Did no one ask about the fucking apron or when production is to begin or if film clips and call outs have been approved or when we can expect to see the game shipping?

Pinsider Skins covered some of those in this thread
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/from-expo-no-licensed-songs

They would have needed to get that anyway. Songs would be a separate IP holder from the get-go. Licensing the film assets would have given them no automatic rights to the music.

Plus, if it were the case that the music had to be tied to the clip then it would only stand to reason that the clips would have been approved ages ago. Which is not the case, because, as I understand it, DP is still awaiting final app from the IP holder.

If we can use pin browser on TBL it will solve this music issue. Can someone find Jaap at expo and ask him if the code will be open source?

As a software engineer, I have to correct the open source stuff throwing out there..we do not need open source to change the audio.. Stern isn't open source and you can change the audio just fine. They just need to leave the door open to change out the assets.. No encryption, etc.

Sorry . If you ask them about open source, the answer will be no. But asking them about whether they are going to make it hard to change the music assets or not is a valid question.

10-4

If they want to sell pinball machines they better not make it hard to replace.

I guess they just decided it was easier/cheaper to dump crappy music in there and let the community fix it the right way

Yeah the apron question was asked...they said they're going to combine the stars and cards so no one is happy

Why is pinball getting such a hard time with those licenses???

Games, movies, commercials etc etc can do whatever they like. But pinball is allowed to do nothing!

Crap! Such a gamebreaker for this one.

This is disappointing because they've been demoing the game and marketing with the actual music. It was one of their selling points and one of the reasons I was interested in it. To take it away near the final hour seems a little shady imho. It would have been better to leave them out of the prototype until it was licensing confirmed...

If they don't make the sound files unmoddable, then it's cool by me.

If they however lock down the files via encryption, then I want out.

I think they should give an option on the aprons. Changing it out for 'like 40 people" is weak sauce.

I think all pinball companies to need make a license holder clear what their plans are before they are buying the rights.

If to much is not allowed, just forget about that theme, and licenseholder. And move on to the next one.

Cause it getting ridiculous.

A pinball where you are not allowed to shoot a dragon the main toy, a pinball movie themed, cant use the music.. A game of thrones pin that looks nothing like game of thrones, etc etc.

Does it come with coin mechs?

36 emails said they didnt want them, so no.

Why, Why, Why cant any preorder go as planned????

Wow...another let down by a pinball company, I really have to find another hobby to offset this one. can't take too much more of this shit. We need a scapegoat to bash here. I nominate Jpop, it's all his fault..wait Kevin too, f-it also Gary. A pox on all their houses.

Is anybody working on a Hitler reacts video yet?

Nihilists are on it

I know what's coming for Stern in 2016 and I'm saving my pinball purchases for them now, and Spooky's Rob Zombie.

So is this thread going to become the Big Lebowski cancelled pre-orders club?

I pre-ordered when the machine was first announced, and at that point I did not expect the licensed music. Therefore, while I'm certainly disappointed given that DP did repeatedly state that it would be included, it is not a deal breaker for me and to be honest always did sound slightly too good to be true.

What I'm very disappointed by is the lack of any significant update on the software/code. We haven't really seen anything new on TBL since this time last year, and from a short gameplay video taken yesterday and posted in another thread it seems like the code running on the prototypes has hardly changed at all. How is this even possible when they have had twelve months to work on it?

Does anyone think we'll receive a NSNL today?

I think I have just hit a wall on this. I need to email Barry and find a way out. Either refund, sell spot or Amex fighting for me.
Hopefully they will make it easy .

Edit: game is still the best thing at expo. But after weening my way off having to have every game on the first day and passing on ordering Kiss and GOT out of gate I now can't stand waiting and pre ordering. Still a pin buyer just not good at waiting . I would rather pay 500 more from cointaker when it's in stock .

From day 1, there's just never been a real reason to pre-order TBL. They are going to make as many as people will buy. And why not just order once they start shipping? Do people really want the rug that bad? They will also sell you the rug separately.

