(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

5 years ago



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There are 11609 posts in this topic. You are on page 145 of 233.
#7201 1 year ago

DP "overextended" (depleted) themselves prior to production beginning in March 2016. They were most likely banking on new investment from an outside source or new game like "Pinbot's Baby Mama 3.0." That obviously fell through and shiz hit the fan. DP didn't have the money to pay ARA for 200 or so preorder games, otherwise, this would have been done to save money (and time) on the unit volume. I don't see a CM dedicating and holding-up labor and production line(s) in small batches so that DP could pay in increments.

#7202 1 year ago

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#7203 1 year ago

All of this is interesting and painful speculation being that I am fully paid and out my investment. While I took issue with Highdef prior to this announcement, I think a collective demand letter to Universal, and possibly, ARA are a reasonable next step.

I am not an attorney and would like to invite the input of someone who has a stake in this and is qualified to comment. I would be willing to be the wingman to a licensed attorney willing to donate his/her time to help organize this.

Any thoughts on this approach?????

16
#7204 1 year ago

Here’s the story in a nutshell.

DP has been full of shit for a long time.

Barry and Jaap were terrible stewards of their customers money and one lie led to another. Finally the house of cards came tumbling down.

None of this is a surprise at this point.

Rensh, I told you your friends were full of shit.

#7205 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

He's the last sycophant standing.

I KNEW he'd downvote you for that.
What a troll/puss!

#7206 1 year ago
Quoted from highdef:

I KNEW he'd downvote you for that.
What a troll/puss!

He downvotes everything I post. He used to engage, but just downvotes now. I used to do that too...it’s easier than replying to people you don’t like....but at that point I just started putting people on ignore if I didn’t want to read their posts or engage with them. Poof. Gone. Life is better.

#7207 1 year ago
Quoted from Hjbondar:

Any thoughts on this approach?????

Universal isn't on the hook for this. You can piss them off all you want, but all they might do is pull the license (if they have a clause allowing them to) and tell you to quit calling.
ARA also has no obligation to you.

You do have a claim against DP, but I guarantee they're judgement proof. So you can get whatever court order you want, there's no way they'll be able to pay you.

Because of this, there's no way any attorney will take the case. It's a huge hassle as they're on the other side of the globe and there is zero upside for winning.

This is a horrible situation for the pinball community and especially a group of people who were so enthusiastic they offered to front the money to create something awesome and further the community even more.

I would look into small claims court so you can do this as cheaply as possible. Then you get in line as a creditor and get your prorated share of what's left of DP (not much)... at least you'll get the satisfaction of a court ruling that way and maybe $50 for your trouble

#7208 1 year ago
Quoted from Adams:

Universal isn't on the hook for this. You can piss them off all you want, but all they might do is pull the license (if they have a clause allowing them to) and tell you to quit calling.

Sounds like you're well-versed on the law.

Quoted from Adams:

ARA also has no obligation to you.

Agree 100%

Quoted from Adams:

I would look into small claims court so you can do this as cheaply as possible. Then you get in line as a creditor and get your prorated share of what's left of DP (not much)... at least you'll get the satisfaction of a court ruling that way and maybe $50 for your trouble

That statement definitely proves you are NOT well-versed on the law. DP doesn't do business in any US state. Jurisdiction falls under The Netherlands, therefore, you can't sue DP in Small Claims here in the US.

#7209 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Following questions are aimed at the world's greatest legal minds of Pinside: Suppose there are 50 fully built TBL in crates and there exist enough parts to build 50 complete games. Nobody has a license to make and sell more TBL games and we don't know who will end up possessing these games. But after the cases are resolved...
1) If the games exist, can the owning party openly sell the 50 TBL's, given they were made at a time the license was active?
2) Could 50 games be "assembled" from the parts be openly sold under the original license agreement described above OR would they be forced to build and deliver them for free to the next 50 EA's on the list?

1. Depends on the license terms. Assuming the license fees were paid the games should be a licensed product capable of being resold. Would need the license agreement to know for sure but any decent lawyer would have made it so stock could be sold after the license expires (just as long as fees were paid up!) Your question(s) focus on licensing rights but the issue here appears to be that someone is holding an asset because they haven’t been paid. Two entirely different issues.

