We need someone like Kaneda Avenatti to trace and follow the money.

HP and DP might share half of the name but for the rest they are quite different. No money went to expensive unused machinery, an Opel Zafira is not a Porsche Cayenne, all rents were paid (just small office by the way), etc.

I welcome an investigation but it will show money went to salaries and development and some parts and building prototypes.

And remember, DP has had many offers for extra orders but turned them all down. No extra money was taken besides the first approx 200 EA. If they were in for money they have had plenty of chances to accept more pre order money but they didn’t. First get 300 out of the door they always said.

Had a chance to play a TBL last night. Enjoyed it

But the waiting is indeed getting harder and harder and more and more difficult to keep faith in a happy ending up

Seeing HP and JPOP mess it shows not all stories have happy endings.

They always say last part in waiting is the hardest and they are right :wall.

Whatever happens, I can only say that DP truely are honest people and are really really trying their best to get us our TBL. I am convinced of that. Would have been much easier for them just to give up after the ARA mess.

CE2713B0-71E5-4D11-BC8A-9409554EF133 (resized).jpeg

I don't understand the down votes. This pin is on life support and there are many new pins from reputable companies. If they get their shit together then get back in, but at this point, if you can get your money back, I would..

In DP defense, this seems to be true. They didn't keep taking orders and money beyond what they originally planned. I sure hope they can make it happen !

You'll have to forgive my sarcasm @Rensh. I do not believe DP is "corrupt." I only make wisecracks to keep this thread alive. After all, what else would we talk about?
People (including those without money down on the game) will continue to speculate, naysay, and make snide remarks until DP decides to communicate more to us. Imagine if they were crowdfunding via Kickstarter or Indiegogo. Nevermind the MIA game -- DP's lack of communication would have gotten them booted off those sites a long time ago.

I emailed Jaap and Barry for an update 2 days ago. Got an automated out of office response from Jaap (out til 14th) and nothing from Barry so far.

It's because his opinion of the game is irrelevant to the dire situation the pre-paid people are in. Not to mention insensitive as those people are stuck and cannot get their money out and most have tried. His follow up comment was just as ignorant and so is yours.

Dutch Pinball began taking deposits in 2013 at the height of the pre-orders madness. No one predicted this mess at the very beginning and some 50 machines have been delivered. A lot of lessons have been learned by the community with Jpop, Predator and now Heighway screwing the pre-order people.

Today, armed with that hindsight, armchair quarterbacks fly in and basically tell everyone how stupid they were and the implication is how superior they are to them.

Again, Dutch Pinball began taking deposits in 2013. I see you were a newbie to Pinside in 2013 and Frankmac joined Pinside much later in 2015.
Maybe the two of you should thank some of the people you benefit from rather than judge them from your high horse and state the obvious.

The other company in china keeps posting pictures of the slow progress. How hard can it be to keep the hope going for the guys waiting. Even Stern seems to be slowly going with parts there but keep a low profile. Try to keep the made in USA promotion going thinking 100% parts made there. Still hope for DP to survive & get games out. Hate to see all prepay companies fail!

Most likely because of the Ascension Day holiday (05/10) in The Netherlands.

Kim is right. It was a different time back then. We didn’t know what we know now, and DP seemed to be legit at the time. They had 3 gorgeous and playable prototypes, they made and eventually shipped BOP 2.0.

That was then, this is now. No one should shame pre-orderers...however, just like Heighway had his Hilton, DP has their sycophants and shills who refuse to hold them accountable and scoff at those who are asking very basic & realistic questions about this whole thing. It’s NORMAL to be skeptical and if you have money in on it, it’s NORMAL to be worried. DP hasn’t earned trust yet or given people the specific and detailed information they deserve about where this goes from here. Until they do that, it’s NORMAL to assume this conmaony will go the way of Heighway and Jpop. The burden of proof is on DP right now, and they refuse to engage and deliver much needed facts, not to mention GAMES.

Don’t rip on the victims, but keep asking questions. DP must be held accountable. They owe people truth & games.

Word. Thanks Kim.

It is not unusual for business owners to answer emails while on vacation or otherwise inconvenient. Believe me.

My mistake, I wasn't aware that things had turned around, do you have some links of the unboxing and game play vids? And hindsight is a very valuable thing. In hindsight, Predator, jpop, aliens etc appears to be a road map for what's going to happen here. Simply suggesting that a refund might be a wise move isn't armchair quarterbacking, its prudent advice. Lucky for me, I am a noob, as it appears it's the well seasoned members who are possibly out $10,000. Oh, to be young again, right Mr. 68!!

