Do I still want this game? Absolutely. However, I rightfully no longer feel confident in the sustainability of this project. This is based on DP's performance so far, including failing to prove the delays aren't tied to financial problems. I have no clue if/when I'll see this game, so telling me or anyone else that "waiting" is the only option is a feeble-minded opinion (that I intend to ignore).

Failing to deliver a branded product to consumers is obviously a breach of contract. What DP fails to realize is the liability they put on Universal Licensing LLC by not delivering this product. Universal is on the hook here too, whether they, DP, or you like it or not. I lived 6 miles from Universal Studios (Universal Licensing LLC) when I put down my first/last deposits. I still live in California, so game-on should DP push me to go there because it's definitely the proper venue. I think I've been more than patient. DP and ARA were super gung-ho and aligned when I paid my final deposit, so I expected them to come through. They should have worked it out with ARA.

I'm not making threats or making this personal, but DP needs to wise-up...NOW. I know what strings to pluck and have no problem proving it.

highdef I am not telling you that waiting is YOUR only option, just that what is our other recourse? I mean if we go class action lawsuit does that even guarantee we get our $$$ let alone ever having the chance of getting our pins. I am in the same boat as you and for the most part I have sat on the sidelines watching the back and forth here for years. If I offended you, that was not my intention and I am just explaining how I feel on the whole matter. Like I said I have one other pin so I am not as familiar with the ins and outs of the hobby. So I am just looking to see what other options are out there for all of us since this thread seems to have become more hostile and full of best and worst case scenarios.

Sure thing, it's the buyers right to take whatever steps they can to be informed and protect their money. Just seems unlikely that XYTECH's going to talk -- ARA situation was somewhat different in that DP was blaming them for delays, and they'd seemingly had a complete breakdown in the relationship by that point. But it cannot hurt to ask.

I wrote that post while you posted yours, so no disrespect intended towards you or felt on my end. I'm glad you spoke up as it proves the frustration and uncertainty from those who haven't been vocal about it.

We've been down this path of limited (and/or no) communication from DP before, which is only adding salt to our injury. They need to understand the severity of this situation and how they've contributed to it. I understand why the passive EAs are justifying waiting it out; they selfishly want this game just as much as I do (which is why we bought the damn thing). I used to be the one that barked at the DP/TBL naysayers who trolled this thread and predicted the game would be a non-receivable disaster. Now I owe them an apology.

I work in Product Development, so I have a hard time accepting the execution, timeline of events, and lack of communication. It's one thing to be delayed because of software development, but that's already been cooked! Pinball manufacturing isn't easy, but I was under the impression this baby was ready to go in 2014/15. As I said before, you can't start ordering parts, let alone production without a purchase order. I feel like DP needs to keep it real and come clean on their financial status. In other words, quit stalling us and learn to respect AND appreciate your customers.

At this point, I think it's safer to wave to everyone on the boat from the beach.

Hi def, I will personally fly down get a meeting with the right department and accompany you to Universal Licensing. The way DP communicates with good people who entrusted their money to them is disgusting. I am sure Universal will want a good update about their license and what the people they entrusted too are doing or better said...not doing.

No need to travel Mr. Brandes:

Vince Klaseus
President, Brand Development at NBCUniversal
vince.klaseus(*at*)nbcuni.com

Tricia Chaves
Vice President - Domestic Licensing at Universal Studios
tricia.chaves(*at*)nbcuni.com

Cindy Chang
SVP, Consumer Products, NBCUniversal Brand Development
cindy.chang(*at*)nbcuni.com

Stephanie Sperber
EVP, Universal Partnerships, Licensing and Digital Licensing
stephanie.sperber(*at*)nbcuni.com

Robert Oberschelp
VP, Brand Development at NBCUniversal
robert.oberschelp(*at*)nbcuni.com

Since we can't get answers from DP, perhaps someone at Universal can tell us when we can expect to receive our games. I'm positive Universal would also agree that DP's "no refund policy" is unlawful and unenforceable, especially here in California. As many of you know, corporate licensing departments are typically made up of attorneys or at least attached at the hip to the corporate legal team.

One last thing...PayPal isn't immune either.

Thanks Hi def I will also send in Email asking for at least conference call to establish how and what Universal are capable of doing to a licensee that has taken money for their brand and not only did not deliver to the majority but are refusing to refund while they take what....salaries for 4 years Cheers mate

/ great post indeed , hope you get it to happen in the real pinball life soon

what good thing to happen after that ? games coming out faster ?
I guess like Rensh wrote earlier that DP do what they can right now and they struggle hard despite what some of us think of the situation.

