It would be foolish to communicate their legal intentions before actually enacting them.

Their communication has been continuously poor, but in that set of circumstances, I don't think much else can be expected.

This is one I didn’t see coming. Didn’t expect a claim from ÄRA anymore after such a long time. If it already is not difficult enough to make a pinball .....

Feels like the beginning of the end

This is the end of the line Donny

If DP was truthful, this ARA situation might be good. Just lengthy. It's interesting the timing...right as production is supposed to start. If DP lied and ARA has them, why wait so long, why fire the people at ARA, makes no sense. And if the latter is the case, do they think a group of people with pockets deep enough to blow 9K on a toy will just go away quietly?...

So what the f??& would Ara do with the 40 hostage units sitting in their warehouse. If they win then they should be released to customers.

Exactly.

I'm literally the next in line. So...this is extra painful.

That’s incredibly naive. I’ve been saying for years that ARA was not going to just walk away. They've spent a lot of money on this project, allegedly weren’t paid, and are sitting on 40-50 games for years, plus 100’s of games worth of parts.

DP’s best option was always to take ARA’s 51/49 deal. That was the only way these were gonna get finished. They let ego get in the way of a tough but rational business decision. Starting from scratch was always another money pit & putting their head in the sand about ARA was never going to end well.

ARA probably was advised to wait until later to start the process to maximize the damage it could cause DP. Terrible news.

Very sad and unfortunate news. I feel terribly for those with money invested and sincerely hope you either get a refund at this point. I was high on the preorder list (new money) and was really looking forward to us all getting our machines.

With this new information i think now would be a good time to collectivize and pursue damages with Universal - any thoughts?

and all this for a pinball about a movie about getting the money.

ughh.. sorry guys

Wouw, horrible news.

I wonder how long this will delay the production, months if not years?

Hjbondar count me in please! I will do anything we need to try help us EA's get some closure.

Of course, but do you really think they would have come clean today if yesterday's barrage of posts didn't happen? I don't believe so. This has been brewing for quite some time.
As I've already said, DP should have worked it out with ARA long before engaging other suppliers. We are back to square one and I don't think DP has a leg to stand on. DP teaming up with Xytech probably added fuel to ARA's fire. I'm shocked it took them this long to take action against DP.

Speculation, but all Ara wants out of this at this point is to break even.

Like Bally Williams was liquidated forcefully and split up end if 90’s , Ara just wants to sell off the units in stock when DP are bust, and this is the moment to do it, when fully comitted to a new party financially.

The board at ara would have done this anyhow with their 51 percent share. Sell the units, close the division, break even..

DP tried, in vain.? Who knows, time will tell, but the money is now not going into games but lawyers pockets.. what a waste;(

Sad day , for all involved

DP will need to pay ARA for those remaining units before they're released. I'm sure ARA is annoyed that 40 or so units are taking up significant space in their warehouse.

I doubt DP ordered parts to start production at Xytech. If they did (which I don't believe), they are REALLY focked -- much like we are right now.

Steigerpijp - I think you nailed it. The money now goes to the lawyers. Very sad end to a dream machine!

Yes, dp did care for pinball and its clients , ARA never did.

A board of directors needs good numbers at the end of the year, no matter what.

Collateral damage, us how this will be looked at, same goes for the former ceo that got sacked

Anyone have a knowledgeable estimate as to how long this may take in the Dutch legal system - best and worst case? I realize that it will no doubt depend on a number of variables, but I'm hoping that it's faster than the US legal system seems to be.

Please - no uninformed speculation or smart-ass responses from "Donnies". Thanks.

So this seems like those 40ish boxed up units could be freed up either way. DP wins and could get access to them at original rate. ARA wins and DP pays at new rate and games get released. I have a hijacked game so just trying to see some potential closure on this.

some sad shit , Ive been paid in full for years and couldn't wait to get my game (low 100's)....just made 50 machines in the wild worth a whole lot of money ! Im in on any way to retrieve some or all of my money ...

It’s bad news for those who already have their games as well! no parts availability, no code updates and no support. This could turn the existing games into paper weights if something breaks.

Delay? You chalk this up to a DELAY!?

It's over.

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They ain't acting.......

Hey EternalLife -

You downvote anyone that posts something "negative" (but true) about DP, yet you never voice your opinion on why you disagree.
Do you know something we don't know? If so, stop hiding in the shadows and tell us your thoughts on this mess so that we can better understand your optimistic viewpoint.