I agree 100% and know the drill when it comes to corresponding with those in different time zones. I find it sad that you (we) are forced to go "fish" for updates.

Thank you for the thoughtful, considerate reply and not going all Hilton on me. You have my sincere respect for understanding and rolling with a punch.

Only in regards to having a target range for the ladies, age 35 to 45. Otherwise, I'm not so sure I would want the trade off to be young again.

Well said. I wish I knew half the sh*t I know now vs. what I thought I knew in my 20s.

We wouldn't be playing pocket pool in this thread if refunds were an option.

I even held off paying my last payment until "start of production," which was more than 28 months ago (January 2016). This is when DP was conducting factory tours. In all fairness, things looked pretty legit from afar, even with the Phil drama.

I left the hobby in 2007 and came back in 2013 when TBL and MMR were announced. I was new to Pinside at a time where new, up-and-coming homebrew pin companies were embraced and welcomed because they provided much-needed competition to Stern.

On a side note, the hobby has come a long ways since the days of the rec.games.pinball listserv.

Not picking a fight, but if all of what you state is true, then why no refunds? Based on what you're saying, it sounds like a well-oiled machine.

Did I miss a written or verbal disclosure that WE were on the hook for delays and supplier changes? It took DP from 2013 to 2016 to go into production. It is now 2018. Again, I have no personal vendetta with DP, but how much time do you and the other "cheerleaders" believe is acceptable to wait for an $8500 item? Do you believe DP does a good job of communicating status updates to its customers (aka "investors")? Do you feel DP doesn't deserve our doubts and uncertainty? Do you feel DP would win in any form of legal action against them no matter the jurisidiction?

I sincerely respect you and value your input, which is why I'm asking you these questions.

Has CoinTaker given any response.. last real news was that CT had 2 Chinese games and were going to give their approval of the build standards.

What happened there?

CoinTaker commented?

DP were at the EAG in Jan with a TBL and Pinball Heaven is the UK distributor.

I keep my faith in DP as i know the persons in person and know that they are not conning us. They are really trying, believe me.

For sure they deserve our doubts on their business, I have them at least, as in the end no matter the cause I bought with them and not ÄRA thus it’s their responsibility. I have placed my remarks on their communication skills over the years to them. My biggest remark is here that we are customers, not investors. And after all these time we deserve more info. But what if there is nothing new to tell?

For me personally the summerholiday is like a kind of deadline. If than production still hasn’t started it will become difficult for me to keep faith. Clock is ticking. A lot of the prepaid money went to salary over like 4 years, building prototypes twice, buying parts even if ARA paid most of them, etc. That must have eaten a big hole in their bank account hence the reason why refunds are impossible, at least for all of us. At this moment they just need to jump start production and as soon as TBL comes rolling from the production line income is generated and the line continuous with that and we will get our machines in the end. But this requires a big chunk of money at the start and my guess this is what we are waiting for. The approval from an investor. And this is now the status for like 4-5 months??

You can talk about getting a bank loan but who says they haven’t tried this? How many banks do you think will loan money to a pinball factory startup? We are not talking here of a 10KUSD loan after all.

My hope is that CT and or Nitro will garantuee payment upon shipping and that Xytech will prepay the parts required, at least for a part. This in combo with an angel investor might do it. I understood from DP selling is not an issue. Plenty of orders and even now people are approaching them still direct and offering deposits and orders. Unbelievable. DP declines them by the way.

Or perhaps Deeproot needs a theme and pinball with JPOP now convicted? Who knows? They have funds apparently.

So not end of the line (yet at least) but clock is ticking. And do we have a real choice here besides sitting it out? You can go to court and than what? DP falls over and than what? You can accuse them of being bad business man but not of conning and lying to people. They will not have to go to jail if you think this gives you some satisfaction.

Above are just my PERSONAL thoughts as a fellow EA who is also struggling with this all.

Wait, whut??

</offtopic>

Not sure "convicted" is the right term? He lost a civil case against 26(?) Zidware customers, and has to pay them. But this was not a criminal case, AFAIK.

(sorry for remaining off topic)

I cannot imagine an angel investor getting involved without requiring a large controlling interest in the company and DP refused that sort of deal at least one time that we know of.

DP has no assets aside from whatever IP they have around TBL and the BOP kit. Hard assets include a few prototypes, some parts maybe, and whatever of our money is still in their bank account.

And FWIW, the whole salary for 4 years thing is bullshit. Like we all sent them to a 4 year pinball college and they didn't graduate. I get pissed every time I hear it.