"capable of doing" : like what ? an offer they can't refuse ?

"This aggression will not stand"-the Dude

DP is in a mess of their own creation. People think what they think because there's nothing else they can do without information from DP. No one here is obligated to "wait/see/hope", especially after what we've seen happen to Heighway. All that matters now is transparency, communication, and facts. Anything else is irrelevant.

"This unlawful transaction will not stand" - the Judge

I don't think anyone is under the impression that Universal will, or should, threaten DP with physical violence.

Presumably the idea is you talk to Universal and hope that they will call DP and threaten to pull the license or take other punitive steps under the licensing agreement if things don't get straightened out. Then, DP hopefully responds positively to the pressure and games start shipping (or at the least, information starts flowing again). Or, DP continues to give their customers the silent treatment, the license gets pulled, and at least everyone knows where they stand and can proceed with their lawsuits, official period of mourning, etc.

Well now, we wouldn't want to "Fcuk things up for all others involved" now would we?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/class-action-lawsuit/page/2#post-3676640

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-preorder-club/page/76#post-3660540

How silly do these posts look now?

The upvotes from people with zero skin in the game are equally silly.

Universal was involved in the review, enforcement of changes, and final say & approval of various licensed assets/collateral.

Courts have concluded that trademark licensors may be held liable for "defective" products (or those not received) under the “apparent manufacturer” doctrine, under which “one who puts out as his own product a chattel manufactured by another is subject to the same liability as though he were its manufacturer.” Burkert v. Petrol Plus of Naugatuck Inc., 216 Conn. 65, 77-78 (1990) (quoting Restatement (Second) Torts § 400).

In fact, the Massachusetts Appeals Court, addressing an issue of first impression, affirmed a $3.35M judgment, holding a non-seller trademark licensor liable under this doctrine. See Lou v. Otis Elevator Co., 77 Mass. App. Ct. 571, 581, rev. denied, 458 Mass. 1108 (2010).

The courts applying the apparent manufacturer doctrine have limited its scope to circumstances in which the trademark licensor substantially participated in the design, manufacture, marketing or distribution of the product. See id.; Burkert, 216 Conn. at 81 (holding trademark licensor not liable as apparent manufacturer).

Other courts have adopted a similar “enterprise theory” of liability, emphasizing the degree of control and integral involvement the trademark licensor exercised over the design, manufacture and sale of the product. See Hebel v. Sherman Equip., 442 N.E.2d 199, 204 (Ill. 1982); Torres v. Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. Inc., 901 F.2d 750, 751 (9th Cir. 1990) (applying Arizona law).

I don't think Universal would/could do anything but pull the license. I cannot see them doing anything but protecting their own interest. I also fail to see how they have any liability in this whatsoever. And I am pretty sure they have already been paid, so what do they care? I have never seen the angle of Universal Contact = EA's receiving machines. I see the opposite.

If you want to really f$ck with DP, maybe do it in their own house/country. This might be a good place to start:

https://netherlands-commercial-court.com/dispute-resolution.html This is a dutch attorney firm that handles commercial disputes. We could engage them to send DP a nasty-gram on our behalf for failure to deliver.

Or here - have an attorney here write a letter and contact the Netherlands Embassy.https://www.netherlandsworldwide.nl/countries/united-states

Or here - https://www.consuwijzer.nl/klacht-indienen-bij-consuwijzer This is supposed to be a Dutch Consumer Complaint organization, but I haven't figured out how to translate the page yet.

It's about getting to the truth, when DP refuses to be transparent and speak to their customers.

When I contacted Universal, they had no idea shit had gone south - but were very concerned about making things right. They got in touch with DP about it right away, and Barry called me and asked me to tell the Universal people things were going to be cool. Now - this was right after ARA's director was fired, talks were starting again and things looked like they were going to work out. So I told the Universal peeps I was satisfied with how things were going at the moment, and they were happy with that. Of course then everything went to hell...and I was going to let them know what was going on - but that's when DP refunded me....and I honored my refund by letting it go.

Now, just because I let it go, doesn't mean you guys can't make your own inquiries.

...and before you ask why I'm back and yammering about it:
1.) I'm yammering amongst hobbyists, nothing wrong with that. I'm not in contact with Universal or Dutch anymore.
2.) I have friends with full pre-payments in on this game & I'm concerned for them. I want them to get refunds or games.

