(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)

By Nilroc

9 years ago


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#7351 5 years ago

I hate to even whisper optimism at this point but the legal posturing will get everyone back to negotiations and a deal could be struck outside the courtroom. I would not let expectations get carried away however.

#7352 5 years ago

You can't deny that DP gives us lots to talk about even though most of it is pure speculation.

14
#7353 5 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

They did want 51% share in DP , so wouldn't that indicate they wanted to be in the pinball business

ARA wanted to be in the business of getting paid what they were owed. Taking Jaap and Barry out of the decision making process and gaining majority control would have facilitated that.

Jaap and Barry would be wise to try and work things out with ARA even now. DP is finished in this business forever. Reputation gone. Pinball Poison. Flippers finished. Knockers up. Pops pooped. SDTM. Their game is over. DP finally DP'd themselves.

In other words, there is not a company left for DP to save. Can you imagine anyone doing business with them ever? Sure, EternalLife and a few others might still believe, but there are not enough people out there like that to keep DP going. No one would ever invest in the DP shit show with Jaap and Barry controlling the company.

They should maintain some sense of dignity and honor, settle with ARA, and let some grown ups take over the DP project.

#7354 5 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I hate to even whisper optimism at this point but the legal posturing will get everyone back to negotiations and a deal could be struck outside the courtroom. I wouldn't expect anything soon though.

Is it outside the world of possibilities that the 49/51 deal could still be done?

Whatever sense that made to ARA at the time, that would have to still be the case?

#7355 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Is it outside the world of possibilities that the 49/51 deal could still be done?
Whatever sense that made to ARA at the time, that would have to still be the case?

Aside from everything else ... Xytech weren't working for free.

#7356 5 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

They did want 51% share in DP , so wouldn't that indicate they wanted to be in the pinball business

Not necessarily. I’ve seen many people or companies in broken down deals take an equity portion to settle debt and or to control a company they were trying to get paid from. They become reluctant owners and usually look to sell out quickly if the company survives long enough to pay them. The only way we’d know for sure either way is if they tell us...

My guess is that it was all about ARA getting paid and nothing more but just a guess.

#7357 5 years ago

I really don’t think ÄRA has any interest in starting production up again let alone making us EA whole again.

Also remember DP didn’t want to agree to 51/49 as that would give ÄRA full control to do whatever they like. God knows what they would have done. Remember, if ÄRA only wanted to make sure the money went to them why did they refuse DP counteroffer to give them full control over the money flow eg payments from paypal, nitro and CT would direct flow into ARa bank account?? Tell me, if they were sincere in just wanting 51/49 as purpose of money control (they even said they would return control to Jaap and Barry after 300 were produced), why did they refuse DP counteroffer??

No, ÄRA had a second agenda for sure.

This makes theory 523? I was hoping courtdocuments would be publically available but apparently not. Would be interesting reading material to see ÄRA claim and DP counterclaim. A lot would be revealed I guess. The courtsession will be however, whenever it is.

#7358 5 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

It's my assumption based on experience. Neither ARA nor Dutch Pinball can transfer those Lebowski machines as they are in dispute. Please read the post I was responding to. I may have worded my comment poorly and unintentionally mislead you.
If European law allows ARA to sell those games during litigation, independent of DP, I'll gladly be corrected and completely surprised.

What machines?

InfiniteUnlawfulKinglet-max-1mb (resized).pngInfiniteUnlawfulKinglet-max-1mb (resized).png

12
#7359 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

Maybe ARA is suing DP just to close the books and write it off as a loss?

#7360 5 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I was hoping courtdocuments would be publically available but apparently not. Would be interesting reading material to see ÄRA claim and DP counterclaim. A lot would be revealed I guess. The courtsession will be however, whenever it is.

Surely they will be, at some point?

#7361 5 years ago

Going to state the obvious, because some can't accept the truth ... here it is.

Nobody will manufacture more TBL's, ever. The license will not be renewed by licensor and there will be limited to no customer support available for any TBL game. Time to put a fork in this and to puncture hopes of someone emerging from ashes to begin making future TBL's. Early Achievers will be getting nothing.

When the Dutch lawsuit is over, ARA or DP will be owed a lot of money. It will be difficult for the party who owes to pay. There may be 40 machines already made and there may not be. Number might be closer to 10 or 20 games too. If the games exist, they will be awarded to one party and that party will wish to sell them immediately thereafter, if legal to do so. Proceeds from those games will go to company selling them.

Any additional lawsuits against DP, such as ones originating from US, if successful will not have any machines left from which to go after. At that point, lawsuits are targeting a money settlement against DP. If DP is successful in the Dutch lawsuits & if they collect damages against ARA (10% combined overall chance), they will be able to pay off a portion of the US lawsuits.

#7362 5 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Going to restate the obvious, because some can't accept the truth ... here it is.
Nobody will manufacture any more TBL's, ever. There will be limited to no customer support for any TBL. Time to put a fork in and to puncture any hopes of someone emerging from ashes to begin making future TBL's now.
When the Dutch lawsuit is over, ARA or DP will be owed a lot of money. It will be difficult for the party who owes to pay. There may be 40 machines already made and there may not be. If they exist, they will be awarded to one party and that party will wish to sell them immediately thereafter, if legal. Proceeds from those games will go to company selling them.
Any additional lawsuits against DP, such as ones originating from US, if successful will not have any machines left from which to go after. At that point, lawsuits are targeting a money settlement against DP. If DP is successful and if they collect damages against ARA (maybe 10% chance overall), they will be able to pay off a portion of the lawsuit.