What he said. (nothing to add)

SIGH

Now that Farsight’s Pinball Arcade app has lost all the B/W tables, they’re prob desperate for content. Maybe Dutch should approach Farsight & license Lebowski to them. As much as I have disdain for this whole situation, if Lebowski pinball was on Nintendo Switch for $10, I’d buy it. They’d prob sell a ton on iOS, Steam, PS4, etc....could help financial problems & put out free advertising for the game.

You’re welcome, DP.

Brilliant flipping idear./not sarcasm

Wouldn't there be licensing issues, however?

It would really just come down to Universal saying yes/no and how much it would cost. Farsight has done digital versions of a bunch of Stern licensed games so far - GB, AC/DC, Trek, LAH, Harley, Starship Troopers....and they did a lot of licensed B/W games, but some they had to do Kickstarters to afford the license.

Has anyone confirmed that DP still has the license to The big lebowski? Hard to believe it has not expired yet. Could that be what is holding everything up?

Like it or not but this is (part of) the answer to the question : where is the fucking money?

Wow. Rensh, you have been DP’s champion all along. Does this post signal exasperation - even for you? I hope not as you have been my only hope and advocate for ever Getting my machine.

On a related note of hopefully not false hope, I am wishing that DP is waiting until they can announce the first container of Chinese exports and that is the only reason for their silence. The occasional positive signals from Cointaker are the only substance for this hope.

Let’s all keep our flippers crossed on this one as there is nothing else we can do.

Thanks for explaining your viewpoint Rensh. We are definitely aligned, but I never said anything about criminal justice. This is purely a civil matter. No judge would accept DP's defense. Period. I mentioned legal action because it's the only means to recoup my $8500.

I supported and defended DP in the past, but their lack of transparency is pissing me off. We have only received two email updates from DP in the last 5.5 months.

We know that a few Pinsiders don't grab their violins until the ship is officially under water. That may work for them, but not for me. This isn't about my satisfaction; it's about preserving my money. I bought a pinball machine, not a pinball company. I could've invested my $8500 into Amazon stock and made over $36,000.

You say that DP isn't taking new deposits or payments, but yet, we have to wait until they figure out their "pyramid plan" to get our games. I'm almost 100 games back, which means I'm never going to see this game in 2018. I'm having serious doubts about 2019 too. You would think they'd want to take new orders so that they could forecast and land better pricing on parts and materials. They definitely have money issues if they're seeking financial investment, which means that their projected SOP in May or June is/was fluff. These are small quantities, so what is the holdup on parts?

I don't think they have good news to tell us. Just a hunch, but when they have the faintest whiff of something good they drop it on us as fast as they can. No news is usually bad news with these guys. And good news is frequently bullshit stalling.

Rensh, do you have any good reason to say this? I am doubting they have an investor because if they did, that would be great news to share with everyone.

How is it even possible they have a dime of deposit money left?

Are they still drawing a "salary" of any sort?

They can't possibly still have the license to produce the game right?

Angel investor? Come on. It would take a miracle.

They may have everything in hand.

But time is money. The longer it drags on, the less likely it is to end well.

Part of this mystery is: Why would Xytec agree to build this game, knowing what happened with ARA, and knowing DP doesn't have the money to fund all these games being built? I imagine Xytec agreed if they could keep most of the profits to cover their initial investment...and if that's the case, why would there need to be new investor money? The fact that we still don't have concrete answers as to what really is going on financially between all the parties makes the whole thing to be continually shady. DP owes buyers a FACT SHEET and a SPECIFIC endgame plan. "Silence because there is no news" is B.S.

Per the 04/06/18 NSNL (which was 40 days ago):

"We expect the last paperwork to be ready next week and then we have green light to start production. This means parts can be ordered, the production line is being prepared as well as all the work instructions, drawings and many other details that are needed for assembly. In the previous update we said we expect production to begin April/May, this has changed a little bit, and we now expect it to be May/June."

I interpret "paperwork" as payment to Xytech to start production.
Soooo...what's the status on that paperwork? Have parts been ordered and received?

"We will come with a new update in a few weeks, or when there’s other significant news."

My interpretation:
"We haven't paid Xytech yet, therefore, there isn't any 'significant news' right now. Yes, we've had your $8500 for quite some time now, but you shouldn't worry about it. Trust us and know that we are doing our best. Bye for now."

Also, note that "a few weeks" is 6 or more weeks in DP time.