When do YOU expect to see resolution and/or games back on the assembly line?
Should EAs just sit back and wait another few years for this to work itself out?

of all the startups, DP did parts selection correctly, they did not reinvent wheel. P-ROC and linux pc based. i bought a spare PC and cloned hard drive awhile ago. pinball mechs all bally/williams. obviously custom molds and ramps.. yes if those crack its sucky. but, that's true of any of the older games.

So I thought I remember way back during the ARA initial fiasco DP indicating that if they were put in the position they are currently in it might take up to 5 years to litigate. Is this really possible if DP is telling the truth and ARA is in breach of contract? Like most the rest of you EA's I believe this is definitely done, but can we look at how we might possibly recoup some/all of our $$$$? Until we are told there is no way I have to think we can exhaust our efforts as a collective group.

I was #62 and just missed the last boat....

I'm seriously glad you got your game Tom. You were a solid contributor here, even after you got your game.
I do hope it stays operational for years to come.

Judge/Mediator: "Where did the money that preorder customers paid you in-full go?"
DP: "We got sued by our contract manufacturer (ARA). We then filed a countersuit againt them."
Judge/Mediator: "So how did you pay for these newly-incurred legal costs? Did you use the preorder money to cover these expenses?"
DP: "Ummm....uhhhhh....we will come with a new update in a few weeks, or when there’s other significant news."

Perhaps, but there's no reason except pride not to. They don't really have anything left to lose, so it'd be stupid to try to conceal it. It'd eventually break in the Dutch community anyway.

On the contrary. If they want to play wrecker, this is the perfect time for ARA to try to throw a spanner in the works. But probably the worst possible time if they actually think they have a good case and could force a financial settlement to mitigate their losses or resources invested.

What ever funds DP had left will probably go to lawyers now, and I can't believe if they had a loan facility with Xytech that would extend to lawyers or settlements.

Either way, pretty grim.

It really is bad for everyone involved, including the lucky few of us to have received the machine. I’m honestly not interested in owning a rare game - I bought Lebowski for the love of the theme, and would much prefer that everyone else receives their game than end up with a theoretically valuable object which I have no intention of selling.

Personally, I’m less worried about spare parts / code updates / support than my fellow achievers being made whole to some degree. I really hope DP manage to somehow salvage the situation.

+1

I think you guys are owed a better explanation. It sound like they have received an initial lawsuit which they have counter claimed but it doesn’t speak to it being an injunction forcing them to stop production. Companies are sued for damages all the time and continue to operate unless an injunction is issued (I’m talking American law here since I don’t know Dutch law).

Without more details (are the court documents public?) it seems to me they are using this event as an excuse to officially announce the shut down. It isn’t that the suit actually CAUSED the shut down... maybe this is their way of deflecting their failure by closing at the same time the lawsuit came out.

Seems that way

The pattern of behavior continues....

I doubt Xytech would want to go ahead with production if there was a hanging legal judgement, the result of which could entail another party vying for the monies they hope to be paid.

Of course they would go into production. If they are paid up front or paid reasonably close to as they produce they will produce the product unless a court order forbids them to. If DP can’t pay them upfront then they were no worse off after the lawsuit than they were before it.

Companies do business all the time like this. They just take a few more steps to protect themselves. A lawsuit with a prior manufacturer is incredibly common.

Again I really believe they are using this lawsuit as an excuse to close... not that it caused the closure. Can anyone local work on finding out of the court documents are available publicly? In nearly every jurisdiction in America they would be. Sometimes online even.

And now you found the magic phrase... IF THEY ARE PAID. DP had no way to fund the full build. One has to assume the new partnership is again one where the manufacturer is taking something in lieu of outright payment. If the ability to sell said product is in limbo, anyone in an arrangement where that is important.. is going to pause and reconsider how far they want to get in.

My issue was that they've been concealing it much longer than they've led on. Of course it was going to eventually come out, but it had to be forced out by us.

I wonder if my e-mail to XYTECH yesterday prompted a call to DP indicating someone was inquiring about the status?

I agree with you 100% but this lawsuit doesn’t make them any more or less able to pay (unless it was an injunction on production). If it was just a suit for damages demanding payment for past items built it shouldn’t stop them from going forward... at least it wouldn’t stop them in America. To stress I’d love to see what the “subpoena” DP references actually is.

Again to be clear - this lawsuit doesn’t put DP in a worse position to pay for games up front. They were already in that position before the lawsuit. This is why I have a suspicion they are using the lawsuit as a final excuse to tell everyone what they were going to tell them all along...

He's the last sycophant standing. Even Rensh isn't taking DP's side on this one.