Sadly I think this is the best guess / summary of the situation here. Current buyers are unsecured creditors... unfortunately.

I wonder if any locals can get the court documents? Some jurisdictions in the US make everything available to the public but you must go in person (they don’t put it online for convenience). Others put it all online. Perhaps the case here is available at the court itself? Anyone who speaks the language could call the clerk.

#7363 5 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

They did want 51% share in DP , so wouldn't that indicate they wanted to be in the pinball business

Big difference between taking over an entity to see a 'in progress' project through to completion to get to your initial goals... vs restarting a several years dead project with no future beyond one release... to get into an industry known for it's high costs and poor margins.

ARA was in in deep.. the take-over pitch is a way to ensure their cut of the money and get them out of the hole. To suggest ARA have ambitions to take over DP assets and continue on as their own pinball company is fan-fiction IMO.

Contract Manufacturers do not exist because they couldn't come up with their own products... they exist because they know it's better to make the money on building other's people's ideas.

-1
#7364 5 years ago
Quoted from brainmegaphone:

My guess is that it was all about ARA getting paid and nothing more but just a guess.

It's the one outcome that makes sense as a business. GET PAID

DP knew it would be the death of DP and why they didn't do it.

#7365 5 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Going to restate the obvious, because some can't accept the truth ... here it is.
Nobody will manufacture any more TBL's, ever. There will be limited to no customer support for any TBL. Time to put a fork in and to puncture any hopes of someone emerging from ashes to begin making future TBL's now.

While I'm not optimistic that I'll ever see my TBL, I don't necessarily agree that TBL's will never be manufactured (by anyone) again. Too much potential market appeal and too many other games being remade for that to be a certainty.

10
#7366 5 years ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

While I'm not optimistic that I'll ever see my TBL, I don't necessarily agree that TBL's will never be manufactured (by anyone) again. Too much potential market appeal and too many other games being remade for that to be a certainty.

It's over Man. Sucks, but it is done.

This isn't ever coming back.....

2 guys just blew a lot of "other" peoples money on a "dream"......

#7367 5 years ago

It's one thing to say it's over for "Early Achievers". It's another to say that TBLs will never be manufactured by anyone ever.

Either way, I have nothing further to lose at this point and until I see something more than just speculation, I'm not ready to say "Fuck it Dude, let's go bowling."

-3
#7368 5 years ago

HD - This is for you. Everyone else, please get ready to down vote I hope I get at least 16 this time.

The 20 or 40 games at ARA wouldn't count as they were never "delivered" but lets work the numbers and see how ARA comes out.

30% delivery on a contract that was over due by over seven months leaves -70% due on the contract . Terrible numbers, one could say "failing" numbers or another legal term is "fundamental breach".
The amount owed was always the question. DP wanted the original price and ARA wanted the new price even though they did not meet the contract terms or
the second agreed terms. I don't blame DP, I wouldn't pay extra for services not received. If someone ever gives you bill for services you did not receive it's in your right not to pay it until they provide you a correct bill.
DP did say to start over with a new CM and sue at the same time would not be possible. They wanted to get our games out then sue ARA for what happened. They had years to file - getting our games out was the priority suing would take place after.

ARA sees this as a win-win. Bankrupt DP and win, lose in court and write it all off.

Lets see how the courts view this, if it makes it to court.

I did offer DP more money when the ARA thing first hit, they declined. I also offered more cash last week, they declined again. I'm not affiliated with DP, I'm only an EA - our game is number 77.
I do believe in the project and the dream to play against people from all over the world and I still have no reason to believe that will not happen. It is a great game, the best original title in the last 20 years IMHO. -EL

#7369 5 years ago

Well we could always end up with a virtual TBL should all things go to pot. You think DP could afford to send us one of those to make up for the loss?

10
#7370 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

HD - This is for you. Everyone else, please get ready to down vote I hope I get at least 16 this time.
The 20 or 40 games at ARA wouldn't count as they were never "delivered" but lets work the numbers and see how ARA comes out.
30% delivery on a contract that was over due by over seven months leaves -70% due on the contract . Terrible numbers, one could say "failing" numbers or another legal term is "fundamental breach".
The amount owed was always the question. DP wanted the original price and ARA wanted the new price even though they did not meet the contract terms or
the second agreed terms. I don't blame DP, I wouldn't pay extra for services not received. If someone ever gives you bill for services you did not receive it's in your right not to pay it until they provide you a correct bill.

The problem is.. your entire line of thinking assumes ARA is in the wrong with their amount they say DP owed. That in itself is in dispute. DP could just be WRONG in what they assume they are responsible for.

The delays you like to keep pointing to may have been necessary to account for the redesign of the game.. not simply ARA failing to execute. This again, is another area DP likes to gloss over.. and may be part of the dispute in terms of who is responsible for those costs.

It's real easy to just say "we agreed to a price.. that's all we will pay" - but that may not be reality for the agreement they entered. And the complete lack of detail from DP doesn't even build the confidence they know the difference either way.

There is a reason DP didn't push to get those games released... they knew they were in the weaker spot.

-11
#7371 5 years ago

Flynn,
It was more about delivery (or lack of) than money. DP offered more $ if the second schedule was met, and ARA couldn't do it.