I had a dream that I woke up on Friday and saw a new positive DP post .... "DP is proud to finally announce that the production of The Big Lebowski with our partners in Xytech Module Technologies has officially begun. How many days are left before production begins ... "Mark it zero". We are excited to share with you the photos of the initial TBL cabinets, sub-assemblies that are in process, and testing of initial machines by the Chinese Xytech production staff. We cannot state exactly when "everyone" will get their exact machine however we want to share with you our plan to both provide Early Achievers and newer customers with TBL machines. The delivery of the first 30 pinball machines will consist of a ratio of 10 machines for Achievers and 20 for new buyers. The next delivery of 50 machines will be split at a ratio of 1 and this will continue until all of the remaining Early Achievers have received their machine. We understand that the split between preorders and new buyers might create some consternation and are rewarding preorderers with a set of custom miniature Brunswick bowling balls to mod your TBL, and a set of spare TBL plastics, and custom coindoor key chain FOBs. Additionally, all new TBLs will be shipping with code update 1.0 which will include the exciting new wizard mode (Viva Las Vegas!!!) and additional updates and tweaks to the software code. This code update will also be provided to existing TBL owners when the first new games began shipping in 2 weeks from today. This has been an incredible and sometime difficult journey and the entire team wants to extend Thanks everyone involved and who ordered this game".... I can only hope that reality is somewhat close to that ... but my hope is razor thin ;-/

Please don't wake me up

We have been willing this for a while dude, it still remains a dream.

So is the dream finally dead?
Any one have Xytech contacts, since DP no longer updating?
Options for collective action for those who have lost money with DP directly?

I just contacted XYTECH through their main contact page for any updates on their end. I am skeptical whether I will get a response, but in the event I do I will post it here immediately. While I was searching for their contact information I stumbled upon this gem. I am sure many of you may have seen this already, but for those who haven't enjoy:

http://funwithbonus.com/expo-blitz-xytech-and-dutch-pinball/

Too depressed to watch that video. I just wait until newsletter Friday for my pick me up.

It would be surprising if XYTECH answers (other than to put you back in contact with DP), part of the benefit of being a contract manufacturer is not having to deal with end-users directly.

You could try small claims court. Dollar limit ranges from $2.5k-$15k depending on the state, and it should be a straightforward argument that they broke the contract, but you'll have to convince the court that it's legally proper to sue a Dutch company in whatever state you file your case, as opposed to in Dutch court. Or hire a lawyer, who can figure out if you can sue DP in the US, and whether you can bundle a bunch of claims together to spread the cost. You might reach out to @mr68, I believe he helped coordinate the group that just got a judgment against JPop and might have some thoughts on how to get started.

None of this guarantees that DP will actually pay a judgment against it, of course.

If you don't have money down on the game, then you really have no business downvoting those who do. If someone expresses their annoyance with DP and you downvote them, then put your money and faith in DP on this game. People have a right to know where their money is after all these years, especially those with large pin collections. We don't tell you what to do with your money. At least tell us why you believe DP deserves 100% confidence.

I'm glad to see others stepping up and voicing their frustrations & next steps. Perhaps DP will get the clue.

I've been in from the beginning and i'm #187 or at least that is what number I thought I was until the new business came into the picture. I honestly think at this point us EA's have no other recourse than to stick it out and hope that we get our machines. I was always interested in the pinball hobby from the outside, but I love Star Wars, so when I had an opportunity to buy a DE machine back in 2012 I took the plunge. I love it and even though it is an older game and it might not be as complex as the newer games it has served me well. So then I see all this talk about Big Lebowski, which is another favorite movie of mine and I was instantly sold. Not knowing much about the Pinball hobby and some of the other pre-order disasters, I sent DP my money and was so excited as to how cool this was going to be in my mancave. Here we are how many years later, how many e-mails later and I am almost to the point that I feel I was taken. Maybe I am naive, oh well such is life. I have been following this thread from the beginning and have run the gamut of being hopeful to flat out sick to my stomach. I am willing to continue to wait as long as it takes until that truck drops off my machine in front of my house, but if there are others that are out there that are proceeding with trying to recover their money please let me know. The last e-mail sounded pretty optimistic, but now it seems as though no news is BAD news and I just wanted to vent a bit. So to all you other EA's out there I feel your pain and I only hope that this journey that we have all been on together turns out for the best!

Well, that's how we finally got answers about the PCB-delay lie...a few of us started to email ARA - and we got responses that were different than the DP story.

Since DP has gone silent, it's the right of anyone with money in on this project to contact Xytech and/or Unviersal Studios licensing division to get information.