Old proverb- “you can’t get blood from a stone” applies here in my judgement. After the ARA debacle I considered my money lost. I was not happy about the situation but felt this scenario was in my emotional best interest

Fast forward to “Chapter: Xytech” and I will consider this a “bluebird” if it happens.

Do I endorse the DP business and communication practices? Absolutely not.

Do I think the money is gone and that the Xytech path is the only likely solution? Yes!

Do I think litigation or involving Universal will solve anything? No! In fact, it may only impede the slim chance we have of ever getting our machines.

Do I hope DP is holding back because they want their next announcement to include a full cargo container photo? Circle back to Pinbaits dream narrative

Universal is still liable as I pointed out above. I'm willing to bet there is a non-performance clause in their licensing agreement.
No license, means no game, which is no different than the current situation. Did you buy the game based on The Big Lebowski property or did you buy it because it was a DP game? You attach Universal to a lawsuit and they WILL respond. They would start by demanding DP refund the money.

The purpose of today's posts is to state that even though DP is a foreign entity, international waters should not be an issue. This is a Small Claims issue here in California (<$10,000). I don't have to speak Dutch nor hire an attorney in The Netherlands.

You can find your same exact thought posted throughout the Magic Girl, Predator, and Aliens threads.

I’m not familiar with the details on those. Did they have a contract manufacturer come aboard at the stage Xytech did AND make the investment to redo boards and make engineering samples?

Doesn't matter! Those engineering samples could've been built to secure investment from an outside source. They may have redesigned the board(s) to cut costs as well. We don't know.
DP has not provided any new details on start of production, so as far as I'm concerned, there is no contract manufacturer right now. It also doesn't help that their CM is not versed in pinball assembly or manufacturing. When and how will game #199 ship to its rightful owner?

You also need to remember that DP didn't come clean on ARA until they were called out on it. We've pushed for more transparency, but DP refuses to respect its customers. Let's remember that DP became a business to MAKE A PROFIT. Their problems have become our problem, which is pretty lopsided if you ask me, especially when it's not us making margins on our purchases. Their contract negotiation skills should have been fine-tuned long before shipping their first game. The only reason companies switch CMs is if there's a monetary dispute, significant price increase, quality control issue, or the CM goes out of business. How the hell do you pump out 50 games and then suddenly have a dispute over payment or a price increase if you knew the deal going in from Jump Street? I have reviewed contract manufacturer agreements and these details are spelled out.

If DP wasn't in the wrong, they'd would already been in litigation with ARA. I'm sorry, but it doesn't add up.

You’re preaching to the wrong person. Go back and read my post. I very clearly did not endorse DP’s business or communication practices. I simply have taken a different path than you Re: my personal narrative.

If you take Universal to small claims court and prevail I will be simultaneously surprised and following in your footsteps. The downside risk is no cash from Universal and Propelling Universal towards an adversarial posture with DP that can get in the way of the slimmer by the day chances we have.

I do get it. You want to have this awesome game, just as I do, which is why we ordered it.
It'd be one thing if this drama started back in 2016 with the ARA fallout, but 4-5 years of waiting on a paid preorder is too long. There has to be a point where people pull the ripcord for health and sanity. Sometimes this involves rocking boats. I thought I was buying a pin, not a ticket on Space X.

DP can't blame me or anyone else for pulling out on this game. This would never be tolerated in any other industry or hobby.

What has led you to this conclusion?

Don't be a dick Iceman. I do owe you an apology for defending DP in the past, so here is that apology.

TBL preorder (resized).jpg

Seems obvious right?

No need to apologize.

Thankfully, Phil gate happened and I got out early. Congrats on however you got out.

Much appreciated. I feel like I've been playing for the Texas Longhorns football program since I preordered this game. Several consecutive years of losing.

What's your beef since it shows that you already own the game?

Believe it or not, your point came to mind earlier this afternoon. I technically do still own it until I'm refunded or in possession of the game. You are right though; TNA is looking to be the likely replacement.

It's sad but it seems like things are going south and I feel bad for all those that have real money out there. I think it's time to see if I can still get my 3 or what ever years deposit from CT back. It's unfortunate because this was a dream theme for me. I almost became part of the majority then Phil gate then I procrastinated long enough to just get a deposit. I would hope someone could buy the rights to make this pin. Unfortunately after Aliens I think I have to just understand that making a pinball game in numbers is amazingly hard and this won't happen. It really sucks to think about giving up. Maybe one day these will be made and I can get one. After two bad NIB game experiences with Stern I'm focusing more on late 70's Ballys. I wish all involved more than me the best.

CT continue to say that they've never sent DP a penny, so your deposit should definitely be refundable / transferable.