DP delivered 2 working models to ARA. That's huge, having an engineering model in front of them an accurate quote and timeline should have been easy. Most people go to CM's with ideas or drawings not working models.
As the CM it was ARA's responsibility to produce a quote and delivery schedule for the contract. If there was a 4th playfield added later I would see your point - that didn't happen.

Numbers don't lie. If ARA was a competent CM the project would have wrapped up all 300 games in 7 months on budget and we wouldn't be here typing. To drag it out 14 months and only have 50 games delivered says a lot about who they are. And the main ARA board was not the best plan. The new board set is far superior so I kind of hope DP asks in the counter to destroy the undelivered 20-40 of the "ARA" models at ARA's expense. It would be better to start over with the new CM.

26
#7372 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

Flynn,
It was more about delivery (or lack of) than money. DP offered more $ if the second schedule was met, and ARA couldn't do it.
DP delivered 2 working models to ARA. That's huge, having an engineering model in front of them an accurate quote and timeline should have been easy. Most people go to CM's with ideas or drawings not working models.
As the CM it was ARA's responsibility to produce a quote and delivery schedule for the contract. If there was a 4th playfield added later I would see your point - that didn't happen.
Numbers don't lie. If ARA was a competent CM the project would have wrapped up all 300 games in 7 months on budget and we wouldn't be here typing. To drag it out 14 months and only have 50 games delivered says a lot about who they are. And the main ARA board was not the best plan. The new board set is far superior so I kind of hope DP asks in the counter to destroy the undelivered 20-40 of the "ARA" models at ARA's expense. It would be better to start over with the new CM.

My order is/was with Dutch Pinball. I don't give a shit about ARA in the slightest. Just like I don't care about any other parts supplier/vendor/CM etc.

I paid Dutch Pinball.

Dutch Pinball has refused to return my money after 4 years.

Stop misdirecting the facts and apologizing for incompetent management. It all begins and ends with Barry and Jaap.

#7373 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

HD - This is for you. Everyone else, please get ready to down vote I hope I get at least 16 this time.
The 20 or 40 games at ARA wouldn't count as they were never "delivered" but lets work the numbers and see how ARA comes out.
30% delivery on a contract that was over due by over seven months leaves -70% due on the contract . Terrible numbers, one could say "failing" numbers or another legal term is "fundamental breach".
The amount owed was always the question. DP wanted the original price and ARA wanted the new price even though they did not meet the contract terms or
the second agreed terms. I don't blame DP, I wouldn't pay extra for services not received. If someone ever gives you bill for services you did not receive it's in your right not to pay it until they provide you a correct bill.
DP did say to start over with a new CM and sue at the same time would not be possible. They wanted to get our games out then sue ARA for what happened. They had years to file - getting our games out was the priority suing would take place after.
ARA sees this as a win-win. Bankrupt DP and win, lose in court and write it all off.
Lets see how the courts view this, if it makes it to court.
I did offer DP more money when the ARA thing first hit, they declined. I also offered more cash last week, they declined again. I'm not affiliated with DP, I'm only an EA - our game is number 77.
I do believe in the project and the dream to play against people from all over the world and I still have no reason to believe that will not happen. It is a great game, the best original title in the last 20 years IMHO. -EL

I hope you are right.
But then again, that's all that's left: hope.
Philgate and DP's history of underreporting the facts do not make me enthusiastic at all.

-1
#7374 5 years ago

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#7375 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

Flynn,
It was more about delivery (or lack of) than money. DP offered more $ if the second schedule was met, and ARA couldn't do it.
DP delivered 2 working models to ARA. That's huge, having an engineering model in front of them an accurate quote and timeline should have been easy. Most people go to CM's with ideas or drawings not working models.
As the CM it was ARA's responsibility to produce a quote and delivery schedule for the contract. If there was a 4th playfield added later I would see your point - that didn't happen.
Numbers don't lie. If ARA was a competent CM the project would have wrapped up all 300 games in 7 months on budget and we wouldn't be here typing. To drag it out 14 months and only have 50 games delivered says a lot about who they are. And the main ARA board was not the best plan. The new board set is far superior so I kind of hope DP asks in the counter to destroy the undelivered 20-40 of the "ARA" models at ARA's expense. It would be better to start over with the new CM.

Would this all be bunk if DP hasn't paid anything?

#7376 5 years ago

@eternallife
I have no personal beef with you, other than your constant barrage of downvotes. At the end of the day, we share a common love for pinball. I appreciate that you finally provided your input and point-of-view. After all, this is an online forum intended to encourage everyone to respectfully participate and engage with one another. Unfortunately, I don't understand and agree with your logic.

You also avoided some my questions, but I do have some more for you:

Quoted from EternalLife:

The 20 or 40 games at ARA wouldn't count as they were never "delivered" but lets work the numbers and see how ARA comes out. 30% delivery on a contract that was over due by over seven months leaves -70% due on the contract . Terrible numbers, one could say "failing" numbers or another legal term is "fundamental breach".

Quoted from EternalLife:

The amount owed was always the question. DP wanted the original price and ARA wanted the new price even though they did not meet the contract terms or the second agreed terms. I don't blame DP, I wouldn't pay extra for services not received. If someone ever gives you bill for services you did not receive it's in your right not to pay it until they provide you a correct bill.

Quoted from EternalLife:

As the CM it was ARA's responsibility to produce a quote and delivery schedule for the contract.