It is the best thing at Expo, by far. Their presentation left me wondering one thing: why would they stop taking pre-orders? They said it's because they had more than enough money to make the game. But how are they paying themselves then? How can you have a company operate for a year, 4 employees, pay parts suppliers without any money coming in? The only conclusion I can draw is that they stopped taking money because they knew the delays would be long and they just didn't want to deal with tons of angry customers. Makes sense.

In the end this pin will be amazing. But what a difference a year makes. 2015 has been the year nobody delivered what they said they would. Hobbit didn't ship. GOT underwhelmed, and TBL never went into production. Hopefully 2016 makes up for all of this.

We need to have a question and answer NSNL like what was done a half a year ago or so. Just answer the buyers questions honestly. Just tell us what we are getting. And some sort of realistic timeframe.

I'm ready for this ride to be done. And with all due respect, I know I don't have it near as bad as the Skit B / Zidware guys. At least yet.

Don't even imply this could go the way of Skit B / Zidware man. They have a license and have built the pin!

They just kept saying they are "close". When pressed for a ballpark, they wouldn't give it. Not the answer anyone wants to hear, but hang in there. It's worth it. Hypothetically, if you got your money back, what would you even buy? GOT is leagues below this title and Hobbit isn't shipping either. TBL is gonna be the must have pin of 2016.

Given the previously promised game features that will no longer be delivered, I'm sorry to say that I think "NBSNL"is more appropriate.

After looking forward to DP's presentation and exhibit at Expo for so long, I'm really disappointed with the lack and type of "new shit" that has come forth at the show about TBL so far. Hopefully, that will change for the better when more detailed info is provided from Pinball News and various podcasters. If not, I sure hope someone asks some hard questions of DP at the Dutch Pinball Open next month.

I don't want a refund, but as a customer who has thousands tied up in this product I think DP owe us a degree of transparency at this point. As many others have commented, they must have known about the issue with the licensed music for a while, yet I found out from a post on here by someone who attended their seminar - shouldn't they have contacted their customers directly to inform them of a change of this nature?

The problem with DP is that their communication used to be excellent (prior to Phil departing) and it's now exceptionally poor. This time last year I wouldn't have thought twice about pre-ordering another DP machine because I was enjoying the ride - now I can't imagine myself doing so as it's become an exercise in frustration. It's a shame is all.

I hear you. I'd feel the same way as you too. They did keep saying they were sending out a Friday newsletter to all buyers. Sounds like that has been few and far between.

During their talk yesterday, they kept using the same excuse: "we're Dutch". The Dutch don't do this and the Dutch don't know that and the Dutch tell it like it is. For buyers, none of this is cute. You took people's money, tell them exactly what the hold up is and what to expect. Look if you give a date and can't make it, just be honest about why. I think what annoys people more than anything is the wait, the silence and the feeling that they are on their own.

You are posting the question and the answer in the same post.

Question:

Answer:

"Make the game" obviously covers operating for a year, paying employees and suppliers.

Because every single additional pre-orderer means one more person that is entitled to machine gun them with emails about progress, one more stakeholder that has the legit claim to demand updates, participate in criticism, that they need to deal with and that they are obliged to.
There is simply no reason for them to take more preorders, enough money is already collected and every additional pre-orderer means unnecessary potential for trouble. It's a risk and knowingly taking unnecessary risk is a stupid decision in a business environment.

The Pinball Circus and Silver Castle guys are doing it the right way: They are not obliged to any (or just a handful of) pinheads, which by the way seems to drive some pinsiders so crazy that they are even trying to construct some kind of promise of being able to get a game out of things the PC guys never said in the past.
Have you noticed how relaxed they are able to react to critics and "claims" aimed at them?

You guys don't quite understand. They still have the music licenses. They just can't drop the master track into the game like an MP3 player a la Metallica or ACDC. They can recompose the songs which IMO can only benefit the game as they can be tailored to gameplay with transitions and such. Think WOZ - it doesn't have the master tracks but you hear yellow brick road, over the rainbow etc - but recomposed by Chris Granner.