Proof of existence. That is what is needed. Documented Proof ....
Pictures of production area and parts, Engineering sample 4 being tested, documentation for contacts, etc. if they have no new news then give us more proof of what was stated in words. Sorry but post HP words are not enough.

4f791560058f8ac827b33b7f3790205b (resized).jpg

Does anyone think that taking this offline to discuss as a group (EA's) how we can proceed would be a good idea? I would much rather get as many of us together who have money invested into this putting some ideas together. Maybe it results in getting our machines/money or maybe bubkus, but I know that sitting in the shadows for the last 4 or 5 years listening to all of this has done little to ease my mind or my wallet. I think it would be wiser to try to come up with some ideas for those of us here on Pinside. Obviously there could be many who do not come onto this site, let alone thread, but does this sound reasonable? I think if we have people contacting Universal complaining (although its deserved) could possibly torpedo all of us. In fact a wide array of other things that individuals or small sectors of the EA's do on their own could kill this whole thing and we might not even know it. I appreciate those opinions of people who don't have skin in this, but we might want to proceed as a group. Any thoughts?

Just to be clear, although my opinion is that the Universal route is a dead end, I don't care what anyone does at this point.

Call their moms. Report a 162 pinball thefts to the local police in their town.

Send pizza delivery to their homes every hour until we get a newsletter.

They have acted and are acting like complete asshats.

seems like the jpop fb group was a useful tool to be able to talk without the drive-by peanut gallery.

Someone can set up a secret Facebook group and as administrator that person can control who joins or not. Non-members will not be able to read the group or even find it in a search.

You will need some kind mechanism to screen people into the group. The group I did for Jpop, I had the victims scan a page of their unique Zidware contract to me showing their name etc. Some people here we already know are involved such as Highdef and RTR whom I recommend as administrator or co-administrators. And trust me, you will need to screen people as I spent a lot of hours refusing half of Pinside pretending just to gain access.

Anyone interested can shoot me a PM for a heads up on what to expect. I know this sounds simple, and it is, but you would be surprised at some of the shit that went down during the entire process. "A lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you's".

I just recently closed the Jpop group with a brief explanation and picture you can read at this link:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jpop-update-thread%E2%80%A6%E2%80%A6%E2%80%A6%E2%80%A6%E2%80%A6mg-raza-and-aiw%E2%80%A6/page/483#post-4397636

Mr68 thanks for the suggestion. I don't use FB and really wouldn't want to join just to be in a secret group. I was thinking more along the lines of maybe getting people together via gotomeeting or skype to discuss. I know there was a list of people that was started way back in the beginning. Would any of the current EA's be interested in trying to put something together? I mean I don't mind taking some of the effort to set things up, but just don't want to be the only one trying to do everything. It would be great to hear what other EA's think without the background noise of those that want to see this fail or have no stake and just provide negativity. If you are an EA and are interested i guess PM me and we can figure the best way to proceed. I don't want to wast peoples' time, but if we constructively move forward together it might help.

Do as you wish and those could be additional tools to use in conjunction. But the FB group allows people to post and participate as their personal time permits. Gathering people internationally is problematic and time consuming for an ongoing discussion.

You are right. Just trying to get things moving in some direction than in complete flames! Thanks for the advice!

Well I guess maybe I was having a premonition of things to come and decided to speak out! So I guess we are SOL eh? Unreal. I mean I guess we had to figure this was a possibility, but now that it is here I am pretty bummed!

NSL is up and it doesn’t sound good!

I'd question how good a case ARA would have, given some of their behaviour - not just the now fired M.D. Particularly their endorsing publicly the production plan laid out by DP at the launch in early 2016, then immediately falling foul of that, including apparent demands for price rises.

If they lose, I don't know how easy it will be for DP to reclaim legal costs, which by now must be quite considerable ... and recovering them might take some time.

Xytech no doubt spent quite a lot of time and resources on this. So the though of mothballing the project until legal resolution is hardly going to thrill them.

Thus, unfortunately, ARA don't need a good case if they want to play wrecker.

So even if DP win out, it looks bad ... which I'd guess is why they finally sound downbeat, rather than optimistic or combative as they always have up until this point.

I believe yesterday's numerous posts pushed DP to finally speak up, which was my own personal goal. It obviously worked.

The ARA lawsuit didn't fall into DP's lap yesterday or sometime in the last week or so. They've supposedly already responded with a counterclaim, which proves that DP was holding out on communicating all of this to us.

Well...Happy fucken Friday.