Quoted from EternalLife:

If ARA was a competent CM the project would have wrapped up all 300 games in 7 months on budget and we wouldn't be here typing. To drag it out 14 months and only have 50 games delivered says a lot about who they are.

No it doesn't. Suppliers miss target dates all the time. The worst is when you announce a product prematurely to the world, only for it to be delayed or postponed indefinitely. Here's a good example of a product that never made it market because of a CM's ability to make it happen:
http://ux-design-awards.com/en/product/crusher-vra/
I once developed a product that was delayed 2+ years due to the CM (it was even a CES Innovation Award winner). I begged our corporate marketing team to hold off on the CES announcement due to uncertainty on schedule, but they did it anyways. By the time that product finally shipped, the market had forgotten about it and moved on to cheaper solutions. Unfortunately, that's how it goes when you rely on a CM to joint-develop your technology. The CM said they had the means to make my patent work, but it turns out they couldn't do it in the timeline we agreed upon. I was limited on internal development resources, so that's the risk my company and I took with that agreement. The CM also took a hit with loss of time, resources, and revenue. Fortunately, the small print in the contract dictates what happens when target dates are missed, so needless to say, what we owed to the supplier became a line-item "adjustment."
We also didn't ditch that supplier and move onto another one. Most companies don't do such a thing unless the CM goes belly-up or they're a nightmare with quality control.

Quoted from EternalLife:

DP delivered 2 working models to ARA. That's huge, having an engineering model in front of them an accurate quote and timeline should have been easy. Most people go to CM's with ideas or drawings not working models.

So what? DP didn't have any other options unless they outsourced assembly to Stern, Spooky, or Jersey Jack (CGC wasn't a viable option at that time). I'm not aware of any global CM that specializes in pinball manufacturing. DP knew this going in.
Did DP manufacture the MMBs? I think not, so don't say it should have been "easy." This was ARA's first rodeo and DP knew this going in. You're implying that DP wasn't late on their own accord. Do you forget that they were dealing with a bunch of nonsense on their end (music rights, Phil, asset approval from Universal, etc.)? You can't snap your fingers and expect a pinball assembly line to magically appear and run "on-demand."

Quoted from EternalLife:

It was more about delivery (or lack of) than money.

Shouldn't it have been "more about" the customer?
If it wasn't about money, why no refunds? Also, do you have a copy of DP's refund policy?

DP offered more $ if the second schedule was met, and ARA couldn't do it.

What was the second schedule? Are you referring to BoP25 and/or the remaining 250 TBLs? How did the "second schedule" become our issue? They certainly didn't reach out to me for my input on the situation.
Also, ARA seemed to be getting into the groove by the time the first 50 units were delivered. We would've had our games in 2017 had DP not pulled what they did.

Quoted from EternalLife:

DP did say to start over with a new CM and sue at the same time would not be possible. They wanted to get our games out then sue ARA for what happened.

And how did that work out for them?

Quoted from EternalLife:

They had years to file - getting our games out was the priority suing would take place after.

Again, how did that work out for them?
Based on what you previously stated about the "2nd agreement," it sounds like DP was more concerned with BoP25 than TBL.

Quoted from EternalLife:

ARA sees this as a win-win. Bankrupt DP and win, lose in court and write it all off.

Is ARA required to include a copy of the court judgment when they file their taxes or business financials?

Quoted from EternalLife:

I did offer DP more money when the ARA thing first hit, they declined. I also offered more cash last week, they declined again. I'm not affiliated with DP, I'm only an EA - our game is number 77.

You need to keep in mind that your game has technically been built. What about people in the high 100's (and beyond) who have paid in full? You have a much better chance of seeing your game vs. one of the EA's in the back of the line. Let's say you DO get your game. Do you give a rat's ass about anyone behind you once you get YOUR game? Of course not.

It also doesn't matter if ARA was going to increase the FOB to $8499 for every game. DP is the one who is obligated to deliver that game at the amount they advertised and tendered.

Quoted from EternalLife:

It is a great game, the best original title in the last 20 years IMHO.

Now we're on common ground! I definitely agree with you here.

10
#7377 5 years ago

Let's be honest. We screwed the pooch when we ignored the early signs with Philgate. Now we sit here pondering what's gonna happen next. I'm the most positive thinking guy but I have a feeling the show is over and the curtains close and there will be no encore. All because of two jackasses that have absolutely zero business sense! It's very sad but IMHO I believe it"s all over. The Dutch Dike has too many cracks in it and soon the waters will destroy the dike and sink DP.

21
#7378 5 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

Also remember DP didn’t want to agree to 51/49 as that would give ÄRA full control to do whatever they like. God knows what they would have done.

Can you explain how ARA would have been worse than DP in this scenario? ARA would have at least gotten more games to owners. They certainly would not have delivered fewer games, lol. They would have run the thing like a damn business. Not a 4+ year free load for Jaap and Barry.

ARA would have at least fired Jaap and Barry as employees and stopped them from sucking at the big tit of Early Achiever money without delivering anything. The whole "taking a salary" deal was (and is if they are still taking a salary) clearly a scam. So was all their travel and whatever else they did with our money. (Hey DP - please prove me wrong with some financials, I will eat my crow)

There were points in this process that Jaap and Barry could have made the right, albeit painful, choices the company, for the good of their financial backers (Early Achievers), but they chose to do the easier and best things for Jaap and Barry and f$ck everyone else. Now they have shit for a company, nothing to show for it, have screwed all the people that have tried to help them, and have probably doomed this project.