We get it Greg, but the recomposition of the Santana track SUCKS. Woz needed to be recomposed and nobody bought it because of what Granner did, we bought in spite of the music.

Original tracks make a HUGE difference. To do what they did to Santana is a JOKE and an abortion of music!

It's been another year now, without much getting done it appears.

They have collected all the $$$ from people.

Given Philgate and the $$$ issues he raised with Barry, I think its a fair question to raise, do they have the funds left to actually build all the games?

The communication sucks and while I'd be worried about the music the main thing I'd want to know is WHEN and HOW MUCH is left to finish these games.

We all know a few prototypes can get built. What's left?

Mr. Blindfaith Jpopper is now a Lewboski skeptic? GTFO of here....

Stop being stupid. They did nothing to Santana. Someone posted a YouTube video that has nothing to do with the game.

Not true. When I heard Chris Granner's shooter lane composition tying together a few of the main WOZ songs, I was sold. He has created some of my favorite pinball sound packages and his original arrangements and the way they are tied into the game play on WOZ are a HUGE value add to me.

The thing with TBL is you knew what you were getting with the original music. Now, that aspect of the game and who will be doing the composing are unknown, we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.

Fuck the license, lets go back to original themes. If these dickheads want to make it difficult then give them nothing. Except for Aliens ofcourse. Hope you all get want you want by the way.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/expo-tbl-extended-gameplay-video

Watching it for a while, is anyone planning on mirrored pinblades or anything?

Wondering if you took the border of the rug (the one that comes with pre orders) and got someone to do pingraphics if it would look good or not

At Pinball Life yesterday, confirmed with DP programmer that music files, while not released with the master tracks, would NOT be encrypted/locked down.

That is, theoretically, someone could probably find a way to painlessly change the music files to their liking (without official dp support).

This will happen and make this whole music fiasco a moot point. They almost should have said this with a wink and a nod.

And we have some incredibly talented Pinsiders here who can figure out anything. Great news.

Not encrypted sound files is very good news. Thanks for the info

Who's blind faith now? That's the point. You should know better. I wish I had listened to you back then. But I got my refund last year so after Phil, I became a "skeptic", not just now. Still "hopeful".

But hey, everybody has seen the roadkill, its not like people aren't properly warned now.

I would focus on the $$$ and delivery dates, not rationalizing the lack of communication and music, been there, done that.

Not to change the topic here or anything but does anyone know if the call outs will have family and nsfw settings? Like Goodman saying"this is what happens...." Or Bunny saying her famous" I'll suck your ........" ?

All that matters now is a shipping date.

If they can't provide that because they don't have confidence in it, then give us a date by which they can announce a ship date with real confidence.

If they can't even do that, then the game is nowhere near shipping.

Yes, there is a family mode.. It will bleep out curse words (we asked about using the funny TV alternatives but the said unfortunately no). Either way, I think if I have people with kids over (I don't have any), TBL will probably be left off.

My understanding is that it was previously announced a while back that there would be a family friendly mode. Also since then, playfield art has removed cannabis image.

Agree. The claims that at DPO there will be several production protos will be a good indicator as well (if they make it)

This part of the game is getting old.

I just want this thing in my house so we can get to the part where we're arguing about it's place in the top 10.

Jaap said that they got the first production model from the factory - and could have shipped them - but they were shit and had to make changes. The new production models will be at DPO in Nov. so - even though he wouldn't give us a date (seems to be the new MO for anyone but Stern) - it's clearly "close".

There's nothing blind about my faith. I own BOP 2.0. They've shipped me an awesome functional and supported product. I've played the Lebowski protos and seen the pics of the production model. Focus on $$$? Why? This isn't an egomaniac in a garage or a meth head in a basement - these are guys who have produced. "Pinball is hard" so yes there are delays and issues, but these guys have it together. All the evidence is clear...no one is blind.

I hadn't heard that. That's good context. Thanks for sharing.