2. I don’t know if I understand the second question. It seems to relate to the license agreement and, again, we’d need its terms.

Remember that contracts are a series of promises which when broken trigger the ability to seek remedy. If all the license holder is entitled to was $X per game and they were paid that then no harm no foul and the license agreement isn’t violated if the games get released after the manufacturer litigation is resolved. I would guess the agreement has a tail in it to sell existing stock but some governor to prevent someone from selling licensed items way beyond the intended time period.

I stress this is all generalized from my experience and I have not seen the DP contract.

What I will say - and I’m sorry to say it because no one will appreciate hearing it... under US law someone who pre pays for something becomes an unsecured creditor. When a company goes under a lot of people are in front of the unsecured. So if your questions surround whether the 50 games get released to you eventually I think your biggest threat isn’t the license agreement... it is the line of OTHER creditors that will acquire the games first. (I’m applying American law here I can’t speak for Dutch or EU laws). If DP is forced to liquidate those games may be sold to pay creditors...

#7210 1 year ago
Quoted from highdef:

That statement definitely proves you are NOT well-versed on the law. DP doesn't do business in any US state. Jurisdiction falls under The Netherlands, therefore, you can't sue DP in Small Claims here in the US.

Your contract dictates where you can sue. If the contract is silent then other facts dictate where you can sue. There is a strong chance he can sue in California. The real issue is he has no contract with Universal. That is what makes it difficult and potentially pointless.

Edit: I’m not sure if these threads were talking about a suit against Universal or DP...

#7211 1 year ago
Quoted from brainmegaphone:

Your contract dictates where you can sue. If the contract is silent then other facts dictate where you can sue. There is a strong chance he can sue in California.

Not in Small Claims!

The Netherlands has jurisdiction because the contract was performed in part there and because the defendant is based there.

A recent U.S. Supreme Court decision, Daimler A.G. v. Bauman, 134 S. Ct. 746 (2014), held that a company can be sued on any matter ONLY where it is "at home" (i.e. has a headquarters or near equivalent secondary headquarters, or if it is organized under that jurisdiction's laws), and otherwise can only be sued in a place that has a significant connection to the subject-matter of the particular lawsuit.

#7212 1 year ago
Quoted from highdef:

Not in Small Claims!
The Netherlands has jurisdiction because the contract was performed in part there and because the defendant is based there.
A recent U.S. Supreme Court decision, Daimler A.G. v. Bauman, 134 S. Ct. 746 (2014), held that a company can be sued on any matter ONLY where it is "at home" (i.e. has a headquarters or near equivalent secondary headquarters, or if it is organized under that jurisdiction's laws), and otherwise can only be sued in a place that has a significant connection to the subject-matter of the particular lawsuit.

Please don’t quote or cite cases to confuse people. That case’s facts and circumstances are not the same. It involved a foreign company and a subsidiary... completely different situation as far as I can tell.

Let’s leave it at this - owners that want to take legal action should bring their contracts to a lawyer qualified to practice in their home state. Chances are you are going to get a judgment against a bankrupt company but that is your choice.

#7213 1 year ago
Quoted from brainmegaphone:

Please don’t quote or cite cases to confuse people. That case’s facts and circumstances are not the same. It involved a foreign company and a subsidiary... completely different situation as far as I can tell.

It's not a completely different case.
In 2016, I bought a CPO Mercedes from a Chicago-area MB dealership and had it shipped to California. The car arrived with several defects and undisclosed issues. The contract was signed here in California. I couldn't sue the dealership or Mercedes-Benz USA in California because they do not "conduct business" here in California. I had to sue them in Illinois where I bought the car. The same would happen if I bought the car is a neighboring California county. I'd have to sue the dealership/manufacturer in THEIR county.

Quoted from brainmegaphone:

owners that want to take legal action should bring their contracts to a lawyer qualified to practice in their home state.

What "contracts?"