No one thought BOP 25 was a good idea. The vast majority of backers knew - and expressed - that walking away from the ARA deal was a mistake. Yet DP tried to gaslight people that DP had support (from who?!?!?!) for their dumbass ARA decision.

Bottom line - Jaap and Barry made and continue to make selfish, greedy, dishonest, and just downright poor business decisions. They deserve ZERO support and should be ostracized from the pinball community.

#7379 5 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

Flynn,
It was more about delivery (or lack of) than money. DP offered more $ if the second schedule was met, and ARA couldn't do it.

This is again relying 100% on dp’s Version of the story. A story that is highly suspect. You are just using circular logic to support yourself. Try justifying how Ara would have done NONE of what they promised with the next game etc if They actually were in good standing with DP. This is what they do... build stuff...and they did nothing?? How do you explain that?

Quoted from EternalLife:

DP delivered 2 working models to ARA. That's huge, having an engineering model in front of them an accurate quote and timeline should have been easy. Most people go to CM's with ideas or drawings not working models.

Unless that model is impractical or unsuitable for production. Which is what happened here. They had to reengineer the thing because the prototypes weren’t built with manufacturing expertise and design required.

Quoted from EternalLife:

Numbers don't lie. If ARA was a competent CM the project would have wrapped up all 300 games in 7 months on budget and we wouldn't be here typing. To drag it out 14 months and only have 50 games delivered says a lot about who they are.

Do you know what dictates how much you scale your production rate? How much you spend. You fault ara for the speed, but you have no idea what dp had actually paid for in the program. Again you are taking one version of the story on blind faith and refuse to even litmus test what they said.

Even dp’s own estimates were incredibly low in terms of throughput- and that’s reflective of how much they were Spending on the program. Remember that initial tour where they showed the four!! stations were games were to be built?? That was pathetic.

Don’t use estimates like cgc or stern in production when they aren’t investing the same amount into that production capacity. It’s not some fixed value because ara is “this big”. It’s based on how much you are investing to the production needs. Inventory, space, labor.

#7380 5 years ago

I see lots of mistakes from DP. Overspending on promotions, overpromising, relying on pre-order money. I think it's horrible from a business perspective for DP not to do at least a monthly update, even if it is only a single sentence, "nothing happened." In the absence of information, people speculate and that kind of speculation is rarely positive.

These are big mistakes. I see some poor business decisions and a lack of communication. I don't see a scam or a fraud, unlike some other instances in pinball history.

I think it is premature to say what DP's ultimate fate will be. Let's all remember that Stern was going to go out of business because of the playfield scandal not too long ago... at least according to comments here.

I thought BOP 2.0 was superb. Most people agree that TBL is a fantastic pin. I played it and I thought the play and build quality was every bit as good as a Stern, JJP or American.

DP has thread the needle twice with CMs and gotten quality pins produced from both.

There is skill and talent there.

About the license - there must be some ability to renegotiate the contract/extend the timing with Universal, else why work with the new CM? It's entirely reasonable that there is a clause in the license agreement for additional TBLs at any time in the future as long as they pay the license holder, or at least the right to renegotiate for additional TBLs. And in my experience with license holders, they like money.

It is highly likely there is a non-disclosure agreement with ARA in which case DP may not be able to disclose terms or details. That's not the same as withholding information for nefarious purposes as some people are alleging here.

Also, when a company finds out they are being sued, informing their customer is not on the list of first things to do. You speak with your own counsel, and you try to settle out of court. That could take months.

There are also commonly held sound business reasons not to disclose all the terms of the contract, namely pricing details. It's simply not done. As a customer, expecting DP to share their contract is not reasonable.

It's odd that people are starting to think they shouldn't have taken salaries. How were they supposed to eat?

It's just as odd that people think DP shouldn't have gone to pinball events to promote their game. They don't sell themselves.

I don't see what is odd about the pinball makers presenting themselves as competent and confident (e.g. arrogant) at a show. They have a hell of a pin. That at least is something to be proud of.

It makes perfect sense to me that a CM could drastically underestimate the cost of producing a pinball machine and want to try to renegotiate. Estimating is very, very hard. Professionals get it wrong all the time.

It also makes sense that, after having taken salaries and done marketing based on units sold and a known profit margin based on a contract with the CM that DP would be very, very reluctant to agree to a raised cost per unit from the CM, /and/ not have enough capital to risk on a lawsuit... to the point they would have no choice but to let ARA walk away.

Because I sure as hell wouldn't sign a contract that allowed a contractor to raise the price per unit after prices were set and I began selling units at a fixed price. Isn't that what the C in CM is all about? What seems more likely: ARA broke a contract they knew they would lose lots of money on, or DP signed a contract where the CM could arbitrarily raise prices without DP agreeing?

That ARA would risk the consequences of breaking the contract makes sense if they drastically underestimated the cost. If you were the CM would you prefer to definitely lose 300,000 Euro producing 300 pins for DP, or /maybe/ lose an unknown amount in a lawsuit, particularly if you don't believe the litigant can afford good counsel or sustain a long legal battle? There may well be technicalities in the contract that the CM could point to and say DP was in breach. It is likely a highly technical and confusing grey area.