So now everyone understands TBL is dead and the chances of getting a prepaid machine are 0.0000% and falling. Time to deal with it and to put it to bed and without anger. I don't see any manufacturer making these games either. The only people with both relavent and current experience building TBL machines, live in Netherlands or China. But let's be honest and say the Netherlands court cases gets resolved by end of 2021 at the earliest, and however they turn out the license has expired. I don't the think Alien license will be renewed for any reason (even benjamins) given the prior experiences and liabilities with DP, so nobody will be able to make them new. And all companies are assumed to still be in business. But ..

Following questions are aimed at the world's greatest legal minds of Pinside: Suppose there are 50 fully built TBL in crates and there exist enough parts to build 50 complete games. Nobody has a license to make and sell more TBL games and we don't know who will end up possessing these games. But after the Netherlands cases are resolved...

1) If the games exist, can the owning party openly sell the 50 TBL's, given they were made at a time the license was active?

2) Could 50 games be "assembled" from the parts be openly sold under the original license agreement described above OR would they be forced to build and deliver them for free to the next 50 EA's on the list?

IMG_0278 (resized).JPG

Seriously, is it really a surprise? it was sure that the dispute between ARA and DP would resurface because there are some who have been prejudiced in the history. And apparently this is ARA. it will not comfort the people who lost their money but at least we will be able to know the bottom of the problem between the 2 companies.

Xytech is immune from the DP/ARA conflict. I'd like to believe Xytech got paid for the prototypes, but I definitely don't think they've been paid for parts & labor for future production. DP would have another lawsuit against them if the "paperwork" was actually signed.

DP is an extremely tiny newcomer. They aren't pumping out widgets in the millions. We're talking very technical, time-consuming pinball machines, not $50 Bluetooth speakers. I don't know of any CMs who would front DP a significant amount of money, if any money at all. The ROI and solid track record of performance and sell-through aren't there.

Amortization puts financial risk/burden on the supplier because it might be weeks, months, or in DP's case, years before you see any revenue attached to that investment. You can amortize things like tooling, but factories generally ask for 33% to 50% of the TOTAL cost up front. When it’s time to ship the goods, you pay the rest. This is most likely why ARA pulled the plug on DP with the outstanding 40 or so games. NO PAYMENT RECEIVED ON CONTAINER #2.

A CM like ARA wouldn't build 40 units and then stop the assembly line because of a sudden misunderstanding. DP knew the drill before production began. They signed a legally-binding contract that spelled out the terms. Those terms could've set a price increase at certain quantity levels. We don't know, but ARA has more to lose by not shipping this product. Some CMs will charge you additional fees if they can't ship your product (I know this firsthand). No CM wants 40 boxed pins taking up space in their warehouse, especially when they haven't been paid for.

DP says ARA was being "unfair," but by the looks of it, they defaulted on the rightful payment owed to ARA. Perhaps the contract has some loopholes that DP is trying to use as a defense, but those machines were built with the intention of being paid for them.

You are correct on a point in isolation... but wrong in the grand scheme. Yes, this doesn't directly make them less able to pay, because it doesn't take cash away now, or prevent their ongoing business. BUT, you ignore DP doesn't have the resources to fund production outright.. nor do they likely have the bottomless resources to fight such a case AND not have an impact.

DP's main asset is the game... and the potential sales of that. With that, they can lure in partners to potential future profits. But now, that game has just been put in legal limbo... effectively hamstringing any ability DP had to leverage it for future returns. No one is going to accept future TBL gains, or future DP profits in leiu of actual payments when those assets are tied up in a legal fight that may bankrupt DP or keep TBL locked up for years.

Never any chance Xytech were going to be paid up front, that Dutch told them so, or that they thought they would be.

They'd have looked at the accounts. That would not have been possible.

So *XYTECH* would have to pay up front, hence the requirement for a mix of old and new games going out, so DP would be able to pay them.

So they'd have to be mad to green light production if someone else could jump their place in the creditor line.

Xytech itself... sure. Not sure anyone suggested otherwise. But Xytech production of TBL still relies on DP and getting paid in some way. Getting paid is either from a new large source of capital, or some arrangement to limit the capital needed up front... usually an exchange of value today, for future potential gains.

Yet, that is exactly what ARA did

And now we are back to the same 'only ARA and DP really know...' point we've been at for a year plus

Point being, brainmegaphone suggests the lawsuit shouldn't stop Xytech production. But that assumes Xytech production is either funded, or an agreement is in place to Xytech's satisfaction. And given DP's past, who really thinks Xytech would proceed with a heavy new capital intensive project without stronger garuntees given DP's situation?

What bargaining chips does DP have to convince Xytech short of 'paid in full'... which we all assume DP doesn't have the funds for.

TL: DR - Xytech may still be able to build today.. but they aren't until they get paid or have a means to see gains from doing so.