered games, April-October 2015 - 210 days.
First delivery of only 50 games - 420 days later
ARA's numbers are: 16% delivery , 200% late on schedule, 25-30% over on price. Horrible numbers, they failed in every category. If there were major board issues, ARA made the board set so ARA fails again in the 4th category- quality.
In the US you can sue the CM for loss of reputation, business, damages, ect if they fail to meet the contract.
If the law in the NL is the same, the numbers suggest ARA is not in a good position.
If ARA has to pay DP for the 250 TBL's they couldn't produce on time on budget DP will walk away with everything they need to finish the original project, and a lot more.

All fiction because DP hasn't paid them for any games, judge won't award breach of contract on a manufacturer owed money, would you work unpaid?

#7445 5 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

All fiction because DP hasn't paid them for any games, judge won't award breach of contract on a manufacturer owed money, would you work unpaid?

Pls reveal source of info that DP hasn’t paid any of the games eg nothing on the approx 50 delivered.

Or is it just an assumption like 90% of the thread (including me)?

#7446 5 years ago

Someone who has had communication with ARA directly.

15
#7447 5 years ago

The more I read this thread, the more convinced I am that people may be confusing contract manufacturing with other contract services. Given that ARA is in that business and DP isn't, the contract is likely favorable to ARA. Meaning, full pass-through of BOM costs plus a 'comfortable' standard burden rate to cover labor, COLA and exchange rate protection along with rock solid change control. Change something and everything gets reset. Speculation? No doubt; however, it seems likely that ARA would have had the upper hand in the initial contract negotiation and included the appropriate t's and c's to pass as much risk as possible to DP.

15
#7448 5 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

Change something and everything gets reset.

This is what the few remaining DP fanboys are missing. This is what Jaap was referring to when claiming ARA bumped the price multiple times. ARA aren’t raising prices without knowing full well they’re entitled to it. DP made changes, production got repriced accordingly. End of story. As you said, this is ARA’s expertise. The contract is written precisely to cover these scenarios.

#7449 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

April 2015
ARA and DP signed a contract that says that DP will buy 300 TBLs from ARA, delivered between April and October 2015.
May 2015
ARA informs DP that the agreed price is too low because the cost price is higher than estimated. DP agrees with the new price.
April 2016
First shipment of TBL.
ARA metrics. 300 delivered games, April-October 2015 - 210 days.
First delivery of only 50 games - 420 days later
ARA's numbers are: 16% delivery , 200% late on schedule, 25-30% over on price. Horrible numbers, they failed in every category. If there were major board issues, ARA made the board set so ARA fails again in the 4th category- quality.
In the US you can sue the CM for loss of reputation, business, damages, ect if they fail to meet the contract.
If the law in the NL is the same, the numbers suggest ARA is not in a good position.
If ARA has to pay DP for the 250 TBL's they couldn't produce on time on budget DP will walk away with everything they need to finish the original project, and a lot more.

Even if it were that simple, 2 things stand out.

Firstly, legal action could drag on for up to 2 years. I think there's no prospect of Jaap & Barry being able to draw minimum salaries during that period whilst remaining solvent. I'm not sure if it's permitted to defer the payments. Then there are all the legal costs.

Secondly, there's probably good reason why they sounded so down in the dumps, finally, in the last update. I suspect they know they're likely out of time and money.

IMO their only chance is that ARA have a very weak case and a judge moves to dismiss it at a fairly preliminary stage. I think that's unlikely, and it also assumes Xytech will be prepared to wait it out.

#7450 5 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

This is what the few remaining DP fanboys are missing. This is what Jaap was referring to when claiming ARA bumped the price multiple times. ARA aren’t raising prices without knowing full well they’re entitled to it. DP made changes, production got repriced accordingly. End of story. As you said, this is ARA’s expertise. The contract is written precisely to cover these scenarios.

This has been discussed already long time ago. I challenge you to point out which changes have been made on DP request to ÄRA. My guess is you know none .....

But I get it. There are people like me seen as DP fanboys and there are people on the opposite. I don’t think we will ever work this out in a forum as after all we are all best guessing. I am however missing a lot of proof in accusations like i have difficulty in proving my right. However, I live by the principle: not quilty till proven otherwise.

And I have one advantage over most of you, many hours with Barry which enabled me to get a feeling on the opposite person. If he has been lying to me all these years he should get an Emmy award for best actor.

This is a major reason I wished the documents would be public. This would settle it, left or right. I guess we will know one day in the (distant) future.

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