It also makes sense that the CM would prefer to sue now before DP was able to sell enough pins to be able to sue /them/ or afford high quality attorneys. From my perspective, the timing of the lawsuit is a calculated move by the CM. If they had a strong case, it might have been a better strategy for them to have waited for DP to sell a few hundred games and then sue them when they had money. Suing now suggests to me the CM has a weaker case and is looking to leverage DP's urgent need to ship and/or they want to damage their relationship with the second CM.

There are many stories of evil baseless lawsuits in business. I was personally been involved in a threatened lawsuit by an evil actor who knew they didn't have a case and tried to stiff my company on a consulting contract. I wasn't having it and lawyered up big time. We ended up settling out of court and I got paid. Yes, the attorney bill cost me more than the settlement, but I did it on principle. I'd much rather see justice done even if it costs me. I'm not sure DP has the means for this, and the CM knows it. That's a very dangerous situation to be in.

However, even if DP doesn't have a case, it is still quite possible the CM will settle out of court for guaranteed payments from DP, because those could be worth much more than selling the pins they may have the right to sell. These negotiations could take months.

Let's not forget that to a judge it is going to look like both the CM and DP could have valid arguments and claims, and that is exactly what court is for. It may come down to who has the better record keeping, or who has the better attorney or interpretations from the judge.

I strongly agree with others that muddying the waters with additional lawsuits from customers will result in no money to customers, plenty of money to lawyers, no new games to anybody, and likely weaken DP's ability to fight off what /might/ be a hostile CM.

It is most certainly not over for DP. It's a major setback, and it could mean the end. But DP could still come out the winner in this with money, finished machines and a ready-to-go second CM.

Throughout this it's really a shame that DP hasn't done a better job communicating their challenges and day to day struggles. If they had, maybe the pinball community would have rallied to their side in a gofundme legal defense for them.

#7381 5 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

About the license - there must be some ability to renegotiate the contract/extend the timing with Universal, else why work with the new CM? It's entirely reasonable that there is a clause in the license agreement for additional TBLs at any time in the future as long as they pay the license holder, or at least the right to renegotiate for additional TBLs. And in my experience with license holders, they like money.
It is highly likely there is a non-disclosure agreement with ARA in which case DP may not be able to disclose terms or details. That's not the same as withholding information for nefarious purposes as some people are alleging here.

Universal has to approve and sign-off on the CM as well, which is part of the licensing agreement. DP couldn't proceed with Xytech without Universal's approval. This is how DP got an extension on TBL license during that transition.
There will be a point where Universal reaches its threshold on these "running changes."

Based on your theory, Stern would still be pumping out classics like TRON: Legacy (Pro) and Lord of the Rings

Quoted from Brijam:

It's just as odd that people think DP shouldn't have gone to pinball events to promote their game. They don't sell themselves.

And some titles just don't sell at all (ie, BoP25)

Quoted from Brijam:

I don't see what is odd about the pinball makers presenting themselves as competent and confident (e.g. arrogant) at a show. They have a hell of a pin. That at least is something to be proud of.

Some would argue that DP (Phil) may have come on a little too strong at Pinball Expo '14. I don't fault Barry or Jaap for Phil's delivery.

Quoted from Brijam:

It makes perfect sense to me that a CM could drastically underestimate the cost of producing a pinball machine and want to try to renegotiate.

You don't renegotiate immediately after start of production.

Quoted from Brijam:

I strongly agree with others that muddying the waters with additional lawsuits from customers will result in no money to customers, plenty of money to lawyers, no new games to anybody, and likely weaken DP's ability to fight off what /might/ be a hostile CM.

So you're saying we only have one option here. Pray DP pulls-through.
If I wanted to click heels, I would've bought Wizard of Oz

maybe the pinball community would have rallied to their side in a gofundme legal defense for them.

A GoFundMe legal defense? Really?!
DP could technically be deemed a non-profit organization, but I think we've donated enough time and money to this "charity drive."
That's like me asking DP to pay for my speeding ticket or casino tab.

#7382 5 years ago

Universal did not approve any contract manufacturer, they don't give a shit who or how its made, that was smoke and mirrors

#7383 5 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

It's odd that people are starting to think they shouldn't have taken salaries. How were they supposed to eat?
It's just as odd that people think DP shouldn't have gone to pinball events to promote their game. They don't sell themselves.

I can understand a very modest salary while your company is getting off the ground and while you are performing full time work for said company. My beef is taking a salary while nothing is happening. Nothing has been happening for most of the 4 plus years now. Attending to self-inflicted wounds is not a legitimate use of 'salary'.

How long do you think one should take a 'salary' from loaned money under those circumstances? What would your bank say about using your line of credit in this manner. (hint, they would say no.). The EA's are/were the bank. So I can say whatever the hell I want about misuse of these funds.

I understand traveling and promoting your product when you need the sales. Not when you have a backorder of hundreds of units and you need to conserve cash. Not to promote a dumbass non-TBL idea (BOP 25). Not to engage another CM when you haven't resolved the situation with your current CM.

Just because something starts out feeling legit does not mean it didn't take a turn somewhere into scam territory - intentionally or unintentionally. Jaap and Barry made decisions with our money and on this project that hurt the EA's and benefitted them personally - gave them 4 plus years of 'salaried employment'. Now it looks like we are paying legal bills for their self-serving and poor decisions. That feels scammy to me.