#7214 1 year ago
Quoted from highdef:

That statement definitely proves you are NOT well-versed on the law. DP doesn't do business in any US state. Jurisdiction falls under The Netherlands, therefore, you can't sue DP in Small Claims here in the US.

That's kind of harsh... also not accurate. Though I should have been more specific, so I'll take the blame on this one.

When I said "look into small claims court", I mean in the Netherlands.

You're correct it would be difficult to gain standing in any state court. Maybe possible in federal court, but even if you could, it's not practical for loads of other reasons.

Filing a small claim in the Netherlands may be possible over the internet though. You would definitely have jurisdiction and as a bonus: you're usually reimbursed for court expenses if you win in Europe.

highdef is also correct in that I am NOT well versed in european law. I don't have any specific advice, but a simple google search turned up this as a good place to start: https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/sell-abroad/resolving-disputes/small-claims/index_en.htm

#7215 1 year ago

highdef- I don’t want to get into a legal argument (that isn’t relevant to the DP mess) here or convince you of the law or why that case is different than the one we are discussing. I’m just politely asking you not to post information which may confuse or discourage someone from pursuing an attorney licensed in their state to answer any questions they have. If anyone here is located in Connecticut, Rhode Island or NY and wants to PM me to discuss their specific circumstances I’ll assist as a favor to a fellow pinsider.

#7216 1 year ago
Quoted from Adams:

That's kind of harsh... also not accurate. Though I should have been more specific, so I'll take the blame on this one.
When I said "look into small claims court", I mean in the Netherlands.
You're correct it would be difficult to gain standing in any state court. Maybe possible in federal court, but even if you could, it's not practical for loads of other reasons.
Filing a small claim in the Netherlands may be possible over the internet though. You would definitely have jurisdiction and as a bonus: you're usually reimbursed for court expenses if you win in Europe.
highdef is also correct in that I am NOT well versed in european law. I don't have any specific advice, but a simple google search turned up this as a good place to start: https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/sell-abroad/resolving-disputes/small-claims/index_en.htm

No worries. You'll have to forgive any projected hostility. I've had a 24-hour headache due to this issue.

#7217 1 year ago
Quoted from RobT:

TELL ME AGAIN WHY I SHOULD PREORDER A PIN

Thanks - this is helpful.

#7218 1 year ago
Quoted from brainmegaphone:

highdef- I don’t want to get into a legal argument (that isn’t relevant to the DP mess) here or convince you of the law or why that case is different than the one we are discussing. I’m just politely asking you not to post information which may confuse or discourage someone from pursuing an attorney licensed in their state to answer any questions they have. If anyone here is located in Connecticut, Rhode Island or NY and wants to PM me to discuss their specific circumstances I’ll assist as a favor to a fellow pinsider.

As discussed in PM, I think it's commendable that you're willing to assist Pinsiders in need.

#7219 1 year ago
Quoted from brainmegaphone:

Chances are you are going to get a judgment against a bankrupt company but that is your choice.

You spelled "judgment" correctly.

I smell an attorney.

#7220 1 year ago
Quoted from Adams:

You're correct it would be difficult to gain standing in any state court. Maybe possible in federal court, but even if you could, it's not practical for loads of other reasons.

Please be careful when you make statements like this. Unless you have read the sales contract that applies no one can make this statement and be accurate. There is a reasonable chance people have standing in state court but no one could say for sure without seeing a contract or knowing what state the transaction occurred in.

Whether they want to throw more good money at this to get a judgment against a company that may be bankrupt is a separate issue...

My only goal here is to prevent incorrect information on the law being spread. It tends to occur in threads like this. I would politely ask everyone to stop making statements of law which may discourage or mislead others.

#7221 1 year ago
Quoted from RTR:

I don't think they have good news to tell us. Just a hunch, but when they have the faintest whiff of something good they drop it on us as fast as they can. No news is usually bad news with these guys. And good news is frequently bullshit stalling.

Well shit. Looks like my hunch was right.

#7222 1 year ago

I think I am pulling for ARA. What about you guys? Add a poll?

#7223 1 year ago
Quoted from brainmegaphone:

Please be careful when you make statements like this. Unless you have read the sales contract that applies no one can make this statement and be accurate. There is a reasonable chance people have standing in state court but no one could say for sure without seeing a contract or knowing what state the transaction occurred in.
Whether they want to throw more good money at this to get a judgment against a company that may be bankrupt is a separate issue...
My only goal here is to prevent incorrect information on the law being spread. It tends to occur in threads like this. I would politely ask everyone to stop making statements of law which may discourage or mislead others.

I need to get you up to speed, which I'll do via PM. I think this is why we're not aligned/in agreement on some of the points being made.

#7225 1 year ago

This document cost me $9:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jey68fidqf20yg1/uittreksel_handelsregister_59188146.pdf?dl=0

My attorney is $450/hr, so I got taxed on that earlier today as well. This game is a gift that keeps on giving. I should probably find another hobby.

I do have a more interesting discovery that I'll share later this evening after I've cleared my head with exercise.

#7226 1 year ago
Quoted from Nikonokin:

I'm literally the next in line. So...this is extra painful.

At least you weren't stupid enough to have a machine sitting at Cointaker's warehouse waiting on you and then you traded it for a future machine that was yet to be built!!!!! That guy!! LOLOLOL!!!!!

Oh wait, that was me...dammit.

#7227 1 year ago

Can you EAs kindly check your old preorder confirmation emails from 2013, 2014, and/or 2015 and confirm whether your "Order Status Page" link still works?

DP (resized).jpg

#7228 1 year ago
Quoted from RTR:

At least you weren't stupid enough to have a machine sitting at Cointaker's warehouse waiting on you and then you traded it for a future machine that was yet to be built!!!!! That guy!! LOLOLOL!!!!!
Oh wait, that was me...dammit.

At #59, I'm close behind nikonokin, but I thought of you RTR and the cruel hand fate dealt you when you traded your in-country TBL for a later #. Hindsight can be a bitch and unfortunately none of us "Early Achievers" are going to feel any better now by wondering "what if ..." .

#7229 1 year ago
Quoted from highdef:

Can you EAs kindly check your old preorder confirmation emails from 2013, 2014, and/or 2015 and confirm whether your "Order Status Page" link still works?

My link isn't working any longer and I'm getting this message:

"The page url you are visiting is not correct or the order has been closed."

#7230 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

My link isn't working any longer and I'm getting this message:
"The page url you are visiting is not correct or the order has been closed."

Thanks Tuna! I hope others will confirm as well, but I think it's safe to say they'll say the same.

My order page was active earlier today because I took a screenshot of it. Why does the link no longer work? Why would the order be "closed?"
That's not suspicious?!

Barry and Jaap think they're slick! I know you're both reading this, so know that I'm going to respond in the name of consumer advocacy.

#7231 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

My link isn't working any longer and I'm getting this message:
"The page url you are visiting is not correct or the order has been closed."

Same message here

#7232 1 year ago
Quoted from Dr_Spaceman:

Same message here

Barry and Jaap are "sweeping up" and preparing for doomsday. That's so dirty.
I wish I could've given everyone a heads-up, but I didn't know it'd get pulled today. I'm glad I got the screenshot in time.
Shows you how much confidence they have in surviving this mess.
Also proves that these guys are not as clean as people make them out to be (shame on me).

#7233 1 year ago

On a positive note, maybe they'll give those last three (was it three?) prototypes to the next 3 Early Achievers in line. That would be sweet.

I mean, what is going to come of those last few Japanese prototypes out there. Anybody know?

#7234 1 year ago
Quoted from kklank:

On a positive note, maybe they'll give those last three (was it three?) prototypes to the next 3 Early Achievers in line. That would be sweet.
I mean, what is going to come of those last few Japanese prototypes out there. Anybody know?

That’s a nice thought but realistically we only need look to Heighway Pinball in how they disposed of inventory at the end.

-18
#7235 1 year ago

It's a good thing you guys are rich and can afford to keep going to court because you don't know how to stop pre-ordering pins.

18
#7237 1 year ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

It's a good thing you guys are rich and can afford to keep going to court because you don't know how to stop pre-ordering pins.