What is the difference, at this point, between what Jpop did with investors money and what DP has done and is doing?

#7384 5 years ago

There is no choice, they must draw a salary out of the company, according to dutch tax law. They might put that money back in the company after paying income tax, who knows.

#7385 5 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

Universal did not approve any contract manufacturer, they don't give a shit who or how its made, that was smoke and mirrors

Don't be a schmuck.

DP TBL.jpgDP TBL.jpg

#7386 5 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Universal has to approve and sign-off on the CM as well, which is part of the licensing agreement. DP couldn't proceed with Xytech without Universal's approval. This is how DP got an extension on TBL license during that transition.
There will be a point where Universal reaches its threshold on these "running changes."
Based on your theory, Stern would still be pumping out classics like TRON: Legacy (Pro) and Lord of the Rings

I don't claim to have any insight into Stern's decisions on which pin to build.

But I assure you that licenses are available for anything (or almost anything), for the right price. Some licenses (Dune, The Lord of the Rings, Elric) have IP holders that are very wary, but getting a license for a movie that is already out, particularly one decades old is always going to be available.

As an aside, I thought I heard a rumor that Stern's next vault edition was LOTR, though, with an upgraded screen. I also seem to recall Gomez saying something about Stern's ability to bring back old titles, oh maybe a year ago? I guess we'll find out in the next few weeks/months about LOTR. I'd sure love to see a TRON VE, especially with a big LCD showing clips like SW.

Quoted from highdef:

And some titles just don't sell at all (ie, BoP25)

No question there.

Quoted from highdef:

You don't renegotiate immediately after start of production.

I can think of several reasons why a contractor would renegotiate immediately after the start of production.

Parts cost could have gone up. Exchange rates could have changed. They could have deeply underestimated the cost of building any components. Their labor costs could have gone up or been severely underestimated. The CM could have lost key workers or other contracts, or gained more lucrative contracts. Some contractors will just screw you over if they think they can make more money - I have plenty of stories about that happening. Some contractors go from job to job screwing over customers due to shoddy workmanship. I can tell you all kinds of stories about that. There are any number of reasons that could trigger the CM to renegotiate. We don't know, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible, or that rational actors aren't making decisions based on information we don't know.

Quoted from highdef:

So you're saying we only have one option here. Pray DP pulls-through.
If I wanted to click heels, I would've bought Wizard of Oz

That was really funny I'm glad you still have a sense of humor about this.

I'm saying two things:

1) Looking at it from the outside as someone who has both been a contractor and dealt with many contractors, that this whole story is not finished yet. Plenty of companies have been close to death and recovered, Stern included.

2) The window for a refund is currently closed. If they win and if they start producing TBLs again, that window could open again. But right now trying to get a refund by taking legal action is highly unlikely to result in money flowing in a positive direction, and will very likely accelerate the demise of DP. At a minimum the current CM lawsuit will have to play out before any customer could possibly see a penny.

There may well be other options than just pray or sue. I haven't thought about it hard enough.

Quoted from highdef:

A GoFundMe legal defense? Really?!
DP could technically be deemed a non-profit organization, but I think we've donated enough time and money to this "charity drive."
That's like me asking DP to pay for my speeding ticket or casino tab.

Hey now, I get that you're livid about this whole thing... I sure would be. But don't go taking what I said out of context. I love pinball as much as you do.

I said IF they had done a better job of communicating their plight, MAYBE instead of what is happening now the pinball community MIGHT have rallied to them. I bet it would really have helped them, but they may not have been able to due to non-disclosure agreements, or other reasons.

11
#7387 5 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Don't be a schmuck.

Unfortunately, DP has not been completely truthful in the past. Makes it hard to accept their quoted communications as fact.

#7388 5 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Parts cost could have gone up. Exchange rates could have changed. They could have deeply underestimated the cost of building any components. Their labor costs could have gone up or been severely underestimated. The CM could have lost key workers or other contracts, or gained more lucrative contracts.

The cost of parts would not have gone up during this time period, especially if they already ordered them for all 300 games. We're talking nickels or a few bucks here and there -- not $1000 Euros. The exchange rate would not have fluctuated enough to affect BOM either, and even if it did, that's how the wind blows for both sides. Labor costs could have increased but that should have been built into the agreed unit price/FOB. Again, we're talking $1000 Euros here.

I personally feel it boils down to the recouping of pre-production engineering development costs or lack of post-manufacturing payment. I think the development of BoP25 could be tied to all of it. This is just my 2 cents.

Quoted from Brijam:

Plenty of companies have been close to death and recovered, Stern included.

I do know what you're saying, but these are two different companies/scenarios. One is much bigger with a longer history, while DP is technically a start-up with little or no history, let alone manufacturing, relationships, and substantial revenue.

Quoted from Brijam:

There may well be other options than just pray or sue.

The issue I and others have is the lack of confidence DP has provided to us. We received this news via email in a nonchalant manner/tone. I know there's only so much they can say, but their delivery is really concerning. If I owed you $8500, I would try to be as comforting and communicative in as many ways as possible to ensure you felt confident in my ability to repay you. A web conference with EAs would've been better than email, even if it meant us shooting arrows at DP. They have not convinced us that we won't become "phantom" creditors sometime in the foreseeable future.

Quoted from Brijam:

I get that you're livid about this whole thing... I sure would be. But don't go taking what I said out of context.