These orders were from 2014 before shit hit the fan with all these boutique maniacs. That’s a real shitbag move to come in here and “I told you so” people with the benefit of time & hindsight.

#7238 1 year ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

It's a good thing you guys are rich and can afford to keep going to court because you don't know how to stop pre-ordering pins.

Don't be a d*uche.

#7239 1 year ago

1) Are there any EAs located in Illinois? Please PM me.

2) Is it possible to get a roll call of active Pinsiders who paid in full? Please PM me if you haven't already and want to be noted.

#7240 1 year ago
Quoted from highdef:

1) Are there any EAs located in Illinois? Please PM me.
2) Is it possible to get a roll call of active Pinsiders who paid in full? Please PM me if you haven't already and want to be noted.

Dude, for what reason?

#7241 1 year ago
Quoted from RTR:

Dude, for what reason?

Asking for a friend.

#7242 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

These orders were from 2014 before shit hit the fan with all these boutique maniacs. That’s a real shitbag move to come in here and “I told you so” people with the benefit of time & hindsight.

Yeah, I always thought that it was a shitbag move every time my parents said it too.

#7243 1 year ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

Yeah, I always thought that it was a shitbag move every time my parents said it too.

Good to know it runs in the family and it's not just you

#7244 1 year ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

Good to know it runs in the family and it's not just you

Nope, not just me.

I figured I can keep making the same stupid mistakes or start learning from others who did the same.

#7245 1 year ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

Nope, not just me.
I figured I can keep making the same stupid mistakes or start learning from others who did the same.

Looks like everyone agrees with you. Kick rocks!

#7246 1 year ago
Quoted from RTR:

At least you weren't stupid enough to have a machine sitting at Cointaker's warehouse waiting on you and then you traded it for a future machine that was yet to be built!!!!! That guy!! LOLOLOL!!!!!
Oh wait, that was me...dammit.

Now why would you do that?

#7247 1 year ago
Quoted from highdef:

This document cost me $9:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jey68fidqf20yg1/uittreksel_handelsregister_59188146.pdf?dl=0
My attorney is $450/hr, so I got taxed on that earlier today as well. This game is a gift that keeps on giving. I should probably find another hobby.
I do have a more interesting discovery that I'll share later this evening after I've cleared my head with exercise.

What is the more interesting discovery?

#7248 1 year ago
Quoted from RTR:

At least you weren't stupid enough to have a machine sitting at Cointaker's warehouse waiting on you and then you traded it for a future machine that was yet to be built!!!!! That guy!! LOLOLOL!!!!!
Oh wait, that was me...dammit.

This haunts me my friend! I never in a million years saw this coming, I figured you would have my game within 2 or 3 months tops. When I got my/your TBL I thought you were the smart one as I ended up having issues with the early production game and could not get a response from DP for weeks, I ended up calling Melissa at CT and asked her to try to contact DP for me. I finally got an email from Jaap more than a month later but he was no help in diagnosing the game at all, I ended up fixing the issues myself and decided I would sell the game and buy a later production game after they got the bugs worked out. It made me nervous to think that if something went wrong again I would have no support and not even have a real manual for the game.
After I sold my TBL I purchased a later production game (I think it was in the #130 range) and literally the morning after I mailed the check for the game DP broke the news that the deal had blown up with ARA and production had stopped (at this point I was ready to seek psychiatric help for my pre order disorder) but miraculously the very awesome pinsider I sent the cashiers check to for his EA TBL called me and said he didn't feel right about the situation as the company appears to have gone tits up and he didn't even have my check yet so he would send my check back as soon as he received it.
Even though I got my TBL I am a JPOP pre order veteran (we know how well that ended) so I know how this feels and I am very sorry for all involved, especially you RTR!

#7249 1 year ago

I should have listened to Phil .....ie smacking my head against wall ..

#7250 1 year ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

What is the more interesting discovery?

I blew my load prematurely right after that post with a follow-up post on the disappearing Order Pages. Sorry if I overhyped it, but it is still very concerning.
It's also not wise for me to disclose too much information here.

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