All good! Nothing personal. We're just having a normal conversation.
There's not much we can do here other than talk and speculate amongst ourselves.
Unfortunately, there are other Pinsiders here who clearly don't know what they're talking about. I wish these people would exit this thread for the sanity of those with money on the line (or a game in their possession).

#7389 5 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Unfortunately, there are other Pinsiders here who clearly don't know what they're talking about.

What?! That's crazy talk.

#7390 5 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Unfortunately, some things DP has said in the past have turned out to not be true.

Agree 100%

Quoted from Jvspin:

Makes it hard to accept their quoted communications as fact.

Do you really believe Universal told DP to "carry on as you wish" (or with whomever) and granted an extension on the license without due diligence?
Have you ever licensed a major property and put your name on it?
Let's be real here.

#7391 5 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Agree 100%

Do you really believe Universal told DP to "carry on as you wish" (or with whomever) and granted an extension on the license without due diligence?
Have you ever licensed a major property and put your name on it?
Let's be real here.

I really don't know what to believe. Can you be certain they even communicated with Universal and got approval and an extension?

Not saying they didn't, but to me, once a company starts lying, all bets are off.

#7392 5 years ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

What?! That's crazy talk.

I certainly don't know everything, but I have developed and shipped over $1B in consumer/professional products. I think it's fair to say that I have some experience in this field.

#7393 5 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

I really don't know what to believe. Can you be certain they even communicated with Universal and got approval and an extension?
Not saying they didn't, but to me, once a company starts lying, all bets are off.

I agree 100%
No argument here.

#7394 5 years ago

You all forgot who negotiated the license? Roger sharpe it is and he has been their liaison towards US all the time.

You think he is unaware of this and is prepared to set his reputation with US on the line for DP? I bet he is fully informed by DP and has informed US also. There was a license and there is a license.

And than all these lies apparently DP told. Besides the PCB lie, what are they? Is it about deadlines not met? That would only be a lie in my book if they told a deadline knowing they couldn’t make it. Pls enlighten me. My memory is not flawless (no pun intended).

And no, I am not on a saving crusade for DP. Just trying to keep the story as straight as possible. If somebody thinks he should go after DP by all means do so. Just do it based on the right info. My believe is that getting DP bankrupt will play ÄRA right into their hands and will end the story for all of us. But that’s my believe and doesn’t mean it should also be yours.

It’s not a situation I like but it’s reality, for me at least.

Just my 2 cents (again). Flame suit on.

#7395 5 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

I certainly don't know everything, but I have developed and shipped over $1B in consumer/professional products. I think it's fair to say that I have some experience in this field.

Not saying you don't @highdef. My post was merely a sarcastic comment given that this thread continues to contain a lot of uninformed contentions, misinformation, and rampant speculation.

#7396 5 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

Besides the PCB lie

That is the blatant one I was remembering. Edited initial post.

#7397 5 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

You all forgot who negotiated the license? Roger sharpe it is and he has been their liaison towards US all the time.
You think he is unaware of this and is prepared to set his reputation with US on the line for DP? I bet he is fully informed by DP and has informed US also. There was a license and there is a license.

No, he was brought in AFTER the fact to clean things up. And when have you last heard from Roger on the subject of his contract work with DP? Pretty sure it was all before the ARA blowup.. and nothing since. Please correct me if you've seen or had any correspondence with Sharpe on the DP game since the xytech plan came to light.

Sharpe doesn't have any reputation on the line... he did contract work and moved on.

#7398 5 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

It’s not a situation I like but it’s reality, for me at least.
Just my 2 cents (again). Flame suit on.

You make valid points Rensh.
I agree that our options are super limited. I hope this gets quickly resolved through court-ordered mediation, which is probably a stipulation of their contract with ARA.
I hope I'm wrong and that DP actually has a case against ARA. Both parties will have to compromise in one way or another. I just hope DP does what's best for us vs. them.

#7399 5 years ago

flynnibus if i am not mistaken Roger Sharpe was at the Expo last October when DP introduced XYTECH for the first time. So what is the consensus for all of us EA's sit and hope for a miracle? Take some kind of action? I think what is going on here is a lot of back and forth conjecture, but nothing of real substance that is going to get us anywhere.
http://funwithbonus.com/expo-blitz-xytech-and-dutch-pinball/

#7400 5 years ago
Quoted from jpk1972:

flynnibus if i am not mistaken Roger Sharpe was at the Expo last October when DP introduced XYTECH for the first time. So what is the consensus for all of us EA's sit and hope for a miracle? Take some kind of action? I think what is going on here is a lot of back and forth conjecture, but nothing of real substance that is going to get us anywhere.
http://funwithbonus.com/expo-blitz-xytech-and-dutch-pinball/

Thx for that.. I see he was off camera and acknowledged. Good to know he showed face at that stage.

It seems like your only action is to either
a) try to force some consumer protection action in the netherlands
or
b) wait out this next round of back and forth

I mean.. you've waited this long. I don't think #1 is going to be anything but a moral victory.. Collecting (let alone seeing an action through to completion) is likely far more frustration than its worth. Unless somehow people organize enough for representation with the local dutch.. then you get judgements against a broke company maybe?

Until someone knows how the xytech operation was to be funded.. it seems very dark that there might be any DP/ARA resolution that results in production from ARA

There are a lot of 'customer first' hopes out there.. but reality is they are usually the last I guess some people will just hope for liquidation of the ~40 sitting games.

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